I just made myself one, and I think he'll do just fine. He's not OPTIMIZED by any stretch... But he has decent strength, good Charisma (for smiting) and miserable dex.
I recommend getting Improved Shield bash... just so you don't lose the AC bonus when/if you bash... otherwise dropping the shield and switching to 2 hands on the longsword for a little extra oomph.
I determinied long ago, that I wasn't going to bother with a high Dex on Thaddeus. He's going heavy armor anywya... so that's a wasted build
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Sword and board works just fine. the differnce between a d8 and 2d6 starts to lesson as you bonus damage starts to add up.
No you are not optimized for combat and the DPS'ers generally say it shouldn't be done but go with your image of your character and have fun.
My S&B Paladin is a great lot of fun and he actually has a couple of "gasp" non-combat feats.. "WHAT??!?!? you say?"
Not all of Pathfinder has to be combat. Create a character that you enjoy and optimization be damned.
Fighting with a 2 handed weapon and destroying enemies is fun, but I would get bored playing every warrior-type the same. If optimization is something you want, then optimize defense.
The key thing about paladins is their self "Laying on Hands." It states that you need a hand free to use it as a swift action.
Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.
Make sure your GM allows you to use a shield and "Lay on Hands" to yourself. If not, it complicates your action economy and makes swiftly healing yourself not automatic. Bows and two-handed weapons are easier to get one hand free as a free action.
cheers
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What about a heavy shield and cestus paladin? You get the big shield to protect yourself and your allies, and you get to look remarkably peaceful, what with not holding a sword.
As an added bonus, on single attacks you can grip the shield in two hands for 1.5x strength, and you take minimum penalties when attacking with both weapons (your shield being main hand and your cestus being off-hand).
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Going the two-weapon + shield bash route is something for fighters and all their feats. You can do well enough with basic TWF and imp. shield bash though. And you can use a heavy shield if you want, you're just trading -2 on all attacks for +1 AC. As stated, you run into an issue using your LoH without a free hand. Maybe a weapon cord on your longsword and/or a quickdraw shield (both from APG) will solve that.
The sad truth of the story is that longsword and heavy shield just isn't very good in pathfinder. More viable combos are:
longsword and buckler: you can 1-hand for the AC or 2-hand for damage, lets you use LoH
dual-wield light shields: it's silly (and eventually it uses heavy shields), but it works very well, even if you're locked from LoH in combat
2-handing a heavy shield: AKA Captain America, surprisingly good, LoH is available
whip and tower shield: requires some finagling to get proficiencies, and the goal becomes control not damage, and you lock out LoH again
Of course, if you want to use a longsword and heavy shield, go for it. It's not optimal, but you have to play what you enjoy. Playing an optimal character you don't like is never fun.
imp. = improved
LoH = lay on hands
APG = advanced player's guide
AKA = also known as
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Going the two-weapon + shield bash route is something for fighters and all their feats.
I'm inclined to disagree here. There are many ways to pull it off, and all of them let you get the necessary feats at the right times.
1 Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack
2
3 Two-Weapon Fighting
4 Dex +1
5 Double Slice
6
7 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8 Str +1
9 Shield Slam
10
11 Shield Master
12 Str +1
1 Improved Shield Bash
2
3 Two-Weapon Fighting
4 Con +1
5 Power Attack
6
7 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8 Str +1
9 Shield Slam
10
11 Shield Master
12 Str +1
1 Improved Shield Bash
2
3 Two-Weapon Fighting
4 Str +1
5 Power Attack
6
7 Shield Slam
8 Dex +1
9 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10
11 Shield Master
12 Con +1
Tight, but possible even without the extra feat from being human.
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Doesn't ITWF require a Dex of 17?Going the two-weapon + shield bash route is something for fighters and all their feats.I'm inclined to disagree here. There are many ways to pull it off, and all of them let you get the necessary feats at the right times.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
It does, but an item will fix that if need be.
@mergy: good show! I retract my "infeasibility" comment. Like you said though, it is rather tight; you will be absolutely dedicated to that build. Trying to remember what my two-shield fighter spent all those feats on now...|
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But who says you need a sword?Well, the longsword is part of the concept. It's my favorite classic fantasy archetype. You can find dozens of minis and images on the web with warriors with a longsword and heavy shield, so I don't think I am alone in it appealing to me.
And most 4E paladins employ a heavy shield, so its not like this is an impossible thing to incorporate into a system.
If you can manage to convince your GM to let you use LoH with a shield strapped to your arm, then there's nothing wrong with this setup. Rank up intimidate if you can use it to "taunt" enemies into focusing on you. Most of this build's issue is that it's trying to be a tank in a system with no "aggro" mechanic aside from who deals the most damage and who's easiest to kill, of which you are neither. With all the threat mechanics in 4E, it is definitely the better system for such a build. Not all systems have the same iconics.
New question: why a paladin? if all you want is a longsword and heavy shield warrior, a fighter will do just as well, without the pesky need for a free hand. Of course you are free to insist on a paladin. At one point I wanted to make an inquisitor who used a pistol in one hand and a sword in the other (a la Warhammer). Turns out this doesn't work. What did work was a gunslinger 5/ fighter 15 using the same weapon setup. I honestly didn't feel like I missed much not being an inquisitor.
The swords of my old sword-and-board minis usually broke off. Thanks to Pathfinder, I can finally recycle them for "optimal" builds. Too bad the paint jobs and detail work are two decades old, too.
Most spellcasting classes like a cleric requires a free hand to avoid juggling the shield and weapon. If you want the sword-and-board and LGness of the paladin, how about another non-spellcasting class besides fighter, like cavalier? You get the paladin-like mount. You get to pick an Order which is similar to a paladin code. Check it out.
I had another counter-intuitive idea for a sword-and-board "paladin."
Check out Ranger; believe it or not! Their combat style feats can take "sword and shield" style without the necessary prereqs to enable the shield bashing. Instead of lay on hands, smite and detect evil, you get Favored Enemy which can be flavored against undead or evil outsiders. You get an animal companion instead of the paladin mount, but you can pick a horse. If you take Boon Companion feat at 5th, the ranger companion will be as tough as the paladin mount... and more versatile in case you don't want a horse, e.g. with Boon Companion you can take a Roc at 7th level as a flying mount! You can dip a fighter level to get Heavy Armor Proficiency and if you want a mounted "paladin" pick the dragoon archetype to get Mounted Combat and Skill Focus (Riding) for one level dip. The Ranger spells are good and can be done out of combat to avoid the free hand issue during combat. If you don't think the Favored Terrain fits your "paladin" trade it away with the Infiltrator archetype for some goodies. Plus, you get Endurance at Ranger 3 to sleep in your heavy armor like all good knights.
Just don't call yourself a ranger!
cheers
@Ruiken and Liegence
That "Captain America" style build sounds pretty darn interesting. Any chase of posting a build or pointing me in the right direction?
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Human Paladin, Oath of Vengance
(20 pt. buy)
str:18 (+ increases)
dex:10
con:14
int:7
wis:9
cha:16
H: improved shield bash
1: power attack
These are the only important ones, the rest are personal preference. You could pick up the shield master feat chain for shield slam/master, but you will waste alot of feats. If your GM allows it, you can off hand with armor spikes while you 2-hand the shield. In this case the shield master feat chain is amazing, since you will actually use your off-hand attacks. You will also need to get you dex alot higher somehow.
+x heavy shield (and a spare mundane one for being sundered)
+x [+special properties, possibly defending] shield spikes
+x full plate (with armor spikes if allowed to dual wield with 2-hand shield)
belt of +6 str and con
headband of +6 cha
amulet of natural armor +x
ring of protection +x
cloak of resistance +x
dusty rose ioun stone
Sorry it's not a complete build, but it should be enough to get you going.
@Riuken
Cool, thanks! Feats are where I was scratching my chin a little after taking improved shield bash and PA.
It's a cool flavor choice. I also like Mergy's idea of using a cestus.
@Jubal
I actually meant a 2hand shield paladin specifically, but that thread has some pretty interesting ideas.
If you are willing to multiclass, a Fighter 2/Paladin 18 can make for a good sword-and-board build. Those 2 extra feats is all you really need to complete your build earlier, especially if you're using a human character.