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I have been told the following reasons.
In PFS it is too hard to get spells added to your books (so you will end up with a fairly anemic selection of spells to chose from).
The rushed PFS play environment makes determining a spell list too time consuming (so will probably go with a standard selection anyway).
The PFS modules don'e usually allow enough information to intelligently pick a customized spell selection (so will probably go with a standard selection anyway).
Can't craft anything.
I have a high level wizard PFS character, and I have seen quite a few. Its probably a region specific thing.
Scenarios used to contain the odd scroll, which you might want to copy, but not a huge amount, and they were all from the core book. More recently we have seen scenarios with enemy wizards in them that have complete spellbooks as treasure. The biggest boost to your spell selection though is when you sit down with another PC wizard at the table, especially a higher level one.
As you mention the problem is having enough useful information from the mission brief and the faction mission to base your spell choices on. Plus the fact that many missions happen immediately giving you little time to prepare. You also can't spend any notable table time sorting your spell selection out as there isn't any to spare.
The key is to be prepared with a core load out and know your spell book really well, and of course leave empty slots where you can.
I haven't found lack of crafting to be a significant drawback.
Its also worth noting a scenario cannot assume a wizard will be present at all - so having lots of scrolls isn't necessary. A bonded item wizard can always cast just that one special spell required.
I suspect that applying a large number of GM credit chronicles has been to the disadvantage of my wizard's spell list. With GM credit you don't get the benefit of sitting down with other wizards and you don't get to copy from spellbooks or scrolls found (unless anyone knows this has been clarified anywhere?)
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Its also worth noting a scenario cannot assume a wizard will be present at all - so having lots of scrolls isn't necessary. A bonded item wizard can always cast just that one special spell required.
I've seen/run more than a few that did assume that a Rogue and seperately a Bard where present. As a matter of opinion, I honestly think that treasure and encounters should e based around the Core 4 (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard), and everyone else should be less catered too.
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As someone with a level 12 Wizard (one of 2 in the region I'm in, I believe), I can attest to the fact that they're not very popular in PFS.
Some reasons:
- No crafting
- No permanency
- No contingency
- Abysmal low level play
- All the bookkeeping involved with having a Wizard (I have 7 spellbooks books on mine...)Having said that, once I hit level 6 or so, I really started to enjoy the Wizard, and it's just getting better. He's a bag of tricks that contains a bag of tricks. It's awesome.
Sorry for the late reply, but where is Contingency banned? I could not find it in the Guidelines or Additional Resources.
Thanks in advance for the assist.
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Wizards aren't as gear dependent as other classes, so they should have money to buy strategic spells for their book. That's not the issue. The issue is the whole "leave a slot or two open" strategy is nice, but still leaves wizards really unable to function to their fullest in PFS. Just my thoughts on it.
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Don't forget the "new shinies" factor. Pathfinder has a lot of exotic spellcasting options such as oracle, witch, summoner, magus. You lost a lot of wizards in particularly to the magus because they had a swordfighting itch to scratch.
I think there may be something to that. My first PFS character was a wizard and I used to see quite a few other wizards, but that was before the APG came out.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Bear in mind that the cheat cards aren't a legal source. They're handy, you betcha, but you still need to bring the Bestiary (or whichever source) or legal pdf's to the table.
(I brought my Summoner to a table last year, and the GM -- rightly -- insisted that I needed to have a legal source for my summoned critters. Fortunately, I have the bestiary on my iPad.)
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As someone with a level 12 Wizard (one of 2 in the region I'm in, I believe), I can attest to the fact that they're not very popular in PFS.
Some reasons:
- No crafting
- No permanency
- No contingency
- Abysmal low level play
- All the bookkeeping involved with having a Wizard (I have 7 spellbooks books on mine...)Having said that, once I hit level 6 or so, I really started to enjoy the Wizard, and it's just getting better. He's a bag of tricks that contains a bag of tricks. It's awesome.
Sorry for the late reply, but where is Contingency banned? I could not find it in the Guidelines or Additional Resources.
Thanks in advance for the assist.
It's not banned per se, but as it's a spell created by a PC, the effect ends at the end of a scenario. Quite often you're rudely awakened and sent off to adventure in the middle of the night right as the scenario starts, without time to re-prepare spells or cast things like Contingency. These things make it untenable, if legal.
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... I suspect that applying a large number of GM credit chronicles has been to the disadvantage of my wizard's spell list. With GM credit you don't get the benefit of sitting down with other wizards and you don't get to copy from spellbooks or scrolls found (unless anyone knows this has been clarified anywhere?)
I was specifically told you can't do that anyway. That would count as PC buying or trading with each other, which is prohibited. Is this not true?
Just found this topic. This point may have been mentionned so sorry for the repeat.
I asked my players why they didn't play wizards. The responses were....
1- Sorcerers cast more spells per level even if the selection is more limited.
2- Sorcerers get familiars also
3- Sorcerers can also use metamagic feats
4- We never made a big deal about the wizard spell books so the acquisition of spells was never an issue, but it seems tedious if you apply the rules as is.
So they don't see the point of bothering with a mage when a sorcerer works just as well with more spells to cast per level.
My campaign has the same die cap limit for spells as in AD&D, i.e. certain spells have no die cap limit. Even that didn't seem to arouse any interest for the ol' mage class.... pity!
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Bear in mind that the cheat cards aren't a legal source. They're handy, you betcha, but you still need to bring the Bestiary (or whichever source) or legal pdf's to the table.
Yes, the requirement that you carry what could be litterly 100lbs of source material if you don't have to have everything in an electronic format.
Sorry guys, can't play today. I threw my back out....again. (And yes, I have in fact thrown my back out and dislocated my shoulder carrying too many books.)
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... sitting down with other wizards ... copy from spellbooks or scrolls found ...I was specifically told you can't do that anyway. That would count as PC buying or trading with each other, which is prohibited. Is this not true?
During the game (most often at the end of the adventure, before the GM officially closes the 'game session'), PC wizards can agree to copy spells from each other's spellbooks, or scribe scrolls/spellbooks found in the scenario into their spellbooks, following the normal rules & costs of writing spells into the book. Other classes with similar 'records' of spells (e.g. witches, alchemists) can do similar, as allowed in the general PFRPG rules.
This can only be done during the session; after the session is closed, access to any recovered magical treasure (or fellow PCs' spellbooks) ends.
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This can only be done during the session; after the session is closed, access to any recovered magical treasure (or fellow PCs' spellbooks) ends.
Right, but this requires not only running into another wizard character, but that player then not swapping out to another character. "Oh.. a wizard, a cleric and a rogue, i'll play my fighter then..."
My first PFS character was a barbarian 1, wizard x who finally died at 10th level. At low levels her bonus hp from being a barbarian masked her Con of 10, but it caught up with her eventually... Back then, a few years ago, there were lots of wizards around and her selection of spells was huge. She positively hoovered them up in case she needed to use her arcane bond on them. At low levels she just raged and smacked stuff, but as she levelled up the barbarian level became more and more useless. Overall she worked, but she should have been a little less extreme in the stats.
I'm now playing my second wizard who just hit 3rd and is more cerebral than my first. I've found that I'm delaying a lot in encounters when the melee types have things under control, and although I have a wand of MM I'm holding back on using it unless necessary. What she does to make up for being a part time combatant is handle all the knowledge checks as she has those covered, and with a songbird familiar and the right trait she's not too shabby in diplomacy either. I'm riding on the coat tails of the other characters at the moment, but she'll make up for it later. I haven't seen another wizard for ages though, that I can recall.
Edit - I tell a lie, I've seen one other.
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I've always felt the wizard is too inflexible. He has this book of cool spells he collects, but he has to pick only a few at the beginning of each day. Furthermore, since 'copies' of the more common, useful spells (such as magic missiles) take up extra 'slots,' it is less likely that he'll memorize the less common ones that are really cool to have when the party needs them. (Jump, for example, only comes into play once every few session when party faces a chasm or something...Identify when the whole party fails a Spellcraft check on item).
The fact they cannot scribe scrolls in PFS is huge. Sure, they can buy scrolls are retail and cast off those, but gold is tight in PFS. I would normally advise new wizards in PF to consider scribing scrolls of their lesser used spells, so they have that flexibility they are well known for without having to actually dedicate daily memorized slots to them (leaving those free for more common spells). On the bright side, I do feel that bond deal that lets wizards recall one spell from their book a day does help a LOT. Most days, one of those lesser known spells is all you need.
Because this cuts into Spont casting power curve a bit, I allow them additional 'spells known' based on their primary stat, the way a wizard gets more spells per day.
All of this would seem to make casters more OP'd versus melee and other non-magic classes. However, in practice, it hasn't worked out that way. Non-magic classes in my campaigns, even up to level 16 now, are still very dominating at what they do. There hasn't been any power envy over this house rule at my tables.
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I'm now playing my second wizard who just hit 3rd and is more cerebral than my first. I've found that I'm delaying a lot in encounters when the melee types have things under control, and although I have a wand of MM I'm holding back on using it unless necessary. What she does to make up for being a part time combatant is handle all the knowledge checks as she has those covered, and with a songbird familiar and the right trait she's not too shabby in diplomacy either. I'm riding on the coat tails of the other characters at the moment, but she'll make up for it later. I haven't seen another wizard for ages though, that I can recall.
This matches my experiance with the wizard. Low leves I am only a part-time combatant but bring nealy as many skills as a bard or rogue. I take traits that give me access and bonuses to both diplomacy and perception.
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Things get exponentially better, though.
Web and Glitterdust are insanely good, and Level 3 magic at Level 5 is where your power really starts to get good. Casting Haste is basically "Here, we now have a little less than double our DPR now. Good luck, bad guys." And then just sit back and enjoy.
Also, Grease and Color Spray are still incredibly potent spells. Here's my tip: have your Ranged characters ready their actions to attack when a person attempts to move through Grease. While they're moving through Grease, they are flat-footed. If a person is damaged while making an Acrobatics check through Grease (DC 10), they have to make another check at the same DC or fall prone. If you can chain these together, you can keep a target locked down in one square. For Melee characters, cast Enlarge Person on them from a Wand so they can do the same thing as Ranged Characters, striking from a Reached position.
Really, it's all about getting the most mileage out of every single spell slot. Get Wands of Enlarge Person and Mage Armor and Silent Image and Protection from Evil and Obscuring Mist. You can do some really great stuff with just those wands in the early levels.
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Good advice, Zean. The low level wizard can grab sleep and color spray when they're really useful (low level) without worrying that is tying up spell slots at higher level like sorcerers. They are very potent spells. Enlarge person is really useful, though I find that most casters don't understand it's a 1 Round cast deal.
I would add that, especially later on, Knowledge checks are really helpful. By learning about the monster's weaknesses, you can use the right spell(s) for each situation. That's when the wizard really shines.
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It's not banned per se, but as it's a spell created by a PC, the effect ends at the end of a scenario. Quite often you're rudely awakened and sent off to adventure in the middle of the night right as the scenario starts, without time to re-prepare spells or cast things like Contingency. These things make it untenable, if legal.As someone with a level 12 Wizard (one of 2 in the region I'm in, I believe), I can attest to the fact that they're not very popular in PFS.
Some reasons:
- No crafting
- No permanency
- No contingency
- Abysmal low level play
- All the bookkeeping involved with having a Wizard (I have 7 spellbooks books on mine...)Having said that, once I hit level 6 or so, I really started to enjoy the Wizard, and it's just getting better. He's a bag of tricks that contains a bag of tricks. It's awesome.
Sorry for the late reply, but where is Contingency banned? I could not find it in the Guidelines or Additional Resources.
Thanks in advance for the assist.
Thanks for the reply. I got panicked for a second there as my sorcerer uses this all the time (you know, extra spell slots and all to burn). If I have a wizard, I probably would not bother with it in PFS.
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... During the game (most often at the end of the adventure, before the GM officially closes the 'game session'), PC wizards can agree to copy spells from each other's spellbooks, or scribe scrolls/spellbooks found in the scenario into their spellbooks, following the normal rules & costs of writing spells into the book. Other classes with similar 'records' of spells (e.g. witches, alchemists) can do similar, as allowed in the general PFRPG rules.
This can only be done during the session; after the session is closed, access to any recovered magical treasure (or fellow PCs' spellbooks) ends.
Next time I'm at the shop, I will try to find that same guy. According to him it was not allowed. Can you tell me where it is addressed? I still can't find it.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Next time I'm at the shop, I will try to find that same guy. According to him it was not allowed. Can you tell me where it is addressed? I still can't find it.
Well, Core Rules outline how to scribe a spell from another source (such as your buddy's spellbook), and PFS uses Core Rules except where otherwise specified. So if that guy can't find the exception, then it's Core Rules.
But if you want more, try the Official FAQ:
"Pages 219–220 in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook discuss how to handle a wizard’s spellbook, but Pathfinder Society makes one adjustment to these rules: a wizard does not have to purchase a scroll found during the course of a scenario in order to copy that scroll into her spellbook. The wizard only needs to spend the time, succeed on the appropriate checks, and spend the amount of gold listed on the table on page 219 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
....
If a wizard, witch, magus, or alchemist PC is adventuring with another PC who could teach them a spell, those PCs may exchange spells on their own terms as long as they make the proper skill checks and their trading of arcane secrets does not interfere with the flow of the game, at the GM's discretion."
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I'm having fun with my level 2 conjurer. He's all about buffing and battlefield control, and he's turned the tide of a battle or two already.
He has a 20 Int, as much for the extra point of save DC as for the spell buff. This benefit follows your whole career remember. As your stats go up, so do the extra spell slots, so it's a gift that keeps on giving. Also It was fun to watch my GM's face the first time I told him to roll a DC 17 save on a grease spell "would you go over that for me? HOW is that so high?" And what with skill points, INT is one of the best stats in the game, so who's complaining?
By taking "bitter nobleman" trait, you can become almost as good at sneaking as a rogue even without magic, and since I can shift 8x per day, I can move, cast a spell and duck under cover all in one round, wich means I'm often the last one standing in a close fight.
I've played wizards a lot over the years, and I never really gave the loss of scribe scroll a thought. Part of that is play style, but mostly I'm a hoarder, and I'd rather save up my money for a few big items rather than fritter it away on small ones. I just bought a cloak of elvenkind (from a module) so I'm the best sneaker in the party. My next goals are a handy haversack and a blessed book. These will take care of my horrible encumbrance (9 Strength), and make learning spells even cheaper.
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If you want to make your GM cringe even more, take the alchemical grease from Adventurer's Armory and use it as a material component of your grease spell. It adds +1 to the DC giving you a DC 18. That and Greater Spell Focus at level 3 gives you a DC 19 :)
As for the resurrected thread. I see wizards a lot in my area. YMMV but at the last convention I went to, there were 3 wizards at one of my tables, including myself.
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level 1 human wizard damage
Wizard damage options (varisian tattoo, + spell spec in 1 spell)
Magic missile (2d4+2)+1 (minimum 5 maxiumum 11) (auto hit single target)
Burning hands (4d4) +1 (minimum 5 maximum 17) (reflex for half cone)
Acid splash or Ray of frost with alchemical focus component (1d3+1)+1 (minimum 3 maximum 5) (ranged touch cantrip)
Ear piercing scream(2d6) +1 (minimum 3 maximum 13) (fort save for half, and daze effect)
You get the cantrip and any one of the other spells with spell spec on it at level 1 (burning hands or ear piercing scream are my prefered options). Your caster level on your best spell is 4, for even more damage take the following traits
Magical lineage (scorching ray)
Wayang spell hunter (scorching ray)At level 3 you pick up empower spell and your throwing out (8d6*1.5 + 1) damage with scorching ray or you could adopt a more balanced approach and get
Magical lineage (burning hands)
Wayang spell hunter (fireball)At level 3 you deal 6d4+1 damage with burning hands and at level 5 your looking at 8d6+2 damage on fireball (toss in a empower rod for 9k and your throwing out 26-65 damage at level 5), and thats not counting the crowd control spells you still can have because you still have high DC's on all spells (due to your high int). Doing this your 6th level could be a 1 level dip into sorc for primal/red dragon cross blooded (+2 damage per dice on fire spells) or elemental/dragon of choice (free elemental spell to 1 type and +1 damage per dice) or just keep going more wizard levels for higher spell levels
If you want damage a wizard can bring it, plus he can also do alot of other things, if you push for damage as a wizard you can easily marginalise your parties melee. Plus you still have other options.
The main reason Wizards dont focus on blasting is because there is a belief that blasting is subpar compared to control spells, both options have their flaws and a balanced wizard has a huge list of spells at his command.
For blasty, I'd go flame oracle, mine does a 10d6+30 fireball, before empowerment.
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admixture evboker, dual blooded sorcerer, waves oracle
CHange your blast spells to cold then the oracle slows them if they fail thier saves, add rime spell in there if they take damage they are entangled.
With magical knack, mage tatto, spell spec your caster level is 3 higher for the spell you plan to use. The evoker add half the wiz level in damage, the dual blooded adds 2 for every die of damage if you make it cold(1 with non cold).
Plus you have dark vision.
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admixture evboker, dual blooded sorcerer, waves oracle
CHange your blast spells to cold then the oracle slows them if they fail thier saves, add rime spell in there if they take damage they are entangled.
With magical knack, mage tatto, spell spec your caster level is 3 higher for the spell you plan to use. The evoker add half the wiz level in damage, the dual blooded adds 2 for every die of damage if you make it cold(1 with non cold).
Plus you have dark vision.
*Takes notes*
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Wizards are still crazy powerful, even with Scribe Scroll. I'm playing one for the first time in PFS (illusionist, and some conjuration), and I love it. Almost level 7. The bonded item really helps, and I usually leave some spell slots open for later in the day if needed. The quick study arcane discovery makes it even easier. He usually controls some enemies and let's the damage-dealers focus on a few at a time. I once caught 10 or more ambushing crossbowmen in a well-placed web. Made the whole thing easier.
That said, I only know of one other wizard at our local PFS. He's a conjurer. We've had a hard time getting our wizards to play together to share spells though.
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Venture-Agent, California—Fresno
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We've got a high level wizard in my area who is specialized and optimized around necromancy and either controlling or reanimating undead. Scenarios that feature undead in any capacity are..... ridiculously easy as a result. Nothing like going into the final fight with your... four? undead pets going before you, the ones who were trying to rip your faces off earlier.
Even in scenarios that don't feature undead, he throws around more battlefield control spells than I've ever seen-- creating pits, tossing up walls of force and fire, etc. Generally when I am at the table with that player I mentally just downgrade the CR of everything we are going to be facing.
And when I'm GMing for him, I start wanting to beat him with a book for ruining all my hopes. :P
But to bring it back to the core point of the thread: he's the only wizard I've seen get played past level 1-2, in my area.