Goblin Squad Member
|
Trusting the client.
This is freaking 2012. It's annoying enough seeing bots in PvE teleport around the map. Absolutely infuriating to see low-level speedhacks and teleporation hacks in WvW, much less the 'superman' incidents.
I don't know what else to say, really. We learned this like, a decade and a half ago. "Though shalt not trust the client." Almost like "2+2=4", except apparently it needs to be explicitly demanded, for some reason which I cannot fathom.
So count me in as demanding it.
Judging by ryan's comments on stealth and other similar topics, it sounds like GW is already erring on the side of overcaution when it comes to the clients. (I'll dig it up later but basically they more or less aknowledged that all information sent to the client is to be assumed to be known by the player, which by extension I'm pretty sure they already have the school of thought that all information from the client better be verified).
That's the biggest mistake you saw in GW2? The "races" section on their site is like an rpg mistake museum.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yeah, as Onishi says, I remember this discussion about the client. Ouchie.
I'd love the idea of darkness/visibility but certain players could easily circumvent it, apparently. :(
@Hanz: I actually thought they did a good job of modifying the 5-man-band archetype thing. I mean fantasy has been thrashing out the same races, at least they attempted to innovate and reassess and build some original lore with some new(er) combinations eg The Sylvari, was their bravest attempt (still not plant-like enough imo).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'd love the idea of darkness/visibility but certain players could easily circumvent it...
As I understand the problem, the real issue is that in order to stop players from being able to circumvent it, you would need the server to do most of the processing to determine who can see what, and then only send the clients the data on the things they can actually see. That is prohibitively costly, both in development effort and in server-side processing power.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
An alternate view is to have the client's commands simply be sent to the server, rather than declaring the toon's current state, though that's being somewhat pedantic. GW2 has basically locked itself into 'must verify' at this point.
Well yeah, either or really. Whether the server either knows the maximum speed that a non-cheating character can possibly go and forces him into propor speed or disconects if bypassed, or the client can essentially function as a dumb terminal, the end result is the same. So long as the method works.
I suppose which route it goes most likely is going to be highly dependent on the middleware goblinworks goes with, but yeah, as my point was. Every post I've seen from Ryan, it seems him and his team jump first to the "how will players try to exploit this and is it preventable" within 2 seconds of anything proposed. Basing my opinion of them from their posts, it at least logically follows that it is highly improbable that from a viewpoint that is boarderline paranoid (Though I do agree, if security history of every MMO, game, server, etc... has taught us anything, it's that the smallest security hole can be found in a very short amount of time, paranoia is justified) that they would be thinking of the lesser known possible weakpoints, and miss the gaping obvious ones.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think it's very likely that what you're seeing in GW2 right now is anti-desynch choices, not developer ignorance.
If you can affect speed or location (speedhack or teleporthack) that tells me that the client & server can get desynched a lot, and rather than have players see a lot of rubber-banding effects or hard resets (i.e. forced logouts), the developers opted to let the client be authoritative.
It would be interesting to know if this is the case both in the PvE areas of the world as well as the PvP areas. PvP is where it really matters - otherwise it's just envy, not game breaking. Since GW2 doesn't have open world PvP it should be possible to enforce stricter rules in PvP areas. Those players are also a lot more resiliant to being told "sorry, your ping time sucks, your packets are hopping through 100 routers, and your crappy DSL modem + terrible NetGear WiFi router + awful kitbash of a homebrew computer with all sorts of crazy drivers, malware and beta software can't keep up" than PvE players are.
This is one of those MMO problem areas that there is no good solution as yet. As long as the heartbeat of the MMO has to be set slower than near-realtime to allow the server to process all the inputs, change the game state, and get the state change out to the clients, the developers have to choose between authoritative clients or desynch player experience degradation.
Since GW2 is all about "prove we're worth switching your whole life to away from WoW", I can see why they went with "player experience" vs. "player's can cheat".
RyanD
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Ryan
I'm curious. Couldn't that be mitigated by slowing the pace of movement/combat? If server has more time to process each input and get the game state back to the clients (even accounting for routing burps) then outside of really bad flaps I would think most clients would have time to recieve the updated information?
Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine...but movement pace in many of the MMO's I've played seemed unaturaly fast to me.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'd love the idea of darkness/visibility but certain players could easily circumvent it...As I understand the problem, the real issue is that in order to stop players from being able to circumvent it, you would need the server to do most of the processing to determine who can see what, and then only send the clients the data on the things they can actually see. That is prohibitively costly, both in development effort and in server-side processing power.
Thanks for the detailed answers. It's just another example of online games being a place where cheating will take place. Kinda revealing about human nature in a way (reminds me of an old joke: Q: "Why don't you play cards in the jungle?" A: "Because you get cheetahs!")!
@GrumpyMel: I wish I'd asked that question.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@GrumpyMel - yes, that is exactly the issue - the more time that passes between the time you press a button or click a mouse, and when the game reacts to that input, the easier it is for the server to keep the game state in synch with the client.
It just drives a lot of people nuts when it's not realtime.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It's just another example of online games being a place where cheating will take place. Kinda revealing about human nature in a way...
Yeah, we (Human Beings) will do some pretty crazy stuff if we're fairly certain we won't be punished for it. If only there were some way to get people to behave as if they were always being watched and would eventually be punished for the evil things they did...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
So what if gameplay was slowed down but the combat length was shortened? Align HP more towards PnP as opposed to MMO? Or is it more of a players not liking the turn-based feel?
Personally, I would like to see more action and smarter action. Not the same auto attack, but a style of attack. I could deal with a little slower than real time as long as it was made up for with something that was sensory appealing.
Maybe even a system of "learning" different moves or tactics that only affected animation and was based off of data being sent anyway, the amount of damage delt. Your character would have a unique style based off of choices you piece together.
That may be more difficult / less effective than I envision, but in the end slower gameplay is more tolerable when you occupy the players senses. The game isn't going to be twitch based anyway, slightly slower than real-life doesn't affect the end result of combat. As long as I'm not waiting a minute between regular attacks, I'm good.
Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine...but movement pace in many of the MMO's I've played seemed unaturaly fast to me.
Totally agree man. Running and jumping around in circles (like its done in many mmos) is a big turn-off both when it comes to gameplay and visuals. The funny thing is games/genres that are considered more action based (mobas, fps etc) have less button smashing and slower combat, making for much ''cleaner'' gameplay.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Clever girl... I'm just saying if I take the time to play a game, I've often found honest players make the best experience. Presumably online interaction adds another barrier to empathy, which compounds the reason why people would want to cheat player #39821B ! (edit: finding out my elder brother who always used to insist on playing banker, when we were (young, gullible) kids, would help himself to a few extra 100s/500s - really soured my opinion of cheating!)
RE: Slower gameplay I notice KS project eternity are using a real-time plus pause function - for this single player rpg. But I really like this system to allow decision time + execution time. :) So slower combat sounds like a promising direction for PfO imo.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Obakararuir - any noticeable delay between input and effect will be interpreted by a fairly wide cross-section of players as a problem. They have been raised on games where the delay is not noticeable unless there's a flaw in the software or hardware.
And we're not talking about "combat". We're talking about anything you do, from changing direction to jumping, to speeding up or slowing down, etc. (Which are all parts of combat, but aren't just combat)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Watched the vid, those are hacks. And it's totally a desynch issue. Watch how damage is still inflicted even when the character is halfway across the screen - that's the server acting as if the character was still standing where it was supposed to be when the attack was made, and then accepting the client's version of reality after the attack resolved.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
A lot of what appears in that video is also not proof of hacking- a bad connection (on the part of the player who is e.g. performing the melee attacks from 15m away) could easily result in that kind of exhibited behavior due to desynch.
I do recall that EQ put a cheat-detecting bit in server-side, which would kick players if they moved 'too fast'. Then they put in new abilities which increased running speed, and the fastest characters then tripped the hack-detecting algorithm. That's a cautionary tale of a different sort- trust the players to find the combos that the designers didn't think of.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine...but movement pace in many of the MMO's I've played seemed unaturaly fast to me.Totally agree man. Running and jumping around in circles (like its done in many mmos) is a big turn-off both when it comes to gameplay and visuals. The funny thing is games/genres that are considered more action based (mobas, fps etc) have less button smashing and slower combat, making for much ''cleaner'' gameplay.
Yeah, funny thing is if you've ever done any sword-play in real life, from my limited experience with it (SCA, LARP, etc) the running around jumping thing is about the surest way to get yourself "killed" with landing little to no hits on the enemy. Generaly you want to be standing pretty much in one spot, facing the enemy, with your balance centered and weapons/shield at ready so that you can actualy move and react to the enemy or any opportunities presented you.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Obakararuir - any noticeable delay between input and effect will be interpreted by a fairly wide cross-section of players as a problem. They have been raised on games where the delay is not noticeable unless there's a flaw in the software or hardware.
And we're not talking about "combat". We're talking about anything you do, from changing direction to jumping, to speeding up or slowing down, etc. (Which are all parts of combat, but aren't just combat)
Too bad, it would make for more interesting gameplay (IMO)....but I totaly understand how Developers are hesitant to break too many widely held preconceptions at once. Maybe you guys could think about doing some time dilation in the larger mass combats though... that (formation fighting) is something that's brand new to MMO's so players might have fewer preconceptions about what's involved there...and from the sound of the scale of those and everything that's involved, it might be usefull to add a little extra time for everything to be transmitted down to the clients....not to mention processed by the players brains so they have the opportunity to make tactical decisions.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I believe that, just like as in Boxing, it's generally a good idea to keep moving, but not with massive wastes of energy.
From my study of Aikido, I know the last thing you want to do is stand still when someone is attacking you.
It's not really so much about wasting energy it's about your options in reacting (to attack or opportunity). You want to be able to have freedom of motion to react in different directions or areas, that requires both balance and a relative lack of momentem. The problems with the "Jump and Run around in the circle thing" is that when you are up in the air with both feet off the ground you can't substantialy change your direction because you have nothing to push off against and when you're running you're momentem prevents you from moving outside a certain limited range.
So doing that is kinda like hanging out a sign for your opponent saying "I'll be here, and if I attack here, there is pretty much nothing you can do about it."The other big difference between fighting armed and something like Akido or alot of other Martial Art's styles is that you are doing alot more blocking (mostly with shield if you've got it, weapon secondary) then you are moving out of the way or miss directing. That means force on force which requires solid footing to recieve or initiate an attack. It's alot closer to some of the hard karate styles. It's actualy really hard to move a shield or weapon around to a part of the body opposite of the direction you are going, tends to throw you off balance as they have alot more mass then simply moving an empty hand.... and of course if you don't have good solid footing, you aren't going to be well set to recieve or deliver much of an effective blow.
Anyway, that's what I've noticed from my limited experience with it.
Edit: P.S.... In the martial arts I've taken, you weren't really doing much movement prior to an attack, you were moving in response to one. You might try to do something to create an opportunity, but that was really risky because once you were commited there wasn't much else you could do. I tended to do very limited movements/strikes on the offense in trying to set up an attack or opportunity so I could recover quickly and get back to ready. So I guess really not that much different from the armed fighting that I've tried...except it was a bit less force on force.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@GrumpyMel, don't get me wrong. I totally agree that jumping around is not the way to win a fight. I was just remarking that it's not a real good idea to stand still either. You're absolutely right that the main thing you want is to be ready to move in any direction without having to adjust your balance first. And you're absolutely right that more power-focused martial arts are much less interested in moving out of the way than in blocking and counter-attacking.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@GrumpyMel, don't get me wrong. I totally agree that jumping around is not the way to win a fight. I was just remarking that it's not a real good idea to stand still either. You're absolutely right that the main thing you want is to be ready to move in any direction without having to adjust your balance first. And you're absolutely right that more power-focused martial arts are much less interested in moving out of the way than in blocking and counter-attacking.
Yeah, really more of a comment on how comical some of the standard PvP fighting styles in MMO's look. Can't say that they actualy aren't effective in MMO's...but they sure do look dumb.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
A lot of the existing AAA titels put at least half an eye towards arena pro gamer fighting. And that means speed > all.
Really, look at WoW, the combat there is not that difficult when you have a few seconds to react, what makes it "pro" is that you need to react quite fast to get your combo off/disrupt the opponent.
I really hate this because that means that the vast majority of players has unexciting twitch combat where mashing a button/playing an easy class > all when it comes to PvP.
A lot of the existing AAA titels put at least half an eye towards arena pro gamer fighting. And that means speed > all.
What games do you mean by ''arena pro gamer fighting''?
Yeah... structured PvP may be borrowed from such games, but the combat itself is not, which i tried to say before.
For instance in Dota (a moba) combat is rather slow paced, you have only a few buttons to smash (usually 4 abilities and an attack), and you have to stand still while attacking and using abilities (not like in most mmos where you spin around in the air and do attacks on the fly). To play well you don't have to have good micro (finger dexterity) at all (at least not compared to most mmos with 10+ active abilities to use). But you have to know the game. You have to know the attack animations of your attack, so you can move properly between the attacks to play the most efficient. You have to know how to combine your skills properly with your team mates. You have to react to your enemies' positioning, movement, ability use etc.
It's normal to think mobas and other arena based games are so fast paced, but when you compare the combat system itself to many mmos they really are not.
Imo structured PvP has no place in an mmorpg. Mmorpgs should try make their worlds as believable as possible, and as part of that is open world PvP. Structured PvP with rewards ruins open world PvP, as proven by vanilla WoW. E-sports has nothing to do with mmorpgs if you ask me.
But i think mmorpgs has a lot to improve when it comes to combat itself compared to other genres (and no, don't make it more actiony or fast paced). Make it more tactical, in positioning, movement, attack, timing, cooperation and how you build your character.
Don't see any changes to this coming up any time soon tho.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I don't want to play DDR on my keyboard in order to combat a monster.
Normal MMO combat for me, please.
Yeah, I'm not interested in more "Action Oriented" combat either...but I also hope they take a step away from the typical combat systems that MMO's have...I've always felt that was more akin to button mashing and "DDR" then anything really tactical myself.
What I'd like to see is something far more tactical that evokes the FEEL (though obviously it would have to significantly differ in the mechanics) of the PnP system.
Some thoughts on elements that could be brought in...
- Threatened Zones and Attacks of Opportunity for moving through threatened Zones.
- Collision Detection for Combat or a mechanism that simulates the effect of collision detection (perhaps moving "through" someone could evoke a really nasty version of an AO, so that you would generaly not be inclined to do it).
- Flanking and Facing modifiers
- Cover against ranged attacks ( At the very least you could paint certain types of terrain as cover..e.g. "heavy forest" for players occupying those spaces...if actual LOS based cover was too difficult to encorporate).
- Auto-Attack but with the player able to set the level of aggressiveness in that attack...something akin to a Stance... e.g. "Fighting Defensively", "Full Defense", "Fighting Offensively", "Reckless Offense" with appropriate modifiers to offense and defense. Rather then a hotbar ability that gives you some buff on a cooldown, it acts as a toggle as to how agressively you are fighting that stays until you switch to something else...and has both positive and negative modifiers.
- Damage Type versus Armor/Defense Type. Make it actualy matter whether you choose to use a weapon that does Slash, Blunt or Pierce against a particular target type. Just like the PnP game, have certain monsters that have Damage Reductions and Vulnerabilities to certain damage types...so weapons could have secondary qualities like silver, cold iron, holy, etc..... making choice of weapon part of the tactics for a fight.
- Implimentation of some of the combat effects of stealth. This could be as simple as a "Self Buff" against attacks for stealth Characters that could be dropped upon certain actions (eg Melee Attack) or dispelled by another character executing a successfull "Spot" action against the stealther could even be modified by the "cover" system described above or environmental factors like time of day. Would add another element to character customization and combat.
In other words, I'm fine with the basic precepts of MMO combat...in regards tab-targeting, auto-attack, and some sort of global timer.... but I think the typical implimentation leaves alot to be desired. I also think with the way hotbar/ability is often implimented, it actualy ends up much more of a "button mashing" excersize then anything else...which I really don't like. I think there should be ways to toggle things on your character that stay until you decide to change them rather then constantly mashing the number 4 key every 2.5 seconds.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yeah, I'm not interested in more "Action Oriented" combat either...but I also hope they take a step away from the typical combat systems that MMO's have...
IMO, the proper way to innovate in this area is by designing new and engaging abilities and resource mechanics, not by using UI gimmicks.
Take GrumpyMel's Stances like "Fighting Defensively", etc. Most MMOs have stances like this. To my mind, the proper thing to do is to create a bunch of them, make them skill-based, and then create other skills that specifically counter them. You don't have to change the UI at all, but now the game is suddenly much more engaging and much less cookie-cutter.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Pick one DDR or Guitar Hero? Do you want your buttons in a line, or in a pattern? I find it funny that almost everyone here is all about immersion, yet there is little support for action combat, the most immersive form of combat in MMO's. Do you want to tell your character what to do? or do you want to be your character? Action controls are not twitch, they are combo based, and involve locking onto a target(DCUO style{the only good part of that game}) you don't have to button mash, you only have to hit two buttons a second, any more and you aren't accomplishing anything.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Pick one DDR or Guitar Hero? Do you want your buttons in a line, or in a pattern? I find it funny that almost everyone here is all about immersion, yet there is little support for action combat, the most immersive form of combat in MMO's. Do you want to tell your character what to do? or do you want to be your character? Action controls are not twitch, they are combo based, and involve locking onto a target(DCUO style{the only good part of that game}) you don't have to button mash, you only have to hit two buttons a second, any more and you aren't accomplishing anything.
To me, there is so much to think about in the above, all the considerations it raises. Where to start. I've not tried DCUO, but I did hear it's actiony-combat was generally well-received, as well as watched a few vids. And I'd probably like it too, compared to the tab-target standard I've previously experienced. Because mmorpgs are invested with a lot of time played, before moving onto a new one, so it feels to me that this new game must have a very different feel/(combat if it's combat-centric then doubly so?) to feel worthwhile repeating another big time investment all over again with a new skin.
The problem is I'm not convinced it's possible to get satisfying actiony combat that does not still pale in comparison to eg a FPS game or single-player action game AND all the other things a mmorpg requires designs for to mesh with as well as the limiting factor tech problems mentioned elsewhere?
So from that pov, I'm inclined to think some form of combat that allows interesting decisions and I suppose builds might fit a mmorpg better and be a different combat experience also? Eg a lot of players liked the tons of builds possible with Guild Wars (the first one), so the decisions in making a build were of interest for these people (until build wikis sorta removed the mystique of all those large numbers of viable combinations). I wonder if actually making those decisions while in combat could be possible: Thus adding the combinations + when which would go some way to making knowing builds only a quarter of the battle!? Perhaps some "time dilation" idea, so the decisions could be made and the action could be exciting but just played out a bit slower to allow players more time to react and act to what's in front of them , at any given moment??
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Pick one DDR or Guitar Hero? Do you want your buttons in a line, or in a pattern? I find it funny that almost everyone here is all about immersion, yet there is little support for action combat, the most immersive form of combat in MMO's. Do you want to tell your character what to do? or do you want to be your character? Action controls are not twitch, they are combo based, and involve locking onto a target(DCUO style{the only good part of that game}) you don't have to button mash, you only have to hit two buttons a second, any more and you aren't accomplishing anything.
Valkenr,
I'm not allergic to the concept of "Action Combat" in a game, I play a fair number of FPS games and have fun with them, and I've enjoyed Mount and Blade as well. However, I don't think it's a very good fit for THIS game.
Even if Pathfinder Online doesn't use the same mechanics as it's PnP namesake, I feel it's important that at least in some ways it reflect the FEEL and SPIRIT of that game.
Pathfinder PnP is about as opposite of "Action Combat" as you can get. It's a turn based and very tactical oriented game. Obviously you can't do turn based with an MMO...but you certainly can beef up the tactical side with the same basic systems that are common to MMO's....and the tactical depth has been pretty lacking in many of todays MMO's...so that would be a big differentiator for PFO...and I think mesh nicely with the other sorts of "thinking mans" gameplay (e.g. economics, kingdom building, etc) that GW seems to be going for. It's really tough to combine deep tactics with Action Oriented gameplay.
On top of that GW has already come out and pretty much said that they aren't going for "Action Oriented" combat....and I can't say I blame them for not wanting to tackle all the technical hurdles that entails with everything else they are taking on, and limited resources to do it with.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon,
One of the things I would also hope that PFO also achieves is reducing the "button mashing" effect that is typical of much MMO combat. It's not too bad at early levels in PvE combat where you might be only using 3 or 4 but at higher levels in PvP you litteraly might have 2 or 3 dozen abilities that you need to fire off in rapid succesion and in response to opponents movements while working the movement keys at the same time.
At that point, the game becomes less about thinking and making tactical choices and more about muscle memory, manual dexterity and memorization... it's all about being able to hit the right buttons in the right sequence swiftly enough...and alot less about making good decisions.
I'd like to see PFO remove some of that "button mashing" effect so the player can actualy spend more time and mental energy thinking about what's going on and making decisions rather then trying to remember which key-combo to hit...and do that without needing to slow down combat.
For example, alot of MMO's do something like an Enhanced Attack ability that's mapped to hotbar button and set on a cooldown. Usualy it's just a more powerfull version of a regaular attack, they may balance it by making it cost power or something...but usualy it doesn't have any other negatives. So the players standard gameplay throughout combat is to hit that button every 2.5 seconds until the combat is over unless the players power is used up or there is some other button that does a more powerfull attack that comes off cooldown. I think that sort of thing makes for rather tacticaly unsatisfying gameplay. A bit of it is ok...and can probably add to the game...but having it be the way the player does everything in combat just kills meaningfull gameplay (IMO).
What I'd rather see is something like a stance like "Defensive Fighting" that is self balancing since it adds to defense but subtracts from offense but is situationaly meaningfull...because there are times when you want more Defense the Offense...and sits on a toggle with other stances like "Offensive Fighting" where you set the one you want to use (only one such stance can be active at a time) and it stays that way until you decide to switch it to something else.
That way you get away from the "hit button every 2.5 seconds for a better attack" but you still have abilities that come with a cost (since they boost some statistic at the cost of another) and have gameplay that is tacticaly meaningfull.
I'd envision alot of the things I described (like setting a stance or threat zones, AO's) as inherent parts of the combat system rather then skills (or probably Merit Badges in PFO's case) that everybody had to start out with....although certainly Merit Badges/Skills would be a great way to aquire improved versions of them....and obviously you'd want to ensure that every strategy had some sort of foil.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@GrumpyMel, I hear you and I feel the same frustration about the current state of the MMO field. LOTRO has gotten to the point where it feels like chopping wood, and I literally feel a sense of dread when I have to enter an area with lots of mobs - not because I'm afraid of dying, but because I don't want to spend the next 30 minutes of my life chopping wood (laboriously killing mob after mob). Like you, I very much want the game to reward tactical awareness and sound decision-making, rather than rewarding good reflexes and good muscle-memory.
I think it's a great idea to have a way to set your relative Offense/Defense level where you set it once and forget about it until you want to change it. I've often thought that something like this could be intuitively implemented by having the user repeatedly hit buttons (perhaps O and D) until they are satisfied with the placement of some visual indicator. I think the same thing could be done to cycle through various run speeds as well.
If the "basic" Offensive and Defensive Stances are freely available to everyone without having to train skills, I still think there's room for Skill-Based Enhancements (Bonetti's Defense, Capa Ferro, Thibault, Agrippa). These would be like formal Chess strategies which could be countered by those who both recognize them and use an appropriate counter-strategy. I think the same could be done with Attacks of Opportunity.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon,
I'm all for things like that....and it actualy kind of mesh's nicely with the way the PnP system handles some improved combat feats....not that PFO has any obligation to harken back to PnP mechanisms....I just kinda like the concept of it occasionaly doing things which feel familiar to players of that system.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Those stances sound interesting. I remember warhammer when it was being developed by climax, tuomas pirinen was the lead designer, they were thinking along the line of stances. Although that constituted a type of attack chosen with cool-down more than anything else (or as far as they ever got in development!). But stances that buffs/boosts certain abilities as well as unlocking a few skills - that sounds more layered and tactical.
I very much want the game to reward tactical awareness and sound decision-making, rather than rewarding good reflexes and good muscle-memory.
that's a very useful distinction: I often think of fifa as tactical (how my brain has been trained, and often forget that there's usually tons of muscle memory to the dexterous success of the controls :O).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I gave Tera a shot. Did not like.
You will run into problems when you have to play 'your reflexes vs. the computer's'. Yes, you may primarily be battleing another player, but it's not SCA or Amtguard. There will be lag, there are computers involved, so it won't be realtime.
The immersion issue is rediculous. I get plenty of immersion playing table top RPGs without swinging swords at the other players for realism.
Besides, is it me fighting the monsters or my character?