Help Me Mess With My Party


Advice

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

If you are in my Legacy of Fire game, which is ran by my friend Carl, please do not read this. Carl, you can totally read this.

Character Background:

I play a ratfolk witch named Cosimo from Katapesh who is a Duskwalker agent. He is true neutral, which I play pretty loose and close to the chest. He isn't against good actions, and in fact he is very community minded and does what he feels is the best for his community. He also has no problem with developing relationships with evil characters, and has even bought one a slave to seal an alliance. The party doesn't trust him though, and for good reason. While he views his party as friends, they are not part of his ratfolk community and he would have no problem leaving them to die if things become overwhelming. Indeed, he would return with sufficent power to clear the area and loot the bodies. He is a merchant, having strong ties to the Duskwalkers and the Nightstalls. He is also a family man and ratfolk community leader. His family is quite large, and he has been groomed from birth to be one of the main leaders of the community due to his white fur.

He is also a cultist of Sivanah, goddess of illusion, mystery, and reflections. The players in my group are completely unaware of this. They think he is a follower of Abadar and few of them suspect that he follows another god, but they think the most likely deity is Nethys. He has cast a few illusions, as his patron is Shadows, and has actually used unholy symbols of a few gods to gain the trust of some enemies. My GM and I have talked a little bit about his choice of deity, and what goals she might have, but for right now my character isn't clear why she wants him to adventure with a bunch of yahoos, or even what her motives for anything are. This is just fine with me because that is how the goddess is written anyway.

The Party:

Gnoll Paladin of Sarenrae - He is a runt and has white fur. He fights between his savage instincts and his proper upbringing. My character views him as a troublesome tool. If anyone in the party is going to end up stabbing Cosimo it is this guy. This would be due to the fact that the paladin has made it clear that he will be kill anything he thinks is a threat. He can be controlled so long his perception of reality is kept skewed. In one incident Cosimo lied about some writing on the wall just so the paladin didn't kill all the followers of Rovagug before questions could be asked.

Human Magus - This character is naive and inexperienced. He has a vendetta against slavers because of his brother being sold off so long ago. While he is book smarts, he doesn't have the common sense to ask certain questions or connect certain dots. This can be dangerous though, as he could end up making the wrong assumptions and make wasteful decisions. This hasn't happened yet, and frankly if it lead to the character's death Cosimo would stand idly by and let it happen. The magus is probably the easiest to manipulate, as he leaves his motivations out in the open and very agreeable to any reasonable request or idea.

Human Gunslinger - While she is dangerous, having the highest kill count of the group (I keep detailed notes!) she is also very motivated by money, treasure, and glory. She isn't as easy to manipulate though, as she possibly has the highest amount of common sense in the group and is very strong headed. She can be convinced to enter a room if there is gold inside, but she will do so cautiously and with an eye out for traps.

Half-elf Druid - He is an odd ball to say the least. He sort of sticks to himself and follows the group like a lost puppy. He is constantly going off on tangents, like how awesome it would be have a bakery in a room full of lava, and is very much the stoner dude type of personality. His chaotic behavior does allow him to ignore Cosimo's shenanigans, but it also prevents him from being easily taken advantage of. Out of everyone, Cosimo probably trusts him the most, mostly because there is dependability behind the crazy and juvenile behavior.

Why the Party Doesn't Trust My Character:

- He likes to go off on his own. While I know this is dangerous, it is often just to scout out gain information. The first few times this was done the party loudly protested, but now they wait patiently.
- He clearly is hiding something. He is actually hiding lots of somethings, and every so often "accidentally" allows one of the party members to find one out.
- People keep calling him different names. NPCs that none of the party members have ever seen before keep talking to him as if they were old friends, and at least one of them tricked the group into assulting the House of the Beast. There is an in game reason for this, but if you haven't played LoF, I won't ruin anything for you by explaining it.
- He never sleeps. He has a ring of sustenance and uses the extra time to craft, scribe scrolls, or write letters home. Even never tells anyone what he is actually doing and he has made it a point to do so privately.
- He befriends clearly evil people and insists the party give them respect.
- He has made it clear he is okay with slavery.
- He has made it clear he is okay with selling the eggs of intelligent monsters.
- He doesn't kill his targeted foes, he screws them over so badly that death would be merciful.
- He claims to worship one god but has done things that suggest he worships another.
- He has made it clear that if things go sideways he is running and leaving the party to die.

My group played without me while I was at GenCon and had a very candid and open discussion about my character. A few interesting things came up that the GM told me about. Of course, they don't trust my PC, and it was seriously suggested that he could possibly be a different race and just disguised as a ratfolk. They also agreed that at least one member of the party should be awake while he is crafting at night.

So my question here is: How can I further mess with my party that won't end up in disaster? I would like to do something long term, something that won't see the punchline until near the end of the game. I have the patience for it, and I am willing to put some extra work into the game to do it.

One thing that I want to do is take the Leadership feat and use the cohort and followers to help set things up. We are currently in the last part of Book 2, and I have some suspicions as where the AP goes. I don't think I will have much opportunity to set anything up in Katapesh, and that things will have to follow the party. I also want this to be epic but I don't want to steal the campaign and make it about my character. I want everyone to walk away to thinking good, friendly thoughts.

The Cohort is Planned To Be...:

A veiled illusionist that impersonates Cosimo and several of the followers. This would actually be Cosimo's wife, who the party should believe is staying home to raise the kids. By the end of it all, the party should be a bit unclear on who the cohort really is.

So, I know that was a great deal of information, but what are your thoughts? How can I mess with my party in a huge, mind blowing way that won't easily be forgotten?


omg, you have to pretend you're another race.

Something that would make them go AMAWGAD when they think they found out.
Like a curious dragon,(not evil of course because of the palla)
or something form another plane.

They have already gotten a little paranoind about this so profit on it :P

I think it could be great fun

just imagine making them think you're the son/avatar/dragon/something that has a great agenda to see how mortals operate, or maybe you're trying to find a worthy band of adventures for a mission

Sovereign Court

Have you tried having conversations with people that don't actually exist? Just to make the party think you're talking to Invisible people? Illusions could help you make the conversation two-sided I suppose, although this requires some GM collaboration to pull it off (you have him deliver the illusion's lines).


I think some sort of forgery of official documents/title etc would be quite funny.

If you have sleight of hand it'd be great if you planted some false documents pertaining to a 'half celestial half ratfolk prophet' who matched your description?

Maybe even make the Paladin think your some sort of divine being of Sarenrae come to cleanse the darkness.


Don't forget that you have another character to use in your schemes. Your familiar. Depending on what type of creature it is you can have it do a lot of things to help you mess with the others.
It might be fun (but a little dangerous) to try to make them believe that you are under its control, possibly possessed.

Sovereign Court

Set up a cult in secret of which you are a major prophet (but only when in a particular guise; cultists don't normally recognize you on the street). Manipulate events so that this cult becomes significant and draws the attention of the other players; they should meet cultists now and then. Not an evil cult, but a bit secretive; "you have to be a sixth circle initiate to know this or that" kind of stuff.

Let things run their course until the point where the cult becomes more central to the plot, then start manipulating it to party benefit; let them wonder how you managed it.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Great ideas!

I forgot to mention that Cosimo has a Hat of Disguise and plans on upgrading it into a Hat of Alter Self. The party might not be aware of the item, and Cosimo has only used it outside of the view. This will totally help him pull off the, "He really is another race!"

I did in deed forget to mention the familiar. It is a little dinosaur, the compy to be exact, and Cosimo used it to deliver a coup de grace to an unconscious enemy the rest of the party wanted to keep alive. I do in deed plan on using him in my plans.

I like to conversations with illusions idea. I am going to have to do that one.

The cult idea will probably happen anyway. With the leadership feat, the heavy use of disguises, and the fact that he follows a cult deity, it only makes sense that he either form a cult or take one over. My GM is going to have do a little extra work though, and I will have to leave that up to him.

Good ideas all around. Any more?

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

We just ended part two and are heading back to Katapesh. My GM promises that he is going to give everyone a secret mission to complete. This only makes things more cool and means my character is going to try and figure out what everyone is trying to do and mess with their plans.

More on that when I have the details.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Once you've got a cult, organize a schism and back both sides.

The Hat of Disguise is a bit awkward, I'd prefer an object you never have to take off, like a ring. Then, seduce one of the other PCs. (Have the GM play for you so that the other players won't know it was you.) Then occasionally drop comments that indicate you've got intimate knowledge.

Bonus points if you've set up dates (in secret) for multiple PCs so that they all suspect you slept with at least one of them, but they're not sure which one.

Frame a PC for good deeds they didn't commit; at some point the townsfolk will be really nice to them, and they'll be looking for the other shoe to drop.


CalebTGordan wrote:
While he views his party as friends, they are not part of his ratfolk community and he would have no problem leaving them to die if things become overwhelming.

and...

CalebTGordan wrote:
I want everyone to walk away to thinking good, friendly thoughts.

and...

CalebTGordan wrote:
How can I mess with my party in a huge, mind blowing way that won't easily be forgotten?

I find these 3 things in conflict with each other. In fact, I'm dealing with a player in my current group who is very disruptive currently. I'm posting about it over here. So I would start by saying that I personally disapprove of anyone who is trying to mess with his party to cause conflict especially if that results in the death of their characters or the players not having fun. If, however, you are just doing it for entertainment value and no one is actually upset by your shenanigans, then I'm all game!

With that being said I recall a previous game where I played a ninja girl follower of Mask in Forgotten Realms in 3.x. She was on her way to becoming a Telflammar Shadow Lord if you are familiar. In our party we had a Vow of Poverty Faerie Monk who needed to donate his money to charity. My character saw no good reason for this hard earned money to go to waste. She would go ahead to the town and work with her local contacts to setup "charities" before they arrived. She would split the "donations" with her accomplices. She didn't make huge profits because the DM didn't want loot to get too unbalanced amongst the party but she still ended up quite a bit ahead. The other player never found out. I had all I could do to stifle the laughter as the DM portrayed the "charities".

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Ascalaphus wrote:

Once you've got a cult, organize a schism and back both sides.

The Hat of Disguise is a bit awkward, I'd prefer an object you never have to take off, like a ring. Then, seduce one of the other PCs. (Have the GM play for you so that the other players won't know it was you.) Then occasionally drop comments that indicate you've got intimate knowledge.

Bonus points if you've set up dates (in secret) for multiple PCs so that they all suspect you slept with at least one of them, but they're not sure which one.

Frame a PC for good deeds they didn't commit; at some point the townsfolk will be really nice to them, and they'll be looking for the other shoe to drop.

I am not going have my character seduce and sleep with the other party members. I might pay someone to do so, but dating, seducing, and sleeping with them personally isn't something I am willing to do. It is a bit out of character.

Like I said though, paying someone to do that so that I can gain information is another matter. I have no problem with setting that up, and for two of the party members it would be appropriate and doable. It would be a little hard to pull it off with the gnoll paladin and the druid.

@Lune
This is a game with a group I have been involved with for almost three years and everyone is really good friends. If I felt I was starting to cross a line, I would stop and rethink my strategy. The GM is also on board with this and I am running everything serious by him first. If he feels something is going too far, he has said he would put a stop to it.

This is like you said, just for entertainment value and so that everyone can walk away laughing and joyfully talking about it. I don't plan on killing anyone, or even seriously harming them. I might try and cause the paladin to lose his paladinhood, but only if doing so would further the story, we had a way for him to atone, and it was done in a way the paladin's player could laugh at.

Sovereign Court

*shrug* I'm just throwing out ideas here, stuff that would have people squirming. I've threatened the dwarf in my party that I have Alter Self and that before he sleeps with anyone, he should make sure he knows it's not me messing with him. It was fun watching him think about that.

Of course, just because you didn't have sex with them, is no reason to let them be certain it wasn't you. Like I said, them wondering about it is better than the actual fact that it did or didn't happen.

Lune's story about Charity donations is a good one. I've read about someone who bought all the inns in secret, so that every time the party stayed at an inn, the proceeds came back to him.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Cosimo is a merchant, it wouldn't be hard to point them towards reputable buisnesses that he just happened to own anyway. They wouldn't need to know about who owns them of course.

I just took the Leadership feat. The GM agreed to OK it once I told them that 1) The cohort wasn't built for combat and would rarely be used for it and 2) The followers were to never, ever participate in combat. He admitted that the top two things on his hate list was the Leadership feat and summoning, but that the dislike was mostly due to their uses in combat.

This creates a fun little project for me. I now can stat up the cohort and followers, and I am using the following guidelines:
- The cohort uses the Heroic NPC ability scores.
- The cohort has the Heroic NPC amount of wealth.
- The followers use the Basic NPC stats and wealth.
- No one is to be built for combat.
- Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Witch, and Wizard are acceptable classes for followers. Most of the followers should still be NPC classes though.
- Everyone (or almost everyone,) is ratfolk.

I have the cohort down, so I don't really need advice there. She is going to be Cosimo's wife, who the party knows about already, but I won't be telling anyone but the GM that it is her. In fact, if I can keep it from the party, all the better. She will be an illusionist, and will be taking the Veiled Illusionist prestige class. She will be used mostly to help set up plans, recon, and just general fun.

The followers are a little tricky. They are useful for things like running messages, carrying loot, setting up camp, and doing errands. It would be difficult to use them for anything sneaky because everyone is maxing out their Perception and Sense Motive skills. I have pretty firm ideas already on what to use them for, but I want to hear what everyone else suggests just in case I didn't think of something cool.

Sovereign Court

The followers don't actually have to be with the party. Some of them could be shopkeepers, beggars, merchants, spies...

It's probably a good idea to have some of the followers with the party, otherwise the other players will be certain they're somewhere else. But if you remain vague on just how high your Leadership score is...

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

I like that. I could take it further by having several groups of followers that do the same thing but are never all in sight at the same time. Add on the "they all look alike to me," situation and have my character rarely refer to them by name in front of the party and no one should be able to properly guess the leadership score.

Also, when asked how many followers there are, the answer can always be, "enough for me needs."


Right now, I have nothing of great value to add, I just wanted to inform you all that this thread has given me many lol's.

Also, dot

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Glade to hear that. I will keep people updated on how things go.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Update:
Things took an ugly and nasty turn. My GM friend might want to post and fill in more details but here is what happened.

There was a particular scroll that the party found. We honestly didn't think much of it, but I knew it was very important and made sure to have it securely on my person. There were several NPCs after it any way, but the party wasn't aware of that, nor were they aware of how important it was until the magus detected magic on it and passed out.

Then one of the NPCs showed up and asked Cosimo for it, just Cosimo. The party demanded that the scroll be handed over, but I knew that was a bad idea. In the hands of the other party members the NPC could just grab it, but the party also didn't know that.

I ended up being out done in the argument, I felt preasured and I ended up issuing an ultimatum. That was a huge mistake, as the party immediately turned hostile against my character, and blind with paranoia and fear they attacked. I tried to escape, failed, and Cosimo ended up hog tied and unconscious for a couple of days. They made sure to keep beating him just to keep him unconscious.

They couldn't find the scroll though because I was able to hide if before my character was caught.

They then dragged him into an empty room, kept him tied up and interrogated him.

The gunslinger threatened to sell him into slavery. I asked that my character be released. She threatened to harm him, and I purposefully pushed back by asking the paladin when he expected to lose his gods favor and why he hadn't already.

The GM stepped in and used NPCs to put a stop to the interrogation. He also used the NPCs to keep the party together, because the group was insisting that I play another character. The problem was, according to my GM, my character was so ingrained into the story that it would have been everyone else who had to reroll characters. He ended having a very powerful NPC demand the party work together, and said Cosimo was to keep the scroll. The GM also laid into the group and reproved them, but it didn't seem like the group took it to heart.

The good news, I can build on this. The bad news is that things are unclear if the group can even work together. The GM has said that everyone is going to have major secret plots just like Cosimo's, so I can only hope things go well if we get that far.

If things can be smoothed over, the party can be convinced they were being jerks, and that Cosimo was actually trying to keep them safe, I might actually be able to move back into messing with them. I still want to do it, but now I have to find a balance.

Anyway. Things might have hit bottom, but I get to keep my character and I can build on this.

More to come once we know if the game continues.


This is why 'messing' with the rest of the group is a bad idea. Don't lose friendships over this.


CalebTGordan, I did warn you. Your current situation now seems even more like my current situation. The difference is that I was one of the players on the receiving end of the "messing with". While it might be fun for you it is important that you understand that you could be having fun at the expense of someone else'. I appreciate that you thought it was all fun and games before but now hopefully you see the damage that your actions can cause.

And blope is correct, this could carry over outside of the game. In fact, I think it is likely. If you aren't playing together with your friends anymore you are going to see them less. They are going to resent you for ruining (from their perspective) their good time.

I would love to hear from your GM just to get a neutral opinion of what transpired. Right now my best advice would be to come clean with the players OOC. Make sure that before you do so that you discuss with your DM and the other players that this is all OOC knowledge and that it is expected that the players do not metagame and allow their characters to act upon information that they do not know. They need to understand your motivations as a PLAYER for doing what you have done. This is very important at this point so that it doesn't allow IC drama to spill out into OOC problems.

You need to preserve your friendships at this point. So long as you are all mature players the OOC knowledge shouldn't change the game play either. You do not have to tell them about your future shenanigans or even share with them everything you have done in the past. Just the things that are pertinent to the issue at hand. If they all have secret agendas as your DM claims they do/will then they should understand. Especially if none of the agendas directly conflicts with one another. If they do then it sounds more like the DM is instigating inter party conflict but I doubt that is the case.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Friendships haven't been lost yet. Unfortunately the messing with the party has become part of the plot, so it will continue. I just need to find a balance, and figure out how convince them that what I am doing will actually make the game more fun in the end.

To be honest, while I am hurt over how things happened, I am excited to learn how to pull off covert actions that the rest of the party isn't aware of. There has been a shift that the blow up caused that has made goals and the purpose for the secrets clearer. Before, I was just enjoying messing around behind the scenes and having all these secrets. Now I understand how serious this whole thing is and have a much more clear goal and reason to keep secrets.

The title should honestly change to, "Help Me Keep My Party From Killing Me and Ruining the Game." Any way that can be done?


Quote:
Friendships haven't been lost yet. Unfortunately the messing with the party has become part of the plot, so it will continue. I just need to find a balance, and figure out how convince them that what I am doing will actually make the game more fun in the end.

Ok, I want you to see what you did right there. First, you said "unfortunately" and I don't think that anyone here is going to believe that you think that it is unfortunate when clearly this is something that you enjoy. Second, you said that you need to convince them (the players, not the characters) that what you are doing will make the game more fun. That is partly what I suggested. The part about talking to the players, that is. But you need to stop trying to convince them of anything. They aren't having fun anymore, CalebTGordan! You are ruining the game for them and threatening your friendship.

Look, I'm trying to be nice about it but I think I just need to be blunt here. You are being a jerk. The game is supposed to be fun for everyone who is playing it - DM included. You tell me who is having fun with the current climate of the game that you are causing. Because from my perspective here it doesn't look like that is anyone but you... and now, finally, that you realize that your actions may put a stop to your own fun you are actually looking to change how you play? This should have happened before now.

Your actions now are likely to not just determine whether and how your game continues but whether and how your friendships continue. I hope you make the right decision and realize that your play style is destructive. I'm not sure how much more blunt I can be or what more obvious of actions need to happen for you to see this. It really is beginning to seem like you are being purposefully ignorant of the issues you are causing.


blope wrote:
This is why 'messing' with the rest of the group is a bad idea. Don't lose friendships over this.

Exactly.

OP, STOP DOING THIS! This is not the hallmark of a mature player. Your rep as a player is more important than you think.

Please follow our advice and play as a member of the party.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Okay, guys you need to wait for my GM to comment. I didn't give full details and I honestly don't have them yet. You are all commenting based on a lack of information. The game isn't over. We are still still friends. I haven't actually STARTED to mess with anyone in the group. I have been a member of the party, I have been playing nice, and I haven't done anything to bring harm upon anyone.

Stop making assumptions guys. I already feel bullied because of what happened, I don't need crap from you as well. Please just wait until I can give you more more details, as I need to talk to people first and find the time to post it all.

I am not the villain here. There really isn't one in this story.

@Lune: I read your story and understand where you are coming from but this is different. Trust me. Wait until I can post everything. I made a mistake of posting what I did today, and it really didn't paint the best and accurate picture of what is going on. I am not being a jerk here. If anything I am being misunderstood.

@DrDeth: You are not helping. I haven't actually started to mess with anyone.

To everyone else, I might just start a new discussion as I clearly made a mistake of calling it "messing with the party." I don't want harm, screw, destroy, kill, steal from, sleep with, or beat up anyone in my party. I want to take actions covertly behind the scenes that build up the story and plot of the game. I want the party to only see the tip of the iceberg of these activities and try to figure out what is going on. I want everyone at the table to cry out "That was AWESOME!" when what was going on was revealed.

My GM is supporting me. He is actually the reason I made the goals and decisions that I have. He has been handing me secret plot elements and building upon them in ways only I and my character understand, asking that I keep those elements hidden.

The blow up wasn't caused be my "messing" with my party. It was caused because my party made crazy assumptions, flew off the rails, and started acting on paranoia and fear.

So, one last time here, please stop assuming I am the villain here. There isn't one.


Maybe I do have it wrong but it doesn't seem that way with your party being all upset at you. It also seems like this is beginning to carry over outside of the game. I think that there has been a misunderstanding but I don't think that rests in only the hands of the other players. I think you may not be understanding where they are coming from.

I'll try to keep an open mind and I'll wait for your DM to post. I'm interested. If you do start a different thread please post here and link to the other thread. I don't want to miss it.

One last thing though... if your party did react with paranoia and fear I'm sure that their reasons for acting that way were justified. I'm also sure that this had something to do with your character's past actions. What you are asking us all to believe right now is that YOU are the one with the level head and EVERYONE ELSE is just crazy and out to get you. If you ask me that sounds more diluted than the rest of the party being suspicious and paranoid of your secretive character's sub plots. At some point you need to realize that your actions have affected theirs.


Well, I guess it's time for me to step in.

Hi, my name is Carl, and I'm CalebTGordan's GM.
I should come right out and say that I'm at least partially to blame for the situation that occurred during our last gaming session; though some of the people on this forum seem to find it hard to believe, CalebTGordan has been running everything he has planned for his character by me ahead of time---and I have been, in turn, giving him suggestions as to things which he should try, and as to which things he has planned will and will not work.
CalebTGordan is probably the most knowledgeable and experienced player I know, and it goes without saying that I trust him completely both in and out of game. Because of that, I have been using him to help me in directing the plot of the campaign---entrusting him with information and responsibilities beyond what the other players are expected to handle. Again, I did this because I trust him---trust him to keep player knowledge and character knowledge separate; trust him to sacrifice what he might want for the good of the game. I know that he would never willingly do anything to jeopardize a friendship.

Of course, anyone can make mistakes.

That being said, the very minor mistake that CalebTGordan (as Cosimo) made in NO WAY justified the actions of the other players. In spite of what some of you may believe, He was in no way being a jerk; perhaps his character had some attitude, but it was completely in character for him to behave as such, and the other party members presented little reason for him to do otherwise. I was genuinely shocked at the lengths to which the other players stooped---particularly the Paladin. Within the space of a few minutes, there was a sharp turnaround as two of the players completely ganged up on another, and once they had turned down that path, nothing that was said or done gave any indication of swaying them from the unspoken consensus they had clearly reached.

Probably the most disturbing part of the whole scenario was that for a portion of the session, CalebTGordan actually handed control of his character over to me; since it was made fairly clear that this was done for plot reasons, the fact that the other players not only continued but dramatically escalated their behavior indicated that they not only didn't trust CalebTGordan---they also didn't trust ME as a GM.
If a player starts causing a problem, it's the job of the GM to try and fix it as soon as possible. I assume that any player worth his salt knows and expects this. As has been pointed out, we've been playing with mostly the same group for a long time now, and given my history with these players (particularly my penchant for painstakingly setting up mind-bending plot reveals), I would expect them to have a certain faith that I'm not jerking them around for no reason (and that I won't let legitimate character-driven decisions cause them to "lose").
So, the fact that neither player caught the cue to back off when I stepped in the first time bothered me a bit---but I let it slide, since they were just roleplaying their characters.

Except that they really weren't. Not both of them, at least.

If anybody had justification for what was done, it was the Gunslinger. I'll admit that certain aspects of her character background made it more likely to act the was she did. I certainly didn't anticipate it, but in hindsight I probably should've.
However, the Paladin of the party stepped far outside the bounds of appropriate behavior---I can honestly say that a Lawful Good character (and a paladin, especially) had no right or reason to behave the way he did. The worst part about it was that the player seemed to see nothing wrong with his actions, even when the specifics were pointed out to him---there were even a number of off-color and even sadistic comments made (passed off afterward as being out-of-character or "jokes") which did absolutely nothing to alleviate my concerns over the growing tension in the room.

I believe it has been said before, but I'll say it again: the characters had no real evidence to hold against Cosimo; they had suspicions, yes, but ones based mostly on drastic (and possibly willful) misinterpretation of in-game events. No one tried very hard to find out any real information; lack of evidence against Cosimo was interpreted as evidence in itself, a rather slippery slope. Players were also making a great many decisions based on things they personally could observe---primarily the passing of notes and out-of room conversations. However, instead of trying to ask me about things I was clearly influencing, they attacked another player---another player who, honestly, had only a slightly better understanding of what was going on than anyone else did, but who was willing to go out on a limb because of trust.

I could go on, but I don't think it will be very productive; suffice it to say, the actions (or inaction) of every player and character in our last session are going to have consequences. That includes myself. I don't believe there was any way anyone could have foreseen what happened; some forum members here may feel otherwise, but YOU WEREN'T THERE. This was an important learning experience for me, and reminded me how much I still have to learn. In the end, I don't think that any lasting harm was done; there won't be any friendships threatened here---or if there are, it won't be on CalebTGordan's head. The one thing I can say for certain is that I probably put too much weight on one player's head---I did it because it was easy for me, and because I didn't anticipate it causing any problems. Apparently, I was wrong, and everybody suffered for it. Still, there are a lot of possible positive building blocks which can be taken from this, and a lot of character development which will now be pushed to the forefront. If nothing else, this is good to have been gotten out of the way, because I can't imagine having a worse session, so there's nowhere to go but up.

If any of you here feel the inclination to further criticize CalebTGordan, I suggest you reconsider, and leave such matters to the appropriate authority (in this case: ME), and direct any concerns to such.

Thank you.


Hm. Do you think that it might be possible that the other players saw the relationship that you had with Caleb and thought that the talk going on behind their backs (which was really just discussing plots for the game) were actually Cosimo plotting against his party? Because that is the way that it seems to me. I think we are still missing part of the story here. Why were they suspicious of Cosimo? I mean from what has been described here the character doesn't seem like a very trustworthy sorta guy to begin with. It really seems in character for the others to be so suspicious of him.

And then you have to consider what the other players are seeing happening out of character. I can get behind expecting players to not use OOC info in character. However, that has it's logical limits too. If they see a lot of plotting going on behind their backs (or suspected plotting) they are going to get suspicious as players. If a player is suspicious and their character is suspicious then well... you have a perfect storm for inter party conflict just like what happened.

If the paladin felt betrayed by someone he had considered a team mate then I can't blame him for reacting to that perceived betrayal. I think what you might want to focus on is why that player/character felt betrayed to begin with. I assume that this player is like me and doesn't want to be in a party with someone who doesn't play nice with the party. This isn't fun for this player. Obviously this has to be true or the player wouldn't have made his character lash out against this perceived threat. And now that they are seeing you completely take Caleb's side and tell them they are clearly in the wrong I don't think that will make the situation better.

At this point I still think we are missing some information. I'm not trying to place blame to make people feel bad. However, there seems like there is blame to be placed. The purpose of it here now though is to mend the rift that has been creation. This being the case I stand by my previous suggestion.


Lune, while I can see your point, I want to reiterate that I am generally very open as a GM about what I do. I go to great lengths to let the players know that they can trust me, and that I won't try to trick them or cause them to fail. So, from my point of view, the simple act of allowing the other players to know that there was confidential communication going on should have been enough for them to know that they didn't have to worry. Because if I really was plotting with another player to f#$@ with them, they would never, ever know until it was too late. It would have been all too easy to keep everything completely hidden---in a previous campaign with this same group, the GM at the time (the guy currently playing the Paladin) did exactly that, communicating with another player outside game sessions to plot that player's character turning on the party at a crucial moment. Everyone was completely taken aback then, because there was no visible evidence that anything out of the ordinary was going on.

That wasn't the case here.

As Cosimo pointed out to his teammates in-character, he had never actually done anything that wasn't to the benefit of the party; he had, on the contrary, put himself at considerable risk of loss of life in order to help the other party members.
While the Gunslinger and Paladin expressed concerns that Cosimo might be being influenced by some evil force, they found no evidence of that; furthermore, their proposed solution was having Caleb roll a new character; the Paladin went so far as to say (though it wasn't clear whether it was in or out of character) that he "saw no real reason to continue adventuring with Cosimo," and this sentiment seemed to be echoed by other players.

I don't know about you, but telling someone that they should "be prepared to roll a new character" is not a call that players should be making---that is strictly a GM call in my world, but they overstepped that boundary without consulting me first.

Again, I should shoulder the brunt of the blame, since I chose to let the other players know that there was something secret going on.


Also, regarding Cosimo's behavior, it is worth mentioning that, early in the campaign (i.e. through much of Book 1) Cosimo did make small threats and derogatory comments toward other player characters. However, after working with the other characters, growing to trust them (and after a little talking-to from me to Caleb about toning down the negative aspects of his character) he has completely stopped that sort of behavior; since it was an important aspect of his character, it was also wholly appropriate at the time, given his inherent distrust of people outside the Ratfolk community. Furthermore, Caleb had apologized to the group about the way his character had been behaving, explained his reasons for doing so, and had assured them that it was at an end.
Even if it could be justified that some of the other characters might still not trust Cosimo (in fact, the Gunslinger freely admitted---in character---that she didn't really trust anyone in the party), I expected that the other players would trust Caleb enough to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point.


Lune wrote:
CalebTGordan wrote:
While he views his party as friends, they are not part of his ratfolk community and he would have no problem leaving them to die if things become overwhelming.

and...

CalebTGordan wrote:
I want everyone to walk away to thinking good, friendly thoughts.

and...

CalebTGordan wrote:
How can I mess with my party in a huge, mind blowing way that won't easily be forgotten?
I find these 3 things in conflict with each other. In fact, I'm dealing with a player in my current group who is very disruptive currently. I'm posting about it over here. So I would start by saying that I personally disapprove of anyone who is trying to mess with his party to cause conflict

This.


sabbacc108: Ok, I think we need to cover a few things here. First of all, I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am simply working off information that was posted here in the thread. If you haven't yet read it all I would suggest doing so. As gustavo iglesias just pointed out there have been some contrary statements of biblical proportions made like the one he quoted above. That first quoted statement is particularly concerning and I find myself wondering what his party would think if they knew Cosimo's opinion of them. I can't help but thinking they wouldn't be too happy about that. I can't say that I'd blame them. From their actions I wonder if they already have an inkling of that opinion.

Also, you need to realize that prior to you posting here that we only had Caleb's side of the story to base any opinion on. We are happy to help players here but when there is a party issue and the title of the thread is "Help Me Mess With My Party" ...well, the first thing we are going to assume is that the issue is with the person messing with the party. So far, honestly, I am not entirely convinced that this still is not the case.

And lastly, you said that you have invested a lot of trust in Caleb by giving him insider knowledge about the plot and allowing him to work on things that are typically DM only. The other players do not have this advantage. They know this. They know that you know this. They could be jealous of this. Well, "jealous" might not be the correct word. But if they see you entrusting one player with this sort of knowledge but they do not get the same treatment this is likely to cause a rift in your group.

I guess what we want to know is what the issue is that the players have that lead to their level of distrust. You tell us. Why do you think they feel this way?

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

I can answer that. In fact, I will go ahead and take the time to post up a pretty detailed write up of the game so far. I am also the one who takes notes in the group and can in some games I can even tell you what was said.

First thing is first though: Let me create a new discussion for this. The original intention of this discussion is no longer valid and causes some unfortunate first impressions.

I just ask that everyone give me some time to post a lengthy history of what is going on. I will post the link here.

Thank you for your help and courtesy.


CalebTGordan wrote:


@DrDeth: You are not helping. I haven't actually started to mess with anyone.

..

"He likes to go off on his own. While I know this is dangerous, it is often just to scout out gain information. The first few times this was done the party loudly protested, but now they wait patiently.

- He clearly is hiding something. He is actually hiding lots of somethings, and every so often "accidentally" allows one of the party members to find one out.
- People keep calling him different names. NPCs that none of the party members have ever seen before keep talking to him as if they were old friends, and at least one of them tricked the group into assulting the House of the Beast. There is an in game reason for this, but if you haven't played LoF, I won't ruin anything for you by explaining it.
- He never sleeps. He has a ring of sustenance and uses the extra time to craft, scribe scrolls, or write letters home. Even never tells anyone what he is actually doing and he has made it a point to do so privately.
- He befriends clearly evil people and insists the party give them respect.
- He has made it clear he is okay with slavery.
- He has made it clear he is okay with selling the eggs of intelligent monsters.
- He doesn't kill his targeted foes, he screws them over so badly that death would be merciful.
- He claims to worship one god but has done things that suggest he worships another.
- He has made it clear that if things go sideways he is running and leaving the party to die. "

Just point #1 is being a spotlight hog. DM, you should know that this is a bad idea.

The rest are the acts of a PC's whose alignment is not square with the rest of the party. It's fine that your DM is cool with this, but really, allowing a Evil PC in with a group that includes a Paladin is never a good idea.

Next let us take this "There was a particular scroll that the party found. We honestly didn't think much of it, but I knew it was very important and made sure to have it securely on my person. There were several NPCs after it any way, but the party wasn't aware of that, nor were they aware of how important it was until the magus detected magic on it and passed out.

Then one of the NPCs showed up and asked Cosimo for it, just Cosimo. The party demanded that the scroll be handed over, but I knew that was a bad idea. In the hands of the other party members the NPC could just grab it, but the party also didn't know that.

I ended up being out done in the argument, I felt preasured and I ended up issuing an ultimatum. That was a huge mistake, as the party immediately turned hostile against my character, and blind with paranoia and fear they attacked. I tried to escape, failed, and Cosimo ended up hog tied and unconscious for a couple of days. They made sure to keep beating him just to keep him unconscious.

They couldn't find the scroll though because I was able to hide if before my character was caught."

This indicates to me that your PC stole a critical and powerful magic item from the party. Why does your PC, alone, get to keep or dispose of this magic item? Did not the entire party gain it? Of course the party went off on you.


sabbacc108 wrote:


As Cosimo pointed out to his teammates in-character, he had never actually done anything that wasn't to the benefit of the party; he had, on the contrary, put himself at considerable risk of loss of life in order to help the other party members.
While the Gunslinger and Paladin expressed concerns that Cosimo might be being influenced by some evil force, they found no evidence of that; furthermore, their proposed solution was having Caleb roll a new character; the Paladin went so far as to say (though it wasn't clear whether it was in or out of character) that he "saw no real reason to continue adventuring with Cosimo," and this sentiment seemed to be echoed by other players.

I don't know about you, but telling someone that they should "be prepared to roll a new character" is not a call that players should be making---that is strictly a GM call in my world, but they overstepped that boundary without consulting me first.

.

Did he not steal the scroll from the party?

And- why SHOULD the party be forced to have Cosimo in the party? It is up to the PC's who they adventure with, this is not a decision that the DM gets to make for them.

I know it annoys the @#$%! out of me when one player gets all secretive, goes off on his own (so I get to sit there twiddling my fingers while he has fun) and also is clearly acting (even if part of this is OOC) against the general alignment and goals of the party.

The OP came here and asked for advice. Sometimes the answers are not what he wants to get.


sabbacc108 wrote:
Also, regarding Cosimo's behavior, it is worth mentioning that, early in the campaign (i.e. through much of Book 1) Cosimo did make small threats and derogatory comments toward other player characters. However, after working with the other characters, growing to trust them (and after a little talking-to from me to Caleb about toning down the negative aspects of his character) he has completely stopped that sort of behavior; since it was an important aspect of his character, it was also wholly appropriate at the time, given his inherent distrust of people outside the Ratfolk community..

You know, I find the whole "Well, it's what my character would do" argument more than a little bogus. HE picked his character, and designed him like that. I assume you didn't force this role upon him. Thus, whatever bad stuff his character did was entirely and completely the choice of the player.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Big post here that has all of the details.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Let me lend machette to your intelectual thicket.

There are at least three things muddying the waters here.

1. "Messing with"- I interpreted Caleb's goals here to be more shenanigan in nature than disruptive to the other players. Further I took for granted that he was not asking for advice on how to ruin the game for others. Though I understand that some might think along different lines. I think quite abit of screen space has been spent explaining that Caleb's goals at least in intent were to be fun for all. Second this was encouraged by the GM so likely the intent was for a group benefit not to hurt or disrupt the game for others.

2. First impressions, secrets and cavorting with evil folks- Pathfinder is a game where betrayal is not an uncommon theme, creatures such as dopplegangers, vampires, and a host of others ner do wells roam the storied shores of the Inner Sea. As such adventurers can be a paranoid bunch. So lookng at what has been revealed Cableb is playing a nuetral character (who expects the goodies to be respectful of evil people). I think that as a player I would take note of this as suspcious and potentially threatening. Secrets from ones companions put them in the position of interpreting motives behind secrets that if they had not be secrets might never have come into question. Combine such suspicions with the first impression of being aloof and insulting might cause problems.

3. Baggage- We have all had different experiences at the game table. So groups hate group tension others love it. So groups want only action and rp light. Others expect to haggle over the price of every item purchased and interact with the lowliest barmaid and low ranking guard posted at the gate. Beware that we do not read into this situation our own fears and remembered bad experiences into the mix.

Now as for the original concept of how you might mess with the rest of the party. Well as a ratfolk you do have the one great advantage of looking to the untrained eye exactly like an evil disgusting wererat. Get some of your ratfolk allies to use alterself and such to switch between forms let them start to think maybe you have a secondary form. This could even be used to get you more in the good graces of the party. Use that hat of disguise and after they think you are an aflicted wererat, get cured, and adopt the form and personality of a now freed from the curse human. Thus throwing off suspicions and giving some understandable excuse for behavior they in the past hold against you.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
CalebTGordan wrote:

We just ended part two and are heading back to Katapesh. My GM promises that he is going to give everyone a secret mission to complete. This only makes things more cool and means my character is going to try and figure out what everyone is trying to do and mess with their plans.

More on that when I have the details.

You should use an illusion, hat of disguise, or whatever it takes to appear privately to the paladin as a glowing aasimar of sarenrae. Tell him you can only trust him, and have to stay secretly hidden because of the nature of your mission directly from the goddes, which is why you are disguised as a ratfolk.

After that, the paladin defends you to the rest of the party, but can't say why, he is just your staunch ally. Plus your most dangerous enemy is now your secret friend. :)

Whenever possible, and only he is watching, have illusions of divine messengers or other NPCs (like your wife) come to speak to you or hand you off things secretly, just make sure the illusion gives you a secret Sarenrae handshake or handsignal or wears a small holy symbol. These will cement the truth of your story.

If you can convince a bunch of your ratkin friends to get in on the secret joke, lead him to a bunch of them assembled in a secret meeting, a prayer meeting to Sarenrae, where he believes you are helping to convert them to the righteous path. You can even ask him to honor your group by leading them in a prayer, given that he is so pious a follower. I think you can see where this is going and how much fun this line of misguidance could be :)

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Gnomezrule (and they do!) and redcelt, you guys are awesome. Thank you for those posts. They help considerably in finding ideas on how to continue to deal with the party while still being secretive. They will go a long way to building trust and the plot.

Gnomezrules has it right, I play a neutral character, although he might radiate Good when acting for Vardishall (go read the wall of text I linked to find out more on that.) He also has it right that I don't intend on stealing a spotlight, ruining the game for the other players, or having my character win over all the others. My intention is to build something in the background of the game that once revealed everyone will find enjoyable and really cool. Carl (Sabbacc108) has experience doing that in a game and so I thought his game would be the best opportunity. I honestly made it clear to the group early on that I wanted to do stuff in the background that their characters are not aware of, but they seemed to have forgotten that conversation.

Silver Crusade

redcelt32 wrote:
CalebTGordan wrote:

We just ended part two and are heading back to Katapesh. My GM promises that he is going to give everyone a secret mission to complete. This only makes things more cool and means my character is going to try and figure out what everyone is trying to do and mess with their plans.

More on that when I have the details.

You should use an illusion, hat of disguise, or whatever it takes to appear privately to the paladin as a glowing aasimar of sarenrae. Tell him you can only trust him, and have to stay secretly hidden because of the nature of your mission directly from the goddes, which is why you are disguised as a ratfolk.

After that, the paladin defends you to the rest of the party, but can't say why, he is just your staunch ally. Plus your most dangerous enemy is now your secret friend. :)

Whenever possible, and only he is watching, have illusions of divine messengers or other NPCs (like your wife) come to speak to you or hand you off things secretly, just make sure the illusion gives you a secret Sarenrae handshake or handsignal or wears a small holy symbol. These will cement the truth of your story.

If you can convince a bunch of your ratkin friends to get in on the secret joke, lead him to a bunch of them assembled in a secret meeting, a prayer meeting to Sarenrae, where he believes you are helping to convert them to the righteous path. You can even ask him to honor your group by leading them in a prayer, given that he is so pious a follower. I think you can see where this is going and how much fun this line of misguidance could be :)

If this plot doesn't exactly work as planned, an bluntly if the paladin discovers the deception, he has a very good reason to smite the rat. And by "smite" I mean hitting him till he poses no further danger.


Gnomerule, I would like to respond to your points.

1. I also gave him the benefit of the doubt and helped him by giving him advice on some playful ways of messing with his party. However, in my very first posts I also cautioned him that this sort of thing might not be appreciated by his party and could cause problems. Lo and behold... it did. I'm not off on an "I told you so" crusade here, but you also can't say, "give the guy a break, its all in good fun" because the other players clearly did not think so. In the end, my original assumption was correct and perhaps he should have heeded my advice a bit closer.

2. Your right. Some campaigns are like that. Some people enjoy that play style. Caleb is clearly one of those. I also get the impression that his DM has a like mindset. That doesn't mean that the other two players at their table are a big fan of it. I think it is pretty clear that they became annoyed at having to deal with having a character like Cosimo in the party.

3. Anyone can only give advice based on their personal experience. That goes for anyone. I have unfortunately had a lot of experience dealing with a player who doesn't like to play nice with the team and has a lot of the same behavior that Caleb is manifesting in Cosimo. I think Caleb's intentions are a bit better than those I have experienced but honestly it all amounts to the same thing. Intention only goes so far and doesn't go anywhere at all if intention isn't known in the first place. Or worse yet if his intentions themselves are being called into question.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Help Me Mess With My Party All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.