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Sell me on Eldritch Heritage Chain for melee type PC


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


K a ton of build say Eldritch Heritage Chain for +6 STR for melee types. ok....

But you have to spend 3 feat to get that +6 STR and you do not get it till level 19, +4 at 15 level, and +2 at level 11. That is great for NPC bad guy but for player who's play time will most likely end at level 20. Is it realy worth it?


Robe of arcane heritage gets it by 15. The major boon is that it is a bonus otherwise unattainable without wishes or very expensive magic items and it goes above the typical +5 limit on inherent bonuses.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You could always use the bloodline from Orcs of Cheeselorion :p


Not 3 feats. 2 feats, the third feat rarely adds anytjing to non-casters. And the strength is granted by the second feat.

Orc: 1) rage 2) strength 3) enlarge (+6 str etc)
Abyssal 1) claws, semi useless 2) strength

= +18 str at 5 feats spent and level 15 and that robe.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

3 feats. You also need the skill focus.

Scarab Sages

ikki3520 wrote:

Not 3 feats. 2 feats, the third feat rarely adds anytjing to non-casters. And the strength is granted by the second feat.

Orc: 1) rage 2) strength 3) enlarge (+6 str etc)
Abyssal 1) claws, semi useless 2) strength

= +18 str at 5 feats spent and level 15 and that robe.

One or the other. You can't take Eldritch Heritage more than once.


minoritarian wrote:
You can't take Eldritch Heritage more than once.

Why?


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
minoritarian wrote:
You can't take Eldritch Heritage more than once.
Why?

It doesn't say you can take it multiple times. On that note, I would let someone take it multiple times, but must choose a different bloodline and meet those pre-requisites, which would most likely mean you have to take Skill Focus multiple times.


Or consider Arcane Bloodline with the Familiar option.
Familar flanking gives you a pretty reliable +2 to-hit (flying familiars with high speeds are best at ensuring this)
Besides having it's 'job' be to be your flanking buddy, it can be Aiding Another - it just needs to threaten said enemy: having 'normal' 5' reach is useful here (e.g. small size animal familiars like goat, some improved familiars like elementals and pseudragons do as well). That's another +2, for +4 to-hit from two Feats. It can also Aid Another to boost your AC when and if you want to.
The Pre-Req will be Knowledge(Any), Knowledge Arcana is pretty decent and helps you ID spell effects (it overlaps with Spellcraft in some ways).
As a melee-ist, you won't really benefit from anything beyond the initial Eldritch Heritage Feat with this BL (saving Feats for other stuff), although taking the Improved Familiar Feat may be appealing (stuff like the Paladin-healing Sylvanshee is nice, although it doesn't have normal Reach - easily fixable via Enlarge Person of course).
I haven't even gone into the other uses of a Familiar, which can include feeding people Potions, UMDing, manipulating other items (tanglefoot bags, etc)... The list can go on (most Improved Familiars have an SLA or other special ability). As a full warrior HD PC, your Familiar should have tons of HPs as well.

Liberty's Edge

The Orc Bloodline is pretty rockin. I actually took Orc Bloodline with my Half-Elf Ranger, lol! He got the free Skill Focus feat for being a Half-Elf and loaded up on all the Orc Bloodline goodies. I even got some use out of that first level Bloodline ability where you give another character a morale bonus to attack, damage and saves for one round by slapping it on my animal companion. We quietly didn't talk about my character's dubious ancestry (what with counting as a human, elf, and orc) and everyone had fun. Especially me.


Some Improved Familiars have stuff like See Invisiblity, which is great (especially if you have Blind-Fight),
but many/most of the base Animal Famliars also have Scent, which also has good utility...
At most, they may spend a Move Action to move around the area before they pinpoint an adjacent enemy.


Sylvan gives you an AC at -5 Druid Level and it stacks with classes that give an animal companion. If not going the "get a book lodged in your head" route, you can grab Boon Companion to make it -1.


Well we 11 post and no one read the question or answered it...

For Melee type fighter why spend 3 feat(Skll Focus, Eldritch Heritage , & Improved Eldritch Heritage) to get +6 STR that you will not get till level 19. With the Abyssal Blood line this is one evey one on the board say must take melee builds...

The Skill Focus dose nothing for you in most melee build.
Dud feat only worth takeing if for free ie Human or 1/2 elf, even then I my mind it hurts.

The claw you get is ok if you get diarmed, but realy no where as good as your main melee weapon.
Not that good. I rather have short sword/ Kurie as off hand weapon. Totaly usless for 2 handed buld or Sword board build. Agian Dud feat

Then lastly Improved Eldritch Heritage to get +2 at level 11 then +4 level 15, then +6 at level 19. K this one is the pay off but take all the way to level 19 to get it. And yes you can get it level 15 if have the robes. But still have to sit 11 level with 2 dud feat in you build.
And hoping that find the item or can get it crafted a feat in and of it self.

That 1/2 play life (levels 1-10 of play life to get 1/4 play life some what cool(levels 11-14) and 1/4 play life(levels 15-20) realy cool.
This dose not add up to me as a player, As GM for NPC sure. Not as player.

Plaese lets stay one track with this feat chain and this blood line. Let not talk about how cool it is pets like animal companion or familiars I agree they are realy cool but thaty are the point of this thread. Or any other blood line.


Tom S 820 wrote:

Well we 11 post and no one read the question or answered it...

For Melee type fighter why spend 3 feat(Skll Focus, Eldritch Heritage , & Improved Eldritch Heritage) to get +6 STR that you will not get till level 19. With the Abyssal Blood line this is one evey one on the board say must take melee builds...

The Skill Focus dose nothing for you in most melee build.
Dud feat only worth takeing if for free ie Human or 1/2 elf, even then I my mind it hurts.

The claw you get is ok if you get diarmed, but realy no where as good as your main melee weapon.
Not that good. I rather have short sword/ Kurie as off hand weapon. Totaly usless for 2 handed buld or Sword board build. Agian Dud feat

Then lastly Improved Eldritch Heritage to get +2 at level 11 then +4 level 15, then +6 at level 19. K this one is the pay off but take all the way to level 19 to get it. And yes you can get it level 15 if have the robes. But still have to sit 11 level with 2 dud feat in you build.
And hoping that find the item or can get it crafted a feat in and of it self.

That 1/2 play life (levels 1-10 of play life to get 1/4 play life some what cool(levels 11-14) and 1/4 play life(levels 15-20) realy cool.
This dose not add up to me as a player, As GM for NPC sure. Not as player.

Plaese lets stay one track with this feat chain and this blood line. Let not talk about how cool it is pets like animal companion or familiars I agree they are realy cool but thaty are the point of this thread. Or any other blood line.

That is why most of the Eldritch Heritage guides also include the trait Optimistic Gambler.

That allows the first Orc bloodline power to be useful also and skill focus survival isn't a total dud feat. Tracking is used quite a bit in most games I have been in and I had quite a few GMs that enforce the how much ration you got and survival is used a lot.


I'm taking the orc bloodline for my Hellknight character in a KM campaign for a few reasons. Survival has proven to be a fairly important skill for us and so boosting that would really help out and touch of rage will give a real good first round volley burst for his archer cohort. I typically have to wait a round before really getting into combat since the other frontliners tend to roll low init and charging right into the middle hasn't worked out too well.

Now the improved is the payoff phase. Again a major boon is that inherent bonuses are very costly normally. A +1 inherent bonus will cost more than the robes themselves as they're either 25k each for a wish or start at 27.5k for the books. Second they normally cap at +5, with robes you get to overcome that limit at level 15 and this stacks with the standard belts.

Now i don't really know the math to tell how much of an impact this has. I know that feats are fairly important since they're fairly limited. I'm taking the orc bloodline partly as flavor since he's half-orc but I don't think it should be fully discounted. If you buy the robes at level 11 you get a bonus normally worth 110k when typically you're expected to have around 82.5.


If you fit in Quicken SLA at around level 11 or 13 you can swift action and get a morale bonus to hit and damage for both range and melee attacks. It is pure gold.

So for 4 feats and a trait you can get at level 20 a +6 strength and a swift action +11 to hit and +11 to damage for both melee and range.

This is better mechanically than grabbing weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, power attack and deadly aim.


Gignere wrote:

If you fit in Quicken SLA at around level 11 or 13 you can swift action and get a morale bonus to hit and damage for both range and melee attacks. It is pure gold.

So for 4 feats and a trait you can get at level 20 a +6 strength and a swift action +11 to hit and +11 to damage for both melee and range.

This is better mechanically than grabbing weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, power attack and deadly aim.

First off your talking about Ork blood line not Abyssal blood line. Please stay on topic.

I can get the whole list that you are talking about by 8th level vs 17th

I get whole lot play time with them 13 level vs 4 levels with the Abyssal Blood line.

If you assume that 13 encouter per level I can get the list given by 8th level vs Blood line chain pay out at level 17.
13x13 = 169 timed use vs 4x13=52 time used. The list you talk about is fulled more use by 117 more encouters vs Abyssal Blood line feat chain.


The reason people are bringing up the Orc bloodline is that it offers the same bonus at the same level and it possesses a more useful 1st power than the abyssal line with a skill focus that is more useful than the more situational Knowledge Planes. I'm not sure why you're discounting it since your original post did not exclude it. All you asked about was the strength bonus and there are two bloodline options that give that.


Truthfully cause untill 2 hours ago I did not not it was out there. It in stack of books I have to read still. The Survial Skill route for a melee seem way palatable to me and fisrt level power/ fisrt feat seems way better in my book now for Ork blood line vs Abyssal especialy with trait Optimistic Gambler. This seem to me to be better route but I still do not know it pay out as well as everyone thinks it dose to level that you get it. It is way down road. It high rate of reutrn with big feat tax(3) with along term investment before you can colect your dividends for +6 STR.

Liberty's Edge

Tom S 820 wrote:

Truthfully cause untill 2 hours ago I did not not it was out there. It in stack of books I have to read still. The Survial Skill route for a melee seem way palatable to me and fisrt level power/ fisrt feat seems way better in my book now for Ork blood line vs Abyssal especialy with trait Optimistic Gambler. This seem to me to be better route but I still do not know it pay out as well as everyone thinks it dose to level that you get it. It is way down road. It high rate of reutrn with big feat tax(3) with along term investment before you can colect your dividends for +6 STR.

If you're running a campaign to 17th level or beyond, the Eldritch Heritage (Orc Bloodline) feats give you a +6 inherent bonus to strength; a +6 Size bonus to Str, +4 size bonus to Con, and +4 Natural Armor bonus for 17+ minutes a day; and the ability to slap an ally and give them an 8+ morale bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws. It's a reasonable return on investment for 3 feats.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Tom.

First, the Highest inherent modifier a character can get in any stat is +5. This ability brings it to +6.

Secondly, +5 Inherent Bonus would normally cost 125,000gp or more. +6 would cost 150k gp if you could even get it that high. Even if you have to wait til 15th level to get that bonus to a +4 Str, that's basically a free 100k worth of wishes right there.

Thirdly, A +4 to Str gets you a +2 to attack rolls and +2 to damage. This equals to about Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Focus... Which is about 3 Feats... that's the same that it will cost you to get this bonus and you can stack it with the feats I just listed. Hell if you reach 19th (or 17th level if for some reason you take the last Eldritch Heritage Feat), you get another weapon focus and half of another weapon specialization when the bonus hits +6.

Fourthly, Unlike the feats listed in my 3rd point, this an actual permanent stat boost. Which means that you can use it to count for prerequisites (unlikely to matter that may be) and it gives you a bit more strength you can lose before hitting 0 and going paralyzed or whatever it is. That's a bit more survivability from Strength damage atleast.

So, sure it can take a while before you can get it but it is MORE weapon focus, weapon specialization, and greater weapon focus for the fighting types... And remember, if you're a fighting type, the thing you do the best is HITTING THINGS and DAMAGING THINGS... and though it has a bit of a feat tax... it does ultimately help do exactly those two things.


I made a thread a long long time ago about this very subject.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Tom S 820 wrote:

K a ton of build say Eldritch Heritage Chain for +6 STR for melee types. ok....

But you have to spend 3 feat to get that +6 STR and you do not get it till level 19, +4 at 15 level, and +2 at level 11. That is great for NPC bad guy but for player who's play time will most likely end at level 20. Is it realy worth it?

Half-Elven Summoner, mounted when the Eidolon becomes Large at 8th level and wielding a lance with Arcane Strike.

You get the requisite Skill Focus for free, Touch of Rage for your Pouncing Eidolon, enhanced strength for your melee attacks and then just when your Eidolon gets Huge, you get Large to match him.

Totally, totally worth it.

Lantern Lodge

ikki3520 wrote:

Not 3 feats. 2 feats, the third feat rarely adds anytjing to non-casters. And the strength is granted by the second feat.

Orc: 1) rage 2) strength 3) enlarge (+6 str etc)
Abyssal 1) claws, semi useless 2) strength

= +18 str at 5 feats spent and level 15 and that robe.

I didn't see anyone answering why not ... they are both inherent bonuses, and therefore, do not stack.


You need a good charisma to get those feats. You can get this charisma with boosters but then again you could also spend your money on other things than charisma boosters that may be slightly more important to a melee combatant. If I had some spare feats I might consider it for a paladin or maybe an arcane duelist.


Turgan wrote:
You need a good charisma to get those feats. You can get this charisma with boosters but then again you could also spend your money on other things than charisma boosters that may be slightly more important to a melee combatant. If I had some spare feats I might consider it for a paladin or maybe an arcane duelist.

Fighters with nothing better to spend it on can make use of it as well.


I've wondered about trying the serpentine bloodline on a ninja. You start by getting an extra secondary attack that soon becomes poisonous - and any extra attack is great for a class that uses sneak attack dice. Then you can get an ability that lets you speak with reptiles - situational - but also a viper companion, who uses all your skill points (and you have a ton), gives you +3 to bluff and alertness (+2/4 to two handy skills) when it's close. For another feat, you get snakeskin - natural armor, bonus to saves vs poison and escape artist checks. Not incredible, but also quite nice.

The price is that you need to get SF diplomacy. Not really a huge waste on a class which will likely have decent charisma and heaps of skills anyway. If you are a half-elf, you can get the required feat for free.

There is a variant bloodline (envenomed) that trades serpentfriend for being able to envenom a weapon several times a day. The draconic/linnorn bloodlines aren't too bad either, and you could use the rakshasa.

BTW, bloodlines are particularly interesting to look into if you are playing a half-elf. You get the skill focus for free, and there are some decent bloodlines that use feats you might get some good mileage out of, such as perception, diplomacy etc.


Turgan wrote:
You need a good charisma to get those feats. You can get this charisma with boosters but then again you could also spend your money on other things than charisma boosters that may be slightly more important to a melee combatant. If I had some spare feats I might consider it for a paladin or maybe an arcane duelist.

I would agree that if you want the Eldritch Heritage feats for a martial character, it's a good idea to pick a build/class that gets some use from the increased Charisma. Paladins, Bards, Summoners, and some flavors of the Cavalier are all good choices.


Tom S 820 wrote:
Plaese lets stay one track with this feat chain and this blood line. Let not talk about how cool it is pets like animal companion or familiars I agree they are realy cool but thaty are the point of this thread. Or any other blood line.

While apparently you were implicitly discussing Abyssal, you didn't mention that in the original post...

The thread topic is merely 'melees and eldritch heritage' which can include any bloodline.
Your OP mentioned a +6 boost to STR, which isn't an inherent part of 'melee w/ eldritch heritage',
but as other posters mentioned, other bloodlines can achieve that just as well as Abyssal,
so those would be conforming to both the letter of your OP and any implications re: STR boosts.

Per the actual text of the thread topic, I think Familars and Companions are more than relevant as options for melee types using Eldritch Heritage, for one because you can gain them with only the base Eldritch Heritage Feat, and you don't need the entire Feat chain and CHA to match. As I mentioned, Knowledge:Arcana seems a pretty decent skill to have maxed, since besides knowing about dragons and such, it works pretty much similar to spellcraft, and IDing spells can be very useful.

'variant bloodlines' are really a sorceror archetype, so that isn't usable with Eldrtich Heritage in PFS, although it may be OK with your GM in a home game.


By the way, speaking of animal companions - the Sylvan variant bloodline gets you an animal companion at level 1 but also loses the bloodline arcana. Since the companion is detailed as a bloodline power, but you also lose the BA, do you think it should be accessible via eldritch heritage?


The Shaman wrote:
By the way, speaking of animal companions - the Sylvan variant bloodline gets you an animal companion at level 1 but also loses the bloodline arcana. Since the companion is detailed as a bloodline power, but you also lose the BA, do you think it should be accessible via eldritch heritage?

No actually all the wild bloodlines are unavailable for EH because they are archetypes, of bloodlines.

Secondly, even if your GM rules otherwise I don't see how you can grab a bloodline arcana when EH doesn't give you that at all.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Gignere wrote:
The Shaman wrote:
By the way, speaking of animal companions - the Sylvan variant bloodline gets you an animal companion at level 1 but also loses the bloodline arcana. Since the companion is detailed as a bloodline power, but you also lose the BA, do you think it should be accessible via eldritch heritage?
No actually all the wild bloodlines are unavailable for EH because they are archetypes, of bloodlines.

Yeah, I've never known ANYONE who has ruled that way.


Wiggz wrote:
Gignere wrote:
The Shaman wrote:
By the way, speaking of animal companions - the Sylvan variant bloodline gets you an animal companion at level 1 but also loses the bloodline arcana. Since the companion is detailed as a bloodline power, but you also lose the BA, do you think it should be accessible via eldritch heritage?
No actually all the wild bloodlines are unavailable for EH because they are archetypes, of bloodlines.
Yeah, I've never known ANYONE who has ruled that way.

*raises hand*

But, more than that the sylvan blood line replaces the arcana of that particular blood line. Eldritch heritage does not give you the arcana. So no you cannot take that bloodline with that feat.


It's a complete waste until level 11 when you get Imp. EH, but Marid bloodline gives you Water's Fury, for an at will standard action 60 ft line AoE effect that does moderate damage and blinds for 1d6 rounds on a failed reflex save. Very nice ranged complement to a melee character with high charisma, like a paladin.

Doesn't boost your melee at all, but having a great second option for rounds you can't reach melee is quite nice as well, you know?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
StreamOfTheSky wrote:

It's a complete waste until level 11 when you get Imp. EH, but Marid bloodline gives you Water's Fury, for an at will standard action 60 ft line AoE effect that does moderate damage and blinds for 1d6 rounds on a failed reflex save. Very nice ranged complement to a melee character with high charisma, like a paladin.

Doesn't boost your melee at all, but having a great second option for rounds you can't reach melee is quite nice as well, you know?

I could see that being VERY useful for a Summoner...

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