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How many Opportunity Attacks are Proviked by Ranged Attacks


Rules Questions


Suppose an Archer takes the full attack (3 attacks) option while threatened by someone with Combat Reflexes.
Does the Archer provoke 3 Opportunity Attacks (one for each attack) or only 1 because the Full Attack is part of the same action?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

3 AoOs.

Of course, that's what the 5ft step is for.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As many AoOs as ranged attacks he makes (barring very, very rare circumstances like Scorching Ray).

Cheliax RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Three. Each individual ranged attack provokes.


Denied! This happened in our game, but I was the Fighter with Pin Down and the archer was shooting me in the face. DM ruled only 1 Opportunity Attack. Can you tell me where the rules cover that?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

From this FAQ

Quote:

When you cast a spell that allows you to make a ranged touch attack, such as scorching ray, and an enemy is within reach, do you provoke two attacks of opportunity?

Yes, you provoke two attacks of opportunity, one for casting the spell and one for making a ranged attack, since these are two separate events. As a note, since all of the rays are fired simultaneously (in the case of scorching ray), you would only provoke one attack of opportunity for making the ranged attack, even if you fired more than one ray.

The italicized portion is my emphasis, but note that it sets up scorching ray as the exception to the rule of provoking an attack of opportunity per ranged attack.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The rules for it are found here and here.

If an act provokes an AoO, provokes no matter what part of an action it's done in. Of course, there are some exceptions, as the rules state, but that's the general rule.


On a similar note...
If you move through multiple threatened squares, it should just be one AoO right since the move is all one action?


BltzKrg242 wrote:

On a similar note...

If you move through multiple threatened squares, it should just be one AoO right since the move is all one action?

No. Generally, moving out of a threatened square (save a 5 ft. follow-up or a Withdraw action) will provoke an AOO.

If you are dealing with a creature that has 15 ft. reach, if you close the gap (AKA, become adjacent to that creature), you would provoke 2 AOO, as you are moving out of a threatened square into another threatened square, and moving out of that threatened square into yet another threatened square. Since the creature has Combat Reflexes, it will get 2 AOOs to make against you.

However, should you start at their 15 ft. threat range, and close the gap, you would only provoke 1 AOO, since you make a 5 ft. step (which is free), and move another 5 ft. adjacent to the creature, which is what would provoke.


BltzKrg242 wrote:

On a similar note...

If you move through multiple threatened squares, it should just be one AoO right since the move is all one action?

You have to read carefully on this, as there are two different things going on.

Leaving each and every threatened square is it's own provocation, however a single foe can only take one AOO against a creature for movement each round.

To whit a creature can dance around a fighter leaving 4 of their threatened squares. The fighter can elect to make his/her AOO at any of those four provocations. Once they've made one, however, even with Combat Reflexes, they cannot make another against this creature during this round for movement.

So if you are closing against a creature with 15' reach and leave two squares that they threaten they can only take one AOO against you, but can decide at each provocation if that's the one that they wish to make.

-James


james maissen wrote:
BltzKrg242 wrote:

On a similar note...

If you move through multiple threatened squares, it should just be one AoO right since the move is all one action?

You have to read carefully on this, as there are two different things going on.

Leaving each and every threatened square is it's own provocation, however a single foe can only take one AOO against a creature for movement each round.

To whit a creature can dance around a fighter leaving 4 of their threatened squares. The fighter can elect to make his/her AOO at any of those four provocations. Once they've made one, however, even with Combat Reflexes, they cannot make another against this creature during this round for movement.

So if you are closing against a creature with 15' reach and leave two squares that they threaten they can only take one AOO against you, but can decide at each provocation if that's the one that they wish to make.

-James

Are you serious? The only benefit to Combat Reflexes would be to be able to make an AOO even while flat-footed, which is hardly worth it to take as a feat. I'd be better off taking Toughness as a feat, and that as a feat is about as low and weak as it gets.

What RAW says that you can only make one attack against a creature's movement?


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


What RAW says that you can only make one attack against a creature's movement?

Directly in the section on AOOs?

Now with combat reflexes you could take AOOs on each and every one of the creatures moving past you.

Likewise you could take a second AOO if they moved up to you, then provoked say by casting.

Combat Reflexes has it's purpose, but you don't get to see a squid's tentacle froth the water against one fish darting past. As cool as the picture might seem...

-James


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Are you serious? The only benefit to Combat Reflexes would be to be able to make an AOO even while flat-footed, which is hardly worth it to take as a feat. I'd be better off taking Toughness as a feat, and that as a feat is about as low and weak as it gets.

What RAW says that you can only make one attack against a creature's movement?

Here

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Combat reflexes is still great for getting many AoOs from lots of enemies.


Cheapy wrote:
Combat reflexes is still great for getting many AoOs from lots of enemies.

Or for the Bodyguard feat, which seems to be its only solid use outside of making AOO's while flat-footed. The feat is otherwise quite useless in one-on-one combat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Good thing most encounters have multiple enemies moving about or doing acts that would provoke. :)


It defeats the purpose of being so keen in combat. Why even give a creature reach if it just means they can hit you at a farther distance? If I'm fighting some big nasty dragon with 20 ft. reach, I'm sure that if I moved adjacent to it that it can take each of those attacks and claw me down (or chomp me down) to tiny pieces before I get to him.

If he only gets one attack, why even get Combat Reflexes other than for the odd-ball event somebody ambushes you? There would otherwise be much better feats to spend on.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


No. Generally, moving out of a threatened square (save a 5 ft. follow-up or a Withdraw action) will provoke an AOO.

If you are dealing with a creature that has 15 ft. reach, if you close the gap (AKA, become adjacent to that creature), you would provoke 2 AOO, as you are moving out of a threatened square into another threatened square, and moving out of that threatened square into yet another threatened square. Since the creature has Combat Reflexes, it will get 2 AOOs to make against you.

However, should you start at their 15 ft. threat range, and close the gap, you would only provoke 1 AOO, since you make a 5 ft. step (which is free), and move another 5 ft. adjacent to the creature, which is what would provoke.

Isn't it forbidden to take a 5 foot step in combination with any other movement?

Cheliax

I would think creatures with reach are used to being assaulted by multiple creatures rushing in at once, hoping the reach creature does not have combat reflexes.

Kalridan, you are right about not being able to do both a 5 foot step and a movement on the same turn. Baring anything special like a feat, spell, or class feature. What a person could do is both a 5 foot step and a move equivalent action like pull out a potion or open a door.

Your errors were so glaring, I had to log in to correct you and anyone else reading them. I concur with James Maissen's explanation.

I play multiple PCs and Eidolons who employ both reach and combat reflexes and I like the synergy. I have noticed though that when you have this combination:
1 good ac(not even great, just good)
2 reach with a good chance to hit
3 combat reflexes
DM's tend to go look for other targets. It is almost as if they have decided that they can drain the party of resources better by going after soft party members who will be hit and need to get healed. It denies the party resources on both that healing and maybe action economy if they knock out a PC. Almost makes it a little frustrating that I do not get to use the abilities I chose as often, but hay, it helps keep my character alive and staying in the fight. Sometimes a little extra damage.

I use to love it when a mage 5 foot stepped and provoked twice for both casting and doing a ranged attack spell but now I remind the judge that the character would unlikely do such a thing and ask if the judge wants to choose another course.


Kalridian wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


No. Generally, moving out of a threatened square (save a 5 ft. follow-up or a Withdraw action) will provoke an AOO.

If you are dealing with a creature that has 15 ft. reach, if you close the gap (AKA, become adjacent to that creature), you would provoke 2 AOO, as you are moving out of a threatened square into another threatened square, and moving out of that threatened square into yet another threatened square. Since the creature has Combat Reflexes, it will get 2 AOOs to make against you.

However, should you start at their 15 ft. threat range, and close the gap, you would only provoke 1 AOO, since you make a 5 ft. step (which is free), and move another 5 ft. adjacent to the creature, which is what would provoke.

Isn't it forbidden to take a 5 foot step in combination with any other movement?

True, but the first 5 ft. (since you are already in a threatened square and stopped, not moving until the next round) would be free; the next 5 ft. would trigger the AOO.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Kalridian wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


No. Generally, moving out of a threatened square (save a 5 ft. follow-up or a Withdraw action) will provoke an AOO.

If you are dealing with a creature that has 15 ft. reach, if you close the gap (AKA, become adjacent to that creature), you would provoke 2 AOO, as you are moving out of a threatened square into another threatened square, and moving out of that threatened square into yet another threatened square. Since the creature has Combat Reflexes, it will get 2 AOOs to make against you.

However, should you start at their 15 ft. threat range, and close the gap, you would only provoke 1 AOO, since you make a 5 ft. step (which is free), and move another 5 ft. adjacent to the creature, which is what would provoke.

Isn't it forbidden to take a 5 foot step in combination with any other movement?
True, but the first 5 ft. (since you are already in a threatened square and stopped, not moving until the next round) would be free; the next 5 ft. would trigger the AOO.

No sir, you are wrong in both your reply and your initial quoted text:

If you are moving against a creature with a 15' reach, they may only make one AoO against you because moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

If you are declaring that you are making a 5-foot-step to avoid an AoO provocation, you may not make any other movement. If you start at the 15-foot range and move adjacent, you make one provocation, there isn't a "first five feet are free, but you provoke the second five feet". The creature gets to decide where along that path it smites you.


HangarFlying wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Kalridian wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


No. Generally, moving out of a threatened square (save a 5 ft. follow-up or a Withdraw action) will provoke an AOO.

If you are dealing with a creature that has 15 ft. reach, if you close the gap (AKA, become adjacent to that creature), you would provoke 2 AOO, as you are moving out of a threatened square into another threatened square, and moving out of that threatened square into yet another threatened square. Since the creature has Combat Reflexes, it will get 2 AOOs to make against you.

However, should you start at their 15 ft. threat range, and close the gap, you would only provoke 1 AOO, since you make a 5 ft. step (which is free), and move another 5 ft. adjacent to the creature, which is what would provoke.

Isn't it forbidden to take a 5 foot step in combination with any other movement?
True, but the first 5 ft. (since you are already in a threatened square and stopped, not moving until the next round) would be free; the next 5 ft. would trigger the AOO.

No sir, you are wrong in both your reply and your initial quoted text:

If you are moving against a creature with a 15' reach, they may only make one AoO against you because moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

If you are declaring that you are making a 5-foot-step to avoid an AoO provocation, you may not make any other movement. If you start at the 15-foot range and move adjacent, you make one provocation, there isn't a "first five feet are free, but you provoke the second five feet". The creature gets to decide where along that path it smites you.

I did forget to edit that if I started in an already threatened square and moved 10 feet to the target, I would only trigger one AOO (since only moving 5 feet does not trigger, but moving more than that does for each square beyond that first square.


Cheapy wrote:
Good thing most encounters have multiple enemies moving about or doing acts that would provoke. :)

The player characters in my campaign often take advantage of situations where one enemy has taken an opportunity attack. We generally assume that the enemy does not have the Combat Reflexes feat and thus feel free to take actions that would provoke further opportunity attacks. We are in for a nasty surprise the first time we encounter a foe with that feat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Correction: one player is in for a nasty surprise then.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I did forget to edit that if I started in an already threatened square and moved 10 feet to the target, I would only trigger one AOO (since only moving 5 feet does not trigger, but moving more than that does for each square beyond that...

This is wrong, you have to declare a mode of movement or you provoke even if you just move 5 feet. So you are either making a 5 ft step and don't provoke, or you are doing normal movement and do provoke.

Say you plan to move 30 feet you will provoke for the first square of movement if you are leaving a threatening square. If the rules is true that the first 5 feet of movement doesn't threaten than the withdraw action is totally redundant, because the withdraw action allows you to ignore the first 5 feet of movement when you are threatened.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The feat is otherwise quite useless in one-on-one combat.

Balderdash!

-James


just moving 5 feet does not provoke. IF you wanna move further without provoking that first square you need to do a withdraw action that takes your attack.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Moving 5 feet does provoke if you are leaving a threatened square, but there is really no reason to not take a 5 foot step instead of a move action unless you are restricted from doing so.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Combat Reflexes is also really nice for archers using the Snap Shot line of feats, since the odds of multiple enemies provoking attacks of opportunity from you are effectively nearly tripled. It also allows a guy nose to nose with a caster to flick an attack at anyone trying to slip by him without leaving the caster unthreatened.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
concerro wrote:
Moving 5 feet does provoke if you are leaving a threatened square, but there is really no reason to not take a 5 foot step instead of a move action unless you are restricted from doing so.

The exception is making a withdrawal, which negates any threat from leaving the first 5' square and allows you to move up to twice your base move.

That said, I suppose you could declare a withdrawal action and move towards your opponent to avoid provoking from leaving that first 5' square ... but that's really kinda silly since you would not be able to make an attack until your next turn.


zylphryx wrote:


That said, I suppose you could declare a withdrawal action and move towards your opponent to avoid provoking from leaving that first 5' square ... but that's really kinda silly since you would not be able to make an attack until your next turn.

Well it could be a large creature with a reach weapon, you could then move adjacent to it threatening it while it no longer threatens you.

Not wonderful, but possible.

-James

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, but you are taking an AoO anyway when you pass through that second 5' square (assuming you need to move 10' to get adjacent to the opponent), so it would make more sense to do a normal move, provoke an AoO from movement and still get to make an attack.


Thats why my enlarged cleric with his reach weapon uses armor spikes.


zylphryx wrote:
Yeah, but you are taking an AoO anyway when you pass through that second 5' square (assuming you need to move 10' to get adjacent to the opponent), so it would make more sense to do a normal move, provoke an AoO from movement and still get to make an attack.

Depends where you start. If you started at 15' away then a 'withdraw' inside can avoid all AOOs, and if they don't have armor spikes then they are dropping the reach weapon to draw another.

Thus they will at best get one attack (baring quickdraw), while you will either get an AOO from them moving away or the first full attack.

Is it going to come up? I very much doubt it.. but it is possible, especially in theory.

-James


In PFS I had a DM think he was clever to withdraw into my range and take 2 AOOs(I have a 20' range). Then I withdraw back to move him away again.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

It defeats the purpose of being so keen in combat. Why even give a creature reach if it just means they can hit you at a farther distance? If I'm fighting some big nasty dragon with 20 ft. reach, I'm sure that if I moved adjacent to it that it can take each of those attacks and claw me down (or chomp me down) to tiny pieces before I get to him.

If he only gets one attack, why even get Combat Reflexes other than for the odd-ball event somebody ambushes you? There would otherwise be much better feats to spend on.

Combat Reflexes all by itself is pretty good for simply dealing with:

A) multiple, mobile opponents
B) ranged attackers you can threaten
C) casters you can threaten

Importantly, it ALSO is the oil that greases the wheels for MANY, MANY strategies. We have numerous ways to gain extra attacks of opportunity against opponents, even against single enemies in a round.

Improved Trip, Greater Trip and something Stomp lets you trip someone and AoO them twice...if you have Combat Reflexes. If they move out of a threatened space (maybe because you're using a weapon with reach), you could do all of that...as an attack of opportunity (that's 3 against one opponent in a round). When they try to stand up...you guessed it! Aoo!

Disarm someone and get an AoO when they try to pick up the weapon.

Crane Riposte, Opportunist, Combat Patrol, Come And Get Me, Spellbreaker (or the other, related feat)...the list of things Combat Reflexes makes happen is rather extensive. There's a reason that nearly every combat-oriented character picks up this feat eventually.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Raymond Lambert wrote:

I would think creatures with reach are used to being assaulted by multiple creatures rushing in at once, hoping the reach creature does not have combat reflexes.

Kalridan, you are right about not being able to do both a 5 foot step and a movement on the same turn. Baring anything special like a feat, spell, or class feature. What a person could do is both a 5 foot step and a move equivalent action like pull out a potion or open a door.

Your errors were so glaring, I had to log in to correct you and anyone else reading them. I concur with James Maissen's explanation.

I play multiple PCs and Eidolons who employ both reach and combat reflexes and I like the synergy. I have noticed though that when you have this combination:
1 good ac(not even great, just good)
2 reach with a good chance to hit
3 combat reflexes
DM's tend to go look for other targets. It is almost as if they have decided that they can drain the party of resources better by going after soft party members who will be hit and need to get healed. It denies the party resources on both that healing and maybe action economy if they knock out a PC. Almost makes it a little frustrating that I do not get to use the abilities I chose as often, but hay, it helps keep my character alive and staying in the fight. Sometimes a little extra damage.

I use to love it when a mage 5 foot stepped and provoked twice for both casting and doing a ranged attack spell but now I remind the judge that the character would unlikely do such a thing and ask if the judge wants to choose another course.

Depend on the GM. Im my games the eidolon work well as a blocker/attack attractor from dumb NPC and beasts (too well, according to some player). NPC will spellcraft would know that putting down the summoner will remove the eidolon too.

Naturally even a dumb beast after missing several attacks will flee or change target, but usually at that point it is too late for it.

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