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I'm currently running the Serpent's Skull AP and having some trouble with one of the character builds. Even the player confesses that the character build is over-powered.
The core of the issue is that the character easily flips combat roles and does all of them really well. He's stealing the show and the party relies on him way too much. He can heal like a cleric, he can wear even heavy armor (he's not wearing the best he can get...yet), he can front-line fight and beats the crap out of things pretty well, and he can even fill a wizard's shoes with all his fire spells and abilities. he can even bloody well fly. Lol. His stats are below:
Rin
Male Gnome Oracle 7
NG Small Humanoid (gnome)
Init +3; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 16 (+5 armor, +2 Dex, +1 size)
hp 66 (7d8+21)
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +7
Defensive Abilities Defensive Training; Resist Tongues (Ignan, Celestial)
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee Dagger +7 (1d3+1/19-20/x2) and Dino Stick +7 (1d4+1/x2)
Ranged Light crossbow +8 (1d6/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Fire Breath (15' cone, 8d4) (2/day) (DC 18), Heat Aura (10', 4d4) (2/day) (DC 18), Touch of Flame (1d6+4) (8/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Dancing Lights (1/day), Flare (1/day), Light (At will), Prestidigitation (1/day), Produce Flame (1/day)
Oracle Spells Known (CL 7, +7 melee touch, +8 ranged touch):
3 (5/day) Cure Serious Wounds (DC 18), Searing Light, Fireball (DC 18), Daylight
2 (7/day) Restoration, Lesser (DC 17), Consecrate, Resist Energy (DC 17), Make Whole, Cure Moderate Wounds (DC 17)
1 (8/day) Shield of Faith (DC 16), Bless, Inflict Light Wounds (DC 16), Burning Hands (DC 16), Obscuring Mist, Cure Light Wounds (DC 16), Sun Metal (DC 16)
0 (at will) Resistance (DC 15), Read Magic, Detect Poison, Purify Food and Drink (DC 15), Create Water, Detect Magic, Light
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Statistics
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Str 13, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 21
Base Atk +5; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Extra Revelation, Extra Revelation, Nimble Moves, Warrior Priest
Traits Ease of Faith, Keeper of the Veil (Bluff)
Skills Acrobatics +6, Bluff +11, Climb +4, Craft (armor) +5, Craft (weapons) +5, Diplomacy +10, Disguise +6, Escape Artist -1, Fly +7, Heal +6, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (geography) +5, Knowledge (history) +7, Knowledge (local) +4, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (planes) +7, Knowledge (religion) +7, Linguistics +4, Perception +10, Ride +0, Sense Motive +8, Spellcraft +9, Stealth +7, Survival +4, Swim +1, Use Magic Device +6
Languages Aklo, Aquan, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Gnome, Ignan, Sylvan
SQ Hatred +1, Wayfinder, standard (empty)
Combat Gear +1 Lamellar (leather) armor, +1 Mithral Chain shirt, Crossbow bolts (30), Dagger, Dino Stick, Light crossbow; Other Gear Alchemist's fire (4), Alchemist's kindness (3), Backpack, masterwork (empty), Bedroll, Belt pouch (empty), Belt pouch (empty), Chalk (2), Crowbar, Everburning torch, Gems, Glowing ink, Ink, black, Ink, colored, Inkpen, Mirror (2), Spell component pouch, Sunrod (4), Trail Bar x8, Waterproof bag (empty), Waterproof bag (empty), Waterskin, Wayfinder, standard (empty), Wyvern poison
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Special Abilities
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Dancing Lights (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Dancing Lights once per day.
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Fire Breath (15' cone, 8d4) (2/day) (DC 18) (Su) 15' cone of flame deals 8d4 fire damage, Ref Half.
Flare (Pyromaniac) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Flare once per day.
Hatred +1 Gain a bonus to attack vs goblinoid/reptilian humanoids.
Heat Aura (10', 4d4) (2/day) (DC 18) (Su) Heat aura deals 4d4 fire damage to all creatures within 10', Ref Half. You gain 20% concealment until your next turn.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Nimble Moves Move through 5' of difficult terrain/round as if it was normal terrain.
Prestidigitation (Pyromaniac) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Prestidigitation once per day.
Produce Flame (Pyromaniac) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Produce Flame once per day.
Tongues (Ignan, Celestial) You can only understand and speak two languages in combat.
Touch of Flame (1d6+4) (8/day) (Su) Melee touch attack deals 1d6+4 Fire damage.
Warrior Priest +1 bonus to initiative and +2 on concentration checks when casting defensively
Wayfinder, standard (empty) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250 gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
I'm having some trouble deciding how to rectify the matter without resorting to plot trickery (i.e. having a demon appear since he's really good with flame). I've dealt with imbalances in D&D 3.5, but nothing as all encompassing as this. Suggestions?
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Your oracle is not a half elf, how can he be OP?
How did you do stat generation? Because by my math, that gnome has a 56 Point Buy, which could go a long way towards explaining why he seems really powerful. Especially if everybody else has a more reasonable statline and the Gnome is only one with that much to play with.
How did you do stat generation? Because by my math, that gnome has a 56 Point Buy, which could go a long way towards explaining why he seems really powerful. Especially if everybody else has a more reasonable statline and the Gnome is only one with that much to play with.
Haha, that's a good point- those stats are absurd!
Yeah, okay, I'm kinda confused. How is this gnome OP? Its stats are waaaay outta wack, but there doesn't seem to be much cause for concern. It's got an AC of 18 and mediocre saves. HP is a bit high from the ridiculous stats, but still fairly squishy.
I'm thinking that maybe the character isn't OP at all, but rather syncing too well with your particular playstyle as a DM. Flame oracles function best as blasters, and blasters function best when DMs throw lots of lower-HP monsters in nearby swarms.
This oracle would struggle more if you used enemies with more HP, fewer enemies, or used "mixing tactics" and got the enemies within the ranks of your party. This can be as simple as having an enemy bee-line for a caster or flanking the melee; neither of which are unusual for pack-mentality or intelligent creatures. How can you successfully cast an area spell when you're going to hit the healer?
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Even with those absurd stats, I'm having trouble figuring out what makes this character overpowered.
He's offensively pretty weak except for throwing fireballs, but that is not going to help him "play many roles", as you say he can. He has a really low AC for that level, and his melee stats are pretty much what I'd expect from a gnome.
So he can heal like a cleric (that's something oracles are supposed to do) and throw fireballs. How is he 'beating the crap' out of things in melee with a dagger doing 1d3+1? What I see is a fire-based one-trick-pony with some healing ability and the flame wing revelation. If there are spellcasters in the AP, have them prepare protection from energy and see if he's still effective.
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Yeah, okay, I'm kinda confused. How is this gnome OP? Its stats are waaaay outta wack, but there doesn't seem to be much cause for concern. It's got an AC of 18 and mediocre saves. HP is a bit high from the ridiculous stats, but still fairly squishy.
I'm thinking that maybe the character isn't OP at all, but rather syncing too well with your particular playstyle as a DM. Flame oracles function best as blasters, and blasters function best when DMs throw lots of lower-HP monsters in nearby swarms.
This oracle would struggle more if you used enemies with more HP, fewer enemies, or used "mixing tactics" and got the enemies within the ranks of your party. This can be as simple as having an enemy bee-line for a caster or flanking the melee; neither of which are unusual for pack-mentality or intelligent creatures. How can you successfully cast an area spell when you're going to hit the healer?
Normally I would agree, but I think part of the trouble is I'm sort of stuck running what's in the AP for enemies, not that I haven't made modifications, mind you. Actually that's exactly what's happening. I think I'm going to have to kick it up a notch. The trouble is the other characters won't be able to handle what the oracle can handle.
the problem at this sort of level is baddies struggle with flying opponents quite often, especially in the mostly outdoor SerSku.
I have a level 7 witch in that and flying is most helpful
this guys AC is terrible. My gnome oracle 1 in Carrion Crown started off with 20, 21?, and my 1/2e lvl 7 one in PFS is around high 20's pre-buff i think.
He should deff have swapped in warden of nature
oracles can rapidly be good arcane-like
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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How did you do stat generation? Because by my math, that gnome has a 56 Point Buy, which could go a long way towards explaining why he seems really powerful. Especially if everybody else has a more reasonable statline and the Gnome is only one with that much to play with.
I never use point buy. He started with these stats:
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 18
Gnome gets: +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength
4th level buy: +1 Constitution
No, I didn't see him roll either. I generally go with the honor system since anyone that would b!**&$@& stats to "win" a roleplaying game is a dolt anyway. Lol.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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the problem at this sort of level is baddies struggle with flying opponents quite often, especially in the mostly outdoor SerSku.
I have a level 7 witch in that and flying is most helpfulthis guys AC is terrible. My gnome oracle 1 in Carrion Crown started off with 20, 21?, and my 1/2e lvl 7 one in PFS is around high 20's pre-buff i think.
He should deff have swapped in warden of natureoracles can rapidly be good arcane-like
His AC is terrible because I actually managed to rid him of his good magical armor during a failed Swim.
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Okay I'm satisfied that the class is fine and not over-powered. I think the real issue is that he's operating above the other characters in the party who have a different build philosophy. Their stats also don't look ridiculous. So, I think what I need instead is some good counter to the oracle without killing the rest of the party.
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Okay I'm satisfied that the class is fine and not over-powered. I think the real issue is that he's operating above the other characters in the party who have a different build philosophy. Their stats also don't look ridiculous. So, I think what I need instead is some good counter to the oracle without killing the rest of the party.
That's been my experience with rolled stats. The people who rolled well drive the campaign, and everyone else just sits back and watches them roll dice.
EDIT: Also, what on earth is a Dino Stick? Personally, I'm hoping more "deinonychus handling tool" and less "stick of dynamite."
How did you do stat generation? Because by my math, that gnome has a 56 Point Buy, which could go a long way towards explaining why he seems really powerful. Especially if everybody else has a more reasonable statline and the Gnome is only one with that much to play with.I never use point buy. He started with these stats:
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 18
Gnome gets: +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength
4th level buy: +1 ConstitutionNo, I didn't see him roll either. I generally go with the honor system since anyone that would b*~%@#*# stats to "win" a roleplaying game is a dolt anyway. Lol.
There is the problem. Adventure Paths assume a 20 point buy... maybe even 15...anyway its early and my brain isn't working.
Unless you are boosting encounters then ANY PC with those stats will appear OPexcept the Monk
I never allow players to roll individual - then you get players with crasy stats and other that are just waiting to die so they can roll a new char.
Either use a point buy system or if you want players to roll dice - then make the players use the same results.
Just a quick look at those stats...
if he rolled 3 dice for those (eather 3 die, or 4, take the highest 3, I dont care), these are what he has...
Str=5,5,5
Dex=5,5,4
Con=5,5,5
Int= 6,6,5
Wis= 5,5,5
Cha= 6,6,6
... see an imbalance? at the lowest, he could have a single 2... Generally he has only 5s and 6s with a single 4 as his "low roll." If the other players have anything even remotely average, you can see where a problem is.
As a side note, you might call it being a Dolt to fudge die to win a game, he might not see it that way. He might even see it as him being effective or even doing what is needed to survive. heck he could also just be caught up on the power. The point is he probably sees it differently than you do and I think you need to talk to him about this point most. You can counter him hard if you want, but that can lead to alot of player vs gm stuff and that can also cause problems. And I agree with Spacelard, any char will appear op with those stats, more so with other 'regular' players and a AP that gears to 15/20 point buy.
AP's are written assuming 15 point buy.
How did you do stat generation? Because by my math, that gnome has a 56 Point Buy, which could go a long way towards explaining why he seems really powerful. Especially if everybody else has a more reasonable statline and the Gnome is only one with that much to play with.Haha, that's a good point- those stats are absurd!
Rolling your stats, like a boss.
AP's are written assuming 15 point buy.
This.
This is your problem.
He has nearly 4 times the point buy that APs are biult for.
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AP's are written assuming 15 point buy.This.
This is your problem.
He has nearly 4 times the point buy that APs are biult for.
Yup, agree 100%.
Your player cheated on his stat rolls and came up with a 50+ point build in a 15 point designed AP. I know, you can't prove He cheated, but really, with a set of unwitnessed rolls like that, he did.
Now you're struggling to get a cheating, glory hound player (Note, not character) under control. Don't gor for the "how can I beat him" strategy, talk to him, express your concerns, if needed bring his stats on par with the rest of the group and try to communicate your problems. Otherwise long term you're just setting yourself up to be in a dysfunctional group and I'm pretty sure your other players will tire of it.
Okay I'm satisfied that the class is fine and not over-powered. I think the real issue is that he's operating above the other characters in the party who have a different build philosophy. Their stats also don't look ridiculous. So, I think what I need instead is some good counter to the oracle without killing the rest of the party.
I already addressed a few options you have to make this character have less of an impact on combat.
I'm thinking that maybe the character isn't OP at all, but rather syncing too well with your particular playstyle as a DM. Flame oracles function best as blasters, and blasters function best when DMs throw lots of lower-HP monsters in nearby swarms.
This oracle would struggle more if you used enemies with more HP, fewer enemies, or used "mixing tactics" and got the enemies within the ranks of your party. This can be as simple as having an enemy bee-line for a caster or flanking the melee; neither of which are unusual for pack-mentality or intelligent creatures. How can you successfully cast an area spell when you're going to hit the healer?
One thing I've done when 1-2 PCs in a group I've GM'd for seemed to mop the floor with every enemy is use a few methods to make encounters more "balanced":
Give every monster and enemy PC full HP for a group of 4-5 players, 6 or more give them 1.5 times full HP.
Find a "debuffer" or "support" type monster and add it to the encounter.
(Last resort) - Add 1-2 more enemies to the encounters.
Made for a much better game (I erred in letting the first PFRPG group I GM'd use 25-point buy for use with Pathfinder Modules and basic CRB CR guidelines... live and learn) for both me and my players, as we've all found that the greater the challenge the more fun the game.
I know it's not a problem with your whole party, but using some of these things may help even things out; if the other PCs are getting knocked out the Oracle will have to spend more time healing them than clobbering your monsters.
AP's are written assuming 15 point buy.This.
This is your problem.
He has nearly 4 times the point buy that APs are biult for.
to save yourself a lot of work rewriting encounters to bring them to a level where the PCs are not trashing them I would bite the bullet and say that as a GM you made a mistake not using point buy. Explain that Pazio Adventure Paths assume 4 15 point buy PCs.
Get everyone to rebuild their PCs using 15-20 point buy. Mature level-headed players will understand. Munchkin Cheese Monkeys, sadly, won't.
The biggest thing powerwise would be the flight in my opinion... but unless I am missing something, I do not see ANYTHING that would give him flight! ??How is he flying??
The biggest thing powerwise would be the flight in my opinion... but unless I am missing something, I do not see ANYTHING that would give him flight! ??How is he flying??
I assume he has the Wings of Fire mystery, even though it's not listed.
Solution is simple:
Re-create the current characters with either 15 or 20 point buy with you stating that it's for balance reasons, you don't need to go into any further detail.
You're the DM and that's all they need to know.
If anyone kicks up a fuss tell them to find another DM, and/or direct them to this thread.
Wow everyone seems to just think point buy is where it is at. I love rolling for stats in my group. You do not end up with cookie cutter characters. The old 4d6 drop the lowest method is what we use. A lot of the time you do not even know what you are going to play till you roll your stats and see what you got.
I don't know maybe I am just old school lol I have been playing D&D for 27 years now lol. I still have my old red box, blue box for D&D.
Solution is simple:
Re-create the current characters with either 15 or 20 point buy with you stating that it's for balance reasons, you don't need to go into any further detail.
You're the DM and that's all they need to know.
If anyone kicks up a fuss tell them to find another DM, and/or direct them to this thread.
Going with a "I'm the DM so you do what I say, I'm god here, I don't need to explain myself!" attitude makes whoever is saying it sound like the kind of DM who finds himself with no one wanting to play with him. It's not all about the DM, nor is it all about the players; everyone is supposed to be having fun and you can't have a game with just players or just a DM. That said, explain rationally why you want characters redone with point buy and point out the benefits for you and the other players.
Wow everyone seems to just think point buy is where it is at. I love rolling for stats in my group. You do not end up with cookie cutter characters. The old 4d6 drop the lowest method is what we use. A lot of the time you do not even know what you are going to play till you roll your stats and see what you got.
I don't know maybe I am just old school lol I have been playing D&D for 27 years now lol. I still have my old red box, blue box for D&D.
I like rolling as well, but if the DM doesn't step in to buff numbers for the people who rolled low then the people who got lucky will always be able to outshine them to the point that they might as well not even contribute (which is the case here).
You also don't end up with cookie cutter build using point buy if you have an imagination.
I am not implying that Banecrow does not have an imagination.
Mr.Dallas---> The build is not all that great despite his high point totals. I think the issue is that one player is building for power while everyone else is not, so he looks better than he really is. You need to get everyone on the same page, or at least closer, with regarding to how powerful they will make their characters.
give him the curse "terrified of fire" and all will be well
I never use point buy. He started with these stats:
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 18
No, I didn't see him roll either. I generally go with the honor system.
He cheated.
I have rolled similar stats before. Actually I normally roll pretty high if a GM wants to use dice rolls. He may not have cheated, but when the person that likes to optimize gets the best stats, among a group of nonoptimizers it can cause issues.
You also don't end up with cookie cutter build using point buy if you have an imagination.
I am not implying that Banecrow does not have an imagination.
Oh trust me I have used point buy before and there is nothing wrong with it but I have found that most players tend to gravitate towards effeciancy when you use point buy. Where is the fighter who also has a say 16 charisma. Using a point buy system I have found that most players tend to have "dump" stats such as charisma yet they then try to play this supper eloquent character. (yes I know charisma is more than just that, it is also force of personality).
I have rolled similar stats before. Actually I normally roll pretty high if a GM wants to use dice rolls. He may not have cheated, but when the person that likes to optimize gets the best stats, among a group of nonoptimizers it can cause issues.I never use point buy. He started with these stats:
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 18
No, I didn't see him roll either. I generally go with the honor system.
He cheated.
The probability of him getting those rolls (or better, in any order) by chance is less than 1 in 10,000.
I have done well consistently. They were not always that good though. I will give you my last rolled stats.
17, 15, 16, 14, 14, 11
That is about normally what I get when I roll in front of the GM.
I have only rolled poorly once. I had nothing above 12 and 5 rolls below 10. That was not a fun game.
I am not saying for sure that he did not cheat, but the fact that I roll well consistently does mean his rolls were possible. Assuming your math is correct I probably have a 1/100000 chance of rolling the way I did over so many games, but it happened.
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Okay I'm satisfied that the class is fine and not over-powered. I think the real issue is that he's operating above the other characters in the party who have a different build philosophy. Their stats also don't look ridiculous. So, I think what I need instead is some good counter to the oracle without killing the rest of the party.
While I DO think the stats are the biggest issue, a few ideas for counters: The best one is to lower his charisma and constitution, through curses, drain, damage, etc. He'll be able to heal much of it thanks to spells, but not all of it, and that can make a huge difference.
Causing the fighting to happen in/underwater (without the ability to fly above the water) would probably be a great counter, and I know for a fact that there are a few areas of the Serpent's Skull AP that involve combat in water. He'd have to move much slower, his attacks will be weaker, he can't wear awesome armor, and his spellcasting would be hindered because of the verbal componenets.
Also, being as I have played this campaign before, these characters are probably woefully under-equipped, and it might be that his particular play style is allowing him to overcome that. For example, in a super-underequipped campaign, Oracles and Sorcerers shine because they don't need armor or weapons very much and they learn spells without access to other spellbooks or scrolls or anything. Your fighter or rogue is probably hurting for damage-dealing ability because of the crappy equipment available. So, give the other players some equipment that will be most useful for them, and not useful at all to the oracle, to boost them up closer to his level.
Finally, it sounds like this one player is good at optimization where the others are not so much. This in and of itself can severely unbalance your game, so I would pull the player aside and request one of two things: 1) would he be willing to weaken his character to get back in line with the other characters? Maybe his oracle has a religious experience and changes his Mystery to one that is not so combat-focused?
2) would he be willing to help the other players optimize their characters a little bit to pull them up to his level?
If you do some or all of these things, everyone should be able to have an enjoyable time and be more on the same page.
Oh trust me I have used point buy before and there is nothing wrong with it but I have found that most players tend to gravitate towards effeciancy when you use point buy. Where is the fighter who also has a say 16 charisma. Using a point buy system I have found that most players tend to have "dump" stats such as charisma yet they then try to play this supper eloquent character. (yes I know charisma is more than just that, it is also force of personality).You also don't end up with cookie cutter build using point buy if you have an imagination.
I am not implying that Banecrow does not have an imagination.
The same thing happens in rolling stats. If I roll an 8 I am still putting it into charisma. My high score still goes to strength, unless you were referring to "rolling in order" which is another thing altogether. I won't touch that topic, just to keep the thread on focus.