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100 Things we’ve learned about / from Paizo


Paizo Publishing General Discussion

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2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is my 100th post on the Paizo Messageboards and I wanted to make it something special. After mulling it over for a few days, I decided to start a thread that I think will be fun for everyone.

The format I'm going to use is: short anecdote, lesson learned.

Today I made a new album on my FaceBook account called “Pathfinder Pics”. There are currently three photos of my kids playing through the Beginner Box and one of Paizo boxes stacked up in my game room (I’m deployed and having them sent home – read the PDFs here). Not 20 minutes after I uploaded the photos, Wes Schneider ‘liked’ all the photos. I was impressed that he’d take the time to do that and my kids were over the moon about it, once I explain who Wes is (via FB Chat).

First thing I've learned from/about Paizo is:

1. Paizo sees us as loyal fans and customers, not cash cows.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

Paizo does not play edition wars. Just don't even get close to doing it on the boards, they don't like it.


Quote:
Paizo does not play edition wars. Just don't even get close to doing it on the boards, they don't like it.

After reading the original post like 5 times, I still fail to find anything remotely close to an edition war comment by the OP. You might want to calm down a little.

As for the topic.

This I like about Paizo.

1. Loyal to customers.
2. Willing to explain why they do things certain ways.


Quality adventure content means more gaming for everyone and less GM burnout.


Arslanxelan wrote:
Pyrrhic Victory wrote:
Paizo does not play edition wars. Just don't even get close to doing it on the boards, they don't like it.

After reading the original post like 5 times, I still fail to find anything remotely close to an edition war comment by the OP. You might want to calm down a little.

I think that's what he has learned about Paizo.

Liberty's Edge Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Arslanxelan wrote:
Quote:
Paizo does not play edition wars. Just don't even get close to doing it on the boards, they don't like it.

After reading the original post like 5 times, I still fail to find anything remotely close to an edition war comment by the OP. You might want to calm down a little.

As for the topic.

This I like about Paizo.

1. Loyal to customers.
2. Willing to explain why they do things certain ways.

Perhaps you should have read his post as:

Things we’ve learned about / from Paizo:

Paizo does not play edition wars. Just don't even get close to doing it on the boards, they don't like it.

--------------------------------------

Ok, so my actual contribution:
100 posts or 10,000+ posts, you've got an equal shot of a Paizo staff member responding to your post/thread if it's something they are interested in. Paizo staff members don't only respond to customer service issues or flame wars. They have interests, and if you share them, you can have quite the interesting conversations with them.


I learned that when it comes to the Monk, Paizo does NOT treat us as if we were loyal fans and good customers.

I also learned that they seem skilled at brainwashing people into thinking that they can do no wrong, ever. It's almost scary.

Also, if I get banned for posting this, I might add that they have no respect for the freedom of speech, in any meaning of those three words.

Silver Crusade

13 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:

I learned that when it comes to the Monk, Paizo does NOT treat us as if we were loyal fans and good customers.

I also learned that they seem skilled at brainwashing people into thinking that they can do no wrong, ever. It's almost scary.

Also, if I get banned for posting this, I might add that they have no respect for the freedom of speech, in any meaning of those three words.

Freedom of speech =/= freedom to have jerks running around your house screaming whatever they want.


I don't know how you would come to the conclusion that I am a jerk or that I am screaming from me simply expressing my opinion.

Adding to the earlier list, I have learned that when it comes to settings and story-related things, James Jacobs does an awesome job.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:

I don't know how you would come to the conclusion that I am a jerk or that I am screaming from me simply expressing my opinion.

Adding to the earlier list, I have learned that when it comes to settings and story-related things, James Jacobs does an awesome job.

I didn't make any conclusion there, so if you would be so kind not to put words in my mouth. Thank you!

What I pointed out is that freedom of speech is about protecting people from state censorship and giving them the ability to voice their opinion in public sphere. You're not in the public sphere, you're at somebody's property. This is private, not state area.

If somebody gets permabanned at Paizo forums, it's not a violation of their constitution granted human rights, it's the Internet equivalent of a club host throwing out a guest that's behaving badly.


...or whom they perceive as behaving badly, if only because said guest told one bad thing about the host to someone else at the club.
Which would be rather childish, if you ask me.

Adding to the list as well, I've learned that community here is not that different from communities in other forums.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:

...or whom they perceive as behaving badly, if only because said guest told one bad thing about the host to someone else at the club. Which would be rather childish, if you ask me.

You can start your own community and establish your own rules there. I'd more than glad to participate!


I would if I had the time and the patience for it.
Currently I have neither of those.

Also, don't you plan on contributing to this thread?

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

I learned that unlike WoTC, Paizo realized that a company built around quality adventures could be more successful than one built around hardcover rulebook bloat. The APs are what keep me coming back here. No one makes adventures as good as Paizo's.

On the negative side, I feel that I have learned that the opinions of organized play members/PFS management matter more than general customers. If its a problem for PFS it gets solved, even if the solution is unpopular with the community at large. If its a problem for the community (monk), it gets studied.

I know some board members will take offense to this observation. Don't. I've been here an awful long time (since the plain blue site, actually). I've spent a boatload of dollars with Paizo. I'm not walking in out of the wild and slamming Paizo. This is just my opinion about things. I think they are a solid company, but no one is perfect. Monday morning rules quarterbacking (this is what we always meant when its a clear rules change based off their own publication history) and pandering to organized play are the problems i see here.

Liberty's Edge Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:


I also learned that they seem skilled at brainwashing people into thinking that they can do no wrong, ever. It's almost scary.

Sure, there are a few posters like that on these boards. The word fan does derive from fanatic, after all. There are also a few people who come in to say Paizo can do no right. The majority of people around here seem to be the more rational type that see both good and bad in Paizo's works. You're in that category, from the posts I've read from you, but it seems you might be trying to head into the second category, which would be a shame.

Icyshadow wrote:


Also, if I get banned for posting this, I might add that they have no respect for the freedom of speech, in any meaning of those three words.

For someone who has posted over 1,300 times, you don't seem to have much of an understanding of Paizo's "banning" policy.

It goes something like this:

"We delete posts that are personally insulting or highly offensive. Threads that get too flamey get locked. We caution people when they step over the line too often. We may even give someone a few days off the boards to cool off, with an email explaining what we see."

One post about something you don't like about Paizo, even if it's a topic you've hammered on before, and you paint a picture of ban police storming down to make sure Paizo's reputation of happy customers is preserved, grappling you and shunting you off to the oblivion of tgd or similar sites that "get it".

Perhaps today you could learn that Paizo doesn't ban people for speaking their minds.*

*with the possible exception of those who insist on being complete jerks with no regard for the other people participating or reading the boards,those whose continuous, flagrant jerkery is beyond redemption, and the people who are responsible for illegal copies of their works circulating the internet.

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

That the good folks at Paizo and their freelancers know how to tell a good story.

Liberty's Edge Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think I learned a bit about Jason Buhlman's design philosophy between the GenCon when I had him sign my Beta Playtest printouts and this last GenCon listening to him respond to a question about Monk fixes.

Jason signed my Beta book with the phrase "It's not as broken."

And his response to the question on Monks went something along the lines of:
The monk class is not fixed with an easy solution, and we have no intention of fixing it with an item, because then every monk has to have that item. If we are going to fix the monk, it will be after GenCon.

He also flat out admitted that "the math already gets wonky at high levels" when discussing the Mythic rules, essentially admitting that Pathfinder didn't fix everything. Hell, when your lead designer admits that your game isn't perfect, who are we community members to declare that it is?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quote:

Perhaps you should have read his post as:

Things we’ve learned about / from Paizo:

Paizo does not play edition wars. Just don't even get close to doing it on the boards, they don't like it.

Wow failed my perception check big time! My Apologies.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:
Also, I'm curious as to know what you mean with your statement, Ravenmantle. It's deliciously cryptic.

Oh, just that in my opinion Paizo's adventure paths and modules are the very definition of good storytelling, mixing interesting stories with an intriguing setting and a solid rules system.


Ravenmantle wrote:
Oh, just that in my opinion Paizo's adventure paths and modules are the very definition of good storytelling, mixing interesting stories with an intriguing setting and a solid rules system.

Sorry, but that bolded part made me chuckle.

Pathfinder is just 3.5e with lots (and I mean lots) of minor tweaks, not some godly messiah of TTRPGs.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I love PF.
But sometimes i feel that organized play is less role playing and more like a tactical combat game.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Icyshadow wrote:

I learned that when it comes to the Monk, Paizo does NOT treat us as if we were loyal fans and good customers.

I also learned that they seem skilled at brainwashing people into thinking that they can do no wrong, ever. It's almost scary.

Also, if I get banned for posting this, I might add that they have no respect for the freedom of speech, in any meaning of those three words.

I've learned that people that use the phrase 'freedom of speech' tend to piss me off because they have no idea what it means. Government guaranteed rights have no bearing on private companies. To wit, you have no freedom of speech on a forum that is provided and paid for by a third party (Paizo for example).

As far as the thread goes,I've learned that Paizo staff cares about their product to a degree that I've never seen before, if their participation on the forum is any indication.

Dark Archive

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:
Pathfinder is just 3.5e with lots (and I mean lots) of minor tweaks, not some godly messiah of TTRPGs.

That's your opinion, of course. Keep in mind, though, that I didn't say that it was the messiah of table top RPGs. I said it was a solid system. And I said that because I feel it's a solid system. I've tried a lot of fantasy RPGs in my time as a gamer, and I find that I have never had as much fun with fantasy RPGs as I have with this version of the game. Your mileage may, and obviously does, vary and that's cool. We all have different perceptions of what makes a fun roleplaying experience, just as we do with every other aspect of life.


You got ninja'd on that whole "freedom of speech" thing, wolfman.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I play a few PbPs here. Most of them allow pretty much everything, but one only uses the CRB. It's just as fun as the other games.

You can get all the books, or just one, and have a good time with it right away.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

That Paizo has the coolest CEO. Period.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've seen stuff on PF that i would never see in 3.5, and thats a very good thing


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Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Maps, Modules, Tales Subscriber

I've learnt lots of things. Off the top of my head:

Lots of snippets about how a publishing business works.
Stuff about copyright and IP.
Why some people care about rules consistency, clarity and balance.
It's still possible to build a business focussed around quality.
Some techniques for writing good adventures.
The value of artwork in an rpg supplement.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

I've learned how fun counter-trolling is.

Paizo Employee Webstore Gninja Minion , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Removed a post. Please stay positive.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Oh, another one, sadly negative (Liz, have mercy):

- I'll never marry Crystal Frasier ;/


underling wrote:

On the negative side, I feel that I have learned that the opinions of organized play members/PFS management matter more than general customers. If its a problem for PFS it gets solved, even if the solution is unpopular with the community at large. If its a problem for the community (monk), it gets studied.

I know some board members will take offense to this observation. Don't. I've been here an awful long time (since the plain blue site, actually). I've spent a boatload of dollars with Paizo. I'm not walking in out of the wild and slamming Paizo. This is just my opinion about things. I think they are a solid company, but no one is perfect. Monday morning rules quarterbacking (this is what we always meant when its a clear rules change based off their own publication history) and pandering to organized play are the problems i see here.

I kinda have to agree with this...

by the way; Paizo need more "Watch-dogs" for week-end and Holidays duties.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I learned: Good rule design doesn't mean caving to people's personal interests just because they are very vocal. You can't fix a class with an item, even if everyone was expecting you to for some reason.


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Hmmm, what have I learned? Well, one thing is you JUST cant please everyone. This generation of DO IT MY WAY OR YOU SUCK consumers really tickles me. What a sense of entitlement they have. Seems to me if a game continues to sell and be profitable, it must have something going for it. Irks me almost as much as game magazines trying to TELL consumers what is good, like word of mouth and units moved have no bearring as to whether a game has succeeded or not.

I have not been "brainwashed" by Paizo. I respect their dedication to the game as fans themselves, while balancing the need to eat (Read as: move product) I think they are doing an admireable, albeit mostly thankless, job.

Oh well, maybe I am not as critical because in "my day" you had to wait months, sometimes years for new gaming material. Lots of competition nowadays. Lots of stuff available now, though a whole lot of it is just plain mediocre. Paizo seems to have consistently good product/content. Just my opinion, mind you, worth no more or less than anyone elses'. Food for thought?


Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Maps, Modules, Tales Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
I've learned how fun counter-trolling is.

Is that what you call it?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've learned that the folks at Paizo are doing an admirable job at carrying on a roleplaying tradition that so many of us love. They've tried awfully hard to fix issues that plagued 3.5 (successfully in many cases I might add). As no good deed goes unpunished though, so many players of Pathfinder seem to feel that Paizo just doesn't do enough, yet they continue to play a game that they bemoan is broken.

Now I'll let you in on something I learned when I DMed my first game 28 years ago: The game is yours. Unless you are play PFS, you can fix whatever you want, however you want. This game used to be played with imagination and intuition. Two things I've learned the people at Paizo seem to have in spades.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wow! This thread is awesome - in a rollercoaster of tone kind of way!

In my original post I mentioned the pictures. Some gamer friends of my wife saw the pictures and wondered what Pathfinder was. They did some research and thought it was great that my kids were playing.

Now they want to start a gaming group for my kids and a couple of their friends.

I've learned that Pathfinder can be contagious.

I've also learned that Pathfinder is causing me to go broke.

I'll be ordering another CRB for my kids soon. The Beginner Box got them infected, they need the CRB to let the contagion run its course...


1, you can have a rpg business heavily focused on adventures
2, that you simplify grapple by making it less simple
3, people will pay for a well 'supported' living game
5, there editting is abit twitchy ;-)

Paizo Employee Sales Imp

14 people marked this as a favorite.

I've learned that cool jobs can happen.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Paizo taught me that when game products are being made by actual gamers, everyone wins.

Cheers, Paizo.


Mercutio Lives wrote:

I've learned that the folks at Paizo are doing an admirable job at carrying on a roleplaying tradition that so many of us love. They've tried awfully hard to fix issues that plagued 3.5 (successfully in many cases I might add). As no good deed goes unpunished though, so many players of Pathfinder seem to feel that Paizo just doesn't do enough, yet they continue to play a game that they bemoan is broken.

Now I'll let you in on something I learned when I DMed my first game 28 years ago: The game is yours. Unless you are play PFS, you can fix whatever you want, however you want. This game used to be played with imagination and intuition. Two things I've learned the people at Paizo seem to have in spades.

1. Can't say I agree with you on that "fixed stuff that was wrong with 3.5e" part, to be honest.

2. Not all DMs like houserules, and play the game vanilla, even if the players know better than to use "flawed" rules.
Some DMs think all things that aren't on official books are automatically broken, which is rather short-sighted, given the role the DM has.

3. I've learned that Paizo's forum is fun, even when I end up bickering with people from around the world. Though that's not the only reason for hanging out here.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Adventures CAN make a company money. :-)


Hrm...

-I have learned that an Open Gaming License is good for Paizo and beyond.
-From that, generosity recapitulates generosity; Paizo has offered many/is working on many freebies.
-The level of passion people have for game mechanics is impressive.
-Fixing issues in game mechanics isn't easy, but it's worth it.
-The pain of governing a gaming community is far outweighed by the value of having said community.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

I've removed a couple of posts discussing the behavior of a specific individual; that's not appropriate here.

We don't ban people for disagreeing with us. Very few people have actually been banned, and by far the most common reason for getting banned is that individuals repeatedly violate the "don't be a jerk" rule and ignore moderator warnings.

The Exchange

- that great stories work across multiple RPG rulesets (with conversions from a GM)

- That the guys who write the games are happy to take constructive feedback on these boards and also pop in to help clarify issues for folks.

- One thing I've learned from this site is that many folks read the mintuia of the rules and see errors and loopholes. My group tends to see guidelines for playing and interacting. I know this comes down to personal preference and hold neither method as better, but I was surprised by the sheer number of folks who follow the other method rather than my groups. (Woke me up to my own egotistical view of the world I guess)

- That PDF format actually makes my games easier to DM and more fun to run for me. I wouldn't have discovered this if Paizo didn't offer the PDF's for sale.

- That I can keep going with my hobby without selling a Kidney to buy the books and modules. PDF's are far cheaper for me than being able to purchase hard copies here in Australia. (less than half price for hard copy AP's and significantly less than half for rule books. Amazing)

Grand Lodge

The Good: Cheap Gateway makes for returning dedicated customers
The Bad: Poor technical editing can make a good product feel 'meh'.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

I've learned that, since Paizo was a 3pp at one point, that I shouldn't discount all 3pps. I should give them a chance. Paizo created a quality product that I find is superior in many ways to the old system but still works with it in many ways with only minor changes. I have started looking at 3pp for Pathfinder and have found some real gems.

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