So say I have a +1 furyborn greataxe. I'm a 12th level caster and I cast greater magic weapon on the greataxe. By all accounts, said greataxe is a +3 furyborn greataxe now (the +3 enhancement bonus from GMW overriding the inherent +1 bonus of the axe).
If I attack with the furyborn greataxe and hit what is the enhancement bonus of my weapon?
For reference:
A fury-born weapon draws power from the anger and frustration the wielder feels when battling foes that refuse to die. Each time the wielder damages an opponent with the weapon, its enhancement bonus increases by +1 when making attacks against that opponent (maximum total enhancement bonus of +5). This extra enhancement bonus goes away if the opponent dies, the wielder uses the weapon to attack a different creature, or 1 hour passes. Only melee weapons can have the fury-born ability.
It becomes a +4 weapon, if I am not mistaken? (of course I might be which is why I'm asking the question).
Similar question for a dueling weapon:
This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon.
A dueling weapon bears magical enhancements that makes it particularly effective at performing certain combat maneuvers. When a dueling weapon is used to perform a combat maneuver that utilizes the weapon only (see below), it grants a luck bonus equal to twice its enhancement bonus on the CMB check made to carry out the maneuver. The dueling weapon also grants this same luck bonus to the wielder’s CMD score against these types of combat maneuvers. These combat maneuvers include disarm and trip maneuvers, but not bull rush, grapple, or overrun maneuvers. If you’re using the additional combat maneuvers in the Advanced Player’s Guide, this also includes any dirty trick maneuvers that utilize the weapon, as well as reposition combat maneuvers, but not drag or steal combat maneuvers. Note that this luck bonus stacks with the weapon’s enhancement bonus, which in and of itself adds to CMB checks normally.
So if I cast GMW on a +1 dueling rapier, which becomes a +3 dueling rapier, the luck bonus to maneuvers is now +6 instead of +2, correct?
Just trying to understand how enhancements not from the weapon itself and magical properties interact for my maneuver focused monk.
prototype00
your understanding is correct.
==Aelryinth
So presumably it would work the same with a +0 dueling amulet of mighty fists and Greater magic fang cast on the unarmed strikes?
I.e. the enhancement bonus would be +3 and the bonus to maneuvers would be +6?
Also, if I had a +0 furyborn amulet of mighty fists and I attacked with both unarmed strikes and natural attacks, would all the attacks I hit with (irregardless of whether it was the unarmed strikes or natural attacks) add to the enhancement bonus of the amulet?
What if I had enchanted my unarmed strikes with greater magic weapon before hand but not my natural attacks, what would be the effect of the furyborn amulet of might fists on the
A: Unarmed strikes (assume +3 enhancement)
B: Natural attacks (+0 enhancement)
Sorry to ask so many questions, just playing around with some different possibilities.
prototype00
The amulet would have to be enchanted to at least +1 to allow the other effects, just like any weapon. It doesn't check your fists, it checks the device. So, no +0.
Otherwise, it would work as normal. So, yes, you'd get the Duelling bonus, and Furyborn makes no distinction between UA and Nat attacks, only those that hit or do not. One of the reasons the Amulet is slightly overpriced is because it affects both Nat Attacks AND UA.
Also, I believe you'd need Greater Magic Fang to get all your Unarmed Strikes covered with one spell, I'm not sure. UA requires both hands to be covered to be fully effective.
==Aelryinth
The amulet would have to be enchanted to at least +1 to allow the other effects, just like any weapon. It doesn't check your fists, it checks the device. So, no +0.
Otherwise, it would work as normal. So, yes, you'd get the Duelling bonus, and Furyborn makes no distinction between UA and Nat attacks, only those that hit or do not. One of the reasons the Amulet is slightly overpriced is because it affects both Nat Attacks AND UA.
Also, I believe you'd need Greater Magic Fang to get all your Unarmed Strikes covered with one spell, I'm not sure. UA requires both hands to be covered to be fully effective.
==Aelryinth
Actually, the amulet of mighty fists doesn't need to be enchanted to +1 before you add weapon properties (another reason that they give as to why it is so expensive). For example you can have an agile, dueling, acidic amulet of mighty fists (no enhancement bonus) if you want.
So in the case that I mentioned, greater magic fang can provide the actual enhancement bonus that is acted upon by the amulet of mighty fist weapon properties (fury born and dueling)? Excellent.
prototype00
prototype00
I disagree with that, the weapons enhancement would go to +2, which would be over written by the enhancement bonus of the GMW as it is the higher of the two. The enhancement bonus of the actual weapon ("its enhancement" not the GMW enhancement) increases. You have two identically named bonuses from two sources, they are calculated seperately (weapon and spell) and then the magical stacking rules come into play. The weapons own abilities would check 'its' enhancement for abilities it possesses for effects. When you swing the weapon if 'its' enhancement bonus is less than what the spell provides you would get the +3 enhancement to hit and damage but the abilities that trigger off the weapons bonus wouldn't have anything to do with the spell.
You are using two sources, they are not interchangeable.
A +1 furyborn weapon with GMW(+3) has two enhancement bonuses. The first time you hit it becomes a +1(+1) furyborn with GMW(+3), assuming you hit a second time you get a +1(+2) furyborn weapon with GMW(+3). At this point they are equal, the next successful strike would push the weapons enhancement to +4(+1+3) which now overrides the GMW(+3) so the following attack would get +4 on the roll.
The weapon checks 'its' own enhancement bonus for abilities, the spell is just a temporary effect and would have no bearing on the crafted abilities of the weapon.
I disagree with that, the weapons enhancement would go to +2, which would be over written by the enhancement bonus of the GMW as it is the higher of the two. The enhancement bonus of the actual weapon ("its enhancement" not the GMW enhancement) increases. You have two identically named bonuses from two sources, they are calculated seperately (weapon and spell) and then the magical stacking rules come into play. The weapons own abilities would check 'its' enhancement for abilities it possesses for effects. When you swing the weapon if 'its' enhancement bonus is less than what the spell provides you would get the +3 enhancement to hit and damage but the abilities that trigger off the weapons bonus wouldn't have anything to do with the spell.
You are using two sources, they are not interchangeable.
A +1 furyborn weapon with GMW(+3) has two enhancement bonuses. The first time you hit it becomes a +1(+1) furyborn with GMW(+3), assuming you hit a second time you get a +1(+2) furyborn weapon with GMW(+3). At this point they are equal, the next successful strike would push the weapons enhancement to +4(+1+3) which now overrides the GMW(+3) so the following attack would get +4 on the roll.
The weapon checks 'its' own enhancement bonus for abilities, the spell is just a temporary effect and would have no bearing on the crafted abilities of the weapon.
But does it say anywhere in the rules that the enhancement bonus granted by greater magic fang/weapon is not the same as the enhancement granted by the weapon itself, and isn't affected by the weapon properties?
Of course I agree that two sources of enhancement should not stack and you should take the higher, but once that is determined is that particular enhancement (whether from the native weapon enhancement or via a spell) not compatible with weapon properties?
It seems the more straightforward interpretation to me. Rather than this business of going back and forth between the weapon and spell based enhancements.
prototype00
So as usual it ends up as one for and one against, *sigh*. I might bring this up with JJ to see what he thinks.
prototype00
Magical stacking rules would seem to indicate the two are not the same, you have one source and then a spell provides a second source. You have to keep track of them for for various circumstances (DR, dispels, etc.), and the one source has abilities based on 'its' own bonuses. Yes you get +3 to hit and damage, but that isn't the same as the weapon having an actual +3 enhancement.
Yar!
I'm going to throw in my hat and agree with Skylancer4. Enhancement bonus' to a specific item coming from different sources do not stack.
Item in question: The weapon
Source one: The weapons properties
Source two: a spell cast on the weapon
Also: Your +0 Furyborn Amulet of Mighty Fists IS a legal item.
An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.
Yes, this means having the Furyborn property and casting Greater Magic Weapon on the said weapon makes things complicated. This is not a simple game. When bonuses do NOT stack (as is the case in this game), you must keep track of them all separately.
Furyborn only increases the Enhancement bonus of the weapon itself that has this property, not to any Enhancement bonus' applied to it from an outside source (the spell Greater Magic Weapon).
~P
EDIT: relevant Rules quotes and links:
A fury-born weapon draws power from the anger and frustration the wielder feels when battling foes that refuse to die. Each time the wielder damages an opponent with the weapon, its enhancement bonus increases by +1 when making attacks against that opponent (maximum total enhancement bonus of +5). This extra enhancement bonus goes away if the opponent dies, the wielder uses the weapon to attack a different creature, or 1 hour passes. Only melee weapons can have the fury-born ability.
Spell Effects and stacking bonuses
... Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
...
Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
A magic weapon is enhanced to strike more truly and deliver more damage. Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses...
~P
Yar.
But does it say anywhere in the rules that the enhancement bonus granted by greater magic fang/weapon is not the same as the enhancement granted by the weapon itself, and isn't affected by the weapon properties?
Of course I agree that two sources of enhancement should not stack and you should take the higher, but once that is determined is that particular enhancement (whether from the native weapon enhancement or via a spell) not compatible with weapon properties?
It seems the more straightforward interpretation to me. Rather than this business of going back and forth between the weapon and spell based enhancements....
It is presumed via the language and exceptions made by the Greater Magic Weapon spell.
True Enhancement bonuses bypass damage reduction based on the number. GMW specifically says that it does NOT do this, and is thus, by inference, not a True Enhancement bonus, just a temporary effect that grants an Enhancement bonus to a weapons Attack and Damage rolls only. It even says this:
... it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls ...
Bolding is mine. It is not making it a +3 (or whatever) weapon. It is giving it an Enhancement bonus to those two specific values, which overlaps with (does not stack with) the weapons own already existing properties.
~P
Yeah, I asked JJ and he said more or less the same thing.
I think it's back to using an allying weapon and transferring the enhancement bonus to my unarmed strikes, at least those actually count as real enhancement bonuses.
prototype00
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I agree with the posters that say they don't stack, and I have another reason for why they should not. "Real" enhancement bonuses (those not from greater magic weapon) allow the weapon to ignore certain kinds of DR; the spell explicitly does not confer this effect. Fury-born does not have that exclusion, so it increases your ability to pierce DR the more you hit, as the ability increases the "real" enhancement bonus of the weapon. If it stacked with greater magic weapon you'd run into issues about what kind of DR the weapon can ignore, as part of its enhancement bonus would "count" and part would not.
Edit: ninja'ed by a pirate. Something seems off with that :)
You shouldn't have to. It's plainly stated in the rules... bonuses of the same type DO NOT STACK(yeah yeah dodge deflection and all that go away this isn't that type of quesiton). The larger one overlaps the other. Since they're both enhancement bonuses, the question answers itself.So as usual it ends up as one for and one against, *sigh*. I might bring this up with JJ to see what he thinks.
prototype00
I don't know why people keep bringing up the stacking issue. I've always maintained that they don't stack, the larger number takes precedence.
Its how the larger number interacts with weapon properties (in this case completely not at all, but that wasn't 100% clear) that I was trying to clear up.
For future posters who would like to bring up stacking again:
MY QUESTION WAS NOT ABOUT STACKING!
There.
prototype00
Yar.
I don't know why people keep bringing up the stacking issue. ... MY QUESTION WAS NOT ABOUT STACKING!
The stacking rules are being brought up because it is related to your initial question and many of your follow up questions.
So say I have a +1 furyborn greataxe. I'm a 12th level caster and I cast greater magic weapon on the greataxe. By all accounts, said greataxe is a +3 furyborn greataxe now (the +3 enhancement bonus from GMW overriding the inherent +1 bonus of the axe).
If I attack with the furyborn greataxe and hit what is the enhancement bonus of my weapon?
That right there is a stacking question.
It becomes a +4 weapon, if I am not mistaken?
That is an answer which assumes the normal stacking rules do not apply in this particular case. But because we state that the stacking rules DO apply in this instance, this answer is, in fact, incorrect.
So if I cast GMW on a +1 dueling rapier, which becomes a +3 dueling rapier, the luck bonus to maneuvers is now +6 instead of +2, correct?
This, while not specifically a "stacking" question and more a "how do weapon properties interact with changing Enhancement bonuses" question, stacking rules are partially related as they help dictate how the Enhancement bonuses of a weapon can be changed in the first place. The main part of this question, though, is not a Stacking question in and of itself. For this, it appears that it goes off the weapons real (non-enhanced Enhancement) bonus.
Also, if I had a +0 furyborn amulet of mighty fists and I attacked with both unarmed strikes and natural attacks, would all the attacks I hit with (irregardless of whether it was the unarmed strikes or natural attacks) add to the enhancement bonus of the amulet?
What if I had enchanted my unarmed strikes with greater magic weapon before hand but not my natural attacks, what would be the effect of the furyborn amulet of might fists on the
A: Unarmed strikes (assume +3 enhancement)
B: Natural attacks (+0 enhancement)
This most definitely IS a stacking question, and I can see no way to interpret it otherwise.
So presumably it would work the same with a +0 dueling amulet of mighty fists and Greater magic fang cast on the unarmed strikes?
I.e. the enhancement bonus would be +3 and the bonus to maneuvers would be +6?
This one is less about stacking, just like the previous one that was not. With the clarification that GMW gives an Enhancement Bonus to Attack and Damage rolls (and not to the weapon itself), then we can reference the stacking rules to keep track of different sources of bonuses separately and from this we can divine that the Dueling extra bonuses (which are based off the weapons enhancement bonus) are not increased, as it functions off the items enhancement bonus, not the Enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls GMW provides.
So really, you have 2 questions that are not specific stacking questions but can be interpreted as related to them, at least partially; and you have 2 questions that are definitely stacking questions / that can be answered by a more concrete use of the stacking rules. There is also very little written on how changes to an items Enhancement Bonus affects properties based on the items base Enhancement Bonus, but there IS a lot written on stacking (hence they're called "Stacking Rules")... so that is the easiest thing for people to draw upon when trying to answer your questions.
~P