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In another thread it was suggested that someone make a core Monk from level 1 to 10 so that he could be compared to other 3/4 BAB core characters (Bard or Rogue I would assume) to see how he would stack up. However, I would be interested to see if a Monk can keep up with other front line combatants as well(Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger). So please jump in with your own core builds!
The idea is to see if the Monk can keep up on several areas.
1: Can he keep up in combat effectiveness and damage.
2: Can he keep up on defences including AC and saves?
3: Can he keep up in non-combat contributions including skills and abilities?
With these three things in mind I made a strength based Monk character, growing him from 1st to 11th level. Why 11? Because I like to go one step beyond! ;)
Some other things I kept in mind when making my Monk. He does not rely on any other class for his build, so no buddy Wizard casting Mage Armor and Magic Weapon on him. He only uses class skills, so he does not have Use Magic Device. He is not a Wizard, so a wand should not be standard equipment for him. Finally, anyone should be able to make a Monk, so I did not worry too terribly much about being as optimized as possible. I will say that I believe I have a fair amount of “system mastery,” so I don't think I chose any blatantly sub-optimal choices.
Note: I made this character in google docs, by hand. That is to say, I did not use a character making program, so it is entirely possible that there are errors I have missed. If you see any, let me know and I will fix them.
Here they are!
Lord Twig, it looks like a good exercise, but your documents are jumbled. You click on Monk 1 and you get taken to the 5th level; Monk 2 and you go to 9th; Monk 3 to 2nd; etc.
Just letting you know.
MA
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Lord Twig, it looks like a good exercise, but your documents are jumbled. You click on Monk 1 and you get taken to the 5th level; Monk 2 and you go to 9th; Monk 3 to 2nd; etc.
Just letting you know.
MA
It's clearly subtle commentary on just how messed up they are.
Should be fixed now. I has assumed that Google Docs would put them in order when I shared them all at once. Apparently not.
Right off the bat - you cannot take Weapon Focus as a monk at first level. Flurry BAB doesn't count towards prerequisites.
Doh! I missed that requirement. I will fix it. Probably just have to switch it with another feat.
The experiment is a neat one, but I question your reasoning behind disallowing the monk use of UMD or wands. It seems contrived to deprive the monk. Just because a skill isn't a class skill doesn't mean it isn't great for a class (my magus will be keeping Perception maxed, for instance), and just because a monk isn't a wizard doesn't mean he can't/shouldn't use an item that is of great benefit to him...
But I shouldn't be required to use a non-class skill either. I don't want my Monk to use wands. He should be perfectly viable without them. If you can show me that a Rogue, Fighter, or Barbarian is required to use a spell to be viable I may change my stance on this.
Edit: Fixed the 1st level feat.
I can't for the life of me figure out why you wasted 2 feats on throwing a shuriken?
I play a core monk myself, and I think I have thrown all of about 8 shurikens in the time span of 8 levels. The monk has so many tools to get up to the target in a range situation that needing to throw a shuriken is less then ideal. If your so hell bent on having a thrown weapon, pick up something that would net you some form of benifit. A javelin or a crossbow. Both have a range increment that wont hinder you, and in the Javelins case can still do damage if it hits.
Also why bother with vital strike? Again, in a situation where your only making one attack, you would be better served by using Imp. Trip to put the target on the ground and taking Combat Reflexes(in place of Vital)to punish the target for taking a provoking action.
I think people get too hung up on this idea that the monk has to be a damage monkey, and forget they are really good for doing wierd and off the wall things to achieve the goal of nullifing the enemy.
Shuriken are iconic and the Monk can flurry with them. It is a class feature. The Monk gets more benefit out of Point Blank Shot and Far Shot than most other classes with their ranged attacks. And I am not the only one that likes shuriken. Check out Treantmonk's guide some time.
If I were making a melee Fighter or Ranger I would still spend a couple feats on their ranged attack (probably PBS and Rapid Shot).
Edit: Oh, also, using shuriken gives the Monk another option for defeating DR. Just pull out the shuriken of the right type as a free action and slice right through that DR.
I think people get too hung up on this idea that the monk has to be a damage monkey, and forget they are really good for doing wierd and off the wall things to achieve the goal of nullifing the enemy.
In pathfinder, there are basically 3 combat roles.
1) Damage Dealer- kill enemies (e.g., barbarian and fighter)
2) Controller- Make enemies uneffective (e.g., Wizard or Witch)
3) Support- Support the party (e.g., Bard and some clerics)
Martial classes tend to find it easier to do damage, and that primarily is what the build in the OP are made for.
Specialized builds can be controllers, like tetori or tripping monks. However, controller builds tend to be weak on damage and require a great deal of specialization to keep viable past the low levels. For example, a good deal of foes are flying by level 10 or are otherwise untrippable. Except perhaps for tripping specialists, this makes vital strike more generally useful than trip at the levels that you qualify for it.
Lord Twig, I really think the premise of your OP is sound, but more and more it feels like you're intentionally gimping your monk. Wasting resources on shuriken because "shuriken are iconic" and refusing to use wands because "monks aren't wizards" simply works to invalidate the experiment as a whole.
You prove nothing by this if your example monk isn't at least a good-faith effort to be decent, even if he isn't fully optimized.
If you can show me that a Rogue, Fighter, or Barbarian is required to use a spell to be viable I may change my stance on this.
All three are going to need access to Fly and See Invisibility at the very least, or items that provide them with same. And that's just for objectives 1 and 2. For objective 3 the fighter and barbarian are going to need a boatload of spells/items to be viable.
Yeah Looked at treant's guid, and your still not convincing me on the idea of wasting 2 feats on a less then ideal attack option. With your two feats you just reduced the penalty to attack with a shirkn from -2 to -1 for an attack that you should have spent a Ki point on to close the distance on in the first place to do more damage or even take the target out of the next round of actions.
Im not saying dont take them or something else asa ranged weapon. Im just saying the feats are better spent on anything else.
In pathfinder, there are basically 3 combat roles.
1) Damage Dealer- kill enemies (e.g., barbarian and fighter)
2) Controller- Make enemies uneffective (e.g., Wizard or Witch)
3) Support- Support the party (e.g., Bard and some clerics)
Your right, when it comes to killing things with out right damage, monks are a bit lacking ( zen archer aside)
As for being a pure controller I think they fill this role rather well. But truly think they fill an inbetween role of damge/controller.
Your right having Greater Trip would be fabulous but isnt necessary to do the controler thing, when you can also have Imp Disarm and imp/Greater Grapple. The monk can add all 3 of these things to their tool belt for dealing with enemies. Now will this win in all situations? No as there is a creature out there that are designed to thwart what players can throw at the judge.
And ultimatly I think the streanght monk is a failed idea, in that you scrifice points in your 2 primary damage avoidence abilities (Dex/Wis) to be able to hit and do damge or pull off a menuver.
A Human Dex/Wis monk would make a far better Controller and with a AoMF Agile can even bring the damage in a flurry.
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My Monk can move faster and jump higher than the typical Rogue, Fighter or Barbarian, so flying isn't as critical for him, but I will grant that it will be important. Probably Winged Boots are in order as soon as he can afford them. For See Invisible he has Blind Fighting, but a See Invisible spell would still be helpful. I notice that you didn't mention that any of the other classes needed a spell to help their AC or attack.
The ranged feats means that Bob can throw shurikens from 30' away at only a -1 penalty to hit and with +1 damage. At level 11 he can throw four of them, each doing 9 or 10 points of damage. Really he shouldn't have all adamant shuriken. He should probably have some cold iron and silver too.
At 9th level when Bob takes Vital Strike it adds 2D6 to his standard attack. That is pretty significant. Improved Critical is a proven DPR increaser. Power Attack may be good as well, but I focused my guy on hitting more. Deadly Aim is good too, but I already spent two feats on shurikens and I'm not sure what I would take out to put it in. Not Far Shot, if I am too far away then I can't afford to lose more to-hit for extra damage and if I am closer then I should just close and melee.
I could certainly add tanglefoot bags. Bob has a little extra money at every level.
I wanted to get a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone, but haven't been able to afford it yet.
Intimidate? Bob's Cha sucks and I rarely have seen it used in game. Your group may be different.
I went with kama instead of quarterstaff because I wanted a cold iron weapon.
Potions of Enlarge are good, but it enhances DPR at the cost of defense. Probably should have some in there. Could just replace some of the other potions he has on him.
Bottom line. There are lots of ways you could build a Monk. Some might be better, some might be worse. I don't think mine is unreasonable. If my build doesn't work, then I would argue there is something wrong with the monk class. But I think my build does work... Just not as well as the other classes would with the same amount of effort.
Me and my group aren't quite focused on optimization, flavor is much more important for us. For example, one of the players has a ninja with STR 12 that uses shurikens in time to time just because he's a ninja and ninjas use shurikens (of course he has a shortbow too).
I believe your monk is a good playable and versatile option. He has decent melee attack and damage, a viable ranged attack, not too bad AC.
Regarding Monk 1, he has 13 hp (1d8+5), maybe there is something I'm missing but you sould have just 1d8+4, +1 Con and +3 Toughness.
Regarding Monk 1, he has 13 hp (1d8+5), maybe there is something I'm missing but you sould have just 1d8+4, +1 Con and +3 Toughness.
Favored Class bonus.
The experiment is a neat one, but I question your reasoning behind disallowing the monk use of UMD or wands. It seems contrived to deprive the monk. Just because a skill isn't a class skill doesn't mean it isn't great for a class (my magus will be keeping Perception maxed, for instance), and just because a monk isn't a wizard doesn't mean he can't/shouldn't use an item that is of great benefit to him...
Maybe their survival in low/no magic games/areas/etc?
... And being alone? ... and Vow of Poverty (but this is outside Core)?
Yes, I put Favored Class bonus into HPs.
To me wands for non-magic users is an optimizer's tool. It is removing the flavor of the item, looking at the mechanics and realizing, "Hey! This works!"
But someone playing Pathfinder for the first time and decided to make a Monk isn't going to be thinking, "Well I am playing a Monk, so I will need to be able to use a wand of Mage Armor." Wands are for spellcasters. A Monk is not a spellcaster, and he shouldn't need to sacrifice valuable skill points to patch a deficiency of his class.
So how about it? Does anyone feel like putting up a competing build? Make a Rogue! Make a Ranger! Or even your own flavor of Monk! I would love to see them.
I was still interested in this comparison, so I made my own Rogue. I only have him up to level 4 so far, but I figured I would post what I have. I went with two-weapon fighting to try to keep it an apples-to-apples comparison.
Some initial observations. The Rogue has managed to keep pretty equal on his to-hit bonus, but his damage is a little lower unless he gets his Sneak Attack. His AC is higher while his Saves are a little worse. In my opinion the Rogue will be more useful out of combat, but that is a little harder to compare.
Here he is: