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So we can agree that Caustic Slur is, in fact, the worst feat?
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So we can agree that Caustic Slur is, in fact, the worst feat?
Yes.
- You spend a Standard Action to do it.
- It does not actually force the target to attack you.
- It actively makes your opponent better, at no benefit to you. Or will it be argued that taking Power Attack, or gaining the next increment of Power Attack, makes your character weaker?
- It only works on a narrow range of targets (Favored Enemies intelligent enough to be insulted)
- It requires the player to be a Gnome Ranger, a poor race for that class.
And that thread is pretty sad, and typical: People rushing to defend the indefensible. SKR trying to justify what should simply have been admitted to be a mistake, and making the marketing department's job just a little bit harder with every post.
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Also, Reciprocal Gyre existed to punish mages for being heavily buffed with spells. I highly encourage porting the spell over to PF, btw.OUCH!! Yes, I think I will be taking that into my arsenal, that could be an interesting spell to toss against my PCs... >:)
Eeesh, I remember first looking at that spell and thinking about how many spells I had on my PC at the time as full time buffs. Overland flight, mage armor, all the 'heart of' spells, and whatever other short term buffs were going on. Glad my GMs never found it...
Sadly, I am soon going to be showing this to my GM... though, in fairness, it probably won't be until I'm immortal...
I do wish it was more tied to the number of spells and level of spells on the target. My biggest issue w/ Reciprocal Gyre is that it has the exact same nasty status effect and duration whether you have a enlarge person and nothing else active, or if you can form the entire alphabet with all your active spells. And really, it's the status effect that's the worst part of it, though I have had characters who would eat the entire 25d12 damage given their prodigious amount of buffs.
I can see one place where Caustic Slur might help: when an opponent uses touch attacks that don't do damage and so can't benefit from PA. But given that it's a Will save and most touch attackers will be casters, and all the other limitations, it's still awful.
I can see one place where Caustic Slur might help: when an opponent uses touch attacks that don't do damage and so can't benefit from PA. But given that it's a Will save and most touch attackers will be casters, and all the other limitations, it's still awful.
A standar action for the enemy to remain the same (since PA do not work with rays) is not helpful.
Sure, it doesn't. Nor with bows. But it appears you MUST use it, thus you take a -1 but no add'l damage.
The Caustic Slur thread is filled with real gems from SKR.
Can't say I'm crying in my beer over him not handling any mechanics anymore.
I might need a stein for that. IS anyone handling mechanics anymore?
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Craft Ooze. While not the worst feat ever it's not that good. Waste money on equipment to craft a non-intelligent ooze with no loyalty to the person who created it. So unless your a npc or trying to escape. I don't think party members are going to be too happy with a out of control ooze thrown into their midst. One of those feats with great and interesting fluff. Yet rules wise falls very short IMO.
Craft Ooze. While not the worst feat ever it's not that good. Waste money on equipment to craft a non-intelligent ooze with no loyalty to the person who created it. So unless your a npc or trying to escape. I don't think party members are going to be too happy with a out of control ooze thrown into their midst. One of those feats with great and interesting fluff. Yet rules wise falls very short IMO.
No way. A couple of glass vials, throw anything, and a good strength score and you can WRECK encounters with this.
You could also team up with a character with the ooze whisperer feat to make the oozes loyal to you. In a recent PFS scenario Flutter befriended one of the local oozes, buffed it up and sent it to defend the paladin.
Sadly, I am soon going to be showing this to my GM... though, in fairness, it probably won't be until I'm immortal...
Actually, I went ahead and showed her. If it's used against my main Kingmaker character (the King), it'll ALWAYS deal a minimum of 12d12 (13d12, if you round up) due to constant magical effects on him. He's a Mage with a CON of 10...
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No way. A couple of glass vials, throw anything, and a good strength score and you can WRECK encounters with this.
As long the other members of your group are not in the way. Then sure you can wreck encounters. Otherwise the ooze you just threw into the mix is attacking anybody it comes across. It has no intellignece or loyalty to anyone. As well why bother wasting time and money crafting a ooze if by the rules one cannot control it.
You could also team up with a character with the ooze whisperer feat to make the oozes loyal to you. In a recent PFS scenario Flutter befriended one of the local oozes, buffed it up and sent it to defend the paladin.
There is no ooze whisperer feat on the SRD. All I found was a extraordinary ability that the Slime Lord has at first level: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/alluria-publishi ng/slime-lord : http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/alluria-publishi ng/slime-lord Even the abilitty does not make oozes easier to control http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/alluria-publishi ng/slime-lord
If the point of caustic slur was to get a monster to attack you, then it should give a will save or something, with failure meaning the monster must attack you (if possible).
Or, you could do something like give the feat-user an attack of opportunity against its target whenever the target attacks anyone else.
You mean like Antagonize?
Antagonize was one of the most broken feats a martial could get, because, pre-pre-errata, you could force a Wizard to charge you with his quarterstaff and attempt to bonk you on the head. If you made the Intimidate check, he had to try and hit you with a melee attack. It took 3 erratas to get it where it now, which allows archers/casters to either target you with an attack, or include you in the spell area.
The original Antagonize was even worse because the DC of the Intimadate check was simply the CR of the creature, so they errata'd it to 10+CR, but left in forcing wizards/archer to melee attack. Then the third errata added in the rest.
I actually kinda liked there being a martial ability that was specifically deadly to casters, but shrug. The DC was too easy, certainly, but it was a good idea. Should have just been a will save and therefore comparable to the mind-affecting things that a wizard can throw at you.
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Well, I Am glad that antagonize was nerfed. Actually, I would have prefered the feat to get totally erased form the books. It was silly to start with and basically do not solve anthing, fighting cheese with an even stinkier cheese doe snot sound reasonable to me.
There are certainly better ways to do it (maybe some real martial debuffs that target the caster's likely paltry CMD, nudge nudge hint hint shameless advertising) but at least it was something. Something that was, of course, nerfed because martials having options other than full attack is the greatest threat to the sanctity of Pathfinder.
There is no ooze whisperer feat on the SRD. All I found was a extraordinary ability that the Slime Lord has at first level
My characters lurk in dark, obscure corners of the rules that will [dr orpheus]SEAR YOUR MIND DOWN TO THE SKULL![/dr orpheus]
Heh. I had that book in print and i didn't even know that feat existed till it came up on a message board.
Lets you wild empathy, charm animal, and dominate animal oozes. That and create ooze could be nasty.
Well, I Am glad that antagonize was nerfed. Actually, I would have prefered the feat to get totally erased form the books. It was silly to start with and basically do not solve anthing, fighting cheese with an even stinkier cheese doe snot sound reasonable to me.I'm not seeing how it's "even stinkier cheese". I mean even if you get the ability to work exactly as you want it still only maybe gives you a possible chance of being able to beat the wizard.
Spend a feat and a standard action to probably get the chance to attack a wizard once doesn't smell particularly cheesy.
I think you're undervaluing the feat a bit. If a Wizard got antagonized he had basically lost. One round of putting yourself in a terrible tactical position can kill in any turn based game. It's practically a save or lose!
Wait... that term seems kinda familiar. Don't we usually use that to describe strategies that wizards and other casters employ in order to conquer an encounter through a crippling status effect rather than direct damage? Hmm.
The antagonize feat used to allow someone like a Barbarian to lock a wizard into charging him for two rounds. That's two rounds the Wizard wasn't doing anything constructive. He runs up to the Barbarian, and takes a swing. Guess what? It's now the Barbarians turn and here comes the RAGESMASHSMASHSMASH *Dead Wizard*
There were many PFS Scenarios that were just curb-stomped by this feat because the martial would Antagonize the BBEG who, instead of hanging back and casting spells or supporting his minions or whatever, would simply rush forward and die to a full attack from the party.
Wait... that term seems kinda familiar. Don't we usually use that to describe strategies that wizards and other casters employ in order to conquer an encounter through a crippling status effect rather than direct damage? Hmm.
No no this is completely different. Antagonize is only single target.
The antagonize feat used to allow someone like a Barbarian to lock a wizard into charging him for two rounds. That's two rounds the Wizard wasn't doing anything constructive. He runs up to the Barbarian, and takes a swing. Guess what? It's now the Barbarians turn and here comes the RAGESMASHSMASHSMASH *Dead Wizard*I'm just not sure why that's so much worse than the wizard doing the same thing.
Probably because skill DCs are trivial for anyone who even tries to focus on them, and it completely shuts down an enemy.
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Wait... that term seems kinda familiar. Don't we usually use that to describe strategies that wizards and other casters employ in order to conquer an encounter through a crippling status effect rather than direct damage? Hmm.
No no this is completely different. Antagonize is only single target.
The antagonize feat used to allow someone like a Barbarian to lock a wizard into charging him for two rounds. That's two rounds the Wizard wasn't doing anything constructive. He runs up to the Barbarian, and takes a swing. Guess what? It's now the Barbarians turn and here comes the RAGESMASHSMASHSMASH *Dead Wizard*I'm just not sure why that's so much worse than the wizard doing the same thing.
Because a Barbarian can take a full attack, a Wizard, usually, cannot. It also worked in the opposite way; a BBEG martial would Antagonize the party wizard and kill him with a full attack.
One of the problems wast the feat was, essentially, non-magical mind control. There is absolutely nothing one could say, or do, that would result in a 15+ level wizard eschewing everything he knows to march up to that hulking badass with a sword, to try and knock him on the head. Guys who have mastered the energies of the world to reshape it to their whim, loose all control of themselves to put themsleves in the most dangerous spot they could be, all because that hulking guy flipped him the bird or something.
So we can agree that Caustic Slur is, in fact, the worst feat?Yes.
- You spend a Standard Action to do it.
- It does not actually force the target to attack you.
- It actively makes your opponent better, at no benefit to you. Or will it be argued that taking Power Attack, or gaining the next increment of Power Attack, makes your character weaker?
- It only works on a narrow range of targets (Favored Enemies intelligent enough to be insulted)
- It requires the player to be a Gnome Ranger, a poor race for that class.And that thread is pretty sad, and typical: People rushing to defend the indefensible. SKR trying to justify what should simply have been admitted to be a mistake, and making the marketing department's job just a little bit harder with every post.
Where did SKR defend it?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Cave druids can also use wild empathy on oozes, so there are ways to make that crafted ooze your buddy. A feat that is functional for reasonable niche builds doesn't seem like "worst ever," just situational. Cave druid is a perfectly cromulent druid archetype.
I dislike Antagonize greatly, for several reasons. First, it's not a "save or suck." The skill DC is so low it's pretty much just a "suck and you can do nothing about it." There is no normal way to make your character more resistant to Antagonize - the DC only depends on your level and Wis score. You can't take any feats, invest in any magic items other than a Wis headband or book, or really do anything to make yourself less antagonizable.
It's silly from an in-universe perspective. It uses Intimidate - so basically the character is so scary that we want to attack it? So now we have villagers, fleeing the giant dragon terrorizing their village, stop to throw a rock at it? Huh?
It's even more broken if used by the bad guy's minions. Give a BBEG a bunch of mooks who can easily make the DC on a 1-2(pretty easy to build for). They can be APL -5 or so, but make there be a bunch of them scattered around. Now the PCs are forced to attack minions every turn, ignoring the actual villain as he burns the orphanage or does his evil ritual.
Oh, and for those whining about "martials can't have nice things," Antagonize was always better for a wizard to take anyway. It's much more effective when the foe can't actually get at you, such as when you're flying with mirror images up.
Where did SKR defend it?So we can agree that Caustic Slur is, in fact, the worst feat?Yes.
- You spend a Standard Action to do it.
- It does not actually force the target to attack you.
- It actively makes your opponent better, at no benefit to you. Or will it be argued that taking Power Attack, or gaining the next increment of Power Attack, makes your character weaker?
- It only works on a narrow range of targets (Favored Enemies intelligent enough to be insulted)
- It requires the player to be a Gnome Ranger, a poor race for that class.And that thread is pretty sad, and typical: People rushing to defend the indefensible. SKR trying to justify what should simply have been admitted to be a mistake, and making the marketing department's job just a little bit harder with every post.
How the @#$* do you craft an Ooze? Do you mate with his mommy?
In this post.Where did SKR defend it?So we can agree that Caustic Slur is, in fact, the worst feat?Yes.
- You spend a Standard Action to do it.
- It does not actually force the target to attack you.
- It actively makes your opponent better, at no benefit to you. Or will it be argued that taking Power Attack, or gaining the next increment of Power Attack, makes your character weaker?
- It only works on a narrow range of targets (Favored Enemies intelligent enough to be insulted)
- It requires the player to be a Gnome Ranger, a poor race for that class.And that thread is pretty sad, and typical: People rushing to defend the indefensible. SKR trying to justify what should simply have been admitted to be a mistake, and making the marketing department's job just a little bit harder with every post.
*sigh* Yet another feat that is designed to be terrible because it doesn't involve magic in any way. I swear, the more of the splat-book content I see, the more I think the "casters are broken / Paizo hates martials" crowd might actually have a point.
Well, I Am glad that antagonize was nerfed. Actually, I would have prefered the feat to get totally erased form the books. It was silly to start with and basically do not solve anthing, fighting cheese with an even stinkier cheese doe snot sound reasonable to me.I'm not seeing how it's "even stinkier cheese". I mean even if you get the ability to work exactly as you want it still only maybe gives you a possible chance of being able to beat the wizard.
Spend a feat and a standard action to probably get the chance to attack a wizard once doesn't smell particularly cheesy.
I mentioned his mon then the int 26, wis 16, 500 year old wizard decided that charging me with a quarterstaff was the best idea ever, right everthing fine with that.
Oh, and for those whining about "martials can't have nice things," Antagonize was always better for a wizard to take anyway. It's much more effective when the foe can't actually get at you, such as when you're flying with mirror images up.
Not to mention taht, IMHO, it was not nice, it was silly.
It does sound like a spell. The kind without a saving throw.
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Rogue Talents. There are a lot of iffy ones, so might as well mention a few new ones.
Climbing Stunt That's right, you can take a -10 to climbing! Did you know ninjas get a climb speed of 20?
Disabling stunt As a standard action, you can attempt to do a disable device check(you want your tools or you take penalties btw) against a constructs(likely high) CMD. In turn you penetrate DR! Also, your standing next to it after this and it only works if your dealing sneak attack damage.
Flying Stunt As a fly check, when attacking from higher ground, you can deal bonus damage equal to your dex as a swift action! Also, this only works on a flight, you need to be able to fly to get it at all, and it only works on a charge action and creatures immune to sneak attack are just immune to it.
I mean, at least a few of those give bonuses, but my gosh... that first one. You have to make a check, against something that scales directly against you, the foe gets bonuses to the check, and you can fall prone and get just... Oh my gosh. You can derp and slip on a banana peel, in combat!
Acrobatic Stunt. Its a feat (equivalent) that drops you prone so your attacker gets a +4 against you, x/day! Only works while flanked, and the DC is the higher of the two guys trying to murderize you.
I have no idea why that has a per day limit. It doesn't make any sense.
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They had to put the limit in so whatever poor fools actually tried to use the talent would eventually be put out of their misery.
They had to put the limit in so whatever poor fools actually tried to use the talent would eventually be put out of their misery.
The curb stomp from falling prone while flanked would do that pretty quickly without any x/day. Giving it x/day might actually save their lives.
It is a powerful ability to not get flanked, it is not like rogues have acces to improved uncanny dodge or somethingAcrobatic Stunt. Its a feat (equivalent) that drops you prone so your attacker gets a +4 against you, x/day! Only works while flanked, and the DC is the higher of the two guys trying to murderize you.I have no idea why that has a per day limit. It doesn't make any sense.
*facepalm
So it's a talent that you might want to use when fighting rogues several levels higher than you.
No need for a per day limit, it'll barely come up.
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Marthkus, I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with you. We're just being snarky about it because taking the trick talents with any degree of seriousness will get you a one way ticket to crazy town.
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Rogue Talents. There are a lot of iffy ones, so might as well mention a few new ones.
** spoiler omitted **
I mean, at least a few of those give bonuses, but my gosh... that first one. You have to make a check, against something that scales directly against you, the foe gets bonuses to the check, and you can fall prone and get just... Oh my gosh. You can derp and slip on a banana peel, in combat!
The new Rogue guide on these boards (written by Shaman Bond I believe) actually rates Disabling Stunt highly. His argument: Constructs often have high DR and SR if not outright immunity to magic, so the fighter and the wizard both often find themselves at a loss. With this, the rogue actually gets to be the hero in a situation nobody else can deal with.
The new Rogue guide on these boards (written by Shaman Bond I believe) actually rates Disabling Stunt highly. His argument: Constructs often have high DR and SR if not outright immunity to magic, so the fighter and the wizard both often find themselves at a loss. With this, the rogue actually gets to be the hero in a situation nobody else can deal with.Rogue Talents. There are a lot of iffy ones, so might as well mention a few new ones.
** spoiler omitted **
I mean, at least a few of those give bonuses, but my gosh... that first one. You have to make a check, against something that scales directly against you, the foe gets bonuses to the check, and you can fall prone and get just... Oh my gosh. You can derp and slip on a banana peel, in combat!
Not a fan of it. It devours action economy(the one you use to attack), your Wizard should have an SR-no spell(snowball, or preferably, create pit), and your fighter should be roflsmashing it in the same time it takes you to get started because fighters FIGHT things and at higher levels he's smashing through because he bypasses adamantine anyway. It also only works if your able to deal your sneak attack damage, and it gives the golem a chance to retaliate.
As I said, at least it gives a plausible bonus. Acrobatic stunt was the real star here, imo. Its fully capable of getting you murdered and making it harder to get away. That's just rough.