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Bring back Synthesis Archetype!


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

Sczarni

I understand why the Synthesis Archetype was banned. The reason it was banned was because of the ability to stack all of your stats in.. say.. int, cha, and wis and still get the stats of the Eidolon... But I have a suggestion that may or may not be accepted by the community but I thought I would throw it out there.

Make an errata for the class.

All Eidolons have a common base stats unless they are a synthesis. (The base stats are equal to the quadruped)

If you choose a biped, your eidolon gains +2 str, -2 dex. If you choose the Serpentine shape, he gains -2 str, +2 dex.

If you are a synthesis and choose the biped then your strength increases by 2 and your dex decreases by 2 for as long as the Eidolon remains being "fused" to the summoner.

If you choose the Serpentine shape then your strength is reduced by 2 and your dex is increased by 2 for as long as the Eidolon is out.

The advantages to this system.
*Summoners get another archetype to choose from. They don't have many in PFS and it would be nice for them to have some customizability.

*The summoner gets the evolutions rather than an Eidolon getting them.

*You can choose where your stats will be but you wont be overpowered by having more stat points (essentially) than anyone else.

*May protect the summoner and make them not so vulnerable to attack.

If you choose this archetype, there would also be downsides.

*If you get attacked and your Eidolon takes enough damage to dissipate, you will be stuck in combat and not be as powerful since the evolutions wont be available any longer.

*You may be useless for the rest of the day if you are attacked.

*Instead of what is essentially two turns, you only have one turn. You can either choose to buff yourself or attack. Without the synthesis, you can choose to attack with your summon and buff him all in one round.

I personally think this way of doing this would accomplish the flavor of the class without making the synthesis summoner completely broken like it was before.

What do people think about this idea?

****

This sounds like a significant rework of the archetype. This would not be done just for PFS as it sticks to the Pathfinder rules as much as possible. It seems very unlikely that the development team would go back and revisit it for the general rules either when they can spend that time creating new material.

Silver Crusade ****

I'll address these where I can.

We do not control the rules. That's the Pathfinder developer's role. We just interpret and abjudicate what's handed to us by them. In this case, we decided that the synthesist was not a good fit for PFS.

In regards to your errata suggestion, that would be a good fit for a home campaign, but as stated above erratas don't fit PFS. We either stick as closely to RAW as possible, or remove it entirely.

**** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

I would have liked have played the synth, never did get the chance but as written it was way OP. I was looking forward to the Holy of Holies Aasimar or Son of the Dark Lords tiefling.

Flavorwise it was great. But many folks had a huge issue with them mechanically.

Your attempt is a good one but an errata like this would take JB or SKR to delve into it and it would have to change the PDFs of the books.

While not impossible I dont see this happening. It is a good idea though and would mitigate some (not all) dump statting.

What would the quadruped stats be? +2 Dex -2 Con?

Sczarni

There were erratas for the Alchemist to get extra bombs (instead of brew potion) and for the evolutionist to only be able to change their Eidolon once per campaign. ;)

Sczarni

"What would the quadruped stats be? +2 Dex -2 Con?"

No change to the stats. Like I said. They are used as the base.

They are the middle ground for the class. They have 14 str and 14 dex. The serp has +2 dex and -2 str (16 dex, 12 str) while the biped has +2 str, -2 dex.

This isn't exactly an entire rewrite of the archetype. The only thing that changes is that your str/con/dex are NOT overwritten by the Eidolon. The only thing that changes in terms of stats with the Eidolon is whether or not they are biped or serpentine then their stats either get +2 str, -2 dex or +2 dex, -2 str.

This is just following the stat conventions as given to us in the advanced players guide under the base shapes.

Osirion **** Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Sierra Vista aka Spaarky

Verzen- what you are suggesting is an almost rewrite of how the class works which is something different than changing 1 feat for another. What is proposed is much more than a simple change and really would not work within PFS.

Andoran ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The synthesist is a perfect example of why we can't have nice things in organized play. People will abuse them.

In a home game, the DM would just see the 7/7/7 character sheet and tell the player to stop being a git and to stop abusing your eidolon's stats.

In PFS, DMs don't have that luxury. Thus it's on players to moderate themselves - something that doesn't happen.

Grand Lodge *****

Verzen wrote:
There were erratas for the Alchemist to get extra bombs (instead of brew potion) and for the evolutionist to only be able to change their Eidolon once per campaign. ;)

You just described both changes in one sentence. Extremely simple modifications like these, in order to allow access to an entire class in PFS, is a no brainer. Also these changes aren't complete redos of existing rules. In the case of the Alchemist it is a simple substitution of one benefit for another one that already exists in the game.

Taldor ****

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game Subscriber
Verzen wrote:
" Bring back Synthesis Archetype!"

No, please.

Thank you.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Illinois—Carbondale aka Disturbed1

1) That is not why it is banned.

2) The more you make changes to the existing basic game (being Pathfinder RPG) for a specific grouping of players (such as PFS) the more you hinder the entrance of new players into the specific group. Swapping out a feat here and there and banning some archetypes is far and away easier to adjust to than to have to come up with some kind of document that explains all the details in the change of a class because the entire thing has been reworked.

If you think your idea is so awesome, then suggest that as a completely new archetype Paizo could release.

Introduce new stuff = good.
Rework old stuff = bad (most of the time).

Qadira

So who makes the call what is banned in PFS. I have yet to have the pleasuer of playing PFS but i do play with Pathfinder Corebooks, (Corerule book, Advanced Race, Advanced Playes Guide, Ultimate Magic, Combat and Equipment.) I hear, but have not see a, list yet of banned archetypes. I was wondering why the Vivisectionist was banned for the Alchemist?

**** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

Bardofcyberspace wrote:
So who makes the call what is banned in PFS. I have yet to have the pleasuer of playing PFS but i do play with Pathfinder Corebooks, (Corerule book, Advanced Race, Advanced Playes Guide, Ultimate Magic, Combat and Equipment.) I hear, but have not see a, list yet of banned archetypes. I was wondering why the Vivisectionist was banned for the Alchemist?

Mike Brock is the PFS Coordinator and he along with the venture officers advice makes the finl call on what is banned.

I can tell you banning something is never done lightly.

Grand Lodge **

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Bardofcyberspace wrote:
I was wondering why the Vivisectionist was banned for the Alchemist?

The PRD says:

Quote:
a vivisectionist's goals are not related to healing, but rather to experimentation and knowledge that most people would consider evil.

Not really the flavour wanted in the Pathfinder Society (either the in-game organisation or the real world campaign).

Bardofcyberspace wrote:
I hear, but have not see a, list yet of banned archetypes.

See Additional Resources.

*****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Feral wrote:
In a home game, the DM would just see the 7/7/7 character sheet and tell the player to stop being a git and to stop abusing your eidolon's stats.

Nah, all NPCs would be banishment subschool abjuration wizards.

Synth: I charge the wizard!
GM: When you get within 30-ft, please make a will save.
Synth: Uh oh. (2 on the die, just like Caubo)
GM: Your eidolon goes poof. Continue your charge.
Synth: I don't want to?
GM: That sucks. Charging is a full round action, one which you declared. Finish it.
Synth: Crap.
GM: >:)

**** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

Kyle Baird wrote:
Feral wrote:
In a home game, the DM would just see the 7/7/7 character sheet and tell the player to stop being a git and to stop abusing your eidolon's stats.

Nah, all NPCs would be banishment subschool abjuration wizards.

Synth: I charge the wizard!
GM: When you get within 30-ft, please make a will save.
Synth: Uh oh. (2 on the die, just like Caubo)
GM: Your eidolon goes poof. Continue your charge.
Synth: I don't want to?
GM: That sucks. Charging is a full round action, one which you declared. Finish it.
Synth: Crap.
GM: >:)

Ouch!

Sczarni **

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Paz wrote:
Bardofcyberspace wrote:
I was wondering why the Vivisectionist was banned for the Alchemist?

The PRD says:

Quote:
a vivisectionist's goals are not related to healing, but rather to experimentation and knowledge that most people would consider evil.
Not really the flavour wanted in the Pathfinder Society (either the in-game organisation or the real world campaign).

Also, the fact that at mid-to-higher levels, with the extra arms and tentacles discoveries, a Vivisectionist would be getting as much sneak attack damage as a rogue, but with 6 or more attacks per round.

EDIT: Discoveries. I meant discoveries.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco aka Azmyth

1 person marked this as a favorite.

"Over my dead body"

Qadira ****

Kyle Baird wrote:
Feral wrote:
In a home game, the DM would just see the 7/7/7 character sheet and tell the player to stop being a git and to stop abusing your eidolon's stats.

Nah, all NPCs would be banishment subschool abjuration wizards.

Synth: I charge the wizard!
GM: When you get within 30-ft, please make a will save.
Synth: Uh oh. (2 on the die, just like Caubo)
GM: Your eidolon goes poof. Continue your charge.
Synth: I don't want to?
GM: That sucks. Charging is a full round action, one which you declared. Finish it.
Synth: Crap.
GM: >:)

You love me.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber
Joseph Caubo wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
Feral wrote:
In a home game, the DM would just see the 7/7/7 character sheet and tell the player to stop being a git and to stop abusing your eidolon's stats.

Nah, all NPCs would be banishment subschool abjuration wizards.

Synth: I charge the wizard!
GM: When you get within 30-ft, please make a will save.
Synth: Uh oh. (2 on the die, just like Caubo)
GM: Your eidolon goes poof. Continue your charge.
Synth: I don't want to?
GM: That sucks. Charging is a full round action, one which you declared. Finish it.
Synth: Crap.
GM: >:)

You love me.

With every sneak-attack-having tentacle in his vivisectionist body...

**

Verzen wrote:
There were erratas for the Alchemist to get extra bombs (instead of brew potion) and for the evolutionist to only be able to change their Eidolon once per campaign. ;)

I think i just hit flag and dinnae mean to. Sorry.

Not to derail, but where are these erratas? I also saw in a thread eido's are not eligible targets of enlarge person, and I dinnae want to be cheating if that is the case. Thanks,

[/derail]


Sorry to come late to the party but please, for the love of god don't bring them back.

Sczarni **

they were fine when used by normal people, but gotta cater to the lowest denominator eh?

As far as enlarge person, you're correct not useable normally, but the synthesist can cast spells that'd normally only affect him, or affect him and include his summoner, however no one else can cast enlarge person on the eidolon


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

hah!

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Vermont—Brattleboro aka ElyasRavenwood

Sniggevert wrote:
Verzen wrote:
" Bring back Synthesis Archetype!"

No, please.

Thank you.

+1

Shadow Lodge

i dont see how the guy sitting nxt to you shouldnt be able to play a synth. i can understand you being jelous of that guy hitting for high damage and casting ect.. but to ban it because you dont like it, thats just childish.

i guess from now on every character i make should cater to the rest of the group, and i should walk on eggshells to prevent outshining anyone? this is a sore subject for me anyway, even though i never played, or wanted to play, a synthesist summoner. i mean why should i when i can play a magus and kill everything i want in one hit by level 6 AMIRGHT?!


TheSideKick wrote:
AMIRGHT?!

No

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Verzen wrote:
The reason it was banned was because of the ability to stack all of your stats

Actually, no, the reason it (and other archetypes) was banned is because it was decided that the flavor does not fit the themes of Golarion and Pathfinder Society Organized Play. I'm sure that the perceived brokenness of builds had a hand in the discussion (we would be foolish to think otherwise), in the end, the primary reason was the flavor. Now before I get a bunch of "what abouts" with regards to other archtypes, those have no bearing on this discussion. All archetypes are evaluated individually and decisions are made (by Mike) as to their "fit" in PFS. Whether or not the synthesist is banned does not impact the banning of undead lord cleric, for example. Remember that most material in the hard cover books is generic Pathfinder RPG meaning that it is written to apply to multiple campaign settings. Everything outside of the Core Rulebook are essentially optional/expansion rules that the GM (in this case) Mike, has to decide whether or not they fit the campaign.

Also, PFS is not in the habit of reworking printed rules into something we like better. The only minor changes that are needed are those that would conflict with other campaign specific rules such as feat substitutions for crafting.

Silver Crusade *

@TheSideKick I built my magus to not do that. I walk the walk, because I see no reason to ever make a scenario-dominating character in PFS. Why? Because you are *never alone*

The 7/7/7 fighter archer makes me want to vomit enough as it is.


TheSideKick wrote:
i guess from now on every character i make should cater to the rest of the group, and i should walk on eggshells to prevent outshining anyone?

If you like being invited back to games, then I guess so...

Lantern Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Verzen wrote:
There were erratas for the Alchemist to get extra bombs (instead of brew potion) and for the evolutionist to only be able to change their Eidolon once per campaign. ;)

You are incorrect on the second part. The restriction on the Evolutionist is once per session.

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