Before I give an answer, I'd really like to know what about it, specifically, makes the GM and your two fellow players feel it is overpowered.
Before I give an answer, I'd really like to know what about it, specifically, makes the GM and your two fellow players feel it is overpowered.
It can trivialize encounters quite easily. You'll note that most sleep-type spells in the game have a limit on HD they can affect. The reason for that is given above :)
I'll be keeping an eye to this thread.
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You have to do what is best for your group.
I do not feel that the Sleep Hex is at all overpowered. I've DMed two campaigns with a Witch, one through high level, and I've played in two campaigns with them, one to epic level and one just for a few levels and we stopped the game.
Here's my opinion, whether it will be useful for your group in your gaming style I can't say: The DM should keep in mind a few things,...
1) Every once in a while there should be an encounter where the Sleep Hex greatly helps the party -- just like there should be an occasional encounter where the Rogue's Sneak Attack, the Monk's Movement, the Ranger's Favored Enemy, etc., etc. greatly help the party.
2) Every once in a while there should be an encounter where the Witch's Sleep Hex is completely useless -- Undead, Elves, Constructs, a few other things that are immune to Sleep; and the times where there's so many things to fight that you can use a Standard Action to make one Sleep but 20 other monsters can just wake it up on their turn in initiative making the Witch's Round wasted -- or face something with an uber Will Save. Sometimes the Hex should be useless. (Likewise with the Rogue's Sneak Attack, etc., etc.)
3) Browse some of the older Threads regarding the Sleep Hex and make sure you're doing it right. There's plenty of complicated RAW involved and it's good to know what you're doing is on the up-and-up before you decide to redesign it.
I agree with W E Ray that I don't think the Slumber hex is over powered. However, if I were to limit it, all I would do is make it scale: you can only use it on creatures who have no more HD than you do.
Sure it does. You're bound to face encounters stronger than your party which will likely compose of at least creature with more HD than you. It'd be useless in those cases especially considering you're lower in level to the other players which makes this all more likely for you.
Pretty sure monster HD increase faster than class HD. If you nerf the Slumber hex like that you won't be able to use it on anything at your CR.
Ninja'd!
Slumber (Su): A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level. This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
It's already quite limited as is.
I mean first the target gets a Will save to negate it. Even if they fail it's only rounds per level others can wake it as a standard action or if they get hit for any damage wake up. It also cannot be spammed against someone since it can only be used on a target once a day.
Before I give an answer, I'd really like to know what about it, specifically, makes the GM and your two fellow players feel it is overpowered.It can trivialize encounters quite easily. You'll note that most sleep-type spells in the game have a limit on HD they can affect. The reason for that is given above :)
I'll be keeping an eye to this thread.
Thanks - My current campaign has 2 mid-level (I think 11th level) witches in the group (out of 8 players) that like to try and chain it to control enemies, but I haven't had any real problems with it; I'm sure that's due to my encounter design. My bad guys (when they're team players) tend to aid another a lot, wake each other up, prevent coup de gras, go for the "dirty witches" a lot after their pals take a dirt nap, and so on.
I think the only real problem I see with it is due to the fact it is basically a save or die effect (sleep -> coup de gras) in many cases which you can get at very low levels.
Yeah, limiting it to HD equal to class level or lower is a bad call, it will be completely worthless against many foes due to the nature of the CR system.
I would suggest perhaps a slightly weaker effect. If he doesn't like the save or die aspect, could just nerf it to save or be dazed. Takes a monster out of the fight, but doesn't leave him open to coup de grace.
I'll argue it this little bit - a beginner ability doesn't require the same potency through 20th level. This is in several classes.
However, if I were to limit it, all I would do is make it scale: you can only use it on creatures who have no more HD than you do.
That's probably what I'd go with, too.
I've played a witch with the Slumber hex, and found it was trivializing some encounters. My idea: limit it's use to when there is more than one opponent. That way the hex helps win the encounter without just deciding it outright.
I found this is another thread, and thought it an interesting solution to capping the maximum HD affected, though I do NOT know how well it would work in play:
Allow higher HD creatures a bonus to their save or give them a lesser effect: Maybe monsters with higher HD than the witch are only dazed for a single round by the hex or get a +2 or higher bonus on the save?
How about granting them a bonus to their saves based on HD or CR difference? +1 per 2 hit die higher, or even +2?
22 Int + dreamspeaker elf trait makes DC 20.
Ok, good to know. I am unlikely to have nearly the same experience you're having with the witch I just started running. At 1st level her slumber hex has a DC 14; by 6th level, where you are, it would only be DC 17.
(Well, 19 or more if she can acquire an INT-boosting headband, but I can't count on that. As our party lacks a Sor/Wiz or a Bard, the spell required to make one would have to be obtained via scroll and UMD.)
EDIT: Or by adding +5 to the crafting DC. Duh.
Another idea, which I may test would be to go with this:
HD -> Failed Save Effect
7+ -> Staggered for the duration.
6 or less -> Sleep for the duration.
Edit: I determined HD requirements by averaging Symbol of Sleep & the Sleep spell. I think it's at a good place, opinion only mind you.
I know I'm "staggered" when I wake up or am drowsy.=P
Slumber (Su) A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, a creature with 6 HD or less falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level; a creature with 7 HD or more is staggered for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level. A sleeping creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action and damage immediately awakens the creature. If awakened, the creature is staggered for the remaining duration of the slumber hex. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Our group houseruled coup de grace rather than Slumber. Slumber works as it says on the box, but a coup de grace is just an automatic crit, no fort save. For mooks it amounts to the same thing, but for big bads it's great damage and very useful, but not actually lethal. Generally. We've been playing this way for quite a while, in several groups, and it works out well. (It also makes random PC death slightly less likely when facing paralysing monsters, but honestly we like that too.)
ETA: Also, we love any chance to use crit cards. Might be less fun if you don't.
I really must again disagree with the "HD up to your level" nerf. Most monsters that are much of a threat at all will be outright immune with this set rule. And most intriguingly, the few that *can* still be affected will be things like powerful outsiders or humanoid NPCs w/ class levels, who tend to hover around CR = HD and also tend to feature as "boss" encounters in my experience.
So it's just an all around bad idea.
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Another option might be to make it like some other 'save or X' effects like hold person, and allow another saving throw each round to snap out of it.
Or it could just daze the target for the duration, putting them into a sleepy state, but not causing them to drop their weapons or fall prone or become helpless for a coup de grace. That would be a significant power-down, but still allow the witch to shut people down fairly reliably for a short time, allowing the group to focus on other targets.
Re: Soul Devourer - scaling to the level may work, anything beyond is staggered or dazed or whatever.
Re: Dazing Hex or Using Daze for slumber: I think the dazing hex is a great idea, but at that point you're just removing slumber altogether instead of "fixing it," which is perfectly fine (in my opinion).
IMO, best use of Slumber is to ready* or delay to use it just before an ally's turn who's already in melee, so the fact they can be slapped awake is pretty inconcensequential.
*I like readying better, cause then you can ruin the enemy's turn, like let them move into melee for you, then disrupt their attack. Robbing someone of their turn just makes me feel good inside. Don't know why, it just does.
Different characters shine in different situations. Would you want to nerf a ranger with Favoured Enemy: Undead in an undead-heavy campaign? The GM should vary the encounters a bit, that way, you can't sleep everything.
Something as simple as replacing some humans with half-elves would change the balance of power.
Even giving monsters Iron Will and Imp. Iron Will will make the hex much less likely to stick.
Also, another way to look at it: You have a DC 20 save or die effect. You could build a two-handed fighter that one-shots everything on the roll of a 3. Not much difference. Optimized characters are optimized. Its not the hex that is broken.
I would suggest a recharge of 1d4 -1 rounds.
I would suggest a recharge of 1d4 -1 rounds.
As long as Accursed Hex is modified to let you retry at the earliest opportunity (when it becomes available again), rather than next round. Sure.
just roughing out a not-too-nerfish option:
Postulating that the 'once per target per day' limit is explained by the Slumber Hex sticking to the target, win or lose, and that energy must dissipate before the witch can make that change again. Accursed Hex lets you try again? That's because you're SO powerful, you can pile on a second dose.
So count those against the Witch. Say she's got INT mod Slumber Hex dweomerons, and she uses one to throw the Hex, a second to throw the Accursed second Hex... and they stick to the target.
If the target is slain while they stick, or awakened by damage or shaking, the dweomer stays on the target, and is lost to the witch. They are remade by her in 24 hours. (The Accursed 2nd should return immediately, I think, or perhaps more flavorfully, be vacuumed off the fallen foe after the battle. Wait, broomed off, Nature abhors a vacuum.)
If the target runs out the time of the slumber, the dweomer returns to the Witch (but the target's still immune, a lingering taint protects as usual, or with Accursed in the scene, two layers of taint are needed to protect).
So the witch we're talking about will have 6 uses of Slumber, and lose one for every foe Slumbered and killed, and one for every foe Slumbered and awakened roughly. If a foe is Slumbered and allowed to awaken at the end of the Slumber, the use is regained by the witch. And if the witch has used Accursed Slumber, those Accursed uses either do not count against her, or (perhaps) can be regained by the witch as a full-round action while in contact with the foe (or his corpse). Perhaps a DC:?? Spellcraft roll needs to be made, with +DC per INT rounds that have passed since the death of the foe? Perhaps that opens the door to discussions about regaining the un-Accursed uses in a similar way?
Sometimes detail helps flavor, sometimes it's just burden. I can't know what will work for your table. I've tried to keep the above flavorful, and in line with 'ammunition that hits a target is destroyed, ammunition that misses might be regained'.
How optimized are you? How buffed is the save DC for that slumber hex?22 Int + dreamspeaker elf trait makes DC 20. I offered the DM to drop the trait or drop the +1 to DC in exchange of the spell dream once per day (as per the trait, but I have 14 CHA and not 15). That would've been consistent with the nightmare effect, but he turned down. Btw, not sure the +1 to DC makes a huge difference.
Dreamspeaker doesn't work with Slumber. Slumber is not a spell. A dev posted on it in the rules forums.
What kind of enemies are you mainly fighting? Also how many enemies. Also if you have them fight another spellcaster with a familiar the familiar can wake the sleeping person up.
I'm playing a witch myself, level 8 now, and a good DC on slumber. All I have to say is that it's not overpowered at all.
Leveling up, far too often we came across enemies that were mind or sleep immune. So not only could I not use sleep, I couldn't use evil eye either, and my only useful hex (if it landed) was misfortune. My spells meant far too often I was a limited cure light bot with minor utility.
And even when slumber worked, there rarely was an automatic coup de gras, half the time we were busy with other foes and I was counting the rounds until the enemy woke up again. That is reality.
Our last fight was quite memorable, we were facing a single caster undeground, with resources used up in a previous encounter. Black tentacles shut down our party, and the fight wrapped up with our tank unconcious, our alchemist dead, our wizard fled and spell-less (wizard and I had dimension doored out of the tentacles, tank got free when the tentacles fumbled the maintain grapple check then got blasted by caster).
I had blinked through a wall to get back to the caster without going through the black tentacles, so when the fight wrapped up the caster was blind (my one spell that landed), blindly firing spells trying to hit me, and I was trying to swat him with my prehensile hair, having absolutely 0 other abilities with which I could actually hit him, no way remaining of healing myself or the downed tank, and slumber having failed on the caster. Where slumber did help was in taking out his summons (and him being blind didn't clue in), but even then I lucked out on the save there. When the fight ended I was at 7 hp, any lucky blind fired spell could have taken me out in previous rounds.
What does that long ramble have to do with slumber balanced? As powerful as it can be when the enemy isn't immune or doesn't have friends to wake him, when it fails you gain nothing (no damage done, no action interrupted), and between limited spells and abilities, when it comes down to the witch you give up a lot for these hexes.
Sometimes an overpowered feat/spell/ability is merely the result of the DM/player not properly understanding its use.