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make it epic with making them think they made the choice.
DMing is about giving the illusion of choice. To setup things and have the players think the path and choices they make were there own. You need to know your players and their characters well enough to put them in siutations where they choose to die.
I have a similar situation in my gaming group. While I haven't actually killed any players yet, I've increased the sense of danger while still having the players have a way of surviving by using the hero point system as a buffer between them and death. By letting the players have hero points, I can get rid of the 'kid gloves' so to speak. If they're about to die I can tell them to use hero point save themselves. This way, if a player does die, it is probably because he's been reckless and hasn't been saving 1 or 2 points to save himself with.... thus allowing you to place the blame on him ;)
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That is just a playstyle issue. Some people also game more for the social experience than to play the game so making a new character is a hassle in their eyes.
I am never happy when PC dies, if I am the GM. I want them to do well, but I don't hand out victories in any form, whether it is combat or a social based challenge. As a player I also hate seeing my character die, but I don't view my character as the hero upon creation. I see him as a potential hero, and until the campaign is complete he has not achieved hero status. It seems that your group wants to say the character is destined to succeed similar to characters in movies and novels.
I think you have to ask them why they hate the idea so much. With that said I don't look at it as me killing a character when I GM. The player got the character killed. I just did not do anything to stop it.
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Yes.
I do it fairly regularly, but I run four games a fortnight, and each has 6-7 player characters in them so a chance of up to 28 different characters deaths in any given fortnight.
With no risk of death, there is no penalty for doing something stupid.
The base concept of you killing the characters is rubbish (it feels that way, but it is false) the player controlling the character puts it into that situation in the first place and they have to accept it is their fault the character died.
Dice can be cruel, GM's can be cruel... but unless the player is in the game with their character, it can't be killed.
(off screen deaths while amusing are not the topic here)
As a player I hate loosing my character, but sometimes they are making the sacrifice that saves the party, I like to play the hero, so character death is always over my head. I plan for failure in all my games and build contigency plans to cover most situation, be that technology, magic or just teamwork.
The worst feeling is when the description of a creature or encounter is what gets you killed because the GM thought something was obvious and had it out for your character in the first place having played in one of your campaigns...
You as the GM are the story teller, the keeper of the environment and the world, and the emotions and attachments that are connected with it.
So a character dies, make it epic, make the fallout something to be remembered, give the character dying some final words, one standard action, something to go out with a bang...
Then have it mean something to the opponents, i.e. a morale bonus... taunt the remaining PC's... that sort of thing.
Also have the characters work out a will for what happens to their characters stuff and share when they die. Some family member somewhere, and ratified with the churches so that it is enforceable upon death.
Then when they are resurrected in games with that magic, all their worldly goods are deeded to their next of kin.
(Depending on how many games someone has played with me, pooling money for resurrection if possible from their share is added after the first death)
Games where life after death should not fear death, only total party kills... no one left to bring you back.
Though also in my games, those brought back from the dead are always changed in some manner... but that's just my worlds ;)
In the games where death is not allowed.... well loss of limb, crippling , disfigurement, cursed, blinded, polymorphed, stupified... well they are always an option and stick to the no deaths rule, but are far more horrifying to deal with as they still have their character, but not quite as it was...
And yet players still come back to my games, sign up for as long as I am running them and even have stand in players for when a ongoing player can't make the game so I must be doing something right ;)
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I tend to take the Yoshiyuki Tomino and perform character genocides.
By that I mean, I like to build my world through complex and interesting NPCs, typically having a sheet for dozens of them at a time. It's through this extensive cast of characters and how they interact with my PCs that they define the world around them.
So when I feel it's time time when things are meant to be most challenging, typically when events reach a climax, these characters they've traveled with and fought alongside begin dropping like flies. When that happens they get the sense that things are at their most dangerous, and if they die in those moments... they don't seem to mind as much.
I think it comes down to players hate dying pointlessly, it's boring and detracts from the appeal of the character they played retroactively. So I try to give thier death meaning, even if it's just to show how pointless their conflict/motivation for fighing was they don't mind it. Maybe it's that they realize going into a scenario that, given the circumstances, they could die pretty easily so maybe that helps make potential death easier to accept or colors their actions.
Now of course this doesn't work with everyone, I have one player who whines and gets destitute whenever he thinks he's in a situation he can't get out of... Which is really annoying at this point. So with him I've played softball a little, but I think I'm going to finally kill him in my upcomming arc so... We'll see how that goes.
Of course above all, we see where the die lands.
I was playing a level 6 druid, and the party was going through a 5' wide corridor of a run down keep that was overrun by moss and rats, with mushrooms growing in the cracks on the stone.
The GM asked for perception checks because unbeknownst to the party, a level 7 fey rogue was tailing us in preparation to ambush. Everyone got between 18-24, which wasn't enough to see the NPC. The GM hears the perception checks, says we don't notice anything, asks for initiative, and then the ASSASSIN VINE on the wall right next to us gets a surprise round. And attacks ME, the druid. DC 24 perception check wouldn't notice the plant on the wall that wasn't included as part of the description in a room, considering plants don't get stealth checks?? Even worse, the DRUID wasn't given an opportunity to identify the plant? So my druid got grappled in the surprise round (and took constrict damage), and took more constrict damage in the first "real" round. Then the fey rogue went and I took 3 SA's that same round and died before my initative order of 9 ever came up.
Deaths like THAT are what piss players off. Deaths that happen because you run the encounters as they are written in the adventure or because you run the monsters and use all of their powers, are usually not a big deal. The characters usually have a way to retreat, or at the very least withdrawal and regroup/heal/buff for a round or two if they want to.
I think the point you should make to your players is that if characters can never die, they never get to enjoy the full experience of the game. It means the GM usually has to negate critical hits behind the screen if the targeted character is below 14 hitpoints and the monster is CR 10 or higher. It means NPCs can NEVER cast level 3 or higher AOE damage spells if anyone in the group is below 20 hitpoints. Well I guess these things can happen, just the critical hit from an Iron Golem would do (/dice roll) "Oh wow, 9 damage, man you got lucky!!"
It also means the players never need to buy Cure potions, have access to healing, use healing, or even have feats, class abilities, or magical items. If the accepted mentality is "characters don't die in our games" then a single level 2 PC commoner will defeat any encounter he could ever possibly face. Or, at the very least, he will be assured to stabilize, naturally heal, and survive to tell his friends about all those times he fought a Balor and lived, and the time a colossal dragon breathed on him after he shot arrows at it, and how the elder fire elemental on his basketball team always high-fives him at half time.....
I find the element of danger really exciting and the idea that we are playing with kid gloves is a little disappointing. I really would like to see someone die but I don't want to be the dick that kills the character that you have lovingly crafted over the past few months.
So my question. Have you ever killed off a character/been killed off and been happy about it?
I like Finlander's idea up there. Make it FEEL important. THAT said... Killing characters is tricky business. I'm 99.9% time a player, so here's MY feeling on it.
There are ways to make a game exciting and epic... WITHOUT killing the main characters. Give them goals... and reprecrusions if those goals are not met. I.E. you have 24 hours or the princess dies/god awakens/world destroys... LEt them know you'll keep the game going REGARDLESS of what happens!!!
THAT gets exciting.
Character death is NOT exciting. the THREAT of death is... but the REALITy is not. If a character escapes near certain death... he is heroic. If he does NOT... he's dead.
At which point you have two NEW choices to make.
1) Allow for ressurections. This keeps the story going, but really... if you allow ressurections... where's that danger you were looking for? Death becomes tedious and annoying... but hardly 'fatal'. We JUST finished Serpent Skull... I had a character die THREE times in that campaign... I was GONNA just leave him dead by that last time... because it just felt cheap and lame... but we were in book 6 and I diddn't feel like bringing a new character in for the last few weeks.
2) Bring in new characters. This keeps the threat alive... but has it's downside too. At OUR tables... our characters actually MEAN something. We have detailed histories, hours upon hours upon days making these characters, and their loss too early just feels like wasted time.
Then you have to introduce the new guy... fill him in on everything that's gone on before... hope he blends into your 'quest' like the old guy did and so on... This has potential 'occasionally'
Now... I'm ALSO playing in a 2E game right now... we have on average 5 players in it... we have had 14 characters in our group. Some players on their FOURTH character, and we only have ONE original guy left... THIS groups 'purpose' for sticking with the same quest that's passed down three characters is VERY thin... It's been a BLOODBATH and it's bordering on the ridiculous just keeping the story going.
As a DM, you have to try to balance whats 'good for the story' vs, 'what's exciting'.
Myself... I get more upset when ANOTHER character in the group is 'killed' off then I do if it's my own... For me, as long as the deaths are heroic and meaningful, then they went out fine. Stepping on a trap and just having the DM cackle... wouldn't be fun.
Danger can be exciting... how MUCH do you crave? If nobody has died in 4... 5... 10 games are you getting bored? I like Lord of the Rings... Boromir died a great death... Everyone else fought impossible odds and walked away victoriously! :)
I get beat down enough in the real world... on Game night "I" get to kick some butt!!!
You build your character the best you can. You make the best decisions you can, with the information you have. You play your character to the best of your ability.
Then you roll the dice...
To 4thecause: Be fair. Don't play against your players. Don't railroad your players. Don't 'fiat' the encounter. Be fair.
PC's die. We all hate it. But, in the end, the risk the reward.
We die relatively often (sometimes everyone, sometimes just one character). Ultimately, it's about what people want out of the game - i dont think theres a right or wrong way to do it, if everyone is aware of how things are.
If you're the only player in the group who wants a very real risk of PC death, then you're going to struggle, in my opinion. I suggest raising the issue explicitly outside of the game time - maybe run a mini-campaign where everyone knows, going in, that the lethality is more than your group is used to. Maybe you'll win some converts to a style where risk of death is ever present. I wouldn't try and "work the concept in" without forewarning - no matter how well justified/cool/verisimilutidinous(!) the death scene was.
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When I GM, I don't want to kill players. I just want to take them right to the edge. My ideal game ends with the PCs coming out victorious after a hard slog, some of them bleeding out and only a few conscious with barely any hit points.
The problem is that if I want that to happen, sometimes I'll roll a crit at the wrong time.
Character death is also okay if the player really gets into the moment and understands the odds he is against. I DM'ed a 3.5 encounter once where the party made made an elaborate plan to sneakily attack a heavily entrenched battlement at night. The sneaky part was shot to hell when the party Cleric thought he could stealthily cast a Searing Light spell in the middle of the night at a 40' high wall patrolled by nine sentries.
After the melee ensued and the battle was coming to a climax, the arcane-casting ghost "finally" bothered to see why his minions were getting slaughtered. He unleashed Cone of Cold on everyone underneath him from 60' in the air on his first turn, at which point half the party scattered because they were out of healing, low on health, and already dragging an unconscious player to safety. The party Sorcerer and Ranger independently chose to cover the rest of the party's escape, and the Sorcerer flew up to use his short-ranged spells on the Ghost.
For 6 intense rounds magical energy sizzled back and forth in the night sky while everyone at the table was glued to this player's die rolls. Eventually the Sorcerer ran low on health and ate a 12d6 Cone of Cold, and after unleashing a few curse words the player said it was the best D&D combat he's ever had.