Can anything justify retrying a knowledge check?


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I wish I knew the answer to this, but I don't. I'd look it up in the PRD, but why bother? I already thought about it and didn't know the answer, and I can't try again, even with new information. I am incapable by RAW of finding this information in a book or other resource. I should just throw away my corebook, since any rule I don't know off-the-top-of-my-head is forever inaccessible to me.


In the Carrion Crown Adventure Path there is a research quest in the first book, as it seems to be you can retry some knowledge checks via expending a day in a library, there is no mention about there has to be a new player every time the party try.


Old days at the library one would hire a sage to look things up for you....

So how much to hire an NPC to make the roll for you?


Two people in the party make the knowledge check - one succeeds and the other fails. So the one who succeeds can never tell the one who failed what they know because it would be the equivilent of them gaining knowledge that they didn't previously have.

No, the guy who passed is a source of knowledge that the guy who failed has access to. A library is a source of knowledge that someone who failed a knowledge check might also have access to.

What the GM has to consider is:
How likely is the library to have the knowledge?
How readily available is it? (time spent searching, money spent getting help to find it)
Could they find the knowledge if it is available? A lot of adults can't navigate a library; lower intelligence characters might not be able to either.
What actions did they take when they failed the first time? If they didn't write anything down then they may not remember enough about it by the time they reach a library to look it up properly.

Future experience could also justify a reroll. We caught a minion and interrogated him - maybe he didn't tell us what we need to know, but he could have said enough to spark someone's memory. The GM has to use their own judgment as to when to allow that and whether or not to give any bonuses to the roll.


The Mighty Khan wrote:
I wish I knew the answer to this, but I don't. I'd look it up in the PRD, but why bother? I already thought about it and didn't know the answer, and I can't try again, even with new information. I am incapable by RAW of finding this information in a book or other resource. I should just throw away my corebook, since any rule I don't know off-the-top-of-my-head is forever inaccessible to me.

Well, Good news!

As by Grick's suggestion, I found someone else to answer the question. How's that for sticking by the RAW?

The quotes below have been shortened to include only the related question, and JJ's answer.

James Jacobs wrote:
Bane Wraith wrote:

...

3) Do the rules as written currently allow a Knowledge Check to be retried at any time? Does anything justify rerolling a knowledge check? (Access to library, level up, a new bonus, cognatogen, minimum time between tries, etc.) ( Thread )

...

...

3) Under "Try Again" for Knowledge, it says "No." So... no. That said, I would allow a player to roll a new knowledge check for a topic he previously failed if he gains a greater bonus (such as by gaining skill ranks or Intelligence, or because he's using a well-stocked library). That's a GM fiat ruling though, and if your GM doesn't want to do that, you need to respect that decision.

...

...I guess that's that.


The carrion crown AP cover this some what the party has several checks with very high DC's for 1-2 levels. The use of any of the available libraries lets them retry each day. ( and thank god ory party would have been level 6 before they got some. )


These are all great comments and helped me to avoid a tedious process I was considering implementing. I was thinking that any increase in intelligence or adding a skill point would allow you to ADD to what you previously knew so writing down what previous rolls had yielded and the point level that information had come from would be needed (and then add whatever new facts you got from a new roll). But considering my own experience I must say the whole concept of knowledge in the moment makes so much sense especially when the Bard comes into play. This is a class that goes through mental training to be able to recall and use information in the moment (anyone that has to entertain would appreciate this) so having the loremaster etc. ability fits with this, and a wizard that could be considered to be like a brainy but absent minded scientist that can arduously work though a complex formula (ie. remember a complex spell through daily meditation) and pop out the trigger isn't exactly the life of the party when it comes to impromptu off the cuff jokes or comments.

Also, what you remember in one incident isn't necessarily what you will in the next...sometimes an obscure fact will be right at the fore whereas some simple bit will be elusive and vice versa. An increase in intelligence and knowledge means you are more likely to remember a factoid in the moment, and a take ten (for use say if you are doing a clairvoyance and see a monster on the other side of the door and can take your time to study it a bit after your initial alarm) makes sense to me under certain circumstances using the rules as they are also. I had also thought of some sort of reflection of knowing what worked in one incident (especially considering learning theory) might give you a bonus to recalling the same fact again (and I might do something with this in the future) but once again you just might be having a brain fart moment as that giant demonic spider is getting ready to charge your party and forget that is isn't immune to the typical spread that most demons are....so go ahead and use that normal arrow instead of your cold iron one, my elven archer friend.

To throw an interesting wrinkle into the mix, however, might be to reflect time at the academy by allowing for open use of type and subtype knowledge outside of combat especially when considering prep. Don't tell me there isn't a Dragon 101 class at wizard school, and that if you knew a red dragon was in the cave you are going into the next day you wouldn't prepare your cone of cold versus trying to blast it with a fireball.....and that considering the type and subtype information can be put in a few bestiary pages you couldn't put this down in a simple appendix of your spell book. One could also say that your average cleric would have this just as a class feature about a few types and subtypes, but religions can be so full of obfuscation and bad/conflicting information the inherent nature of it excludes the same kind of experiment and fact based skill that (Bards just by virtue of being quick witted mentats and social sponges, wizards due to training and practice) have.

So I can stick with the rules as they are....what a relief! Lo and Behold the Wisdom of The Game....and the magic of simplicity.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

d20 Modern had a skill called Research that reflected one's ability to find information in a library and that was distinct from Knowledge skills. Since neither Pathfinder nor D&D 3.5 has that skill, library research would have to be covered by other means.

Maybe taking 20 on a Linguistics check would be the way to go?


The nice thing about skills is that GMs are encouraged to modify skill checks as appropriate--and even find creative new uses for such skills. For examples, see almost any published Paizo module or AP ever. If it makes sense for the party to be able to retry a Knowledge check in context, then the GM can allow the check. Gaining access to a new relevant store of Knowledge is one of those cases where I'd allow another check.

Barring all of that, there's more than one way to skin a cat. If you're in a setting where a library is available to bring up such questions, chances are there are NPCs available with decent Knowledge skills. Alternately, there's the gather information action using Diplomacy. Both may be required (gather information to find a local expert).


I generally use a rule of thumb about Knowledge Skill rolls. The DC indicates the basic/common knowledge that someone would know with that roll. I don't use is as an on off switch. If the DC is 15 to know about a goblin for example, and the PC rolls a 15, then they'd know it was a goblin, and maybe a few of the general traits of a goblin. If they roll significantly lower, I may give them some misinformation about the creature. If they rolled much higher, I'd give them extra information on special resistances or defenses, etc. That way, regardless of the roll, at least they're getting something, not just a "You don't remember anything." Likewise if it's a piece of information they have to have in order to advance the story, any roll is going to get them that information, I then use the roll to indicate how much time it takes them to get the info. A low roll indicates difficulty, so a much longer time to get the info (it took them an exhaustive search through the library, or they had to hunt down experts in the field), a high roll indicates that it took less time (the pc remembered most of the information from his/her experiences, and used the library just to vet the information.).

I think this approach takes a lot of the "on off" mentality that too many people take to skills out of the equation, and makes for a more engrossing way to do it. The PCs at any point know they have information, but may not know how viable it is. The key is that they always get something.


What I dislike about the Knowledge skill as "what you know" is that in all other skills "rolling the dice" means "how well you tried". Only when it comes to the Knowledge skill does that change into "random chance that it's something you knew".

I mean, as a game mechanic it can function. But just like the Craft skill, it runs against the grain and offends my sensibilities.

And knowledge gets used a heckuva lot more in gaming than crafting mundane items. /sigh

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