I'd be lying if I said no.
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Sure. Everyone with this specific build who wants to rebuild it to make sure they stay away from being nerfed in the future have until March 31 to do so.
Keep in mind that this was March 31, 2013. If you created a character combining these archetypes after this date, then you created an illegal character and are now retired. Even though this post was in the middle of a thread that was lost on the nth page and you didn't know to go looking for it to begin with. It's not like there used to be a sticky for message board clarifications or anything like that where this could have been more visible for the last 11 months.
[/snark]
For the record, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't play gunslingers of any archetype. I just think this whole thing could have been handled more visibly, and more quickly.
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A PFS specific FAQ could have been put up that day. A note in Additional Resources could have been put up that Wednesday. A post could have been made and stickied that day. A note could have been made in the Guide, which was updated not once, but twice since this ruling was made.
If you want to make a rule change/clarification/whatever then make it. Don't make a reference to someone else possibly making it in the future, and then say you have a month to comply with the rule change/clarification/whatever that might get made eventually. The fact of the matter is that players of Mysterious Pistoleros have negative ten months to comply with this latest FAQ, and face character retirement if they don't comply within negative ten months.
Can you imagine what it would have been like if the same stance had been taken with flurry of blows? At least those players were given a real choice: rebuild then with the current ruling, or wait to see what the final ruling would be before rebuilding.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sure. Everyone with this specific build who wants to rebuild it to make sure they stay away from being nerfed in the future have until March 31 to do so.Keep in mind that this was March 31, 2013. If you created a character combining these archetypes after this date, then you created an illegal character and are now retired. Even though this post was in the middle of a thread that was lost on the nth page and you didn't know to go looking for it to begin with. It's not like there used to be a sticky for message board clarifications or anything like that where this could have been more visible for the last 11 months.
[/snark]
For the record, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't play gunslingers of any archetype. I just think this whole thing could have been handled more visibly, and more quickly.
There's no point in acting all surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for fifty of your Earth years so you've had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaints and it's far too late to start making a fuss about it now.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I'd think people could still pay PP to retrain (since Ultimate Campaign wasn't an option when MB made that decision), so long as they did it before they played another session. If they don't have enough Prestige, then they'd have to retire.
OR GM and apply the credits till they have enough PP to retrain.
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I'd think people could still pay PP to retrain (since Ultimate Campaign wasn't an option when MB made that decision), so long as they did it before they played another session. If they don't have enough Prestige, then they'd have to retire.OR GM and apply the credits till they have enough PP to retrain.
FLite, I think we should wait for campaign staff to officially comment on something like this before we promote it.
Ultimate Campaign was something that was only a couple months off when Mike posted about not allowing retrains if you didn't retrain prior to March 31, 2013
I'm sure he was quite aware that he was going to be allowing some form of retraining from Ultimate campaign.
He very specifically wrote that:
...we do not allow any type of rebuild...
So I'd wait a bit before you start promoting ways to get around that until they've had a chance to make an official comment.
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I think that we can be reasonable. In most cases we know who are knew players that could have legitimately thought there was no loophole and thought it was all kosher.
We also likely know who was purposefully exploiting a loophole. So to those who were in this category, I don't care when they made the character, purposefully exploiting a loophole is malicious and has no place in organized play.
You reap what you sow.
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That said, he stated NEARLY A YEAR AGO that this was a loophole, and warned back then of the consequences for continuing to abuse it, so I have very little (read: no) sympathy for anyone who now has to deal with the explicitly stated consequences.
I'm firmly in this camp.
If you have prestige and own Ultimate Campaign, then retrain should be fine. If not the character is unplayable, and GM credits shouldn't be able to fix that.
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I should also point out the GtPFSOP touches on GMs verifying the legality of the PCs (by way of auditing), but is noticeably silent on the topic of the GM having to audit their own characters.
It's silent on that topic, in my opinion, due to the ability to have a character with nothing but GM credit who is little more then a blob of experience, because the character is yet to actually have been built.
I do not however feel that an illegal character should be able to get GM credit, however I feel that there should be a path to legality for these characters, despite myself arguing all along that they were never legal to begin with. Maybe if the character in question doesn't have enough Prestige to retrain out of one of the archetypes (which will likely be out of pistolero, since retraining cannot change stats) they can simply lose all of their remaining prestige to remove the offending archetype. I understand that some people have have abused the loophole knowing that it was a loophole, and I have no sympathy for those people, and I'm convinced that the majority of mysterious stranger pistolero combo characters have had plenty of time to have been made aware of this thread or this issue, but there may be a more isolated group somewhere that was unaware of it.
I do want to note that something again seems to have slipped past the radar however, because the issue I pointed out with the other gunslinger archtype that makes it RAW illegal to everyone is not expressed in the errata. I'm referring to the Musket Master, which according to the errata only has these changes.
• Page 50—In the Musket Master archetype, in the Weapon Proficiency class feature, in the last sentence, change “two-handed firearms” to “one-handed firearms”.
I'm happy to see that the mysterious stranger will now get access to gun training 2-4
Musket users got the Double Barreled musket range fixed to 40 feet, as an aside.
Not as bad an effect on action economy as the multi-pistol builds, but I'm guessing a lot of musket masters might be happy.
-j
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Musket users got the Double Barreled musket range fixed to 40 feet, as an aside.
Not as bad an effect on action economy as the multi-pistol builds, but I'm guessing a lot of musket masters might be happy.
-j
It's okay.. I like the range fix. I have a +1 Conductive double barrel musket and it is nice when you don't want to pause between reloads. Makes it easier to move/shoot without worrying about reloads. (I dislike using the 'double tap' that often.
Personally, as a side note, I think the double-tap shooting bit should be a standard actions.
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If someones character was being watched that closely they were probably told about the impending ax.
If someone is outside of organized play loop they're probably just going to turn it back without anyone noticing.
Ya, the hardcore players may be out a character, and it may hardly matter to them. Most people knew it was a loop hole and knew they took a risk. Though I had never seen that thread on rebuilds myself, and I'm relatively active on these boards.
Who it hurts is the newb who didn't realize it and has 1 or 2 PC's and now lost one of them. If its his high level character he may never come back to organized play. I think they should be a little less harsh on this, like if you have 3 characters or less, your probably not a rules Nazi and can be hand waved a rebuild. If your like me and have a ton of PC's, you probably knew better.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I should also point out the GtPFSOP touches on GMs verifying the legality of the PCs (by way of auditing), but is noticeably silent on the topic of the GM having to audit their own characters.It's silent on that topic, in my opinion, due to the ability to have a character with nothing but GM credit who is little more then a blob of experience, because the character is yet to actually have been built.
I do not however feel that an illegal character should be able to get GM credit, however I feel that there should be a path to legality for these characters, despite myself arguing all along that they were never legal to begin with.
I am for anything that causes more people to GM. If the character was "legal", last time it was played, and if you can apply GM credits to anything, even a statless blob, I see nothing under the rules to say that you can't just assign GM credits till you have enough to retrain. Among other things, the longer they have been playing this broken character, the longer they will have to build up PP, and the further behind the resource curve they will be when they do get to play it again.
Now the interesting question is: If I assign enough credits to get PP, and in the process, I rise a level, do I automatically go up a level in the now illegal dual archtype class, possibly increasing the cost of retraining if that adds an archtype feature that has to be retrained?
For that matter, has anyone done the breakdown on how much PP is would cost to retrain out of the archtype at each level? (I assume the price might be different depending on whether you are going Pistolero or Mysterious stranger.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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I am for anything that causes more people to GM. If the character was "legal", last time it was played, and if you can apply GM credits to anything, even a statless blob, I see nothing under the rules to say that you can't just assign GM credits till you have enough to retrain.
You can't apply GM credit to a dead character to raise themselves, so it would be safer to go by the understanding that GM credits can only be applied to a legal character. At least until Mike or John make a formal ruling on the matter.
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I am for anything that causes more people to GM. If the character was "legal", last time it was played, and if you can apply GM credits to anything, even a statless blob, I see nothing under the rules to say that you can't just assign GM credits till you have enough to retrain.You can't apply GM credit to a dead character to raise themselves, so it would be safer to go by the understanding that GM credits can only be applied to a legal character. At least until Mike or John make a formal ruling on the matter.
I see this as making the most sense in this situation as well.
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The whole reason Stranger, a.k.a Blondie, a.k.a. The Man With No Name, uses the metal chest plate in "A Fistful of Dollars" is to get close to rifle-expert Ramon because he is much better with a pistol than a rifle. Obviously he took Exotic Weapon proficiency so he could shoot a rifle too.Blondie also used a rifle. He wasn't a pistolero.Cheese or no cheese, its quintessential Eastwood.I'm sure the ONLY reason to do this combination is for flavor.Cheese has flavor.
The multiple "Man with No Name" characters played by Clint Eastwood were never intended to be the same character, and the three movies Sergio Leone filmed weren't meant to be a trilogy in the traditional sense. He just filmed three westerns with the same actors, and the Italian props department recycled some of the same outfits because they looked cool and it saved money.
That idea that it was a trilogy, and that he was playing the same character in each, was invented after the fact as a marketing gimmick by the US distributor.
It just worked out that Leone's mysterious loner gunfighters were ripped off from Akira Kurosawa's mysterious loner samurai ... who had been ripped off from Dashiell Hammett's mysterious loner detective, The Continental Op.
Which is kind of neat, considering that The Continental Op also inspired Sam Spade and the other film noir detectives. Different writers taking the same character, emphasizing different aspects of his personality, and basically inventing two distinct genres by accident (Spaghetti Westerns and Hard Boiled Detectives).
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The last sentence leads me to believe that even paying for a retrain through Ultimate Campaign would not be allowed.
That is my understanding.
I just think this whole thing could have been handled more visibly, and more quickly.
Pretty much every player using this knew it wasn't really RAW but rather RAW (Rules as Wiggled.)
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No rebuild means that you can't use UC Retaining, you can't add Prestige to the Dead character, etc.
It means the character is dead and we all are rejoicing in the streets.
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You can't apply GM credit to a dead character to raise themselvesBecause they've been reported as dead. As I said before, an illegal character isn't reported as dead, as they have to actually have to PLAY in a scenario to be reported for that scenario.
So, yeah, they're not dead, they just can't be played.
In theory its Schrodinger's character.
In practice...
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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You can't apply GM credit to a dead character to raise themselvesBecause they've been reported as dead. As I said before, an illegal character isn't reported as dead, as they have to actually have to PLAY in a scenario to be reported for that scenario.
So, yeah, they're not dead, they just can't be played.
FLite said in his post that GM credit could be applied to any character. I was clarifying that is not always true.
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Musket users got the Double Barreled musket range fixed to 40 feet, as an aside.
Not as bad an effect on action economy as the multi-pistol builds, but I'm guessing a lot of musket masters might be happy.
-j
It's okay.. I like the range fix. I have a +1 Conductive double barrel musket and it is nice when you don't want to pause between reloads. Makes it easier to move/shoot without worrying about reloads. (I dislike using the 'double tap' that often.
Personally, as a side note, I think the double-tap shooting bit should be a standard actions.
Nah, just make it work like Manyshot, where you get the extra shot only on the first attack of a full attack action, and it uses the same attack roll, so two hits or two misses, then the rest of yoru attacks would be limited to standard single barrel shots. Remove the -4 penalty, and it gives the Gunslinger something akin to Manyshot without running into the insanity which is 8 shots at 12th level with a musket or 16(?) with pistols and TWF.
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I suspect the same type of individual will silently correct their characters.
Oh hells no. If I ran for someone that used to play that build, and I found out they had illegally retrained, I would mark them as dead when I reported that scenario. Just because I'm irritated about how it was handled, doesn't mean that I'm going to allow actual blatant cheating.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Kinevon, they got rid of the swift action weapon cords. The 16 shot Double barrel pistol thing should now not work.
Also, don't forget that without greater reliable (a +3 bonus) there starts to be a pretty good chance of destroying your weapon with this tactic. Since you are making two shots at the same time in each attack, if you roll two misfires, the gun is destroyed.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Kinevon, they got rid of the swift action weapon cords. The 16 shot Double barrel pistol thing should now not work.
Also, don't forget that without greater reliable (a +3 bonus) there starts to be a pretty good chance of destroying your weapon with this tactic. Since you are making two shots at the same time in each attack, if you roll two misfires, the gun is destroyed.
A gun is destroyed on a misfire only when it has the broken condition. If both barrels misfire simultaneously, then at no time does the gun have the broken condition at the time of either misfire.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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A gun is destroyed on a misfire only when it has the broken condition. If both barrels misfire simultaneously, then at no time does the gun have the broken condition at the time of either misfire.Kinevon, they got rid of the swift action weapon cords. The 16 shot Double barrel pistol thing should now not work.
Also, don't forget that without greater reliable (a +3 bonus) there starts to be a pretty good chance of destroying your weapon with this tactic. Since you are making two shots at the same time in each attack, if you roll two misfires, the gun is destroyed.
You are welcome to that argument. I will even allow you to use it, provided you also accept that since the attacks are simultaneous, the same argument applies to the damage the gun deals to it's target.
i.e. The target has received 0 damage previously. One shot deals 8 damage, the other shot deals 10 damage. Since the target's damage is 0 at the start of each shot, the first shot raises the target's damage to 0+8= 8, the second shot raises the target's damage to 0+10=10. The target has now received 10 damage.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I think, at my table, I would rule with trollbill, although I understand that there's a gray area there, and I wouldn't fault a GM for ruling otherwise.
Let's say a double-barreled pistol has one misfire. Does the misfiring shot take the -4 penalty? (Generally, no.) Does the other shot? (Do we need to figure out which shot "resolves first"?)
Philosophically speaking, I want my players to weigh risk versus benefits, not get clobbered by bad dice rolls when they're playing well. Deciding to fire a broken or uncleared weapon is a risk, and if a character decides to chance it, then there we go. But firing a gun in good shape is what a Gunslinger ought to do. Destroying the weapon immediately doesn't help the game.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Except that the chance of the gun completely and instantly self destructing is what makes the two barreled weapons balanced. The fact that people ignore that is a large part of why the gunslinger dual weapon builds are unbalanced and constantly having to be nerfed.
The sequence I see it is this.
The gun Fires twice.
Since at the time it was fired, no misfire has occurred. So you do not apply a modifier to either shot.
Roll for each shot (Assume two misfires.)
Shots hit, damage is resolved. First one, then the other. Doesn't matter which order.
Two Misfires are applied. First one, then the other. Doesn't matter which order.
If you want to argue that since the misfires are simultaneous, then you only apply one, then I am going to argue that since the damages are simultaneous, you only apply one.
So if you are using your gun to double shot every round, every iterative, then you are taking a risk. Probably you should only do it if you consider yourself lucky, or have a folio reroll, or your gun is magic and you have a backup weapon. (If the gun is magic, it is just disabled and can be repaired with a make whole spell if I recall correctly.) Or if you are level 11 (where you get expert loader)
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When a gun misfires, it's effectively losing half of it's HP, since its gaining the broken condition. If it happens twice at once, it loses half it's HP twice, destroying it, just like any other item whose HP hits 0.
That's my view on it anyway, though like Chris, I dont care one way or the other if someone else wants to rule it more leniently.
*I understand a gun gaining the broken condition hasnt actually lost any HP. But an item that does lose half its HP does become broken. So while
Misfire= Broken
Half HP= Broken
Misfire=/= Half HP
exactly, it's an easier way to think about it
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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
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This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack. If both barrels are fired at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the gun becomes wildly inaccurate, taking a –4 penalty on each shot. Each barrel of a double-barreled musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.
Bolding mine.
Not sure what others might read in there, but when using a double barreled gun firing both barrels at once, the character doing that action has to roll attack twice and each attack get´s a -4 penalty. You also should say which attack is the first and the second, because of the misfire rules. It does matter wether the first or the second shot misfire.
Some might argue that it says "at once as the same attack", what it does in ingame time. But it also says it´s two separate shots, with two attacks, one of which comes first mechanically. So if the first is a misfire and the second too, the gun becomes broken and then explodes. If this happens in a not measurable ingame time amount, it doesn´t matter.
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Best advice here would be, if you're playing a Gunslinger with a double barreled gun, to let the GM know ahead of game time and ask him/her how they would rule it to be, and explain the arguments if they are unfamiliar with them. This will obviously have to be one of those things left up to GM discretion, until an FAQ is issued.
If you are of the camp that decides that two natural 1s results in a wrecked gun, however, you must also rule that the misfire penalty from the 1st shot applies to the 2nd shot (when only one misfire is rolled, obviously). I can't see any other way around that.
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Kinevon, they got rid of the swift action weapon cords. The 16 shot Double barrel pistol thing should now not work.
You just need to use other ways to get it to work. If you don't find some ridiculous tail or extra arm plan, at bare minimum, you can stay in the CRB for your reloading and use Gloves of Storing.
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A gun is destroyed on a misfire only when it has the broken condition. If both barrels misfire simultaneously, then at no time does the gun have the broken condition at the time of either misfire.Kinevon, they got rid of the swift action weapon cords. The 16 shot Double barrel pistol thing should now not work.
Also, don't forget that without greater reliable (a +3 bonus) there starts to be a pretty good chance of destroying your weapon with this tactic. Since you are making two shots at the same time in each attack, if you roll two misfires, the gun is destroyed.
You are welcome to that argument. I will even allow you to use it, provided you also accept that since the attacks are simultaneous, the same argument applies to the damage the gun deals to it's target.
i.e. The target has received 0 damage previously. One shot deals 8 damage, the other shot deals 10 damage. Since the target's damage is 0 at the start of each shot, the first shot raises the target's damage to 0+8= 8, the second shot raises the target's damage to 0+10=10. The target has now received 10 damage.
I see why you are making the argument. But tge analogy is not sound. Now I agree with you that the gun explodes if both barrels misfire. But he at least has a somewhat valid argument. Your rebuttal has absolutely zero basis with the rules
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Except that the chance of the gun completely and instantly self destructing is what makes the two barreled weapons balanced. The fact that people ignore that is a large part of why the gunslinger dual weapon builds are unbalanced and constantly having to be nerfed.
There are no precedents in the rules that suggest a random chance of destroying a 2,000+ gp weapon is meant to be a balancing factor. Ergo, nothing in the rules supports you balance argument.
The sequence I see it is this.
The gun Fires twice.
Since at the time it was fired, no misfire has occurred. So you do not apply a modifier to either shot.
Roll for each shot (Assume two misfires.)
Shots hit, damage is resolved. First one, then the other. Doesn't matter which order.
Two Misfires are applied. First one, then the other. Doesn't matter which order.
And, again, you lack precedence. All precedence in the rules suggest that if you can make multiple attack rolls that you can stop that attack sequence at any time. That would mean that if firing a double-barrel weapon is not a simultaneous attack, then they should be able to stop the second attack after the first one misfires, thus preventing the destruction of the weapon, but the rules for double-barrel weapons do not suggest that the rolls are separate. So either they are simulations and don't cause destruction, or they are not simultaneous and can be stopped before destruction. Any other interpretation is simply not supported by the rules.
If you want to argue that since the misfires are simultaneous, then you only apply one, then I am going to argue that since the damages are simultaneous, you only apply one.
And for the 3rd time, nothing in the rules supports this. In fact, the rules for Clustered Shot support just the opposite.
So 3 rules interpretations by you, none of which are supported by the rules in the least with the end result being to randomly screw over double barrel weapon users. In short, you are using a loophole in the rules, just like the players of the Pistolero/Mysterious Stranger build were using. A behavior that has been decried as unethical by most of the people on this thread, yet you wish to promote this as somehow being fair.
So if you are using your gun to double shot every round, every iterative, then you are taking a risk. Probably you should only do it if you consider yourself lucky, or have a folio reroll, or your gun is magic and you have a backup weapon. (If the gun is magic, it is just disabled and can be repaired with a make whole spell if I recall correctly.) Or if you are level 11 (where you get expert loader)
I don't have a problem with this issue since I have Stranger's Fortune with my gunslinger. That doesn't mean I don't still think your ruling is wrong both in its base reasoning and its base motivation.
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I would bet that the developers did not intend double-barreled muskets to be destroyed on a single shot like most people here are describing.
Your ruling would have the gun destroyed 8.25% of the time. A player could expect to get about 12 shots out of the thing. This works out to a little over 200 gp per shot.
That is assuming they are using regular bullets. A double-barreled musket loaded with paper cartridges would be destroyed 16% of the time. A player could expect to get about 6.25 shots out of it. This amounts to 400 gp per shot.