Just like the subject-title asks. Why, or why not?
Depends. I could see keeping the mental stats for intelligent undead that are created from templates (vampires, ghosts), while unintelligent undead would probably lose all the bonuses and penalties.
Not everyone who's old and becomes undead is a spellcaster?
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I've always considered becoming undead to be preserving the body at the point of death, and as aging penalties represent the effects on the body to that point, I wouldn't reverse the physical penalties of aging. I wouldn't add more aging penalties either though.
Now the mental bonuses I'd probably apply, to the maximum for normal for that race, though it would depend on the race, and the form of undead that they became.
Maybe... but there will be down sides too...
Paladins, Adventuring Parties, Good Clerics, normal town's folk, etc.
Just like the subject-title asks. Why, or why not?
As I understand it, becoming undead kind of works on your body as it is. It's not a shot of youth serum, it's not a regenerative effect. It just takes you as you are and changes you to an undead. Therefore I'd say no.
There are two ways I can see it, which is why I even ask.
1 - Nothing in the rules says you stop aging when you become undead, and nothing says you become immune to the effects of aging. But then, compare Liches and Vampires. Vampires stay at whatever age they were when they're turned (the hard rules of the template don't say this, but precidence is set here with the Ancient Youth variant ability) but a Lich will continue to rot and decay until they're little more than a skeleton.
2 - But, look again at that uber-old Lich: How could it (or skeletons, etc) swing a sword or carry themselves around when all their muscles have decayed and rotted away? So clearly, it's the negative energy providing their "strength," which opens up the whole possibility that the body might still decay, but the creature isn't necessarily "affected" by it. And, by that same thought process, would that negative energy "override" the previously attained weaknesses of age?
The rules don't really get into it at all, so here we are. :)
There are two ways I can see it, which is why I even ask.
1 - Nothing in the rules says you stop aging when you become undead, and nothing says you become immune to the effects of aging. But then, compare Liches and Vampires. Vampires stay at whatever age they were when they're turned (the hard rules of the template don't say this, but precidence is set here with the Ancient Youth variant ability) but a Lich will continue to rot and decay until they're little more than a skeleton.
It's one of those unstated things that are kind of obvious but not actually stated so, I think. I mean, what happens if you carry on aging? You aren't exactly going to die again.
Some supplements used to go into this, and came up with extended age categories for undead so that ancient undead were more powerful than younger undead.
2 - But, look again at that uber-old Lich: How could it (or skeletons, etc) swing a sword or carry themselves around when all their muscles have decayed and rotted away? So clearly, it's the negative energy providing their "strength," which opens up the whole possibility that the body might still decay, but the creature isn't necessarily "affected" by it. And, by that same thought process, would that negative energy "override" the previously attained weaknesses of age?
Yes but by the same argument, why would the strength of a lich - if it is animated magically - have any relation to how physically strong it was at any age prior to lichdom? It makes sense to me that the lich is as strong as it remembers being.
The rules of life no longer apply in undeath.
I'd remove the penalties and keep the bonuses from aging.
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In Libris Mortis, it stated you were in stasis.
You never aged, and this unchanging state, was why you would run into "insane" Liches. Their insanity was just a manner of acting that no one alive would act anymore, as they are all dead.
No more age boons, or negatives, just a constant state of unliving.
Used to have that book. Was a great resource. Wish I hadn't sold.
As others have said, I would not.
You become undead, stop living, stop aging, ...
I have seen no fluff, legends, whatever that indicate you become physically young again. In fact many of the novels talk about the person that is trying to become undead hurrying to accomplish it before his body is old and decrepit.
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I think it all depends on how the individual GM wants it to go on his/her world. Maybe vampirism makes you young again, but with lichdom you slowly rot away. Maybe it's all secretly a horrible curse and you can no longer learn new things - no mental bonuses accrue, and no gaining levels, either. Maybe being undead "freezes" your physical body as it was at the time of death. There's a good flavor argument for however you want to do it, and it doesn't even have to be consistent across types of undead.
Maybe vampirism makes you young again, but with lichdom you slowly rot away. Maybe it's all secretly a horrible curse and you can no longer learn new things - no mental bonuses accrue, and no gaining levels, either.
Azalin Rex in the Ravenloft campaign setting was cursed with this flaw.
No. Undead are in the category of monsters. They are NPC's, not PC's.
Death honors life, and life is a miracle in the face of death. Let the PC's live their brief lives, and honor their gods.
Anyone who pursues undeath will no doubt face the wrath of the gods, primarily through their agents: i.e. clerics and paladins.
BUT...for those who suffer the effects of aging ("Oh, no! I've lost a couple of pluses from my already incredible attributes!"), let them use their Leadership feat to lead their men into battle. Let them use their wizards to bolster their strength and endurance. Let them give wise council to their sons and daughters to carry on the fight as they enter their twilight years. Let them leave a legacy.
From a gaming perspective, a PC's twilight years should be spent more like Game of Thrones or The Riftwar Saga; one uses their well-earned reputation, wealth, influence, friends, etc. to battle their enemies.
100% agreement with Icyshadow.
A character that becomes undead benefits from experience and is no longer held back by their anatomy. Physical frailties would fade as the taint of undeath sinks in and empowers as much as it twists.
You never hear about vampires breaking a hip or liches b!!*@ing about arthritis.
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But both the vampire and lich templates come with their own sets of bonuses reflecting the transformation into undeath from their starting form. I would apply the template directly to the creature as they were at the time of their transformation, all penalties and bonuses for age in tact and directly modified by the new template. The bonuses from the new template reflect the transformations affect on the host, so a strong young man who was just turned into a vampire will be physically stronger than an old man who was just turned, though the old man will be cannier and tougher (due to using his charisma modified by age in place of the con score they no longer have). Both will now be physically superior to most mortals.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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But both the vampire and lich templates come with their own sets of bonuses reflecting the transformation into undeath from their starting form. I would apply the template directly to the creature as they were at the time of their transformation, all penalties and bonuses for age in tact and directly modified by the new template. The bonuses from the new template reflect the transformations affect on the host, so a strong young man who was just turned into a vampire will be physically stronger than an old man who was just turned, though the old man will be cannier and tougher (due to using his charisma modified by age in place of the con score they no longer have). Both will now be vastly superior to all mortals in every way.
Fixed that for you. Undeath is the true path to enlightenment - not that I'd expect any of you fleshy mortals to understand. Serve us, and we will show you the way.
But both the vampire and lich templates come with their own sets of bonuses reflecting the transformation into undeath from their starting form. I would apply the template directly to the creature as they were at the time of their transformation, all penalties and bonuses for age in tact and directly modified by the new template. The bonuses from the new template reflect the transformations affect on the host, so a strong young man who was just turned into a vampire will be physically stronger than an old man who was just turned, though the old man will be cannier and tougher (due to using his charisma modified by age in place of the con score they no longer have). Both will now be vastly superior to all mortals in every way.Fixed that for you. Undeath is the true path to enlightenment - not that I'd expect any of you fleshy mortals to understand. Serve us, and we will show you the way.
I prefer Being a construct. More benefits without the smell or insanity.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I prefer Being a construct. More benefits without the smell or insanity.But both the vampire and lich templates come with their own sets of bonuses reflecting the transformation into undeath from their starting form. I would apply the template directly to the creature as they were at the time of their transformation, all penalties and bonuses for age in tact and directly modified by the new template. The bonuses from the new template reflect the transformations affect on the host, so a strong young man who was just turned into a vampire will be physically stronger than an old man who was just turned, though the old man will be cannier and tougher (due to using his charisma modified by age in place of the con score they no longer have). Both will now be vastly superior to all mortals in every way.Fixed that for you. Undeath is the true path to enlightenment - not that I'd expect any of you fleshy mortals to understand. Serve us, and we will show you the way.
Spoken like a true construct. Slave to a purpose, rather than a being of free will.
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No. Undead are in the category of monsters. They are NPC's, not PC's.
Like no one ever plays monsters, right?
No. Undead are in the category of monsters. They are NPC's, not PC's.Like no one ever plays monsters, right?
Right. I'm glad you and I are in agreement.
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Just like the subject-title asks. Why, or why not?As I understand it, becoming undead kind of works on your body as it is. It's not a shot of youth serum, it's not a regenerative effect. It just takes you as you are and changes you to an undead. Therefore I'd say no.
I agree with this interpretation. Becoming an undead shouldn't make your body *better* (or younger) than it was at the time of your death. It should just stop it from getting any worse.
Just like the subject-title asks. Why, or why not?As I understand it, becoming undead kind of works on your body as it is. It's not a shot of youth serum, it's not a regenerative effect. It just takes you as you are and changes you to an undead. Therefore I'd say no.I agree with this interpretation. Becoming an undead shouldn't make your body *better* (or younger) than it was at the time of your death. It should just stop it from getting any worse.
Not better, per se, but you no longer feel the pain of age so it doesn't bother you. Like running at 50 doesn't feel like running at 20. It's just that the pain of running at 50 is no longer an issue. The wear and tear is still present, so you may want to think about maintainance.
Right. I'm glad you and I are in agreement.No. Undead are in the category of monsters. They are NPC's, not PC's.Like no one ever plays monsters, right?
I still need to get around to running my "everyone dies in the first session, spend the rest of the story as undead versions of your character" campaign.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I still need to get around to running my "everyone dies in the first session, spend the rest of the story as undead versions of your character" campaign.Right. I'm glad you and I are in agreement.No. Undead are in the category of monsters. They are NPC's, not PC's.Like no one ever plays monsters, right?
Check out the Ghostwalk Campaign Setting for 3.5 for this very topic...
I've had that recommended a couple of times, but always ended up forgetting about it.
I have no problem with an undead creature ignoring aging penalties but keeping the aging bonuses. It is an issue for my NPCs rather than PCs since no PC will play an undead creature in my campaigns.
- Gauss
Not better, per se, but you no longer feel the pain of age so it doesn't bother you. Like running at 50 doesn't feel like running at 20. It's just that the pain of running at 50 is no longer an issue. The wear and tear is still present, so you may want to think about maintainance.Just like the subject-title asks. Why, or why not?As I understand it, becoming undead kind of works on your body as it is. It's not a shot of youth serum, it's not a regenerative effect. It just takes you as you are and changes you to an undead. Therefore I'd say no.I agree with this interpretation. Becoming an undead shouldn't make your body *better* (or younger) than it was at the time of your death. It should just stop it from getting any worse.
Don't you? Problem is that nothing definitive is said. Vampires get a bonus to their physical stats for being vampires, so I would assume this includes any changes for 'rejuvination'. The template doesn't say it changes anything else, so I am guessing it doesn't.
I would say that you remain forever in whatever age category you were in when you became undead, since you are no longer aging and there is no mention in any template description of undoing age related changes to ability scores.
In any game I might run, you would continue to suffer any aging penalties (and gain any bonuses) that you possessed on transformation, but would never gain any more of either.
I have no problem with an undead creature ignoring aging penalties but keeping the aging bonuses. It is an issue for my NPCs rather than PCs since no PC will play an undead creature in my campaigns.
Seconded.
Unless I am running an undead campaign, or a campaign where the characters are destined to become undead anyway.
In which case I would halt the aging process to the physical stats (keeping any age effect already present) and continue mental maturation.
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I really don't see the gaining, or removing of age penalties.
You are not living, you're unliving, and the rules of the living no longer apply to you.
You've stopped at the place you were, when you became undead, and you simply stop progressing as a living creature.
You do become reborn, but unborn.
Only those that must feed the negative energy that sustain them, and those fueled by weak amount of negative energy can decay.
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as per the PRD
Undead are immune to damage or penalties to their physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution)
so no aging... *penalties*
Undead immune to physical stat penalties. Ergo. Aging penalties are bye-bye