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RPG Superstar 2015

Camel companion with a grapple CMB of 23


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

This happened lately in a game on tier 5-9. An animal companion did successfully grapple a Nightskitter by doing a 41 CMD check for grapple.

In my view this was an 'interesting' use of the rules - and at least part of it in my view is PFS questionable.

Here is how more or less how it was done:

A camel is a large animal with high strength = high starting CMB

The next step is to cast Antromorphic animal (Ultimate Magic, Druid spell lvl 3). This turns the camel companion into a bipedal creature.

Now comes the PFS specific bit:
According to CRB animal companions with an Int of 3 or higher can any feat they are physical cappable of.

The camel had the feat chain:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Greater Grapple

The FAQ rules out specifically Weapon feats. Technically speaking - these are not weapon feats. Practically it seems even more ridiculous as a weapon wielding ape.

So is the feat chain allowed for companions in PFS?

Edit: separated rules related questions into spoiler

Additional Rules Question:

Question 1: The camel is likely combat trained - but would it need a Push Animal check by the druid to grapple?
Question 2: The bit about physically capable - does it always have to be physically capable to learn the feat or is it sufficient to occasionally while polymorphed to be physically capable of?

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

What's wrong with a player spending three feats that he can't use unless he blows a 3rd-level spell? This honestly bothers you?

Silver Crusade ****

Jiggy wrote:
What's wrong with a player spending three feats that he can't use unless he blows a 3rd-level spell? This honestly bothers you?

I'm not the OP, but to me the only problem is that he started from a camel. I just can't envisage a camel grappling somebody. An ape, a bear, a large cat. Sure. But not a camel. Thats just silly :-).

If a player pulled this at the table I'd laugh at them. Make lots of camel jokes. But I certainly would allow it.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

pauljathome wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
What's wrong with a player spending three feats that he can't use unless he blows a 3rd-level spell? This honestly bothers you?
I'm not the OP, but to me the only problem is that he started from a camel. I just can't envisage a camel grappling somebody. An ape, a bear, a large cat. Sure. But not a camel. Thats just silly :-).

Don't blame the player, blame anthropomorphic animal. It explicitly allows the use of unarmed strikes, and it even makes a snake grow arms! :/


2 people marked this as a favorite.

This is my official nomination for Cheese of the Week.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

<- this is me dreaming of Ultimate Combat II, which has a camel style feat chain on top of that....combining outrageous kung fu with razor-sharp spittle and hump slams

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

2 people marked this as a favorite.
ohako wrote:
hump slams

Dude, keep it PG-13 in here!

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

pauljathome

I didn't rule it out at the table during the event. I didn't understand how it's possible - so if in doubt - I'm not ruling against the player.

Surely an anthromophic camel can grapple. No questions about that part. And I have zero problems here.

What got me to question it was: Weapon feats are out ruled for companions in PFS. I see this as a weaponless variation of the weapon wielding companion.

I see two cases of players who might feel unhappy about this and wouldn't laugh about camel jokes:

A monk grapple specialist who can't beat a camel (I have one such player at my own group

A players who feels his companion got nerfed when it couldn't take weapon feats any more and see this construct being used

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Thod wrote:

I see two cases of players who might feel unhappy about this and wouldn't laugh about camel jokes:

A monk grapple specialist who can't beat a camel (I have one such player at my own group

If a player gets upset that someone else's PC/pet can do one thing better than their own PC can do that one thing, that's a maturity issue. Would they also be upset that the camel gets to have a spit attack and is constantly large without needing enlarge person?

Quote:
A players who feels his companion got nerfed when it couldn't take weapon feats any more and see this construct being used

Or like someone whose Undead Lord got banned and then sees a legal necromancy-themed cleric walking around? Sorry if it upsets them, but it does not merit intervention.

**

That is really funny. Kudos to that player!

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Bonus points of the AniComp is named Joe.

Grand Lodge ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:
Bonus points of the AniComp is named Joe.

Joe is a lion. That other Joe isn't approved for PG-13 PFSociety play.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Thod wrote:
This happened lately in a game on tier 5-9.

Was this player playing down a tier? This feat chain can not be completed on an animal companion before level 10. Greater Grapple requires a BAB of 6; animal companions get BAB of 6 at 9th level and obtain their next feat at 10th level.

As 'Grapple' is not a standard animal trick, I think by RAW you'd have to push an animal to do this, even if the animal companion can understand a language from the anthropomorphic animal spell.

There are multiple animal companions with higher strength that seem to be more suited to grappling builds, eg big cats and constrictor snakes from the basic list. Since the starting feat in the chain, Improved Unarmed Strike does not have any prereqs, I don't think a player would even need to cast anthropomorphic animal once they had increased the companion's int to 3 to open up the feat list.

I am more concerned with the numbers and would suggest double checking the large camel companion's grapple CMB. Unless significantly buffed, I'm not seeing it overcoming a CMD of 41 unless it's rolling close to a 20: BAB 6, +7 for Str 24, +2 Improved Grapple, +2 Greater Grapple, +1 for large size gives CMB 18 for grapple. An AoMF for the animal companion or greater magic fang could grant a few points of enhancement bonus. Were there a lot of other buffs in play? Let me know how the math for this worked.

Kudos to the player for a hilarious image regardless.

Paizo Employee ** Developer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
sveden wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Bonus points of the AniComp is named Joe.
Joe is a lion.

This.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

I love that with all the legality issues and whatnot in this thread, that this is what Mark Moreland comes in to say. I love Paizo's folks! :D

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

He reached 41 with a roll of 18 - that is as far as I remember.

I wasn't aware of any buffs - but I don't rule out that I missed one.

This was my third slot GMed and it was past midnight. So I didn't do an audit and check the math after the game as I likely should have done.

Actually it wasn't that great an idea to grapple the Nighskitter. A single bite and a failed fortitude check by the camel (and some high damage dice) - and the camel was below zero HP. The same player then insisted companions are dead if they are below zero HP and not at minus CON.

Interestingly on page 190 under Dead it only says a character is dead when he reaches negative constitution. I couldn't convince the player that this also applies to companions.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

You COULD teach the animal a "Trick: grapple". My paladin's animal companion (int 6) has like 18 tricks. Although arguably fully intelligent (and understands common), there is always the question by GMs of whether I need to push him or not. So I taught it tricks like:

Fly
Lower your SR (in preparation of level 11)
Flank
Aid Other
Use your Bodyguard feat on ally

and a few other "non-standard" tricks. What else am I going to do with all the extra trick slots!

*

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Dude, keep it PG-13 in here!

So, you're saying I really shouldn't note that the camel has digits at the ends of its feet which might provide a grapple bonus?

Or, that you could name the camel Fergie, and teach it to sing about its lovely hump?

:-D

Scarab Sages *

Ezekiel W wrote:
As 'Grapple' is not a standard animal trick, I think by RAW you'd have to push an animal to do this,

That is an interesting ruling. Would you also apply it to an animal with a natural grapple attack?

Liberty's Edge *****

Artanthos wrote:
Ezekiel W wrote:
As 'Grapple' is not a standard animal trick, I think by RAW you'd have to push an animal to do this,

That is an interesting ruling. Would you also apply it to an animal with a natural grapple attack?

Why would you need to?

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If an animal takes a feat or skill then it knows how to use that feat or skill. You can't make someone push an animal to get an animal to do something it very well knows how to do, and you can't get custom tricks in PFS, so you can't tell the player to train their animal companion to do it.

Grabbing someone and holding them down is something routinely taught to police dogs, so its not that hard.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
If an animal takes a feat or skill then it knows how to use that feat or skill. You can't make someone push an animal to get an animal to do something it very well knows how to do, and you can't get custom tricks in PFS, so you can't tell the player to train their animal companion to do it.

So, where did you see this ruling, because none of the FAQs say you can't.

PFSGtOP FAQ wrote:
You can teach any animal a trick so long as you follow the rules for Handle Animal on pages 97–98 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. A GM must observe your Handle Animal check, and must initial what tricks the animal gained in the "Conditions Gained" section of the scenario's Chronicle sheet. The first time a character with levels in druid, ranger, or any other class that grants an animal companion gains an animal companion, the animal enters play knowing its maximum number of tricks as dictated by the animal companion's Intelligence and the character's effective druid level. If the character replaces the animal companion for any reason, the new animal starts with no tricks known, save for bonus tricks granted based on the PC's effective druid level. Once per scenario, you may attempt to train the animal companion a number of times equal to the number of ranks you have in the Handle Animal skill. Each success allows you to teach the animal a single trick; a failed attempt counts against the total number of training attempts allowed per scenario, and you may not attempt to teach the same trick until the next scenario. Alternatively, you may train one animal for a single purpose as long as you have enough ranks in Handle Animal to train the animal in each trick learned as part of that purpose. You may take 10 on Handle Animal checks to teach an animal companion tricks.
CRB wrote:
Teach an Animal a Trick: You can teach an animal a specific trick with 1 week of work and a successful Handle Animal check against the indicated DC. An animal with an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three tricks, while an animal with an Intelligence score of 2 can learn a maximum of six tricks. Possible tricks (and their associated DCs) include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following.

Dark Archive ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:

If an animal takes a feat or skill then it knows how to use that feat or skill. You can't make someone push an animal to get an animal to do something it very well knows how to do, and you can't get custom tricks in PFS, so you can't tell the player to train their animal companion to do it.

Grabbing someone and holding them down is something routinely taught to police dogs, so its not that hard.

I was under the impression this was still up for debate. Certainly creating tricks for your animal companion is something allowed in the Handle Animal rules, and not explicitly disallowed in the Guide.

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

Crobledo

How do you get 18 Tricks for your mount?

As far as I understand the rules it is 3 for Int 1 and 6 for int 2 and bonus tricks according to your level. So even a companion of a level 20 druid has < 18 tricks.

Maybe someone playing Druids can confirm this. I didn't see anywhere you get Int times 3 tricks in the rules.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Thod wrote:

Crobledo

How do you get 18 Tricks for your mount?

As far as I understand the rules it is 3 for Int 1 and 6 for int 2 and bonus tricks according to your level. So even a companion of a level 20 druid has < 18 tricks.

Maybe someone playing Druids can confirm this. I didn't see anywhere you get Int times 3 tricks in the rules.

Also from the FAQ to the Guide to Organized Play. Its hidden in the last sentence here:

Quote:
No. An Intelligence of 3 does not grant animals sentience, the ability to use weapons or tools, speak a language (though they may understand one with a rank in Linguistics; this does not grant literacy), or activate magic devices. Also note that raising an animal companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher does not eliminate the need to make Handle Animal checks to direct its actions; even semi-intelligent animals still act like animals unless trained not to. An animal with Intelligence of 3 or higher remains a creature of the animal type unless its type is specifically changed by another ability. An animal may learn 3 additional tricks per point of Intelligence above 2.

Scarab Sages *

Seth Gipson wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Ezekiel W wrote:
As 'Grapple' is not a standard animal trick, I think by RAW you'd have to push an animal to do this,

That is an interesting ruling. Would you also apply it to an animal with a natural grapple attack?

Why would you need to?

You would not. I was commenting on Gipson's general comment regarding AC's requiring a handle animal check to use a grapple.


Artanthos wrote:
Ezekiel W wrote:
As 'Grapple' is not a standard animal trick, I think by RAW you'd have to push an animal to do this,

That is an interesting ruling. Would you also apply it to an animal with a natural grapple attack?

Nope, the companions with natural combat maneuver attacks have a grab attack for an automatic grapple check or an automatic trip check delineated as part of their attack sequence.

I think if you wanted to have an animal companion perform a dirty trick, sunder, or any combat maneuver that was not part of their regular attack sequence, it would require a Push attempt or being trained as a custom trick (if allowed). Animal tricks are listed for such very basic commands as 'Stay' and 'Down' so it seems unusual that you could have an animal companion execute a wide range of combat maneuvers without having it trained as a trick or making a push attempt.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter 2014

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
CRobledo wrote:
So, where did you see this ruling, because none of the FAQs say you can't.

None of them say that you can.

No custom tricks have been approved by the DM's. Without any particular custom trick being approved no custom trick is approved.

Liberty's Edge ****

2 people marked this as a favorite.

If this is the worst thing your players are doing, you're in good shape.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

BigNorseWolf wrote:
CRobledo wrote:
So, where did you see this ruling, because none of the FAQs say you can't.
None of them say that you can.

I just linked you the line that says you can:

Quote:
Teach an Animal a Trick: You can teach an animal a specific trick with 1 week of work and a successful Handle Animal check against the indicated DC. An animal with an Intelligence score of 1 can learn a maximum of three tricks, while an animal with an Intelligence score of 2 can learn a maximum of six tricks. Possible tricks (and their associated DCs) include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following.

There are explicit rules in the CRB that you can make your custom tricks. There has been no ruling by the PFS guide, leadership or any other source that you CANNOT. Ergo, you can.

Most GMs won't make me roll a Spell Resistance check when I try to CLW my celestial bonded mount. But for that ONE that will make me do either the SR check or an AH check to push my animal to "lower its SR", I would rather just teach my companion to do it, have it as a trick, and just command it for my DC 10 AH check (which I cant fail).

Either way, we are derailing a thread.

Liberty's Edge *****

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The major issues I see are thus:

The fact that an animal companion can take feats she could reasonably use. A camel cannot reasonably grapple on its own, and anthropomorphic animal doesn’t give it enough time to really train how to use a feat in my opinion. So a GM would be within their right to say that the Camel couldn’t have the grapple chain of feats, since even with an Int of 3, a Camel doesn’t really have the capacity to grapple. This would probably allow table variance.

I would say that you wouldn’t need to push an animal companion to use a feat that it has trained to be able to use. If you wanted your animal companion who hasn’t been trained in grapple to attempt it, then yes, pushing would be necessary.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter 2014

Crobledo wrote:
I just linked you the line that says you can:

Its as valid as the line that says you can make custom magic items. Its something thats supposed to be worked out between the player and the dm but since the dm isn't going to double check every possible use or abuse of the rule it defaults to it never happens.

Liberty's Edge *****

If you can’t create custom skills, feats, magic items, or spells in PFS, and you can’t use GM fiat to allow expanded animal companion lists, what makes you think you can create a custom trick?

Precedent has been set in PFS that you can’t create something that requires game mechanics to adjudicate its creation.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

What the quote in the Animal Handling section is saying is "here are some examples of tricks you can teach". I see the tricks as Craft and Profession skills. Would you say that you don't allow Profession (Barista) in your PFS games? Or Craft (doodads)?

Saying it is the same as items or feats is stretching the definition of custom. There are rules for creating magic items in the CRB. There are rules in the GTOP that forbid item creation. Done.

I actually think custom tricks, if anything, PREVENT abuse and table variation. How many times have I read the discussion here that "flanking" is something an AC has to make a push check for, because an animal "wouldn't do it themselves". Then we have people arguing that wolves (pack animals, with pack tactics) would totally be able to flank... etc...

I actually don't care if there is table variation on it. I think it is perfectly reasonable for me to teach my mount to lower its SR so I can heal it. Heck, its ACTUALLY intelligent. Some GMs would argue it's not even a DC10 AH check to do that, since I can literally ask him to. But my custom tricks are there just for that one time I get a GM who rules it otherwise.

I'd invite you to start a separate thread about it, and I will gladly mark it for FAQ.

Sczarni

5 people marked this as a favorite.

It's easy to teach your camel to grapple. But it's a lot harder to teach him not to chew on the luchador mask.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

And to Thod, I would also view it like Andrew posted above.

Andrew Christian wrote:

The fact that an animal companion can take feats she could reasonably use. A camel cannot reasonably grapple on its own, and anthropomorphic animal doesn’t give it enough time to really train how to use a feat in my opinion. So a GM would be within their right to say that the Camel couldn’t have the grapple chain of feats, since even with an Int of 3, a Camel doesn’t really have the capacity to grapple. This would probably allow table variance.

I would say that you wouldn’t need to push an animal companion to use a feat that it has trained to be able to use. If you wanted your animal companion who hasn’t been trained in grapple to attempt it, then yes, pushing would be necessary.

Liberty's Edge *****

CRobledo wrote:

What the quote in the Animal Handling section is saying is "here are some examples of tricks you can teach". I see the tricks as Craft and Profession skills. Would you say that you don't allow Profession (Barista) in your PFS games? Or Craft (doodads)?

Saying it is the same as items or feats is stretching the definition of custom. There are rules for creating magic items in the CRB. There are rules in the GTOP that forbid item creation. Done.

I actually think custom tricks, if anything, PREVENT abuse and table variation. How many times have I read the discussion here that "flanking" is something an AC has to make a push check for, because an animal "wouldn't do it themselves". Then we have people arguing that wolves (pack animals, with pack tactics) would totally be able to flank... etc...

I actually don't care if there is table variation on it. I think it is perfectly reasonable for me to teach my mount to lower its SR so I can heal it. Heck, its ACTUALLY intelligent. Some GMs would argue it's not even a DC10 AH check to do that, since I can literally ask him to. But my custom tricks are there just for that one time I get a GM who rules it otherwise.

I'd invite you to start a separate thread about it, and I will gladly mark it for FAQ.

Professions and crafts don’t require mechanics. The choice of what your profession is or what you can make, is largely a fluff choice, especially for PFS. The more obscure your choice, the less chance you have in that that skill may end up being useful in a scenario.

New tricks require mechanics. What can it do, what’s the DC for training it? Because it requires a GM to basically create the rules for something that doesn’t already exist, you can’t create it in PFS.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

This seems like the type of topic (at least from what I've seen here on the boards in this and other threads) where no one would be devasted to have it be decided one way or the other, just as long as we could get everyone on the same page.

Heck, I bet Mike Brock could flip a coin to decide and still satisfactorily end the argument of "custom" tricks.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

Mark Moreland wrote:
sveden wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Bonus points of the AniComp is named Joe.
Joe is a lion.
This.

It would have been bonus points if he had a kangaroo AC called Joe. A lion called Joe is just boring.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

9 people marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:


Heck, I bet Mike Brock could flip a coin to decide and still satisfactorily end the argument of "custom" tricks.

It was heads.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

...I guess I should have specified "and tell us the resulting answer to the debate". :P

Well played, Lord Goldhelm. Well played.

Grand Lodge *****

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

If a paladin mount starts with 18 or 20 tricks in PFS then you have to allow custom
tricks. There are only 12 tricks in the CRB. 13 if you count attack any enemy as double.

This is enough for a level 20 Druid with a companion that has no Int increase.

6 + 7 bonus = 13

But if you get 3 extra tricks for every Int above 2 as was pointed out to me in the PFS FAQ then you need custom tricks to fill the slots.

I've started a different thread about the non PFS number of tricks in the rules area. But PFS seems clear.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Excellent point, Thod.

Paizo Employee ** Developer

Michael Brock wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
sveden wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Bonus points of the AniComp is named Joe.
Joe is a lion.
This.
It would have been bonus points if he had a kangaroo AC called Joe. A lion called Joe is just boring.

The greatest musician of all time would beg to differ.

Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia , Star Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015 aka Iammars

Don't forget to count training your companion to use air walk, which is written in the spell as a possible trick for animal companions.

Dark Archive ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Is there a chance of getting official PFS ruling on this? It would certainly help with table variation issues.

The Exchange *

As someone one who used a camel as an animal companion (RIP-Water) of a retired Dwarven Druid- I think grappling for a camel would be to simply to sit on the enemy compatant. Having it do all that other silly stuff is well just plain silly.

Scarab Sages *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Michael Brock wrote:
Jiggy wrote:


Heck, I bet Mike Brock could flip a coin to decide and still satisfactorily end the argument of "custom" tricks.

It was heads.

The debate has ended... Mike Wins!!!!


Honestly this is one of the top rules i would love to see clarified for PFS

Can you train for the "Flank" trick?
Hows about Grapple(disarm, etc)?

I have seen a lot of custom tricks and honestly just a blanket "No", "Sure, go nuts" or "List X" would help a lot.

For the record, please toss me in the "No" camp.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 7 people marked this as a favorite.
Mergy wrote:
Is there a chance of getting official PFS ruling on this? It would certainly help with table variation issues.

Sure. New tricks require mechanics. Because it requires a GM to basically create the rules for something that doesn’t already exist, you can’t create it in PFS. If the trick is listed somewhere, as mentioned with the Air Walk spell above, the you may take it.

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