I'm pretty sure that an independent conservative is considered a right-winger, Citizen Aretas.
2. Michael Savage is not a right winger. Goes to show how much you know about him. He is and independent conservative. Stop regurgitating bullsh*t. To you anyone with a conservative opinion is a right wing nut job.
I'm still in the camp that says there is a difference.
Aretas,
You know history but think the US deposed the Shah? I don't claim to know history at all and even I know that's b+#$!#+@. If you can't even get really basic facts like that right, why should anyone take you even slightly seriously?Also, taking responsibility for their mistakes? Yeah, it would be nice if the West did that occasionally, rather than acting outraged that anyone should call them on their support for murderous dictators. That was a decision. It was, from a geopolitical point of view at the time, a very sensible decision. However, if you were the one living in fear of getting killed for nothing, well, hating the people propping up your particular brand of madman is hardly an unreasonable position. America, to use your own words, needs to accept the responsibility for its own actions.
Oh, and please don't put words in my mouth so you can strawman them to death. It's not a very good way of influencing people. They tend to notice. Diplomacy is going to be pretty tough owing to the justified hatred you've bult up against you. That's the consequence of your actions. Accept responsibility for it and stop blaming the people you helped oppress for decades for getting pissed at you now that they're free.
Oh, and could you perhaps mention all the great things America has done in the region? You can't just assert these marvellous and wonderful things without evidence. I, at least, gave you examples of the s&%+ty things the US has done. Your turn.
WOW man you need to kick your history teacher in the nuts!!! No need to apologize to me, just learn and go forward please. If we cannot agree on this I don't see us talking about any of the other points you asked me to answer. Useless.
Yeah, the US "ousted" the Shah. By telling him, while the revolution was in full swing, that we wouldn't support him any longer.
Just like we "ousted"...
Yes I agree. What I dont agree with is the assertion that the revolution was in full swing or the writting was on the wall.
Perhaps for the muslim fundamentalists it always was. From what I read/heard there was civil unrest ofcourse but itwas not a mass revolutionary movement.
The parallels to Egypt are so striking btw.
During two years of popular unrest the US backed the Shah, but he appeared to be zombie-like and ineffective so, eventually, they let his regime collapse.
Compare that with regimes the US actually deposed:
For starters. Others can add to the list if they like.
I'm still in the camp that says there is a difference.I'm pretty sure that an independent conservative is considered a right-winger, Citizen Aretas.
2. Michael Savage is not a right winger. Goes to show how much you know about him. He is and independent conservative. Stop regurgitating bullsh*t. To you anyone with a conservative opinion is a right wing nut job.
Well, then, for future reference, what do you consider to be "right-wing"? Because, generally speaking, it's used to refer to conservatives, regardless of party affiliation.
Panama 1989
Grrr....
I'll answer Anklebiter in a few but lets get back to Middle Eastern analysis. Lets take a look at US and French military troop deployements and movements in the past few days.
...
Well, what about them?
First Savage is not a piece of s#%~. Perhaps we differ in opinion.Fine. He's a racist snake oil salesman whose career is built on stirring up xenophobic hate. You can have whatever opinion you want of that, but remember that it reflects on you.
The fact is Americans are not burning flags, ransacking Arab embassies or attacking people of Arab or Muslim background. I'm still on the side of diplomacy and mutual coexistence. It does not look like the Arab world and many of its leaders are playing this game fairly.Well, what about them?Remember how this thread ended up started because Aretas got a Michael Savage mailing list e-mail? He also apparently subscribes to Stratfor's free feeds. Stratfor is reporting that US and French aircraft were bound for an airbase in Greece, and another group of aircraft were bound for Spain, with no indication for their final destination thereafter.
HAHAHA! Yeah! Savage is awesome. I'll listen to him religiously now that you dislike him so much. I'm sure if you hate him that much he must be right.
Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!
As a matter of fact I do know about Stratfor but I got the news about the military deployements from speakng to my contacts in Greece.
You can't listen to savage anymore. he's been suing for the last 2 years to get out of his contract. He won, and is no longer on the air.
Sikh temple shootings?
You can't listen to savage anymore. he's been suing for the last 2 years to get out of his contract. He won, and is no longer on the air.
I'll keep an eye out and see where he lands.
Areatasses skill in backpedaling would get him a job in a circus.
You insulted a man who died in service to his country.
You regurgitate the vapid rantings of a right wing nut job.
You make generalizations that border on racist.
You can not see the mistakes of your own country the contributed to the radicalization of segments of the Islamic world.
You demonstrate your ignorance over and over.
Your a hateful little wee Dwarf! I like the "asses" you added to my handle, very clever. If that was me you would be crying to the moderators.
If you got beef with me on a topic go for it, quit the insults.1. I did not say anything to insult Christopher Stevens. I am insulted that security was sh*t, his concerns for his safety were not taken seriously, and still nothing has been done to avenge his murder.
2. Michael Savage is not a right winger. Goes to show how much you know about him. He is and independent conservative. Stop regurgitating bullsh*t. To you anyone with a conservative opinion is a right wing nut job.
3. Racism again? You are demonstrating ignorance for failing to see that there is no racism here.
4. Radicalization? BIG topic. Im sure we radicalized many with US presence in Holy Saudi Arabia but we left and radicals found other excuses to hate the US. Anyway, BIG topic. Start a thread.
As long as its creative I have no problem with being insulted so go ahead and do your worst.
Your definition and my definition of left and right differ considerably. In Austalia the US Democrats would be considered centre right and the Republicans right to far right. There are no major parties in the US that claim to be representative of the interests of the working (or currently non working) majority.
I am Centre left and a Fabian socialist (socialism is not a dirty word in Australia) I believe in social justice and a commonwealth as well as the rights of the individual.
You generalize about Muslims and get upset when people generalize about the US, your thin skinned hypocrisy is there for all to see.
I have never claimed that the US is the only reason for the radicalization of Islam and most of the posters here are fully aware of that the British, French, and Russians were playing "The Great Game" in the middle east well before the US was a world power.
For the last 200 years various foreign powers have been subjecting the people of the region to imperialistic, mercantialist, colonialist and neo colonialist policies. The general population has had enough. The only people offering any opposition to the current crop of meddelers and neo colonialists/mercantilists (which the US is the most prominent) are the radicals and the religious nutters. After 9/11 they are seen to have had victories over the west.
As long as the radicals forces remain asymmetrical ephemeral ideologies the west has no chance of defeating them. As the military capabilities of the terrorists will shift fade and coalesce randomly far faster then the west and the governments of the west can react.
I have no solutions to offer and I see this conflict continuing for 100 more years. Dan Carlin whose Hardcore History podcast I thoroughly reccomed says it best. The US has made the mistake of thinking that diplomacy is for wimps..... The Mongols, Vikings and other arsonists of history used it as effectively as any weapon in their arsenals.
As for you thinking that the people hating on the US is lazy and you are tired of it. The US is the biggest and most noticeable kid on the block. Being in that position attracts attention both good and bad. The US like or not, promotes it's self as the champion of the world - if you don't like being the focus, move somewhere insignificant in world affairs like Iceland or Andorra.
Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!Aretas, meet Aretas.
Well said. I live in Chicago and its been a bloody summer. We, the citizens of Crook county feel like the thugs and gang bangers have the guns while We The People are the lambs.
I hope IL allows conceal and carry ASAP.
How do you compare the articles you posted with blacks killing other blacks?
Sounds like a socialogical problem for the black community to solve. Wanna go at it again? Start a thread.
You can't listen to savage anymore. he's been suing for the last 2 years to get out of his contract. He won, and is no longer on the air.
Good point. I THOUGHT I heard something about him getting kicked off the air. How have you been following him then, Aretas- is he posting stuff online exclusively?
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Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!Aretas, meet Aretas.
Well said. I live in Chicago and its been a bloody summer. We, the citizens of Crook county feel like the thugs and gang bangers have the guns while We The People are the lambs.
I hope IL allows conceal and carry ASAP.
How do you compare the articles you posted with blacks killing other blacks?
Sounds like a socialogical problem for the black community to solve. Wanna go at it again? Start a thread.
So...black people aren't American or must solve their problems away from the eyes of other people who live in this country? That's just stupid.
I still don't understand the significance of American and French troop movements or what point Citizen Aretas was trying to make.
So...black people aren't American or must solve their problems away from the eyes of other people who live in this country? That's just stupid.Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!Aretas, meet Aretas.
Well said. I live in Chicago and its been a bloody summer. We, the citizens of Crook county feel like the thugs and gang bangers have the guns while We The People are the lambs.
I hope IL allows conceal and carry ASAP.
How do you compare the articles you posted with blacks killing other blacks?
Sounds like a socialogical problem for the black community to solve. Wanna go at it again? Start a thread.
And Aretas wonders why people point him out for comments on veiled racism? That list of postings are growing larger than his list of great things the US has done in the Middle East that Paul is waiting for.
I don't think Paul is going to hold his breath in anticipation though. :)
I must once again protest!
Every time this thread is getting good (that is, exposing the crimes of US imperialism), we have to stop and talk about Citizen Aretas!
We should just start a "Kick Citizen Aretas" thread and get it over with.
So...black people aren't American or must solve their problems away from the eyes of other people who live in this country? That's just stupid.Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!Aretas, meet Aretas.
Well said. I live in Chicago and its been a bloody summer. We, the citizens of Crook county feel like the thugs and gang bangers have the guns while We The People are the lambs.
I hope IL allows conceal and carry ASAP.
How do you compare the articles you posted with blacks killing other blacks?
Sounds like a socialogical problem for the black community to solve. Wanna go at it again? Start a thread.
Did you read the link AMIB provided? He was trying to compare the articles he linked up to the thread regarding violence in the black community. Saying that people are not safe in the US, just look at the violence in the black community. Get a clue.
I must once again protest!
Every time this thread is getting good (that is, exposing the crimes of US imperialism), we have to stop and talk about Citizen Aretas!
We should just start a "Kick Citizen Aretas" thread and get it over with.
Why don't you point your little goblin finger at A man in black?
So...black people aren't American or must solve their problems away from the eyes of other people who live in this country? That's just stupid.Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!Aretas, meet Aretas.
Well said. I live in Chicago and its been a bloody summer. We, the citizens of Crook county feel like the thugs and gang bangers have the guns while We The People are the lambs.
I hope IL allows conceal and carry ASAP.
How do you compare the articles you posted with blacks killing other blacks?
Sounds like a socialogical problem for the black community to solve. Wanna go at it again? Start a thread.
And Aretas wonders why people point him out for comments on veiled racism? That list of postings are growing larger than his list of great things the US has done in the Middle East that Paul is waiting for.
I don't think Paul is going to hold his breath in anticipation though. :)
I believe you are not paying attention to what A man in black was linking up. Look at the ther post I wrote to Freehold DM.
To Paul: You have a negative world view of the US and or US foreign policy. Thats your problem. If you wanna have a bash American foreign policy party great. I'm not sure how that ties into analysis of the current violence in the middle east, the killing of Christopher Stevens and the destruction of the Benghazi embassy.
Do you believe that America had it coming or deserved it for being the great satan?
Why don't you point your little goblin finger at A man in black?I must once again protest!
Every time this thread is getting good (that is, exposing the crimes of US imperialism), we have to stop and talk about Citizen Aretas!
We should just start a "Kick Citizen Aretas" thread and get it over with.
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the thread got stalled every couple of days to call A Man in Black names.
Did you read the link AMIB provided? He was trying to compare the articles he linked up to the thread regarding violence in the black community. Saying that people are not safe in the US, just look at the violence in the black community. Get a clue.So...black people aren't American or must solve their problems away from the eyes of other people who live in this country? That's just stupid.Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!Aretas, meet Aretas.
Well said. I live in Chicago and its been a bloody summer. We, the citizens of Crook county feel like the thugs and gang bangers have the guns while We The People are the lambs.
I hope IL allows conceal and carry ASAP.
How do you compare the articles you posted with blacks killing other blacks?
Sounds like a socialogical problem for the black community to solve. Wanna go at it again? Start a thread.
Get a clue? YOU were the one who said "EVERY American, whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!"
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If you wish to point out hypocrisy, please start another thread.
Get a clue? YOU were the one who said "EVERY American, whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!"Did you read the link AMIB provided? He was trying to compare the articles he linked up to the thread regarding violence in the black community. Saying that people are not safe in the US, just look at the violence in the black community. Get a clue.So...black people aren't American or must solve their problems away from the eyes of other people who live in this country? That's just stupid.Those articles are a joke. Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period!Aretas, meet Aretas.
Well said. I live in Chicago and its been a bloody summer. We, the citizens of Crook county feel like the thugs and gang bangers have the guns while We The People are the lambs.
I hope IL allows conceal and carry ASAP.
How do you compare the articles you posted with blacks killing other blacks?
Sounds like a socialogical problem for the black community to solve. Wanna go at it again? Start a thread.
Yeah everyone enjoys a safe existence in the US. Implying that we have ethnic / religious strife from what man in black linked up is clueless.
How you twist that into "black people aren't American..." I have no idea. You can't be serious, your just trying to get my goat.
"Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period! "
- Aretas
If I needed any final proof that Aretas was just trolling, well, that was it.
I don't think there is really a place on Earth where every person enjoys a "safe" existence. Anyone who has even a basic understanding of current events, history, and especially US history knows that religion, race, and class have caused violence and injustice with no end in sight.
As much as I'd like to enjoy a good laugh if Aretas ever lists the "good" things the US has done in the middle east, I think I'll be putting Aretas threads in the ignore category from now on.
EDIT:
I should also take a moment to say Kudos to the Paizo community for turning what by all measures should have been a total trainwreck of a thread into what was at many times a very insightful and informative discussion of history and politics. I want to say thanks to those who kept the information coming against all odds, and the moderators who keep it on track.
Oh, don't do that! Citizen Aretas threads are the best!
You just have to learn to ignore Citizen Aretas.
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To Paul: You have a negative world view of the US and or US foreign policy. Thats your problem. If you wanna have a bash American foreign policy party great. I'm not sure how that ties into analysis of the current violence in the middle east, the killing of Christopher Stevens and the destruction of the Benghazi embassy.
Do you believe that America had it coming or deserved it for being the great satan?
I think this is worth highlighting. Aretas is aware that people have negative opinions about the US and its foreign policy, but the sole explanation he offers for this is some defect in the people. He rules out, a priori, that it's even possible to have a legitimate gripe against the US.
Then he tells us that this has nothing to do with anti-American violence in the US. Because it's not like anti-American violence might somehow arise from having a negative opinion of the US. I guess Middle Easterners are just a savage horde to him, like a force of nature. Or orcs.
It's like he picked up Said's Orientalism and used it as a training manual. But that's probably too highbrow. I'll guess he's getting this from Andrew Macdonald.
It's like he picked up Said's Orientalism and used it as a training manual. But that's probably too highbrow. I'll guess he's getting this from Andrew Macdonald.
Aretas, like too many on these boards, is a Goalpost Atheist.
Free market Goalposting:
The invisible hand moved them, not me.
I'm not sure how that ties into analysis of the current violence in the middle east, the killing of Christopher Stevens and the destruction of the Benghazi embassy.
Yeah, let's get back on topic.
To Paul: You have a negative world view of the US and or US foreign policy. Thats your problem. If you wanna have a bash American foreign policy party great. I'm not sure how that ties into analysis of the current violence in the middle east, the killing of Christopher Stevens and the destruction of the Benghazi embassy.
Do you believe that America had it coming or deserved it for being the great satan?I think this is worth highlighting. Aretas is aware that people have negative opinions about the US and its foreign policy, but the sole explanation he offers for this is some defect in the people. He rules out, a priori, that it's even possible to have a legitimate gripe against the US.
Then he tells us that this has nothing to do with anti-American violence in the US. Because it's not like anti-American violence might somehow arise from having a negative opinion of the US. I guess Middle Easterners are just a savage horde to him, like a force of nature. Or orcs.
It's like he picked up Said's Orientalism and used it as a training manual. But that's probably too highbrow. I'll guess he's getting this from Andrew Macdonald.
I think everything you just said is wrong.
"Every American whether citizen or illegal enjoys a safe existence in the USA. Period! "
- AretasIf I needed any final proof that Aretas was just trolling, well, that was it.
I don't think there is really a place on Earth where every person enjoys a "safe" existence. Anyone who has even a basic understanding of current events, history, and especially US history knows that religion, race, and class have caused violence and injustice with no end in sight.
As much as I'd like to enjoy a good laugh if Aretas ever lists the "good" things the US has done in the middle east, I think I'll be putting Aretas threads in the ignore category from now on.
EDIT:
I should also take a moment to say Kudos to the Paizo community for turning what by all measures should have been a total trainwreck of a thread into what was at many times a very insightful and informative discussion of history and politics. I want to say thanks to those who kept the information coming against all odds, and the moderators who keep it on track.
You dont want to understand that that quote you are so proud of posting is in response to a man in black linking terrible incidents in the US. He then associates those incidents as an indicator on how the US is unwelcoming and violent to its arab or muslim citizens.
I'm glad I wont be hearing from you again since you have nothing to contribute aside from "Aaaaaameeericaaaaaa.....baaaaaad"
I have no solutions to offer and I see this conflict continuing for 100 more years. Dan Carlin whose Hardcore History podcast I thoroughly reccomed says it best. The US has made the mistake of thinking that diplomacy is for wimps..... The Mongols, Vikings and other arsonists of history used it as effectively as any weapon in their arsenals.The Vikings negotiated trade with Byzantium. And as a result of the process, founded Russia mostly by accident.
I did not know that. I would have thought they would have contacted them by way of the Baltic region.
I think everything you just said is wrong.
Then give us a convincing explanation for your complete refusal to see relevance in inquiry into just how the US got so hated.
Or let the obvious inferences stand unchallenged. It's all the same to me.
The Vikings raided Constantinople and Samarkand using the river systems dragging their flat bottomed longships from river to river. The Vikings could get from Oslo to the Caspian Sea with ease. They were called the Rus by the Finns and hence the name Russia.
I think everything you just said is wrong.Then give us a convincing explanation for your complete refusal to see relevance in inquiry into just how the US got so hated.
Or let the obvious inferences stand unchallenged. It's all the same to me.
Its all the same to you? You see I do believe that the US has done some bad and good in the middle east and elsewhere around the world. Just take a look at how bad Americans have suffered during the past 4 yrs under Pres. Obama! ;)
We enjoy the position of Monday morning quarterback if you can understand my analogy. Considering that you and so many other here refuse to believe that the US has done ANY good is unfathonable. You and many here on the boards are just waiting with panting breaths to see what I would say only to lunge at an imaginary effigy of Uncle Sam and smash him around.
You see when you engage someone else in a discussion there is a concept known as "good faith" and you are severly decifient of it.