So a friend of mine is DMing a homebrew campaign that im in. we were told that guns would be relatively common in the campaign but that all classes were available.
This DM LOVES guns. we spend most of our time arguing over weather or not gunslingers are the best class in the game. he of course believes that they are and that no class in the game can beat them in combat. ALL of the enemies in this campaign have guns and are gunslingers.
so what i want to do is join the campaign with the most antigun character possible and use it to stomb his gunslingers into the ground. ive spoken with the rest of his group and they love the idea because theyre as sick of gunslingers as i am. and i spoke with him and he said i am welcome to try.
so what do you guys think is the best way to completely neutralize gunslingers?
You'll probably want a high touch AC? If you're fighting a lot of gunslingers, your physical armour isn't going to be of much help.
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It is always a bad idea to try and show a GM that he is wrong with in game measures rather than speaking with the GM, especially if all the other players agree with you.
Second it isn't actually that easy to neutralize a character class - which is just fine because then it would be badly designed.
However Gunslingers aren't actually good in close combat and have no innate methods to escape easily so you could build a fast moving close combateer (druid would likely work best) or try yourself at a specialist monk with insane touch AC through crane style.
Alternatively a trusty Wizard with Fog Cloud/Blindness and the usual goodness in the form of mind affecting spells works well.
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Master Summoner with the +2 Initiative trait and Improve Initiative.
With Superior Summoning and Augment Summoning and a rod of reach spell, you can summon A LOT of tough melee monster right next to those Gunslingers.
Go with a Gnome and up your Dex, Cha and Con.
Start combat by spamming monsters NEXT to the gunslingers.
Or better yet have them appear 15 feet away and charge the gunslingers.
The gunslingers would soon find themselves facing monsters every which way.
And remember Summoned monsters DO NOT disappear if the summoner goes down... and they last for Mins as a Master Summoner.
For extra effect have a fellow Druid/Ranger get Entangle up under those Gunslingers so they are really limited in movement.
Obscuring Mist is also great. Check if there are items that can give you similar effects.
It is always a bad idea to try and show a GM that he is wrong with in game measures rather than speaking with the GM, especially if all the other players agree with you.
Second it isn't actually that easy to neutralize a character class - which is just fine because then it would be badly designed.
However Gunslingers aren't actually good in close combat and have no innate methods to escape easily so you could build a fast moving close combateer (druid would likely work best) or try yourself at a specialist monk with insane touch AC through crane style.
Alternatively a trusty Wizard with Fog Cloud/Blindness and the usual goodness in the form of mind affecting spells works well.
ya I did speak with the DM. hes the one who challenged me to make this char in the first place. the campaign is ver casual and comedic so the build really wouldent disrupt anything too much.
I agree that it would be really stupid to be able to completely neutralize a class but all classes seem to have a disadvantage somewhere. at first i was wondering what would stop a gunslinger from taking a 5ft step back but i could pick up the step up feat.
Master Summoner with the +2 Initiative trait and Improve Initiative.
With Superior Summoning and Augment Summoning and a rod of reach spell, you can summon A LOT of tough melee monster right next to those Gunslingers.Go with a Gnome and up your Dex, Cha and Con.
Start combat by spamming monsters NEXT to the gunslingers.
Or better yet have them appear 15 feet away and charge the gunslingers.The gunslingers would soon find themselves facing monsters every which way.
And remember Summoned monsters DO NOT disappear if the summoner goes down... and they last for Mins as a Master Summoner.For extra effect have a fellow Druid/Ranger get Entangle up under those Gunslingers so they are really limited in movement.
Obscuring Mist is also great. Check if there are items that can give you similar effects.
Actually i was thinking somthing along the lines of the monk idea but after hearing that idea...well it sounds like an amazing amount of fun and it sounds effective in case the DM descides to innovate.
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Actually i was thinking somthing along the lines of the monk idea but after hearing that idea...well it sounds like an amazing amount of fun and it sounds effective in case the DM descides to innovate.Master Summoner with the +2 Initiative trait and Improve Initiative.
With Superior Summoning and Augment Summoning and a rod of reach spell, you can summon A LOT of tough melee monster right next to those Gunslingers.Go with a Gnome and up your Dex, Cha and Con.
Start combat by spamming monsters NEXT to the gunslingers.
Or better yet have them appear 15 feet away and charge the gunslingers.The gunslingers would soon find themselves facing monsters every which way.
And remember Summoned monsters DO NOT disappear if the summoner goes down... and they last for Mins as a Master Summoner.For extra effect have a fellow Druid/Ranger get Entangle up under those Gunslingers so they are really limited in movement.
Obscuring Mist is also great. Check if there are items that can give you similar effects.
Don't forget to lay down (giving you a +4 AC against ranged attacks) and stay hidden (cover can grant you an additional +4 AC and concealment gives them a miss chance of up to 50%) while you cast your summons.
Use Fog Cloud wands or scrolls to create cover. Creatures further than 5' away can't use sight to locate targets and grants total concealment (50% miss chance). Meanwhile, your summons might have scent to locate the gunslingers or simply be outside of the fog's 20' radius and find them by sight. Darkness spells can also do this.
Or if you are a druid you can Wildshape into something with the scent ability.
There are a number of spells that specifically target guns and gunpowder in the Ultimate Combat.
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This really doesn't sound like a healthy game to enter, or a healthy way to enter a game.
But...
Archers outstrip gunslingers on the matter of range. Gunslingers only get to target touch AC within a certain range. Archers don't even worry about that element and can focus on building themselves up in other areas.
Also, a bag of pugwampis, as much as I loathe saying it.
Still, if this conflict is the big thing going into this campaign, I don't see it heading anywhere fun for all involved. Different strokes and all that though.
Try a zen archer if u like the monk idea
Try a zen archer if u like the monk ideaSpeaking of monks, Deflect/Snatch Arrows works on bullets.
I think this kind of gun-loving DM would houserule that rather quickly, on the basis of "WTF YOU CAN'T DEFLECT BULLETS" and realism.
Also, inb4 jokes about the DM being the problem being untrue and/or impossible because DM is never wrong. It's always the player who is wrong.
Early or advanced firearms? Rifles are somewhat harder to out-range than muskets.
There are ways to see invisible targets, you know.
And I doubt a Gunslinger's CMD would be very poor, considering their stats.
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There are ways to see invisible targets, you know.
And I doubt a Gunslinger's CMD would be very poor, considering their stats.
Oh, c'mon, don't tell me your imagination is limited to only invisibility... ;)
also: he'd have to give every single NPC-with-a-gun Agile Maneuvers for them to have a CMD worth worrying about. Most gunslingers prioritize STR quite low.
Oh, c'mon, don't tell me your imagination is limited to only invisibility... ;)There are ways to see invisible targets, you know.
And I doubt a Gunslinger's CMD would be very poor, considering their stats.
Absolutely! Here's a list of things one could do to make it more difficult for a ranged opponent to hit a summoner:
Non-Spell Options
Cover: Partial cover grants +2 AC, Soft cover grants +4 AC, and total cover means they can't see you at all!
Concealment: Partial grants 20%; Total grants 50% miss chance! Hide in those bushes! Start a forest fire; smoke grants partial concealment.
Lay prone: +4 AC to ranged weapons.
Wild Stance and Lightning Stance feats grant concealment when you move.
Dimly lit areas grant partial concealment and dark areas grant total concealment to creatures without darkvision.
Use traits and feats to up your stealth skill (Highlander traits give stealth as a class skill and a +1 or +2 in rocky areas, combine with spells to create rocky areas; skill focus feats gives an even higher bonus).
Pick a small race to gain bonuses to Dex and AC.
Use alternate racial traits to gain bonuses to stealth.
Spells using only the CRB and APG
Spells on the Summoner's list:
1) Reduce Person: +2 Dex, +1 AC
2) Cat's Grace: +4 Dex
2) Invisibility: Can't hit what you can't see! And if they happen to target you or your square, it's a 50% miss chance.
2) Spider Climb: Climb up surfaces to get to areas that have cover, like that rock outcropping up there
2) Protection From Arrows: Gain DR/magic against ranged weapons!
2) Wind Wall: Missile weapons that pass through it auto miss (with the exception of large missiles, such as giant-thrown rocks and siege weapons).
3) Fly: Get out of their range! Fly behind cover!
3) Displacement: 50% miss chance
3) Water breathing: jump into the lake so they can't see you. Pop up to the surface to cast more spells
3) Stoneskin: Gain DR 10/adamantium
Requires scrolls or wands or potions:
1st level spells
Obscuring Mist: 20% miss chance if within 20'; 50% miss chance otherwise
Ill Omen: Target rolls twice for attacks rolls and takes the lowest.
Vanish: As invisibility, but 1 rnd/lvl (max 5)
Alter Winds: Potentially create winds that reduce their ranged attacks. Moderate winds give ranged attacks a -2, severe winds a -4, anything stronger than that you can't used ranged weapons (except siege). Be careful that you don't combine this with reduce person on yourself.
Silent Image: recreate yourself elsewhere so they fire at the image, or make an illusion of trees around you, or a wall, or large stones to block their vision. They have to make a will save to see through it only if they interact with it; if the illusion is believable for the scene and they don't interact with the illusion, they may never get a save. Silent Image is one of the best low level spells in the game.
2nd level spells
Chameleon Stride: grants +4 stealth and partial concealment (20% chance)
Wood Shape: Shape those trees around you to have a bigger trunk so you can get cover behind them.
Mirror Image: Create duplicates of you to confuse them!
Fog Cloud: Same as Obscuring Mist, but last longer and can be placed elsewhere
Blur: 20% miss chance
Darkness: Provides total concealment.
Rope Trick: Summon your monsters, then hide inside an extra dimensional space. Pop out to summon more. They can't hit you if they can't see you, and you can't see through rope trick.
3rd level spells
Meld into stone: they can't hit you if they can't see you!
Stone shape: shape rocks to provide better cover
Cloak of Wind: ranged attacks take a -4 to hit you.
Beast Shape I: turn into an animal to blend in with your surroundings. When they're looking for you gnome, they won't care about that eagle or hawk over there, or the dog that ran by (use animals that are common to the terrain).
Other
Metamagic:
Lingering Spell (+1 spell slot) used on a spell that has a visual component grants partial concealment within 20' and total concealment outside of that. Combine with 1st level Minor Image spells or 0 level light spells.
Spells From Ultimate Magic
1) Weaken Powder: reduces range and damage
1) Damp Powder: makes currently loaded powder useless, full round action to clear weapon
2) Destabilize powder: increases misfire chance
3) Flash Fire: makes a firearm give off a burst of light, blinding those nearby
None of those are Summoner spells, so you'll need scrolls or wands.
This really doesn't sound like a healthy game to enter, or a healthy way to enter a game.
But...
Archers outstrip gunslingers on the matter of range. Gunslingers only get to target touch AC within a certain range. Archers don't even worry about that element and can focus on building themselves up in other areas.
Also, a bag of pugwampis, as much as I loathe saying it.
Still, if this conflict is the big thing going into this campaign, I don't see it heading anywhere fun for all involved. Different strokes and all that though.
I can see how it seems that way. even i was a bit afraid of it at first. but the more we talk about it with the DM the more he actually likes the idea. Hes altered the campaign even so that now its about a civil war between races that rely on Technology (specifically guns) and races that rely on magic.
That sounds much better. Still, if he likes guns that much...how fair do you think he is, as a D.M.?
As far as tricks to beat Gunslingers...don't you just need to close with them? They are almost exclusively ranged combatants, so without some kind of barrier to keep you from getting to them, any kind of tough guy should work just fine.
And for the record, arrows and small caliber/low-tech bullets travel at about the same rate. The best of composite and recurve bows actually outstrip the more primitive of muskets.
So yes, if you can catch an arrow, you can catch a bullet.
Wizard. If their gun is full of spiders, problem solved.
Better yet, if the Gunslinger is full of spiders, problem solved and you can caper around in glee.
Seriously, it's okay to get up and caper a bit.
2) Wind Wall: Missile weapons that pass through it auto miss (with the exception of large missiles, such as giant-thrown rocks and siege weapons).
You're right in general, but wind wall also does not deflect bullets, sling or otherwise.
"Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance."
You still get a 30% miss chance, which is pretty nice, but not going to keep you from getting shredded if they get a full attack.
The basic idea of "Summon stuff that can pounce, using a standard action", is appropriate though. Saurian or Cat Shaman (allosaurs + tigers) archetype with the druid would give you similar abilities to the master summoner posited above, but with more HP/defensive spells than the summoner usually has.
-Cross
Huh. I guess we'll have to go with the Word of Power version from Ultimate Magic:
This effect word creates a vertical wall of swirling wind. This wind does not obscure sight, but missile weapons that pass through the wall automatically miss (with the exception of large missiles, such as giant-thrown rocks and siege weapons). Creatures that pass through the wall treat it as difficult terrain and must make a DC 10 Strength check. Failure indicates that the creature cannot pass through the wall this round, but may try again in future rounds. Gases, gaseous breath weapons, and creatures in gaseous form cannot pass through the wall.
OP: Are you allowed to use Words of Power?
Depending on if it's Advanced or Early firearms or not, you can also go with the arcane spells that are pretty much designed to kick Gunslingers in the shins:
Damp Powder, Weaken Powder, Bullet Shield, Destabilizing Powder, Recoil Fire, and Flash Fire.
Ya know. Among the other spells to generally shut down ranged attackers, like Wind Wall.
Blasty caster or fire domain cleric. Ready an action to cast burning hands, fireball, etc. Ready condition is "when I see the gunslinger open his powder horn".
BOOM! No more gunslinger.
Blasty caster or fire domain cleric. Ready an action to cast burning hands, fireball, etc. Ready condition is "when I see the gunslinger open his powder horn".
BOOM! No more gunslinger.
That'd be a houserule. Equipment on a character is protected vs spell effects unless they roll a nat. 1 on a save or the spell specifically states it targets equipment.
I would suggest the disarming monk with high touch AC, the dimensional step chain, and set-up.
OR completely the other end of the spectrum.
The mentioned master summoner. Use a lot of defensive abilities like infisibility, fog, haste, small size, etc...
A summoned meat shield to hide behind.
Then spam creatures all around them.
Swarms would be difficult for gunslingers to deal with.
With swift cast metamagic on the Spark cantrip you could have fun with their powder.
Useful spells could include Mirror Image, Protection from Arrows, Fog Cloud, Stinking Cloud, Cloud Kill, Darkness, Vanish, Invisibility, Grease - to name a few.
Demons with damage resistance and teleport at will should be difficult opponents for gunslingers.
Monks with high touch AC, fast movement, stunning fist should also be difficult opponents.
Heat or chill metal spells? might end things faster.
Cast and hide.
Blasty caster or fire domain cleric. Ready an action to cast burning hands, fireball, etc. Ready condition is "when I see the gunslinger open his powder horn".
BOOM! No more gunslinger.
That'd be a houserule. Equipment on a character is protected vs spell effects unless they roll a nat. 1 on a save or the spell specifically states it targets equipment.
Really? I would have thought that the specific trumps general rule applies.
Exposure to fire, electricity, or a misfire explosion causes black powder to explode—a single keg that explodes in this manner deals 5d6 points of fire damage to anyone within a 20-foot burst (DC 15 Reflex half). Storing black powder in a powder horn protects the powder from explosion.and
Powder Horn: Typically crafted from animal horn, but increasingly crafted from metal in a wide variety of shapes, a powder horn can hold up to 10 doses of black powder. A powder horn protects black powder stored within in it from exposure to fire, electricity, firearm misfires, and water.
Seeing as how the book lists a specific item that protects the powder from fire?
Monk with deflect arrow feat
Deflect Arrows (Combat)
You can knock arrows "and other projectiles off course", preventing them from hitting you.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with an attack from a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Attempting to deflect a ranged attack doesn't count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected.
Seeing as how the book lists a specific item that protects the powder from fire?
As the powder horn specifies it protects it vs. fire, I'd still say you'd need to roll a nat. 1 for the horn to fail.
If they had a open keg of black powder that they were carrying then perhaps "boom". A carried closed keg might not explode because the powder is not "exposed" to flame. As a attended carried item I'd think the roll nat. 1 rule applies.
This would of course be up to each individual DM. Otherwise spells like fireball that say they melt metal or ignite items would leave PC's running around with clothing and hair on fire with melted coin slag in their pockets.
Swarms would be difficult for gunslingers to deal with.
With swift cast metamagic on the Spark cantrip you could have fun with their powder.
Useful spells could include Mirror Image, Protection from Arrows, Fog Cloud, Stinking Cloud, Cloud Kill, Darkness, Vanish, Invisibility, Grease - to name a few.
Demons with damage resistance and teleport at will should be difficult opponents for gunslingers.
Monks with high touch AC, fast movement, stunning fist should also be difficult opponents.
spark will not work as powder horrn is attended odject ie on gunslinger.
DESCRIPTIONYou can make an unattended Fine flammable object catch on fire. This works as if you were using flint and steel except that you can use spark in any sort of weather and it takes much less time to actually ignite an object
You could shatter their powder horn... no black powder means they just have very expensive clubs and if you would cast spark on the now un-attended black powder at their feet then I could see it blowing up
You could shatter their powder horn... no black powder means they just have very expensive clubs and if you would cast spark on the now un-attended black powder at their feet then I could see it blowing up
If you are going to sunder something...why not the gun?
I think I'd go with a monk with disarm feats. Even a Zen Archer would be good, it only takes two feats to do the improved disarm and greater disarm. Then you have the option of blowing him away at range, or moving up and taking his gun away. Go for the highest CMB you can, and have a bag of holding or something to drop the guns into after you take them. Since you'd be disarming with your bare hand (off hand, other hand hasthe bow in it), you can immediately pick it up and toss it in the bag next round. Also, if I remember, there's a feat that lets you disarm with a ranged attack? You could disarm with your bow. :)
2) Wind Wall: Missile weapons that pass through it auto miss (with the exception of large missiles, such as giant-thrown rocks and siege weapons).
You're right in general, but wind wall also does not deflect bullets, sling or otherwise.
"Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance."
You still get a 30% miss chance, which is pretty nice, but not going to keep you from getting shredded if they get a full attack.
The basic idea of "Summon stuff that can pounce, using a standard action", is appropriate though. Saurian or Cat Shaman (allosaurs + tigers) archetype with the druid would give you similar abilities to the master summoner posited above, but with more HP/defensive spells than the summoner usually has.
-Cross
Huh. I guess we'll have to go with the Word of Power version from Ultimate Magic:
This effect word creates a vertical wall of swirling wind. This wind does not obscure sight, but missile weapons that pass through the wall automatically miss (with the exception of large missiles, such as giant-thrown rocks and siege weapons). Creatures that pass through the wall treat it as difficult terrain and must make a DC 10 Strength check. Failure indicates that the creature cannot pass through the wall this round, but may try again in future rounds. Gases, gaseous breath weapons, and creatures in gaseous form cannot pass through the wall.OP: Are you allowed to use Words of Power?
Ya if we want to. like i said the campaign is very very lax.
I'm imagining a character like The Sphinx from Mystery Men who can cut guns in half with his mind.