Mergy wrote:

Is there a chance of getting official PFS ruling on this? It would certainly help with table variation issues.

Sure. New tricks require mechanics. Because it requires a GM to basically create the rules for something that doesn’t already exist, you can’t create it in PFS. If the trick is listed somewhere, as mentioned with the Air Walk spell above, the you may take it.

Whelp, I guess I am making SR checks to heal my mount after all next level :P

Thanks for answering Mike.

Would it be safe to assume that my bonded mount at least knows how to use any feats it knows without AH check? Specific example in this case is my mount has the Bodyguard feat. It would HOPEFULLY know to use it and protect me when it happens.

Edit: Also, as an FYI, a quick and dirty search in a spell database tells me air walk is the only instance of this happening :P

Edit 2: for the record, I honestly hate ACs.. ugh

Specific example in this case is my mount has the Bodyguard feat. It would HOPEFULLY know to use it and protect me when it happens.

Guard is a listed trick - the animal is smart so it would know how to guard. You still need the HA check to make it perform a trick it knows, though - which would be a move action for a Paladin...

Well it's probably his bonded mount so a free action...

Guard is a listed trick - the animal is smart so it would know how to guard. You still need the HA check to make it perform a trick it knows, though - which would be a move action for a Paladin...

I hope that for the love of god this line in the Paladin section takes care of that.

The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.

Or, you know, the fact that it's intelligent and it can understand me (skill point in linguistics). The purpose of the Animal Handling check is to convey to the animal what you want them to do, since it can't understand you. Since I can talk as a free action, and it can understand me, I would hope that counts for "handling it" as a free action.

If this is ruled any other way, paladins with bonded mount are pretty much unfeasible in pfs.

Would it be safe to assume that my bonded mount at least knows how to use any feats it knows without AH check? Specific example in this case is my mount has the Bodyguard feat. It would HOPEFULLY know to use it and protect me when it happens.

Yes

I hope that for the love of god this line in the Paladin section takes care of that.

In my game, I'd certainly run it that way - similar for cavaliers, although they tend to be on the horse most of the time, as it were...

Can this please make it into the next guide?

Also can we find out about animal companions auto flanking? "It's a wolf.... It's what they do"

This is the most contested thing I find with ACs.

Can this please make it into the next guide?

Also can we find out about animal companions auto flanking? "It's a wolf.... It's what they do"

This is the most contested thing I find with ACs.

While I've been a huge opponent of using Animal Companions as though they had the same tactical acumen as a character, James Jacobs has a post (perhaps Jiggy can link it) from his "Ask James Jacobs" thread, that essentially says that Animal Companions are a class feature, so he sees no problem with allowing the player to maneuver the animal companion around as necessary to perform various fuctions, like flanking.

While James Jacobs posts are not considered clarifications in-so-much as PFS is concerned (the part of Guide 4.2 that indicates that one cannot ignore message board posts that are clarifications), I do take his word with a lot of weight, and have chosen to loosen up how I allow animal companions to act when I'm the GM.

That being said, there are still protocol things that will require a "push" and such, and that is up to the GM and what he finds silly or not for that particular type of animal.

That being said, there are still protocol things that will require a "push" and such, and that is up to the GM and what he finds silly or not for that particular type of animal.

And I fully agree with you, and I too thank JJ for for that post.

However where is the line?

It's an (normally) Int 2 animal. Yet I see players all the time that use it as tho it had the tactics of Gen. Schwarzkopf.

Then you can get the argument "Well if they don't need a trick to flank, JJ said so, then why the hell do they need one to XXXXXX?"

Class feature or not, can we maybe lay down how they actually work?

Again I appreciate all the help from everyone, JJ, Mike and all of you.

LINK

Here is the link to James Jacob's post.

I firmly believe that Players have the responsibility to be reasonable in what they choose to do. If they start doing things that appear silly or over the top, because RAW doesn’t say they can’t, then they are shirking said responsibility. This could simply be because that’s how they were taught to play by those around them, for some unknown quirk of fate truly believe what they are doing is reasonable (on the flip side, some GM’s are incredibly strict and unreasonable on certain things), or they are maliciously flouting common sense.

As such, I think you can expect table variance. There are just too many complex things that can happen in a combat for the Campaign Staff to create a comprehensive list of what animal companions can, and cannot do. There are bigger fish to fry, so to speak, and the resources aren’t there to spend time on this, when common sense should apply.

I have an 8th level Druid, and one of his skill points, every level, has gone into Handle Animal. He also took a trait (and his archetype helps too) to help with Handle Animal. My Cavalier is also really good at Handle Animal and took some magic items to help him with it. Both have roughly a 70% chance to push right now. If you are playing a Druid Character with an Animal Companion and your schtick is to use the Animal Companion creatively in combat, then it behooves you to pump up your Handle Animal as much as you can (and consequently not dump Charisma to 7) for those moments where the GM feels your action moves beyond common sense and asks you to push your animal.

It's an (normally) Int 2 animal. Yet I see players all the time that use it as tho it had the tactics of Gen. Schwarzkopf.

I don't think thats possible, because pathfinder combat really isn't that complicated. Flanking is a natural behavior. so is trying to get next to the big thing that you're tryinig to eat without being hit (acrobatics doesn't have to be a cartwheel)

If the plan is as complicated as "we all surround him, I'll attack him from behind , when he drops the thing he's holding to come after me you take it and run, and then we'll share it later" we'll i've watched ravens do that to a wolf.

Ranger's animal companions share their favoured enemy bonuses, that implies a lot of training and understanding, flanking in that instance doesn't seem particularly outrageous.

I have an 8th level Druid, and one of his skill points, every level, has gone into Handle Animal. He also took a trait (and his archetype helps too) to help with Handle Animal. My Cavalier is also really good at Handle Animal and took some magic items to help him with it. Both have roughly a 70% chance to push right now. If you are playing a Druid Character with an Animal Companion and your schtick is to use the Animal Companion creatively in combat, then it behooves you to pump up your Handle Animal as much as you can (and consequently not dump Charisma to 7) for those moments where the GM feels your action moves beyond common sense and asks you to push your animal.

This. This so many times. Handle Animal is more important to animal companion users than Spellcraft is to wizards.

(I have a similar feeling about climb speeds and have caught 2 people abusing climb speeds so far)

There is supposed to be a smaller book coming out soon that covers more about animal companions. I saw it in the product preview book from Gencon but its actual name escapes me. Maybe this will help put an end to a lot of debate over the power of an AC.

Back on the camel though this rule was talked about a little earlier but ill quote it so people know what im talking about

Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.

If you can tell me how a 4 legged animal can grapple ill let it have that chain of feats.

If you can tell me how a 4 legged animal can grapple ill let it have that chain of feats.

Two words: Police Dog

(P.S. The video has an example of a grapple lasting more than one round, and even other people joining in on the grapple.)

Edit: Really though, this thread just goes to show that an ape wielding a weapon really wasn't that far out there, and some people need to just chill.

If you can tell me how a 4 legged animal can grapple ill let it have that chain of feats.

Grizzly with someone in a pin

There is supposed to be a smaller book coming out soon that covers more about animal companions. I saw it in the product preview book from Gencon but its actual name escapes me. Maybe this will help put an end to a lot of debate over the power of an AC.

Back on the camel though this rule was talked about a little earlier but ill quote it so people know what im talking about

rules wrote:

Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.

If you can tell me how a 4 legged animal can grapple ill let it have that chain of feats.

You dont think that lions and tigers and bears can grapple people?

A camel might be a bit more of a stretch but the idea that 4 legged animals dont grapple is rather silly.

Well I don't really want to debate it but the dog didn't really grapple and pin, the bear did but those are a whole other realm since their front 'legs' have much more versatility then a camels legs. Thats all I will say on that.

My point is I don't see a camel being able to grapple in its normal state and honestly if the player wants to spend all that effort for what I would see as little more than a parlor trick he can go right ahead.

Lets just see if any coming documents answer these questions. As a user of a AC this stuff concerns me too.

Two words: Police Dog

(P.S. The video has an example of a grapple lasting more than one round, and even other people joining in on the grapple.)

Every player should know that you can't join a grapple. You can assist and give a +2.

So this proves dogs grappling in Pathfinder is illegal as other can join in.

Grizzly with someone in a pin

So that's how overbearing works.

Every player should know that you can't join a grapple. You can assist and give a +2.

So this proves dogs grappling in Pathfinder is illegal as other can join in.

Well played, Thod. I didn't realize that video hadn't been updated to PFRPG. I'm sure its on the to-do list right after the Season 0 mods. ;)

Can I make a druid character called Xzibit and get a crane companion that I teach all the Crane style martial art feats?
So my crane can crane when he cranes?

How do you teach a Camel to take all the grapple feats while it has a bipedal humanoid anthromorphic body? Especially when it's weird, disgusting new body will only last for 1 hour per level, and it's intelligence is only 3?

Anyway, this frightful Joe the Nightmare Camel Man is not grappling with the mouth, it is grabbing victims with his mutated camel-hands. The creature can barely speak. God only knows how it is clothed.

Can I make a druid character called Xzibit and get a crane companion that I teach all the Crane style martial art feats?

So my crane can crane when he cranes?

How do you teach a Camel to take all the grapple feats while it has a bipedal humanoid anthromorphic body? Especially when it's weird, disgusting new body will only last for 1 hour per level, and it's intelligence is only 3?

Anyway, this frightful Joe the Nightmare Camel Man is not grappling with the mouth, it is grabbing victims with his mutated camel-hands. The creature can barely speak. God only knows how it is clothed.

You have to bring the clothes with you, or else you got a naked humanoid walking around with at least two humps that need covering...

Can I make a druid character called Xzibit and get a crane companion that I teach all the Crane style martial art feats?

So my crane can crane when he cranes?

How do you teach a Camel to take all the grapple feats while it has a bipedal humanoid anthromorphic body? Especially when it's weird, disgusting new body will only last for 1 hour per level, and it's intelligence is only 3?

Anyway, this frightful Joe the Nightmare Camel Man is not grappling with the mouth, it is grabbing victims with his mutated camel-hands. The creature can barely speak. God only knows how it is clothed.

Best post bar post I've read in a long time. Apologies in advance if inferring you were in an altered state is insulting.

Most of my rules adjudications give the impression of coming from someone who's knocked back far too many in one night ;D

(Digressing a bit...)

If someone told me that their animal had been trained to routinely flank when it attacked, I'd take that at face value.

I'd also remember the player's preference when it might not be as convenient, directing the player to "push" the animal whenever he didn't want the animal to move into flank. He might want to keep charge lanes open, keep the animal next to a healer, or avoid putting it in the way of missile fire or allies with polearms.

The player can have what he wants, but he has to be consistent and deal with reasonable consequences of his choice.

(Digressing a bit...)

If someone told me that their animal had been trained to routinely flank when it attacked, I'd take that at face value.

I'd also remember the player's preference when it might not be as convenient, directing the player to "push" the animal whenever he didn't want the animal to move into flank. He might want to keep charge lanes open, keep the animal next to a healer, or avoid putting it in the way of missile fire or allies with polearms.

The player can have what he wants, but he has to be consistent and deal with reasonable consequences of his choice.

I have to disagree. Because a highly trained and intelligent animal is not going to do things until you give them the command. Police dogs are prime examples of this. And they do not have the capability of having a 3 intelligence IRL.

I have to disagree. Because a highly trained and intelligent animal is not going to do things until you give them the command. Police dogs are prime examples of this. And they do not have the capability of having a 3 intelligence IRL.

Not necessarily true. One of the officers on my beat when I was on the street was a K9 officer. I could go into a long discussion on some of the things the police K9 did that were totally unexpected (though amusing in some cases). Just because it is highly trained does not mean it won't do things without being commanded to do so.

I have to disagree. Because a highly trained and intelligent animal is not going to do things until you give them the command. Police dogs are prime examples of this. And they do not have the capability of having a 3 intelligence IRL.

I'm not sure that we disagree as much as you think. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt in many cases, but expect that a fighting animal will generally follow its training.

If a rogue PC tells me his riding dog is trained to flank when it attacks, then a regular DC 10 Animal Handling roll moves it into flank. If he instead wants to keep it interposed between his allies and his foes, he needs to either "push" the animal or invest a separate trick to that effect. I wouldn't even object to the claim that its trained to hold its position when ordered to Guard instead of attack, but the dog's behavior has to be consistent with the training claimed for it. The player can't assume that his dog always sees the most advantageous move without direction from its handler.

"I blew my Reflex save and fell into the created pit? My riding dog Lassie then goes to the edge of the pit and uses her mouth to pull my rope and grapple out of her pack saddle. Good girl, Lassie!"

Mark Moreland wrote:

sveden wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Bonus points of the AniComp is named Joe.

Joe is a lion.

This.

It would have been bonus points if he had a kangaroo AC called Joe. A lion called Joe is just boring.

My cleric's Lion's name is Franklin....his foes rarely think him or his name boring ;)