I found a thread on it, but I was a couple of years old. Seems a good cleric can't summon a creature with with the fiendish template, which demons and devils don't have, but it seems like they are inherently fiendish. Has there been any sort of official ruling on this? If they can't, doesn't that nerf the higher level summoning spells for them?
Thanks!
At the bottom of the last list of monsters is this quote in the summon monster spell.
This creature is summoned with the celestial template if you are good, or the fiendish template if you are evil; you may choose either if you are neutral.
In short only neutral can summon both.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Summon monster footnote:
Cleric class:
Given that, no Archons for clerics of chaotic gods and no Azata for lawfuls.
How does this RAW handle scenarios where a goodly cleric summons evil devils/demons in order to extract information from them?
RA Salvatore's cleric Cadderly would, from time to time, summon evil creatures in order to extract information from them to use for a good purpose. FR is WotC, and not Pathfinder, but I'm wondering if this type of usage is allowed.
Last I checked, Cadderly doesn't have an official stat write-up.
He may very well be neutral.
(But then, Drizzt "officially" gets one level of barb because he "rages" but he doesn't get any level in wizard, even though he mastered his arts after attending 30 years of Sorcere, so take any "official" write-ups however you wish! :P )
How does this RAW handle scenarios where a goodly cleric summons evil devils/demons in order to extract information from them?If I remember correctly, there are ways to summon demons/devils without the use of Summon Monster. These tend to be more of a ritual, though, not simply "I need a meat shield. Summon Monster, I choose you!"
Clerics/Oracles have the Planar Ally line of spells.
Sorcerers/Wizards/Summoners/Clerics of certain domains have the Planar Binding line of spells.Clerics/Oracles/Sorcerers/Wizards all can eventually cast the Gate spell.
These are the only other spells I can think of, besides the Summon line, but they all come with the same stipulation that the spell takes on the same alignment as the summoned/called creature-alignment-type.
Writers ignore the games rules for the story. Drizzt should have been taking penalties for using two scimitars, and since he and Artemis were supposed to be virtually equal in combat he that should have made him lose, but I don't think Salvator is pulling out a DPR program to figure out who should win. The cat Drizzt uses has taken out some powerful foes, but game-wise it is no more than a celestial tiger or lion most likely.
A weird thing though.
The Magaambyan Arcanist (Paths of Prestige 34-35) requires a good alignment and gives an aura of good, yet they can prepare evil spells (see Virtuous Spells ability)!?! Maybe the rule is different for arcanists, but if they have an aura of good, then perhaps they shouldn't!
Arcane spellcasters don't have this limitation, as they don't have anything like the cleric's and druid's "Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells" restriction in their class writeups.
BTW, I statted up Cadderly for the Wizards website back when I was on the FR team (my websit's metapage about RPG characters has a link to it, but the material has moved or been deleted on the Wizards site), but I don't recall what his alignment was.
| 10 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
How does this RAW handle scenarios where a goodly cleric summons evil devils/demons in order to extract information from them?If I remember correctly, there are ways to summon demons/devils without the use of Summon Monster. These tend to be more of a ritual, though, not simply "I need a meat shield. Summon Monster, I choose you!"Clerics/Oracles have the Planar Ally line of spells.
Sorcerers/Wizards/Summoners/Clerics of certain domains have the Planar Binding line of spells.
Clerics/Oracles/Sorcerers/Wizards all can eventually cast the Gate spell.These are the only other spells I can think of, besides the Summon line, but they all come with the same stipulation that the spell takes on the same alignment as the summoned/called creature-alignment-type.
There's something that I don't quite get, though, and forgive me if I'm somehow overlooking the obvious:
The domains of Good, Evil, Chaos, and Law have subdomains associated with their related outsiders (Agathion, Archon, Azata, Daemon, Demon, Devil, Inevitable, and Protean). Each subdomain swaps out the 6th-level spell for one that calls that specific outsider.
Good-aligned deities grant planar ally to summon only Agathions, Archons, and Azatas, respectively. No problems there. However, Evil, Lawful, and Chaotic dieties only grant planar binding instead to summon only Daemons, Demons, Devils, Inevitables, and Proteans.
Unlike planar ally, planar binding requires the prior casting of a magic circle spell of the appropriate alignment directed inward in order to entrap the summoned outsider, otherwise I assume the spell fails. But a cleric is restricted to only casting spells of his deity's alignment; an evil cleric can't cast magic circle against evil because it has the "good" descriptor, a lawful cleric can't cast magic circle against law because it has a "chaotic" descriptor, and vise-versa for chaotic clerics. So functionally, most clerics can't use planar binding because their deities won't grant them magic circle spells with the descriptors of opposing alignments (true neutral deities could, but they don't grant alignment domains or outsider subdomains in the first place).
Now, as a GM I would just houserule this to say that all alignment subdomains grant planar ally for their respective outsider type, but a GM who wants to play by RAW might not be so permissive. Furthermore, in PFS games this basically means you have a useless domain slot option at cleric level 13.
I only discovered this when I created a cleric of a CN deity with the Protean subdomain and found out that I effectively couldn't cast planar binding (proteans only) because it required a prior casting of magic circle against chaos, a lawful spell.
Good catch Bob. I would think an evil cleric would also try to bind evil monsters. I guess we can FAQ your post to see if we can get some type of resolution.
Good catch Bob. I would think an evil cleric would also try to bind evil monsters. I guess we can FAQ your post to see if we can get some type of resolution.
Glad to help. I think I sort of understand the original design philosophy (good outsiders would be more naturally "helpful", while evil and neutral outsiders would need to be captured and forced to give aid), but in practice the game mechanics as they currently exist are unable to support it.
Besides, I figure that planar ally would be sufficient even for evil outsiders, as they are supposed to be agents of your deity; they might not like the cleric or being forced to serve, but they have been ordered by the god to work with their mortal servants.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Good-aligned deities grant planar ally to summon only Agathions, Archons, and Azatas, respectively. No problems there. However, Evil, Lawful, and Chaotic dieties only grant planar binding instead to summon only Daemons, Demons, Devils, Inevitables, and Proteans.
Planar ally and such are divine spells, but don't have alignment restrictions (they're on the general cleric list).
Planar binding and such are arcane spells, and don't have alignment restrictions (they're on the sor/wiz list).
Any cleric can use planar ally to conjure outsider help of an alignment friendly to the cleric.
Any sor/wiz can use planar binding to trap and force service from an outsider of any alignment.
Even if you take a specific subdomain (such as Demon), you can still use the normal cleric spell list spell planar ally to ask a demon to help you. You don't have to use the planar binding domain spell to force it to comply. Having a domain spell doesn't preclude using a nondomain spell that works differently.
SKR I think the issue is that without the protection from X spells trying to bind certain monsters, particularly the evil ones is a lot more dangerous, and the evil people(characters) have no additional protection from such creatures. Players are not normally evil, and most GM's will handwave it for NPC's, but if I am playing an evil PC I would hate to call a bone devil without being sure it can't get to me.
PS:...not arguing with SKR, just bring up what I thought the poster's main point was.
PS2:...also not asking for a rules change, just bringing it his attention..Maybe he has an idea I had not thought of.
Good-aligned deities grant planar ally to summon only Agathions, Archons, and Azatas, respectively. No problems there. However, Evil, Lawful, and Chaotic dieties only grant planar binding instead to summon only Daemons, Demons, Devils, Inevitables, and Proteans.Planar ally and such are divine spells, but don't have alignment restrictions (they're on the general cleric list).
Planar binding and such are arcane spells, and don't have alignment restrictions (they're on the sor/wiz list).
Any cleric can use planar ally to conjure outsider help of an alignment friendly to the cleric.
Any sor/wiz can use planar binding to trap and force service from an outsider of any alignment.
Even if you take a specific subdomain (such as Demon), you can still use the normal cleric spell list spell planar ally to ask a demon to help you. You don't have to use the planar binding domain spell to force it to comply. Having a domain spell doesn't preclude using a nondomain spell that works differently.
Yes, you are absolutely right in that regard. There is nothing stopping a cleric from preparing and casting planar ally to ask an outsider for aid, whether or not they have planar ally or planar binding as a domain spell. Planar ally is on the general Cleric spell list and has no alignment restrictions (your deity picks what is sent to you). Planar binding is found on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list and doesn't have any alignment restriction when cast by a non-cleric spellcaster.
But that wasn't my point. My point was that these specific subdomains (Daemon, Demon, Devil, Inevitable, and Protean) give you planar binding as a divine spell for your 6th level cleric domain spell option (or planar ally for the Agathion, Archon, and Azata subdomains), and furthermore they all specify that that this version, this specific domain spell granted, can only be used to summon that specific type of outsider. You have to take a spell that you can't use due to needing a prior spell (magic circle against Chaos/Evil/Law) that your deity's alignment restrictions prevent you from casting if you want to get the other powers and spells that these specific subdomains grant.
All of the subdomain descriptions clearly state that the version of planar ally or planar binding granted are only able to grant access to the outsider listed in the parentheses. So if I've got the Protean subdomain, the 6th level domain spell granted reads planar binding (proteans only). According to RAW, I can't substitute planar ally, and it can only be used to summon proteans (and which I can't use anyway because I need to cast magic circle against chaos beforehand to entrap the protean, and my Chaotic Neutral deity won't grant me a lawful spell).
I intend no disrespect. When I said Good-aligned and Evil-aligned deities only grant planar ally to summon those particular outsiders, I meant that only those particular subdomain versions of planar ally and planar binding lock you into summoning those specific outsiders. I wasn't clear enough, I admit it, and I apologize.
But the fact that I can prepare a regular planar ally spell to summon a protean normally doesn't change the fact that I'm saddled with a useless planar binding domain spell. Maybe it was meant to read planar ally and it was just overlooked, I don't know, but according to the PRD, it reads planar binding as a 6th level cleric domain spell. THAT's my issue.
But the monster summoned via a scroll isn't decided until the scroll is cast, so upon whose alignment would it depend? Would you need to UMD to fake an alignment not your own?
I think you could cast from the scroll, but your deity still would not like it, and would probably expect an atonement.
Clerics who have no deity do not have this problem.
RA Salvatore's cleric Cadderly would, from time to time, summon evil creatures in order to extract information from them to use for a good purpose. FR is WotC, and not Pathfinder, but I'm wondering if this type of usage is allowed.
Cadderly was originally published 1991-1995, back under AD&D 2nd Edition. Alignment spell descriptors didn't exist until D&D 3rd was released in 2000; it was perfectly rules-legal for Cadderly to cast that way when he was written.
Edition changes do funny things. Drizzt, for example, is why rangers can dual-wield, not the other way around. When he was originally published, in 1st Edition, all drow could dual-wield equal-sized weapons, while it wasn't a feature of any class. When second edition came along and drow couldn't automatically do it anymore, it became a trick rangers could do (with the right weapon proficiency in 2nd Edition, later as a built-in class weapon style in 3rd) specifically so Drizzt could keep doing it.
Cadderly, being less prominent than Drizzt, didn't have quite as much power to bend the new edition rules around him to keep his stories rules-legal, but there might be a later-published 3rd Edition/3.5 feat or prestige class specifically to retro-legalize his past behavior.
BTW, I statted up Cadderly for the Wizards website back when I was on the FR team (my websit's metapage about RPG characters has a link to it, but the material has moved or been deleted on the Wizards site), but I don't recall what his alignment was.
The AD&D 2e Heroes' Lorebook notes Cadderly's alignment as NG. If that changed in 3e, I'd be surprised.
RA Salvatore's cleric Cadderly would, from time to time, summon evil creatures in order to extract information from them to use for a good purpose. FR is WotC, and not Pathfinder, but I'm wondering if this type of usage is allowed.Cadderly was originally published 1991-1995, back under AD&D 2nd Edition. Alignment spell descriptors didn't exist until D&D 3rd was released in 2000; it was perfectly rules-legal for Cadderly to cast that way when he was written.
Edition changes do funny things. Drizzt, for example, is why rangers can dual-wield, not the other way around. When he was originally published, in 1st Edition, all drow could dual-wield equal-sized weapons, while it wasn't a feature of any class. When second edition came along and drow couldn't automatically do it anymore, it became a trick rangers could do (with the right weapon proficiency in 2nd Edition, later as a built-in class weapon style in 3rd) specifically so Drizzt could keep doing it.
Cadderly, being less prominent than Drizzt, didn't have quite as much power to bend the new edition rules around him to keep his stories rules-legal, but there might be a later-published 3rd Edition/3.5 feat or prestige class specifically to retro-legalize his past behavior.
BTW, I statted up Cadderly for the Wizards website back when I was on the FR team (my websit's metapage about RPG characters has a link to it, but the material has moved or been deleted on the Wizards site), but I don't recall what his alignment was.The AD&D 2e Heroes' Lorebook notes Cadderly's alignment as NG. If that changed in 3e, I'd be surprised.
I might have to do some research but another grognard said rangers were dualweilding before a certain drow. I came in at the end of 2nd edition for about 6 months, and did not play again until 2004/2005.
edit:The ranger came first.
I'm not sure where the ranger took shape, though I know it wasn't an imposition because of Drizzt. (Frankly, I've never read more than bits of the Drizzt series.) It was more to make them distinct and it fit with the style and image.
AD&D's first and second editions allowed you to dual-wield melee weapons and make two attacks per round, provided your off-hand weapon was smaller than your main weapon, and your attack rolls with both were made at penalties of -2 and -4 respectively. This could be offset with a good Dexterity score, which lowered your penalties based on your ranged attack modifier. Second Edition's Player's Options (Combat and Tactics and Skills and Powers, as well as the Complete Fighter's Handbook) added Weapon Style specializations and Ambidexterity, which when put together could eliminate all penalties for dual-wielding and even allow you to wield two same-length weapons at once with a second specialization, provided you could wield them with one hand.
Rangers receive bonuses for dual-wielding. The character of Drizzt Do'Urden popularized the ranger's feat, though some players mistakenly believe that rangers were modified afterwards to to emulate Drizzt's iconic style.
|
Maybe it helps that the kind of Magic Circle to be used in conjunction with Planar Binding is not specified in the latter spell description.
Thus, RAW apparently allow the evil Cleric to cast Magic Circle vs Good and use this as the prerequisite for casting Planar Binding and call (and trap) an Evil outsider.
Though it seems to make little sense at first, it could be argued that the Planar Binding spell itself traps the creature and it just needs to siphon the abjuration energy from the Circle, thus the specific type of the latter does not matter.
edit:The ranger came first.
No, it didn't.
Unearthed Arcana, published in 1985, established that drow could dual-wield equal-sized weapons:
Dark elves do not gain the combat bonuses of the surface elves with regard to sword and bow, but may fight with two weapons without penalty, provided each weapon may be easily wielded in one hand
.
Drizzt Do'Urden first appeared in The Crystal Shard, released in 1988, and in it he wielded dual scimitars.
The ability for rangers to dual-wield without off-hand penalties was introduced in the AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook, which was published in 1989. Which is to say, after Drizzt was published. The rules at this point also still required the off-hand weapon be smaller than the main weapon, even for rangers.
The Complete Fighter's Handbook, which was also published in 1989 (after Drizzt), introduced Two-Weapon Style Specialization on p.64, which specifically allowed rangers "to use weapons of equal length" for the first time.
Note, again, that both the first version of the ranger able to dual-wield without off-hand penalty, and the first introduction of Two-Weapons Style Specialization, were published after Drizzt had been published. Drizzt had been published when the First Edition rules applied, and used the 1985 rule for drow, not a rule for rangers.
Drizzt couldn't have been using a rule for rangers when he was first published, because he was published before the rule for ranger had been published. The brute verifiable facts of publication dates make it necessary that Drizzt was published using the rule for 1st edition drow, not a rule for rangers. TvTropes is, simply, wrong.
So, how do we square that with David "Zeb" Cook's recollections? Easily enough, even assuming Mr. Cook isn't misremembering. He wrote the PHB, which didn't allow rangers to do what Drizzt did — wield equal-length weapons. Since he didn't enable rangers to emulate Drizzt, he didn't need to know anything about Drizzt. It was The Complete Fighter's Handbook which let rangers do that, and that book was written by Aaron Allston and edited by Steve Winter.
Now, was Aaron Allston or Steve Winter inspired by Drizzt? Hard to prove, of course, unless one of them announced it somewhere. But it's indisputable that Drizzt could and did dual-wield scimitars before any non-drow rangers ever had the chance to in the AD&D game. The publication order is indisputably that Drizzt did it first, rangers as a class second.
IIRC, the AD&D team told Salvatore about the upcoming changes to the ranger, allowing him to create Drizzt according to the future 2E (two-weapon fighting) ranger rules. So yes, Drizzt was published first, but with the awareness that the rules were going to change and he would be following the rules.
Official Rules Response
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9rce
Cleric, Outsider Subdomains: How am I supposed to use the planar binding domain spell granted by these subdomains?
This is an error, in that there is an alignment incompatibility between the outsider subdomains and the magic circle spells needed to bind the respective types of outsiders. For example, a chaotic cleric with the Protean (Chaos) subdomain would need to cast a [lawful] magic circle against chaos domain spell to bind a chaotic protean, but her chaotic alignment prevents her from doing so (see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells in the Core Rulebook).
The solution is to allow the use of that planar binding domain spell without requiring the magic circle spell. (If the cleric wanted to create a calling diagram to improve her chances, she could enlist the aid of another caster to cast the required magic circle spell.)
This text will be updated in a future printing of the Advanced Player's Guide