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Does the Amulet of Mighty Fists bypass DR based on its enhancement bonus?


Rules Questions

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I am posting this in a new thread so that maybe, once and for all, we might actually receive an offical answer.

The question is a simple one: does an amulet of mighty fists allow unarmed strikes and natural weapons to bypass damage reduction based on its enhancement bonus? Weapons do so, for example +3 heavy mace will bypass cold iron and silver DR, a +4 kukri will bypass those two material DRs and DR based on adamantine (but does not bypass hardness like an actual adamantine weapon), and a +5 greatsword bypasses all alignment and material based DR.

But does an amulet of mighty fists? I think it should, partially to justify the high price tag, but it isn't a magic weapon. It is a wondrous item. The only answer we have had on this question (official answer from a member of the Paizo staff) was from James Jacobs.

Here is the link:

Ask James Jacobs ALL your Questions Here

And here was his answer.

James Jacobs wrote:

I hate the rule that enhancement bonuses eventually bypass DR. Hate it.

So I'm gonna say that the amulet of mighty fists does NOT help you. Monks have other ways of getting through DR in any case.

Now, some people say this is only JJs opinion, and not an official answer. That is why I am reposting this question and asking all that want an answer to click the FAQ button on the upper right hand of the post. Perhaps if enough of us do, we can finally receive an official answer to this.

Note, that there are reasons why it would not: I mean, a dragon or a hydra with an amulet of the mighty fists +4 can bypass cold iron, silver, and adamantine DR without any problems on every attack which they can make. So, if it does, say goodbye to those stoneskin spells; they don't protect you from this creature. I am certainly there are those who can come up with plenty of other examples; of course, I think that the AoMF should bypass DR, but if it is ruled to, it will affect far more than just monks.

Animal companions, critters of all sorts, eidolons, feral mutagen alchemists, unarmed fighters, certain types of barbarians and rangers, wildshaped druids . . . all of these could bypass DR with their natural weapons and unarmed attacks. So the question really does need to be answered. And I am asking for your help in trying to make the staff realize it NEEDS answering.

Thank you,

Master Arminas


master arminas wrote:

I am posting this in a new thread so that maybe, once and for all, we might actually receive an offical answer.

The question is a simple one: does an amulet of mighty fists allow unarmed strikes and natural weapons to bypass damage reduction based on its enhancement bonus? Weapons do so, for example +3 heavy mace will bypass cold iron and silver DR, a +4 kukri will bypass those two material DRs and DR based on adamantine (but does not bypass hardness like an actual adamantine weapon), and a +5 greatsword bypasses all alignment and material based DR.

But does an amulet of mighty fists? I think it should, partially to justify the high price tag, but it isn't a magic weapon. It is a wondrous item. The only answer we have had on this question (official answer from a member of the Paizo staff) was from James Jacobs.

Here is the link:

Ask James Jacobs ALL your Questions Here

And here was his answer.

James Jacobs wrote:

I hate the rule that enhancement bonuses eventually bypass DR. Hate it.

So I'm gonna say that the amulet of mighty fists does NOT help you. Monks have other ways of getting through DR in any case.

Now, some people say this is only JJs opinion, and not an official answer. That is why I am reposting this question and asking all that want an answer to click the FAQ button on the upper right hand of the post. Perhaps if enough of us do, we can finally receive an official answer to this.

Master Arminas

I did press the FAQ button, but I think when the monk is "fixed" this will be answered also. With all of the times this has been FAQ'd I am sure they know about. Not taking care of "all" of the issues or at least answering the questions involved would be a bad idea. :)


We can only hope, Wraithstrike. We can only hope.

MA


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think we should be patient, MA. I know you want an answer, but let's give the devs time.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Wow...he doesn't like how the rules work, so...monks shouldn't benefit from them while everyone else does.

Wow. If he'd said, "no one should get to ignore DR for having a high enhancement bonus," it'd be one thing. That was just callous.

Silver Crusade

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

James' rules answers are "how I would do that", and not "that's the official RAI".

The whole trend of people bludgeoning others to death with JJ's answers, or taking his personal ideas as official errata is getting quite tiring.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Yeah I would have to allow it they just get soo expensive. I mean for anything or person using unarmed strikes or natural attacks, DR can shut you down, if you manage to scrape together 45,000 and put it all in enhancement bonus why shouldn't it get past cold iron, or 80,000 for getting through adamantine. It is really expensive and actually makes enhancement bonus worth getting in my mind, as opposed to having holy fists, or say for the price of the 45000 one instead get nine different ones of bane for various situations.


uck. just seeing the title of the thread made my skin crawl.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
master arminas wrote:

We can only hope, Wraithstrike. We can only hope.

MA

Have you lit the scented candles and reserved your Shaolin pilgrimage yet? :)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

17 people marked this as a favorite.
StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Wow...he doesn't like how the rules work, so...monks shouldn't benefit from them while everyone else does.

Wow. If he'd said, "no one should get to ignore DR for having a high enhancement bonus," it'd be one thing. That was just callous.

Calm down. I'm not on the design team, and I'm not the one responsible for the rulebook errata and all that.

Show me a GM who loves every single rule in any RPG, and I'll show you a liar. I quite love the Pathfinder game, but there's a couple of things that I don't like about the rules and, yes, use house rules for. One of those is the one I mentioned in the other thread about more powerful plusses standing in for specific weapon qualities.

Saying "no one should get to ignore DR for having a high enhancement bonus" isn't callous. It's one GM's opinion.

Furthermore, the "Ask James" thread is, you will note, in the Off-Topic portion of these boards. It's not really all that appropriate to mine that thread for fuel for rules crusades. If you have a problem with how the monk is designed or plays in the game... I get it. And I'm one of many here at Paizo who periodically reminds (some might say "hounds") the design team that it's a hot-button topic on the forums these days, and that it should be resolved sometime. It's not something that the team wants to just slap a band-aid on. Putting up a "fix" that hasn't been well thought-through would be far worse than delaying that fix until it's as right as we can make it.

For what it's worth... I've been hitting FAQ buttons for this topic too.


James Jacobs wrote:
For what it's worth... I've been hitting FAQ buttons for this topic too.

Yours count as like +20 FAQs right? I mean, you could always go shopping at Think Geek to pull all kinds of pranks on the Design Team for ignoring you :P


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Fans, upon receiving the final adventure of Shattered Star: "Why is the big bad evil guy named Baison Cruelman?"

Paizo Employee Creative Director

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Tels wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
For what it's worth... I've been hitting FAQ buttons for this topic too.
Yours count as like +20 FAQs right? I mean, you could always go shopping at Think Geek to pull all kinds of pranks on the Design Team for ignoring you :P

I'm not sure if an employee's FAQ counts for anything more than anything else. It's certainly not my only tool to try to spur the design team into solving the problem.

Turns out, though, the design team has a lot more on their plate than monks. And as such, some patience would be appreciated.


Oh I'm patient enough as it is, I'm perfectly willing to change the system to 'fix problems' in the game if I want to. I'm not too worried about what the Design Team is working on, I think you're all phenomenal designers and gamers and anything you guys can come up with will hopefully satisfy many people. If not, well, I'm not bound by the rules.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Tels wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
For what it's worth... I've been hitting FAQ buttons for this topic too.
Yours count as like +20 FAQs right? I mean, you could always go shopping at Think Geek to pull all kinds of pranks on the Design Team for ignoring you :P
I'm not sure if an employee's FAQ counts for anything more than anything else. It's certainly not my only tool to try to spur the design team into solving the problem.

...now I know I have a sick mind, with the images that just sprang into it.

James Jacobs wrote:
Turns out, though, the design team has a lot more on their plate than monks. And as such, some patience would be appreciated.

Aye, patience is a virtue we should all cultivate - you guys have production deadlines to fit in. Maybe you should employ some customer-service devs to deal with these issues? If you need suggestions my rates are very reasonable...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've said it before, and I said it again.

Cosmo should be vested with the ability to make rule calls.


wraithstrike wrote:
I think when the monk is "fixed" this will be answered also.

You mean "if"...

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I dunno, is it really fair to give monks a weapon that can bypass DR? I mean, they already can't be disarmed. It would probably be overpowered.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mergy wrote:
I dunno, is it really fair to give monks a weapon that can bypass DR? I mean, they already can't be disarmed. It would probably be overpowered.

I am wondering whether you are being sarcastic. I actually can't tell.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber

People keep saying the "monk fix" when really, from what I've seen Paizo posting is them saying "flurry needs to be fixed." That is a huge difference.

EDIT: Paizo stated a long time ago the Fighter is supposed to be the fighting class. If the monk is meant to be a support fighting class by design, it shouldn't be BETTER than the fighter which most of the complaints are based on. The people complaining want something for the class that isn't meant by the game designers.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Skylancer4 wrote:
People keep saying the "monk fix" when really, from what I've seen Paizo posting is them saying "flurry needs to be fixed." That is a huge difference.

No, they have (well SKR and JB) actually said in one of the flurry-of-threads that the monk as a whole needs addressing.

Mergy wrote:
I dunno, is it really fair to give monks a weapon that can bypass DR? I mean, they already can't be disarmed. It would probably be overpowered.

Paladin's smite bypasses DR, and a magus with a magic weapon can enhance it to +5 way before it becomes affordable, which also bypasses almost all DR, so it is not without precedent and these classes aren't broken. In fact as the monk has a generally lower damage output than these classes, I do not see how it could be.

The monk's unarmed strike has a few advantages, it's true, but disarming can be undone by a locking gauntlet on a typical weapon as well, so that's hardly a major advantage.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:
Mergy wrote:
I dunno, is it really fair to give monks a weapon that can bypass DR? I mean, they already can't be disarmed. It would probably be overpowered.

Paladin's smite bypasses DR, and a magus with a magic weapon can enhance it to +5 way before it becomes affordable, which also bypasses almost all DR, so it is not without precedent and these classes aren't broken. In fact as the monk has a generally lower damage output than these classes, I do not see how it could be.

The monk's unarmed strike has a few advantages, it's true, but disarming can be undone by a locking gauntlet on a typical weapon as well, so that's hardly a major advantage.

Tongue in cheek just doesn't come across on the internet, does it?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber

"As a whole" being addressed doesn't mean "monk is going to be the best unarmed fighter" which is quite honestly what the majority of people complaining want.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
master arminas wrote:

I am posting this in a new thread so that maybe, once and for all, we might actually receive an offical answer.

The question is a simple one: does an amulet of mighty fists allow unarmed strikes and natural weapons to bypass damage reduction based on its enhancement bonus? Weapons do so, for example +3 heavy mace will bypass cold iron and silver DR, a +4 kukri will bypass those two material DRs and DR based on adamantine (but does not bypass hardness like an actual adamantine weapon), and a +5 greatsword bypasses all alignment and material based DR.

But does an amulet of mighty fists? I think it should, partially to justify the high price tag, but it isn't a magic weapon. It is a wondrous item. The only answer we have had on this question (official answer from a member of the Paizo staff) was from James Jacobs.

Here is the link:

Ask James Jacobs ALL your Questions Here

And here was his answer.

James Jacobs wrote:

I hate the rule that enhancement bonuses eventually bypass DR. Hate it.

So I'm gonna say that the amulet of mighty fists does NOT help you. Monks have other ways of getting through DR in any case.

Now, some people say this is only JJs opinion, and not an official answer. That is why I am reposting this question and asking all that want an answer to click the FAQ button on the upper right hand of the post. Perhaps if enough of us do, we can finally receive an official answer to this.

Note, that there are reasons why it would not: I mean, a dragon or a hydra with an amulet of the mighty fists +4 can bypass cold iron, silver, and adamantine DR without any problems on every attack which they can make. So, if it does, say goodbye to those stoneskin spells; they don't protect you from this creature. I am certainly there are those who can come up with plenty of other examples; of course, I think that the AoMF should bypass DR, but...

I would say of course it does. the AMF gives your natural attacks an enhancement bonus, making them magic weapons with a +3 etc bonus. If it didn't work that way, then neither does "magic fang", "magic weapon", or "greater magic weapon" for that matter.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chernobyl wrote:
I would say of course it does. the AMF gives your natural attacks an enhancement bonus, making them magic weapons with a +3 etc bonus. If it didn't work that way, then neither does "magic fang", "magic weapon", or "greater magic weapon" for that matter.

That's just the point, they don't work that way. If you check the text they specifically say they only bypass DR/magic.


This rule of enhancement bonuses bypassing material-based DR is new to me, where did it pop out from? Ultimate Equipment?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Astral Wanderer wrote:
This rule of enhancement bonuses bypassing material-based DR is new to me, where did it pop out from? Ultimate Equipment?

Core rulebook, under damage reduction, page 562.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Astral Wanderer wrote:
This rule of enhancement bonuses bypassing material-based DR is new to me, where did it pop out from? Ultimate Equipment?

This made me laugh, thank you (and I sincerely mean it). It was one of the changes that was implemented to avoid the "golf bag of weapons" syndrome of 3.5. It's been around for awhile ;)

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I removed a post. Chill.


James Jacobs wrote:
Saying "no one should get to ignore DR for having a high enhancement bonus" isn't callous. It's one GM's opinion.

That's not what you said. You said the monk shouldn't be able to w/ AoMF. You said nothing to the effect of banning it for everyone. Just that you didn't like it.


James has, on multiple occasions, said he dislikes the Enhancement bonus bypassing DR. Just because he didn't say the same in that one specific post, doesn't mean he's bashing on the Monk or being callous.


Agreed there are a lot of times I feel it cheapens the DR had by high level creatures. Maybe it should change to DR/anything but natural weapons and unarmed strike. I mean everyone else probably has a weapon good enough by the time you start seeing lots of these guys.


Actually, since the developers have said they are not going to obsolete the AoMF and that there won't be item fixes involved in the 'monk fix', this question should be able to be answered in short order. It is either a Yes or a No, after all.

I mean we aren't asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin; just whether or not the AoMF does the same thing that weapons do in regard to bypassing DR.

And with forty-three FAQ requests, maybe we will get this answered. Perhaps even before Christmas. :)

MA


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Seriously? Could we stop with the sarcasm towards the development team? All it does is make us look like a+!%~*!s.


That was not sarcasm, Tels. It was humor. Hence the 'smiley face' icon of :).

Perhaps bad humor, but humor nonetheless.

And the question isn't rocket science: it is either yes or no.

MA


master arminas wrote:

That was not sarcasm, Tels. It was humor. Hence the 'smiley face' icon of :).

Perhaps bad humor, but humor nonetheless.

And the question isn't rocket science: it is either yes or no.

MA

I know it's a Yes or No, but the Monk fans (of which you are a well known member of) have a bad reputation for being snarky and bashing on the developers. Maybe we should stop making comments like 'before Christmas' period?

Personally speaking, when someone points out a bad habit to me, I try and change that habit. Naturally, I won't be 100% successful, but I'll do my best to do so.

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tels wrote:
master arminas wrote:

That was not sarcasm, Tels. It was humor. Hence the 'smiley face' icon of :).

Perhaps bad humor, but humor nonetheless.

And the question isn't rocket science: it is either yes or no.

MA

I know it's a Yes or No, but the Monk fans (of which you are a well known member of) have a bad reputation for being snarky and bashing on the developers. Maybe we should stop making comments like 'before Christmas' period?

Personally speaking, when someone points out a bad habit to me, I try and change that habit. Naturally, I won't be 100% successful, but I'll do my best to do so.

I'm sure monk fans will stop making so many comments like that soon.

Master arminas, would you care to give us a time estimate? ;)

Silver Crusade

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Skylancer4 wrote:
"As a whole" being addressed doesn't mean "monk is going to be the best unarmed fighter" which is quite honestly what the majority of people complaining want.

Can't imagine whatever gave them the idea that the archetypical martial artist class was supposed to be the best at unarmed combat.

Having a monk class that's easier to make monk characters with that actually live up to their flavor would be a boost all on its own, honestly.

waiting patiently for the fix


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just a note to those counseling patience. Please note that patience is in the eye of the beholder (and he's got a lot of eyes on a lot of stalks, and each one's different).

There has been a lot of very hefty outstanding questions, and they've been outstanding for 6 months now. That's quite a very long time if you stop and think about it. And devs have said repeatedly, 'please, we will answer this, but we are busy, wait until after the cons'.

Now, some people have been patient, and some haven't. I won't make a judgement on who was which. But, now there is another quote from a dev (JJ above) that they are too busy to do the answers now, due to new development.

I am not demanding anything right now, I am however, politely asking this. If the devs are waiting until they have time to sit down and answer the monk issue, but are also always adding new things to their plate to do that are higher priority, precisely when does it turn from 'just be patient, we are working on it' to 'We just do not want to deal with that, we have other things more important to us'? Again, this is not saying we have reached that point yet, it's just a general question about how long is it to be patient? 6 months? 9 months? a year? Because, and let's be honest, there will always be something more important to do from a monetary standpoint, getting new product out the door. First it was UE, then ARG, then the cons, the clarifications to the enchanting/crafting rules, another bestiary perhaps, another con?

Again, this is not a slam on anyone, it's an honest question about expectations and what is patience and what is quit waiting and stop bothering to post any questions about monks? Because, quite honestly, at this point, I personally would rather either have the monk clarification, or a dev statement that they are not going to address it until PF2. Mainly so all the hate postings can go away, I'm tired of reading them. And they are from the pro-monks, the anti-monks, and some devs, so it's pretty much an all around thing that's growing into a viper pit on the boards.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

That would set the precedent about rules changes demands being fulfilled depending on who shouts the most or who is most capable of terrorizing the entire forum and turning every thread into their thread. Not sure if a good idea.

Also, it's gotten to the point where I'm eagerly awaiting a teary "Paizo, you failed me, bla bla bla, I'm quitting my account and never making any purchase with you again" post here. It's gotten *that* tiresome.

Yeah, feel free to make aghast comments of shock on my lack of good taste and good will towards the fellow man. Yawn.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Gorbacz wrote:

That would set the precedent about rules changes demands being fulfilled depending on who shouts the most or who is most capable of terrorizing the entire forum and turning every thread into their thread. Not sure if a good idea.

Also, it's gotten to the point where I'm eagerly awaiting a teary "Paizo, you failed me, bla bla bla, I'm quitting my account and never making any purchase with you again" post here. It's gotten *that* tiresome.

Yeah, feel free to make aghast comments of shock on my lack of good taste and good will towards the fellow man. Yawn.

One day, some pre-teen girl is going to kidnap and Bedazzle you and make you her purse. Then you'll sparkle like Edward.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You know Gorbacz has a good point.

However, I will add that the whole monk thing has suffered from several cases of the devs appearing to give the monk-lovers what they asked for, only to errata it away again. That's going to wind people up, whatever the reason. I don't agree with blaming the devs for this, but I do understand the frustration.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Tels wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

That would set the precedent about rules changes demands being fulfilled depending on who shouts the most or who is most capable of terrorizing the entire forum and turning every thread into their thread. Not sure if a good idea.

Also, it's gotten to the point where I'm eagerly awaiting a teary "Paizo, you failed me, bla bla bla, I'm quitting my account and never making any purchase with you again" post here. It's gotten *that* tiresome.

Yeah, feel free to make aghast comments of shock on my lack of good taste and good will towards the fellow man. Yawn.

One day, some pre-teen girl is going to kidnap and Bedazzle you and make you her purse. Then you'll sparkle like Edward.

Hey, I've had a dream about that the other day...


Dabbler wrote:
Astral Wanderer wrote:
This rule of enhancement bonuses bypassing material-based DR is new to me, where did it pop out from? Ultimate Equipment?
Core rulebook, under damage reduction, page 562.

Funny, totally forgot about it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Astral Wanderer wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Astral Wanderer wrote:
This rule of enhancement bonuses bypassing material-based DR is new to me, where did it pop out from? Ultimate Equipment?
Core rulebook, under damage reduction, page 562.
Funny, totally forgot about it.

It happens - a few weeks ago I discovered, after playing for years, that incorporeal now reduces damage by 50% rather than having a 50% miss chance.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:
Chernobyl wrote:
I would say of course it does. the AMF gives your natural attacks an enhancement bonus, making them magic weapons with a +3 etc bonus. If it didn't work that way, then neither does "magic fang", "magic weapon", or "greater magic weapon" for that matter.
That's just the point, they don't work that way. If you check the text they specifically say they only bypass DR/magic.

Dang...we've been doing that incorrect then. I should read the spell descriptions more carefully methinks. Well, in that case, if the item description doesn't address it one way or another (as it appears it doesn't in the amulet text) I'd say it reverts to the spell description (as magic fang is used to construct amulet of mighty fists, I'd say all you get is past DR/Magic as magic fang does.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Aye. The section on DR states that it has to be a weapon with an enhancement bonus. Now a weapon with an enhancement bonus is the same to a weapon with GMW cast on it as the unarmed strike with an AoMF is to an Unarmed strike with GMF cast on it, so I would say the AoMF would count - I can see why some would disagree, but it would be a dick move to nerf the AoMF when it costs as much as it does.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:
Aye. The section on DR states that it has to be a weapon with an enhancement bonus. Now a weapon with an enhancement bonus is the same to a weapon with GMW cast on it as the unarmed strike with an AoMF is to an Unarmed strike with GMF cast on it, so I would say the AoMF would count - I can see why some would disagree, but it would be a dick move to nerf the AoMF when it costs as much as it does.

We are talking about disarm immunity though. Do you even understand how powerful that is? Everyone else needs to buy a weapon cord or a locked gauntlet, but not the monk!

Disarm. Immunity.

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