Hey everyone.
Let me first apologize for bringing this topic up again.
I know it has been done over and over and I took loooong time to search the various threads about it.
But - alas! - I found no adequate answer to my question:
I want to remove alignments from everything EXCEPT outsiders.
I already made some simple changes:
- Outsiders retain their alignments & subtypes
- Undead are always considered "Evil"
- Classes with the aura ability retain this aura (and are detected by "Detect Outsiders")
- Paladins gain "Smite Enemy" instead of "Smite Evil", but no additional effect against Dragons
- "Detect Alignment" is now "Detect Outsiders"
- Paladins and Inquisitors may choose either "Detect Outsiders" or "Detect Undead" as spell-like ability at will
- All non-outsider non-undead are considered "True Neutral"
(This is merely a "quick-fix" and could be dropped once the remaing questions are solved)
So the real problem comes with spells, magic items & monsters/damage reductions.
And that's where I could use your help:
Example: How would you treat spells like "Protection from Alignment" or "Magic Circle"?
Would you drop or change alignment based damage reduction?
Do you see other spells/items/monsters/stuff which could pose a problem?
I hope some of you can and will help me with this, so I say thank you for reading and hopefully for your input.
Keep them as they are. They work against outsiders and undead, that's enough.
They just go in usefulness from Mage Armor to Endure Elements. Still useful, but not a standard buff.
EDIT: What does "smite enemy" do btw? If it's just against anyone, I think you need to nerf it down a bit in power, like dropping the AC bonus or halving the damage boost. If it's just against outsiders/undead, the paladin might need a versatility buff (like, one more spell per level per day or something).
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I would make detect evil and Smite Evil into detect corruption and Smite Corruption. Acting against creatures with Aura Of Evil (i.e. Undeads, Evil-subtype Outsiders and those who get aura of evil as a class feature).
You might want to look at Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, if you can find the rules for it anywhere. This was one of the times where alignment removal was successful. :)
I'd consider adding Detect Chaos to the Paladin's list of abilities, just so they don't lose so much.
Not trully necessary, though.
Thank you all for the fast replies:
@ stringburka:
Don't you think it will nerf them too much?
Paladin can use his smite against any foe. I don't really think it's to powerful. Most enemies you fight are evil anyways so...
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@ Drejk:
Basically, that's what "Detect Outsider" does, except for the undead, but that's what "Detect Undead" is for, isn't it?
AND it detects ALL sorts of Outsiders not just one "kind". I always disliked the split. At least for the axis. Good/Evil and Law/Chaos are direct opposites so I imagine a spell or ability that detects one should also detect the other (Think of evil = black aura, good = white aura, neutral = shades of grey)
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@ Arazni:
Thank you very much for this tipp, I actually have that book and will take a look soon.
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@ Lemmy:
There is no "Detect Chaos" anymore. See @ Drejk.
Maybe I didn't write that clear enough:
"Detect Outsiders" can detect ANY sort of outsider aura. Only if you keep concentrating you see the alignment descriptor of the aura.
Classes with the aura ability (aka Clerics and Paladins) are also detected by this spell in the same manner as outsiders are.
Example:
A cleric of a lawful evil deity has a lawful & evil aura detectable by "Detect Outsiders".
@ Lemmy:
There is no "Detect Chaos" anymore. See @ Drejk.Maybe I didn't write that clear enough:
"Detect Outsiders" can detect ANY sort of outsider aura. Only if you keep concentrating you see the alignment descriptor of the aura.
Classes with the aura ability (aka Clerics and Paladins) are also detected by this spell in the same manner as outsiders are.Example:
A cleric of a lawful evil deity has a lawful & evil aura detectable by "Detect Outsiders".
Ah, I see, it detects all outsiders... I thought it only detected outsiders with the evil subtypes.
Removing/adjusting alignment from D&D and Pathfinder is no small task, even with the smaller list of changes you're proposing. I did it, but had to do a lot of research before I began. The most useful site I found regarding this is here:
Intelligence Check - Removing Alignment from Pathfinder.
He includes information about spells, classes, monsters and aligned damage reduction and so on. Very worth the read.
At the risk of sounding trollish, why do you want to remove it?
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I would instead change how it's treated rather then remove it. I.E. Instead of Smite Evil, go with Smite Non-good.
I haven't seen all the complaints but the biggest one I see is that it is tactically superior to pick neutral. Remove that (by making neutral the most vulnerable) and then people will have to actually choose and it becomes a much bigger choice that remains more balanced (yeah neutral is out of balance but only the RPers will actually pick it, and only for RP reasons, and it's not as badly unbalanced this way).
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Also, I think redefining what the alignments are would help (IRL people being something other than neutral is rare) the game defines them too much and I would agree with removeing the alignment based restrictions in most cases.
My redefintion of the alignments, summery,
Good, values the community over the self
Evil, values self over others
Lawful, is strongly commited to ones values and beliefs.
Choatic, remains uncommited to any values, possibly indecisive or just doesn't ponder it.
Neutral in both cases falls in between.
I.E.
True neutral might be giving to family and friends but not strangers, following their values usually but will break them if presssured, etc
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I think useing both of the above would be good for what most want.
Some more of what I would do,
Paladin requires lawful non-evil (lawful means being commited to values, if it's not against your values then it won't stop your paladinhood, but the commitment is the focus of the concept)
Detect Alignment type spells, shows the truth as above but few people actually understand that and think an evil must have commited crimes and such.
A lot of minions become neutral (zombies, etc), particularly low int things that can't always understand morality, interestingly animals become NG for communal critters and NE for solitary, and N for those that go either way (like cats, some live in prides and some alone)
Protection spells protect from differing alignments or the same alignments, instead of specific alignments.
Only creatures capable of understanding morality can have an alignment (no aligned weapons and such) DR is bypassed by anyone with the correct alignment (fluff is the techniques and how ones alignment affects their methods, results in greater or worse effectiveness against some monsters).
No change alignment spell.