Anyone using Mistmail in PFS?

[nosig]

Mike Lindner wrote:

Ezekiel W wrote:

Dennis may be indicating that the listed price (2250g) does not equal 2x the listed cost (1250g), which does appear to be an error.

I cannot help Nosig with his original question (seen in PFS?) so will now bow out from this thread.

I've seen this on other items as well. Price is usually double the cost, but not always. As ever, the developers are allowed to ignore their own guidelines.

actually, it meets the guidelines.

The cost of the item also includes the cost of a masterwork chain shirt.

100 gp (chain shirt) + 150 gp (MW armor) + 1000 gp (Cost of +1 armor) and it looks like the cost of the "Mist" quality is +1000 gp. When crafting, only the magical components prices are half, the material components (in this case the MW chain shirt armor, cost 250 gp) are a constant.

[Dennis Baker]

nosig wrote:

Mike Lindner wrote:

Ezekiel W wrote:

Dennis may be indicating that the listed price (2250g) does not equal 2x the listed cost (1250g), which does appear to be an error.

I cannot help Nosig with his original question (seen in PFS?) so will now bow out from this thread.

I've seen this on other items as well. Price is usually double the cost, but not always. As ever, the developers are allowed to ignore their own guidelines.

actually, it meets the guidelines.

The cost of the item also includes the cost of a masterwork chain shirt.

100 gp (chain shirt) + 150 gp (MW armor) + 1000 gp (Cost of +1 armor) and it looks like the cost of the "Mist" quality is +1000 gp. When crafting, only the magical components prices are half, the material components (in this case the MW chain shirt armor, cost 250 gp) are a constant.

Ah, good catch, I forgot for the moment that weapons/ armor are different from most magic items.

[Ezekiel W]

Thanks for the pricing explanation.

[Todd Morgan]

If you are covered in mist, how can you benefit from the buffs of your allies without them being able to target you?

[Mike Lindner]

Todd Morgan wrote:

If you are covered in mist, how can you benefit from the buffs of your allies without them being able to target you?

It only provides partial concealment, not total concealment, so it does not prevent the misty person from being targeted.

[Saint Caleth]

nosig wrote:

Has anyone seen a PFS character using this armor in a PFS event?

I have seen one character using it at my table. It was a fighter, so they didn't try to stack mage armor with it or anything.

He had his armor in mist form for the whole scenario, and I ran it as the armor literally leaves his armor slot and becomes a concealment effect. This is the most logical way to do it based on what the armor would physically do. I'm not quite sure where people are getting this nonsense about the mist form of the armor hampering the wearer though, since as Jiggy pointed out, it is not actually obscuring mist.

[nosig]

Saint Caleth wrote:

nosig wrote:

Has anyone seen a PFS character using this armor in a PFS event?

I have seen one character using it at my table. It was a fighter, so they didn't try to stack mage armor with it or anything.

He had his armor in mist form for the whole scenario, and I ran it as the armor literally leaves his armor slot and becomes a concealment effect. This is the most logical way to do it based on what the armor would physically do. I'm not quite sure where people are getting this nonsense about the mist form of the armor hampering the wearer though, since as Jiggy pointed out, it is not actually obscuring mist.

Thank you!

Wow... a fighter swapping +5 AC for a 20% miss chance... that guy's got guts (and we may get to see too! lol).
Was he a ranged fighter? were/when did you see him?

[Saint Caleth]

nosig wrote:

Saint Caleth wrote:

nosig wrote:

Has anyone seen a PFS character using this armor in a PFS event?

I have seen one character using it at my table. It was a fighter, so they didn't try to stack mage armor with it or anything.

He had his armor in mist form for the whole scenario, and I ran it as the armor literally leaves his armor slot and becomes a concealment effect. This is the most logical way to do it based on what the armor would physically do. I'm not quite sure where people are getting this nonsense about the mist form of the armor hampering the wearer though, since as Jiggy pointed out, it is not actually obscuring mist.

Thank you!

Wow... a fighter swapping +5 AC for a 20% miss chance... that guy's got guts (and we may get to see too! lol).
Was he a ranged fighter? were/when did you see him?

He was a DEX fighter with a shield so it didn't put that huge of a dent in his AC. IIRC, he cited blocking sneak attacks as worth the trade-off, and was of the opinion that a miss chance is more powerful than AC, especially when he is trading an armor bonus for a miss chance effective against anything.

I am inclined to agree with him on both of those points.

[nosig]

Saint Caleth wrote:

nosig wrote:

Saint Caleth wrote:

nosig wrote:

Has anyone seen a PFS character using this armor in a PFS event?

I have seen one character using it at my table. It was a fighter, so they didn't try to stack mage armor with it or anything.

He had his armor in mist form for the whole scenario, and I ran it as the armor literally leaves his armor slot and becomes a concealment effect. This is the most logical way to do it based on what the armor would physically do. I'm not quite sure where people are getting this nonsense about the mist form of the armor hampering the wearer though, since as Jiggy pointed out, it is not actually obscuring mist.

Thank you!

Wow... a fighter swapping +5 AC for a 20% miss chance... that guy's got guts (and we may get to see too! lol).
Was he a ranged fighter? were/when did you see him?

He was a DEX fighter with a shield so it didn't put that huge of a dent in his AC. IIRC, he cited blocking sneak attacks as worth the trade-off, and was of the opinion that a miss chance is more powerful than AC, especially when he is trading an armor bonus for a miss chance effective against anything.

I am inclined to agree with him on both of those points.

I also really like the miss chance, and have normally counted the 20% as being slightly better than a +4 AC. And the freedom from Sneak Attacks... just icing on the cake.

Where was he playing? maybe I'll get lucky and do a CON out that way. I'd love to chat some with him on how it worked from table to table - what kind of Table Variation he gets with the Mistmail.

[TetsujinOni]

Caleth plays online since he's in rural china. I'm not sure what region the player with the mistmail is actually from...

[nosig]

sigh... oh, well. Thanks TetsujinOni!

[TriOmegaZero]

Is mistmail always available or do I need to find a chronicle with it?

[Jiggy]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Is mistmail always available or do I need to find a chronicle with it?

Neither - it's available to anyone with a sufficiently high Fame score, as per the chart in the Guide. (Though if you did find it on a chronicle, that would get you access as well.)

[TriOmegaZero]

Thanks Jiggy. Might have to see which of my characters would use it.

[james maissen]

nosig wrote:

have you encountered a lot of Table Variation on how it works?

Nosig,

You can encounter table variation with clear cut black and white rules straight from the books.

You can't really ignore it and hope to avoid it. Educate and publicize.

Mistmail would not reform due to mage armor being cast before or after the mist was activated. It is not donning armor, nor is wearing/putting on bracers of armor. A monk can use bracers of armor or a mage armor spell and still get their monk bonuses. This is very similar, and the later should be something that any judge would be used to seeing.

Note the wording on bracers of armor as opposed to mistmail.. this should be clear as to differing intent. As opposed to say a ring of shielding where a monk WOULD lose their bonuses when its active as it actually gives a shield.

As to a monk getting their bonuses when the mist is in that form: of course they would. The monk is at this point no more wearing armor (that hampers movement) than a monk that's been polymorphed and had worn armor meld into their body.

As to how long it would last: It lasts until

Quote:

Effects that disperse the mist or destroy it cause the armor to reform into its solid shape on the character's body, as does speaking the command word or entering a place where the fog-magic doesn't function (such as underwater).

It is not giving obscuring mist as the spell, so the duration of such a spell has no relevance to the item. Without one listed, it lasts until the situations above cause it to reform.

Basically you will see some GMs give knee-jerk reactions to something with which they are not familiar. Your best bet is to make it public like you are doing now to minimize this. Likewise have rationale and reasoning against these weird conclusions to which they might leap.

If the judge isn't going to listen and is being a jerk about it, then they are likely to do similar in other situations. Call it an early warning sign to bail,

James

[Lamplighter]

Let's stop assuming GM's are jerks because they rule differently than a player, please. GM's question something unusual that they haven't seen, because it's their job to do so.

Your best bet as a player to avoid table variance is to have the rules open to the relevant page for Mistmail, show it to them at teh start of the game, and ask them what they think. They're consider it, make a ruling, and then you can go by that. Don't expect a GM to take your word for something in the heat of combat without the rules handy, though; be proactive.

[Jiggy]

Who's talking about expecting a GM to take the player's word in the heat of combat?

[WalterGM]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Is mistmail always available or do I need to find a chronicle with it?

Jiggy has the right of it, however, you can find a suit of it here

Spoiler:

3-04, the Kortos Envoy

[Dragnmoon]

Jiggy wrote:

Who's talking about expecting a GM to take the player's word in the heat of combat?

Jiggy how often are you in the heat of battle with your GMs?... ;)

Jiggy in the Heat of Battle with his GM (Replace Foosball table with PFS Table)

[PaulH]

Hi

Not sure about the duration thing. According to what's been said, it's a PERMAMNENT concealment bonus, since it requires a command or specific set of circumstances to dismiss.

Note: Sleeping is NOT one of thos circumstances!

I think this item needs clarification, otherwiase it's far too powerful for price given. It's far cheaper than Cloak of Displacement, for example.

As for "Basically you will see some GMs give knee-jerk reactions to something with which they are not familiar. Your best bet is to make it public like you are doing now to minimize this. Likewise have rationale and reasoning against these weird conclusions to which they might leap.

If the judge isn't going to listen and is being a jerk about it, then they are likely to do similar in other situations. Call it an early warning sign to bail,"

Hardly an encouraging answer. Suggesting that the Player is often right whilst GM's have 'knee-jerk' reactions isn't necessarily accurate. Scott young had the best answer.

We need some authoritative advice on this. We may all be seasoned roleplaying veterans. I look forward to Paizo's official answer.

Thanks
Paul H

[TetsujinOni]

The 20% miss chance scales better than full plate does, but seems like a very chancy "gonna get crit a lot" choice.

[kinevon]

TetsujinOni wrote:

The 20% miss chance scales better than full plate does, but seems like a very chancy "gonna get crit a lot" choice.

Misfortune hex with cackle?

And there are things available at higher levels that can negate miss chances, like Seeking and Improved Precise Shot...

[nosig]

I do not understand where this thread has wondered....

[james maissen]

PaulH wrote:

I think this item needs clarification, otherwiase it's far too powerful for price given. It's far cheaper than Cloak of Displacement, for example.

While a cloak of displacement can't be removed by a breeze, nor does it take up an armor slot...

Its a nice item, but nowhere near being 'far too powerful'.

How many fighters elect to use mage armor for protection?

-James

[nosig]

James, so far we have had one person say they have seen someone using this armor. Otherwise, no one uses it.

[Iammars]

Now that I know about it, I'll probably pick it up for my ocean-themed witch. That 20% miss chance is going to better protection than his AC will afford him very soon.

[nosig]

Iammars wrote:

Now that I know about it, I'll probably pick it up for my ocean-themed witch. That 20% miss chance is going to better protection than his AC will afford him very soon.

Could you come back here after you run with it a few times and post what the Table Variation is like? Thanks! Can't wait to see the report!

[Iammars]

nosig wrote:

Iammars wrote:

Now that I know about it, I'll probably pick it up for my ocean-themed witch. That 20% miss chance is going to better protection than his AC will afford him very soon.

Could you come back here after you run with it a few times and post what the Table Variation is like? Thanks! Can't wait to see the report!

Sure. Hopefully I'll get a few games in with him soon, now that my other characters are far enough away from him level-wise. (I kept ending up at tables with no front line, so my fighter/monk shot ahead of him.)

[Derwalt]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Anyone tried combining Mistmail with Slippers of Cloudwalking? The slippers allow you to air walk in, and on, fog for up to ten minutes a day. Mistmail gives you fog wherever you go. So does that give you full air-walking?

I think the above would work - and be awesome :)

I also think that most high level arcane casters should get this item - don the armor, turn it into mist - now you got 20 % concealment and you're not wearing armor, so no arcane spell failure.

I would really like to make a character with this item now. But I don't know when I'll get the chance. If I do make one, or see someone else, I'll ping you Nosig.

[james maissen]

nosig wrote:

James, so far we have had one person say they have seen someone using this armor. Otherwise, no one uses it.

Clearly a sign that it is way too overpowered!

Here's a question for you:

Are you concerned how judges will rule on the spot without having read the item beforehand, or are you interested in what a consensus of judges would have on how the item should work?

Personally I think having more judges read the item beforehand would significantly lessen the 'variation' about which you might be concerned.

There is always a portion of people in any organized play judge pool that react to the combination of useful and new to them with 'OMG, WAY OP!'. If you are asking if that has gone away I very much doubt it.

This phenomenon is further fueled by the gamer need to be different and take opportunity to show off that difference. By finding something different that does not unequivocally lessen a character's usefulness there are people that react to that strutting as exploiting 'loopholes', 'power-gaming', and the like. This solidifies in their mind that this item is 'a problem' as they are not looking at it objectively, but rather colored by a player trying to hype it as a facet of their character's uniqueness (and thus awesomeness).

-James

[Derwalt]

Well put, James!

[Jiggy]

Indeed.

[Jiggy]

@nosig - If you want to consistently get fair and objective rulings from your table judge, your best bet is probably to "trick" them. Sure, some GMs do a good job of staying level-headed when presented with something clever or "new" (to them), but if you play with lots of different GMs it's going to be a crapshoot. If you tell the judge that you have X item with Y goal and ask them how it works, you're more likely than not to experience what James described.

Instead, approach them before the game with an open book and a confused look on your face. Tell them you were flipping through the APG and found this item and didn't understand it and maybe they could help explain it.

Now that their ego's been preemptively stroked, they will gladly read the item and give you their interpretation. If they get something objectively wrong (like thinking it will have the full radius of obscuring mist), intensify your facial expression of confusion and say "But I thought it said..." and point to the relevant line as you recite it.

Once the judge has caught up with what's in black and white, nod appreciatively and make a noise like you're starting to "get it". Then say "Okay, so that makes me wonder..." and ask them a question whose correct answer would be unfavorable to your PC (such as, "So when it's in mist form, do I lose the armor bonus?"). Nine times out of ten, they'll answer this one correctly.

Now you ask them other questions (like "how long does it last?") that can be phrased in ways to still seem detrimental to your PC, or at least neutral ("I didn't see a duration... So I guess if I wanted not to have an armor bonus all day, I could do that?" *chuckle like it's an obviously bad idea*). They'll probably get this one right, too. If they don't, then go back to the confusion and ask how they came to that conclusion. But make sure you look confused so they still feel like an altruistic helper!

Once they've finally committed to a few correct rulings, go for the obviously-positive aspects, but phrase them like they almost-but-not-quite redeem this terrible item. ("Well, on the bright side, I guess at least it would take away ACP/ASF if you wanted to burn that slot for it.") They should get this one right, too.

Now here's the fun part: the GM will now, in all likelihood, try to demonstrate his wisdom and experience by saying something like "Sure, it's not a good choice for most characters, but such-and-such type of PC would love it for reason X" and he will describe your character without even realizing it.

---------------

So with some ego-stroking, leading, and acting, you can eventually get your GM to not only correctly interpret but even recommend and item which they'd have cried "OP!" against if they encountered it in play.

Good luck!

[nosig]

Jiggy wrote:

@nosig - If you want to consistently get fair and objective rulings from your table judge, your best bet is probably to "trick" them. Sure, some GMs do a good job of staying level-headed when presented with something clever or "new" (to them), but if you play with lots of different GMs it's going to be a crapshoot. If you tell the judge that you have X item with Y goal and ask them how it works, you're more likely than not to experience what James described.

Instead, approach them before the game with an open book and a confused look on your face. Tell them you were flipping through the APG and found this item and didn't understand it and maybe they could help explain it.

Now that their ego's been preemptively stroked, they will gladly read the item and give you their interpretation. If they get something objectively wrong (like thinking it will have the full radius of obscuring mist), intensify your facial expression of confusion and say "But I thought it said..." and point to the relevant line as you recite it.

Once the judge has caught up with what's in black and white, nod appreciatively and make a noise like you're starting to "get it". Then say "Okay, so that makes me wonder..." and ask them a question whose correct answer would be unfavorable to your PC (such as, "So when it's in mist form, do I lose the armor bonus?"). Nine times out of ten, they'll answer this one correctly.

Now you ask them other questions (like "how long does it last?") that can be phrased in ways to still seem detrimental to your PC, or at least neutral ("I didn't see a duration... So I guess if I wanted not to have an armor bonus all day, I could do that?" *chuckle like it's an obviously bad idea*). They'll probably get this one right, too. If they don't, then go back to the confusion and ask how they came to that conclusion. But make sure you look confused so they still feel like an altruistic helper!

Once they've finally committed to a few correct rulings, go for the obviously-positive...

given time this could work. Mostly, I fear I will not have the time for that approach, as I normally play with a "new judge" at a convention/game day when time is more valuable than HP. I think it would be better to catch several judges in a more neutral setting when they have time to read and reflect and say something like "does anyone have a PC with Mistmail? If so, have you encountered a lot of Table Variation on how it works? I am thinking about buying it for a couple of my PCs...."

Thanks for the advice everyone!

[nosig]

Derwalt wrote:

Matthew Downie wrote:

Anyone tried combining Mistmail with Slippers of Cloudwalking? The slippers allow you to air walk in, and on, fog for up to ten minutes a day. Mistmail gives you fog wherever you go. So does that give you full air-walking?

I think the above would work - and be awesome :)

I also think that most high level arcane casters should get this item - don the armor, turn it into mist - now you got 20 % concealment and you're not wearing armor, so no arcane spell failure.

I would really like to make a character with this item now. But I don't know when I'll get the chance. If I do make one, or see someone else, I'll ping you Nosig.

Thanks Derwalt. I can't wait to hear how it comes out.

I did think of the use with an arcane caster (was going to show it to my wife for her caster) except... fire will drop it back to armor and suddenly you have an arcane spell failure in the middle of a fight. Just something to consider...
(and also some judges will rule that you have the spell failure even when the armor is in mist form).

[PaulH]

Hi

If Iammars uses it, then there's at least two players thinking of using/using it in our online group.

Still wondering abouut the perma concealment thing, would like an 'official' answer.

As for overcoming concealment? Simple - Truestrike! :P

My wandtsriking magus with wand Truestrike in off hand. Mistmail in mist form is an irrelevance!

Thanks
Paul H

[Katisha]

"Darling, Ah'm not looking to buy this armor for what it conceals - but rather for what it reveals! Ah think it would be handy to get out of my armor with a command word."

Bard with Profession Courtesan, and Bardic Masterpiece: Dance of Kindled Desires

[Katisha]

here's a kewl visual effect -
.
If you have Continual Flame cast on Mistmail - and then turn it into mist, does it still have the Continual Flame? does it appear to be "Flaming Mist"? wow, my bard just has to get this... though it would be very much YMMV, I can't really see any game advantage - just the cool visual effect! Esp. realizing that she has the "Hellfire" trait and can make her whip flame...

So... would a Continual Flame still work when the Mistmail is mist? Would a light spell?

[Mytiazair]

I've had a suit for quite some time. It's actually quite useful as an arcane trickster (concealment = gives the ability to hide)

[Katisha]

Ok, got the Mistmail, and this stuff is cool. Just for RP effects.
.
Picture this: Party of adventurers gather outside the suspects door. The intention is to scare him away from doing something, to get him to leave town. The rogue checks the door for traps, finds an alarm and removes it, unlocks door, and steps to the back of the party. The Bard, in misty Mistmail steps to the door and, as the cleric swings open the door, steps into the room. Swirling the cape with the continual flame spell on the lining around to her back so the "flames" swirl up around her, she pulls her whip that bursts into flame (Hellfire). Looking at the target sitting on the bed, she points the whip and says "So, do we talk? or do we move on to other options?" Target sees a Cheliaxian woman, clothed in fire & smoke, with a flaming whip that is scorching the carpet. Intimadate check? - ah, can I take 10?

[Gwen Smith]

Minor point of clarification:

A "knee-jerk reaction" has nothing to do with "being a jerk". It refers to the reflex response the doctor gets when he taps your knee with the mallet. Saying a GM has a "knee-jerk reaction" means they have an immediate "gut feeling" kind of response. That gut feeling could be good, bad, or indifferent to the player.

You're only a jerk if you stubbornly cling to your initial knee-jerk reaction even after everyone else has clearly demonstrated you were wrong. :-)

[Katisha]

Ok, now I have to re-visit this thread and get a slightly different response. My Harlot with the Mistmail had the continual flame on her cloak dispelled. (went over after the fight and kicked the BBE body. "Trying to kill me I can except, but MESS WITH MY WARDROBE!!!").
.
So now i got the spell re-cast, but this time it cast on the Mistmail... so, when it turns into mist - what happens to the continual flame spell? does the mist "flame"?

[kinevon]

Katisha wrote:

Ok, now I have to re-visit this thread and get a slightly different response. My Harlot with the Mistmail had the continual flame on her cloak dispelled. (went over after the fight and kicked the BBE body. "Trying to kill me I can except, but MESS WITH MY WARDROBE!!!").

.
So now i got the spell re-cast, but this time it cast on the Mistmail... so, when it turns into mist - what happens to the continual flame spell? does the mist "flame"?

I think this is somethign that actually belongs in the regular Pathfinder Rules Questions forum, rather than PFS.

Oh, and it should be "accept" instead of "except". ;)

[nosig]

kinevon wrote:

Katisha wrote:

Ok, now I have to re-visit this thread and get a slightly different response. My Harlot with the Mistmail had the continual flame on her cloak dispelled. (went over after the fight and kicked the BBE body. "Trying to kill me I can except, but MESS WITH MY WARDROBE!!!").

.
So now i got the spell re-cast, but this time it cast on the Mistmail... so, when it turns into mist - what happens to the continual flame spell? does the mist "flame"?

I think this is somethign that actually belongs in the regular Pathfinder Rules Questions forum, rather than PFS.

Oh, and it should be "accept" instead of "except". ;)

yeah, I guess so. I didn't think ahead, just remembered that I had this thread already and it's for a PFS character.... but I'll see about opening something over on the rules board about it.

Sorry for the trouble folks.

[Jiggy]

I personally like the idea of flaming mist surrounding a character's body. That sounds awesome. :D

[Katisha]

Jiggy wrote:

I personally like the idea of flaming mist surrounding a character's body. That sounds awesome. :D

add in that she uses a flaming whip (Trait: Hellfire) and it's one Impressive Picture!

[Katisha]

Ah, well, this just got nerfed in errata.

Duration is now 3 minutes, one time per day...

So most of the time it's going to be just regular +1 Chain Shirt armor... sigh.

[FLite]

An awful lot of my characters never get more than a +1 chain shirt....

[Katisha]

Jared Thaler wrote:

An awful lot of my characters never get more than a +1 chain shirt....

Most of mine go with special materials... 'cause it looks prettier! That mithril chain shirt might not even be enchanted, it just looks kewl!

[James Risner]

With the hat of disguise and ring of invisibility FAQ, I think it is reasonable to expect this to get the 3 min clarification considering it was limited to 1/day.