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My barbarian/druid can push or drag approximately 165 TONS while in stegosaurus form and raging.
Why is it then, that she can't push over/through a standard stone wall or iron door found in a structure?
The Break DC for such things are 35 and 28, respectively. As a raging stegosaurus she gets a +21 modifier to burst things down with brute strength. Not too shabby, really. But when I consider just how much weight she can move around, I'm left to wonder why an iron door or 1-foot thick masonry wall pose any difficulty at all. There seems to be a disconnect there--especially when one considers that she can do well over 100 damage with her tail, immediately demolishing most anything in her way.
Why can't she simply "run through walls?"
Lord knows I've seen GMs allow T-Rexes to tear through 3-story houses to come after the PCs, why can't my druid similarly smash through a house with ease?
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Well congrats, you have found one of the great weaknesses of 3-PF as compared to 2nd ed. Strength checks, lifting gates and bending bars is so difficult now as compared to the 2nd ed past. The DCs are high, whereas second eds different mechanics meant fighting men, lol, and the like, could pull it off with ease.
Picking locks and disarming traps was also made harder. Some of those dcs...
I think that giving a size bonus equal to that of CMB to such rolls might be reasonable. After all, the mass ration between you and the object is better while you're a stegosaurus than a human.
Also, can't you just take 10 in most situations? That'd let you go through walls, though you'd have to shove a few times to get through an iron door - which seems reasonable.
Also, as to why, I think it's because of the increasing "average level" assumed. In earlier editions, you made it hard for 3rd level characters because that's what a standard hero was. In 3.X levels seemed to generally increase, so now they balanced it so it should be hard for a 10th level character. But I'm just guessing.
There are already size bonuses within the rules. For a huge stegosaurus, it's a +8 (included above).
Convince your GM that it is like an Overrun.
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Push/drag weight isn't a very good measure of what kind of damage you can do.
To move 165 tons with a coefficient of friction of 0.6 across a horizontal surface takes about 880,000 newtons of force. If all that force were concentrated into a 2'x2' area, that gives about 2,400,000 pascals of pressure. That's not enough to break human skin (15,000,000 pascals). That's "put your head against a wall and push" though.
Whether or not that could shear the nails holding the wall down is a separate question that I don't quite know enough to answer. (Shear strength is still measured in pascals, but I don't know what area to apply the force to to compare.)
There are two types of people who are going to find a "problem" like this with the RAW:
1. People who are too inflexible to understand that the rules are meant for certain situations, but can easily be set aside where common sense should dictate an outcome.
2. People who pretend to be so inflexible as #1 so that they can find something to complain needlessly about.
Checking to slam through doors like this, is really for situations where you are pressed for time (such as when a horde of orcs is coming up the passage), or for when it is part of a trap, or you need to otherwise do it in one blow (such as when you want to get it done quickly to minimize noise).
Otherwise, you could consider to simply take time enough to break it down, have your friends join in, or some other thing that doesn't even need to be rolled-for or described.
Obviously, a stegosaurus could break through a wall or door (assuming he can fit in the passage - which is your real issue; conveniently being ducked), in minimal time. That goes without saying, and rolling for it should only be necessary under extenuating circumstances (such as magic, traps, etc.).
If your GM is refusing to use common sense, then that is his problem, not the game's. And if you are choosing to complain instead of asking your GM to use common sense, then it is your problem, and not that of the game.
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Lord knows I've seen GMs allow T-Rexes to tear through 3-story houses to come after the PCs, why can't my druid similarly smash through a house with ease?
Reminded of one of the Jurassic Park movies where a T-Rex sideswipes a bus with its head and takes no visible damage despite crushing in the side of the bus.
DINOS ARE FLESH (and bone). Walls are STONE. You are using an Ineffective Weapon (pg 174, Core Rulebook) and thus are having a hard time. Looked at strictly, the dino using its tail on a stone wall is more likely to damage its tail (stone > bone) than the wall.
Good point, Helic. I'm thinking of mass and strength VS stone, rather than hardness VS stone.
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This reminds me of the rules on weight and it falling upon you. When I'm throwing truly heavy and huge monsters at the players, I have taken to have them use belly flops, stomps, leaps or just falling on the pcs. One new dm was shocked at this, another was entertained, but the damage from falling weight can be solid. For dumb huge creatures, it can really fit. For intelligent huge creatures, they can use their bulk effectively when other options are not working.
This was done many months before Dark Souls came out, and so many huge bosses make use of this exact strategy.
The break dcs can be pretty high. I still find it amusing that a 22 str individual has trouble breaking down a wooden door. Some dms scale it back to a second ed system with the percentile chance approximated into break and disable dcs.
The break dcs can be pretty high. I still find it amusing that a 22 str individual has trouble breaking down a wooden door. Some dms scale it back to a second ed system with the percentile chance approximated into break and disable dcs.
Another thing to remember is that 'dungeon' doors and the like aren't like flimsy modern doors with hollow cores, held shut by a single small metal latch. In a dangerous world you'd invest in tough wood, heavy hinges and robust (chunky) iron locks - and that's a regular door. Throw in wooden (or iron) bars, reinforcing iron bands, a thick interior doorjam and breaking down a door becomes a task for an axe.
Even today, police use portable rams when they want to go through doors on the first try. Doors are designed to keep people out!
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Good point, Helic. I'm thinking of mass and strength VS stone, rather than hardness VS stone.
Mass counts for lots, sure, but even the strongest dino flesh isn't as strong as stone (a section of stone wall has a lot of hit points compared to a living thing). Dinos would do best trying to 'push' through a stone structure rather than trying to 'crash' through one.
Makes for less dramatic chase scenes, unfortunately, but I would have loved to see that T-Rex in Jurassic Park (2?) knock itself out when it sideswiped the bus with its head.
In other news, you can routinely survive a 200' fall.
Well, people do that in real life too. People without 15 hit dice!
For something far more amazing: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliane_Koepcke]10000 feet fall and walking away from it.[/url]
Perhaps a house rule that allows treating your "bash down wall" attacks as a Vicious weapon?
You take some damage, but bypass more of the wall's Hardness rating.
Makes for less dramatic chase scenes, unfortunately, but I would have loved to see that T-Rex in Jurassic Park (2?) knock itself out when it sideswiped the bus with its head.
While I basically agree, I can still topple a stone statue weighting more than myself by throwing myself at it. It hurts a bit but not terribly so. Likewise, I could probably bash through a brick wall if it wasn't built well enough. Just bone < stone doesn't say much, ice < steel and yet the titanic sank...
But yes, a mass of flesh can do less than what you think it can. On the other hand, this is fantasy, and it's a common trope to do that kind of stuff - I WANT my dinosaurs to be able to run through a normal stone wall, though maybe not a thick dungeon wall or castle wall.
Why is it then, that she can't push over/through a standard stone wall or iron door found in a structure?
I'm not really seeing the problem here. With a +21 strength check to break open objects you can make it through most things with ease.
The highest DC among doors is DC 28 for an Iron/Stone Door. That means that on the average you can smash through it within a single round. Anything less than iron/stone is either an auto succeed or requires a roll of 4+.
As for walls you still aren't having a huge problem.
Masonry and Superior Masonry are a DC 35 check to smash through a 1 foot thick wall of brick and stone. You need to roll a 14+ to succeed so on the average you'll need 1-3 rounds to get through.
If you want a "real life" example the best i can say is look at Elephants that rampage. They can smash alot of stuff but they are still stopped by thick enough stone or metal barriers.
While I basically agree, I can still topple a stone statue weighting more than myself by throwing myself at it. It hurts a bit but not terribly so. Likewise, I could probably bash through a brick wall if it wasn't built well enough. Just bone < stone doesn't say much, ice < steel and yet the titanic sank...
An unsecured stone statue is not a wall mortared in place with foundations. And you're not bashing through any brick wall unless the mortar is completely shot or you have an iron crowbar/pick to help you.
As for Titanic vs Iceberg, the iceberg won because of shape (protruding shelf) and density (titanic's hull may have been metal, but the iceberg as a whole was more dense, as ice sits lower in the water than an air-filled ship). Also, no mention of how much damage the iceberg took in the process.
But yes, a mass of flesh can do less than what you think it can. On the other hand, this is fantasy, and it's a common trope to do that kind of stuff - I WANT my dinosaurs to be able to run through a normal stone wall, though maybe not a thick dungeon wall or castle wall.
Depends on what you consider normal for a stone wall. Stone walls that are structural have to be massive to support their own weight. Brick can be a bit punier, and probably has more weak points, so dinos should probably be able to tear through those with a bit of effort. Regardless, the rules allow for it to happen already, just not with 100% reliability; taking a few tries to burst through a wall can build nice dramatic tension. :D
When pushed hard enough, walls don't break. They fall over, "uprooted" at their base (unless they're on a deep foundation, in which case the wall "snaps" at ground level).
Am I the only one concerned with the 165 TONS the character can push/drag? Even with suspension of disbelief, you are talking having a stego pulling an aircraft carrier with weight to spare....
Am I the only one concerned with the 165 TONS the character can push/drag? Even with suspension of disbelief, you are talking having a stego pulling an aircraft carrier with weight to spare....
Yeah concerned about the magical shape-shifting rage powered fantasy dinosaur...pulling and dragging stuff.
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Am I the only one concerned with the 165 TONS the character can push/drag? Even with suspension of disbelief, you are talking having a stego pulling an aircraft carrier with weight to spare....
Your off by a major amount. An M1A1 Abrahms tank weighs 60-70 tons. Blue whales are ~200 tons. Aircraft carriers are much, much heavier (as in, tens of thousands of tons).
Am I the only one concerned with the 165 TONS the character can push/drag? Even with suspension of disbelief, you are talking having a stego pulling an aircraft carrier with weight to spare....
I thought the whole purpose of the thread was to brag about a character able to drag 165 tons.
Push/drag weight isn't a very good measure of what kind of damage you can do.
To move 165 tons with a coefficient of friction of 0.6 across a horizontal surface takes about 880,000 newtons of force. If all that force were concentrated into a 2'x2' area, that gives about 2,400,000 pascals of pressure. That's not enough to break human skin (15,000,000 pascals). That's "put your head against a wall and push" though.
Whether or not that could shear the nails holding the wall down is a separate question that I don't quite know enough to answer. (Shear strength is still measured in pascals, but I don't know what area to apply the force to to compare.)
Except that's still enough to break every bone it touches and then some. Plus a 2'x2' area is huge, larger than the torso of most people. Concentrate it to something like 2"x2" and it will blow clean through a person, which is still a huge area, the average human fist is something like 3"X2".
Here's a good real life example, ever watch a wrecking ball go at a building? It too does not knock down solid walls or punch holes in them with one blow, it takes multiple blows to start to topple man made structures, it just punches a hole in something and then starts on another area once that area topples.
Should I remind everyone that strongmen regularly pull tractor trailers?
Or aeroplanes?
On wheels.
If I recall correctly (don't have my notes) my calculations were for dragging something over a normal surface (not gaining the 1/2 or x5 mod).
I imagined it as pulling a massive block of stone through a flat grassy plain or something similar.
Put that block on a sturdy wagon, and suddenly my stegosaurus can pull or drag x5 the amount.
Except that's still enough to break every bone it touches and then some. Plus a 2'x2' area is huge, larger than the torso of most people. Concentrate it to something like 2"x2" and it will blow clean through a person, which is still a huge area, the average human fist is something like 3"X2".Push/drag weight isn't a very good measure of what kind of damage you can do.
To move 165 tons with a coefficient of friction of 0.6 across a horizontal surface takes about 880,000 newtons of force. If all that force were concentrated into a 2'x2' area, that gives about 2,400,000 pascals of pressure. That's not enough to break human skin (15,000,000 pascals). That's "put your head against a wall and push" though.
Whether or not that could shear the nails holding the wall down is a separate question that I don't quite know enough to answer. (Shear strength is still measured in pascals, but I don't know what area to apply the force to to compare.)
True, but we're talking about dinosaurs and walls. And according to this bone is harder to break than skin (by quite a bit).
Another good example. A draft horse would probably take much longer kicking down a heavy dungeon door that getting it attached to it in some way and pulling it off it's hinges.
True, but we're talking about dinosaurs and walls. And according to this bone is harder to break than skin (by quite a bit).Except that's still enough to break every bone it touches and then some. Plus a 2'x2' area is huge, larger than the torso of most people. Concentrate it to something like 2"x2" and it will blow clean through a person, which is still a huge area, the average human fist is something like 3"X2".Push/drag weight isn't a very good measure of what kind of damage you can do.
To move 165 tons with a coefficient of friction of 0.6 across a horizontal surface takes about 880,000 newtons of force. If all that force were concentrated into a 2'x2' area, that gives about 2,400,000 pascals of pressure. That's not enough to break human skin (15,000,000 pascals). That's "put your head against a wall and push" though.
Whether or not that could shear the nails holding the wall down is a separate question that I don't quite know enough to answer. (Shear strength is still measured in pascals, but I don't know what area to apply the force to to compare.)
Yes and at the same time no. Because of the odd way these things work out, you can easily break someone's jaw without breaking the skin around it, this is all based on how and where the pressure is applied. Skin isn't so hot when dealing with slashes, it's slightly better at dealing with pokes, but it's truly amazing against bludgeons. Bone on the other hand doesn't really care about slashes, it's okay against bludgeons, but absolutely trip against pokes.
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Except that's still enough to break every bone it touches and then some. Plus a 2'x2' area is huge, larger than the torso of most people. Concentrate it to something like 2"x2" and it will blow clean through a person, which is still a huge area, the average human fist is something like 3"X2".
You're confusing pressure with force.
Action = reaction: the beast takes as much damage as the wall.
You're confusing pressure with force.Except that's still enough to break every bone it touches and then some. Plus a 2'x2' area is huge, larger than the torso of most people. Concentrate it to something like 2"x2" and it will blow clean through a person, which is still a huge area, the average human fist is something like 3"X2".
Yeah, because pressure can't break things. What is it that makes submarines such a risky proposition?
Except that dude with basically superhuman grip who can keep planes from moving with it, but if Stan Lee declared him superhuman, then he's probably superhuman.
BTW, 165 tons of wood on concrete (coefficient of friction of about 0.6, IIRC) is much more impressive than 825 tons on wheels on concrete (coefficient of rolling resistance of about 0.01). The first takes 12 times more force.
Actually, 165 tons of nearly anything over nearly anything is more impressive than 825 tons with wheels.