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My prayers go out to the families of Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens and the others killed.


Off-Topic Discussions

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I don't watch the news, and I don't pay much attention to the electoral races, so I don't understand what you are talking about.

I type "Obama" and "Arlington" and "Memorial Day" into google and all I get is articles about how he didn't go in 2010. When I add in "2012", it leads me to articles about him speaking at Memorial Day, which, of course, was back in May, and that that, btw, also pissed off anti-Obama people.

What are you guys talking about?


LazarX wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
If Islam is indeed a religion of peace, a lot of the branches have been awful lax about circulating that memo. Indeed, many of the senior clerics seem to have missed it entirely. :(
There isn't a religion on this planet, including Atheism, which doesn't have blood on it's hands.

Jainism?

Taoism and zen buddhism are in the running too, because although they may, in some sense, condone violence as it occurs, they can't really be said to be the cause of such violence. It's more like "violence, nonviolence, it happens. Not our jurisdiction."

I mean, I'm an atheist, and I'll admit there's been violence done in the name of that ideology, sure. But I don't think you can say that about every religion. (no matter what dracula might say)


LazarX wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Emperor7 wrote:
So, the POTUS won't go to Arlington on Memorial Day but he'll gather top officials to go to the airport when the bodies of those slain in Libya are returned home? Both deserve respect.
You do realize this is turning his response to a tragic event into a no win situation, yes? The president has done lots of things I don't agree with, but let's not turn his response to something horrible into something political.
That's the whole point of hardball politics DM. If your goal is to unseat the President, you not only will take any advantage you can get, you'll try to set up as many no-win scenarios as possible.

I know e7 fairly well, I don't think anything ugly was intended. I was more pointing out an issue than calling him to task- although he could secretly be planning to have Obama over for dinner with him as the main course, and I would be none the wiser.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Evil Lincoln wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
If Islam is indeed a religion of peace, a lot of the branches have been awful lax about circulating that memo. Indeed, many of the senior clerics seem to have missed it entirely. :(
There isn't a religion on this planet, including Atheism, which doesn't have blood on it's hands.

Jainism?

Taoism and zen buddhism are in the running too, because although they may, in some sense, condone violence as it occurs, they can't really be said to be the cause of such violence. It's more like "violence, nonviolence, it happens. Not our jurisdiction."

I mean, I'm an atheist, and I'll admit there's been violence done in the name of that ideology, sure. But I don't think you can say that about every religion. (no matter what dracula might say)

The folks who tried to flood Tokyo's subways with Saran nerve gas were members of a Buddhist cult.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Dude was crazy.

Quote:
Aum Shinrikyo/Aleph is a syncretic belief system that incorporates Asahara's idiosyncratic interpretations of Yoga with facets of Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, and the writings of Nostradamus.[2] In 1992 Asahara published a book, within which he declared himself "Christ",[3] Japan's only fully enlightened master and identified with the "Lamb of God".[4] His purported mission was to take upon himself the sins of the world, and he claimed he could transfer to his followers spiritual power and ultimately take away their sins and bad karma.[5]

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

The "tradition" of the President speaking at Arlington started with Clinton, for what it's worth. There's no traditional Arlington Memorial Day speech before that. What's more, Biden gave a speech at Arlington that year, and Obama planned a speech at Abraham Lincoln National Cemetary in Chicago until weather forced him to relocate the speech to Andrews AFB.

Stop believing things you read in e-mail forwards.


LazarX wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
If Islam is indeed a religion of peace, a lot of the branches have been awful lax about circulating that memo. Indeed, many of the senior clerics seem to have missed it entirely. :(
There isn't a religion on this planet, including Atheism, which doesn't have blood on it's hands.

Jainism?

Taoism and zen buddhism are in the running too, because although they may, in some sense, condone violence as it occurs, they can't really be said to be the cause of such violence. It's more like "violence, nonviolence, it happens. Not our jurisdiction."

I mean, I'm an atheist, and I'll admit there's been violence done in the name of that ideology, sure. But I don't think you can say that about every religion. (no matter what dracula might say)

The folks who tried to flood Tokyo's subways with Saran nerve gas were members of a Buddhist cult.

I think there is an operative word in that sentence that weighs pretty heavily.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Irontruth wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The folks who tried to flood Tokyo's subways with Saran nerve gas were members of a Buddhist cult.
I think there is an operative word in that sentence that weighs pretty heavily.

I was trying to figure out when Saran™ Plastic Wrap came out with a nerve gas.

Probably just as suffocating.


Freehold DM wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Emperor7 wrote:
So, the POTUS won't go to Arlington on Memorial Day but he'll gather top officials to go to the airport when the bodies of those slain in Libya are returned home? Both deserve respect.
You do realize this is turning his response to a tragic event into a no win situation, yes? The president has done lots of things I don't agree with, but let's not turn his response to something horrible into something political.
That's the whole point of hardball politics DM. If your goal is to unseat the President, you not only will take any advantage you can get, you'll try to set up as many no-win scenarios as possible.
I know e7 fairly well, I don't think anything ugly was intended. I was more pointing out an issue than calling him to task- although he could secretly be planning to have Obama over for dinner with him as the main course, and I would be none the wiser.

Not intentionally ugly, but in hindsight a knee-jerk reaction to the coverage of Obama, Biden, H. Clinton, and Panetta at the airport. An ambassador is a big deal. I get that. I also think it proper for Obama and H. Clinton to make it a point to be there. All 4 seemed a bit much. Plus, I'm sick of speeches. By both sides.

Might also be from spending too much time in a church cemetery this year, cleaning up 1500 gravesites, and being especially saddened when I would come across a veteran's marker that was being covered by grass/overgrowth.

Apologies for the knee-jerk.


LazarX wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
If Islam is indeed a religion of peace, a lot of the branches have been awful lax about circulating that memo. Indeed, many of the senior clerics seem to have missed it entirely. :(
There isn't a religion on this planet, including Atheism, which doesn't have blood on it's hands.

Beating a stinking dead horse here, but atheism isn't a religion.

Also, you MUST make a difference between bad deeds committed by atheists/catholics/whatever group you wish to denigrate and bad deeds committed in the name of such group (or worse, with the approval of such group).

Else, you will get stuck in lovely logical fallacies, such as, "he robbed a bank and played D&D/Call of Duty, so this game leads to crime". We all know where it leads, heh ? Nowhere.

I don't know for sure if Hitler/Stalin/any monster you want happened or not to be atheist, but it's quite clear they did what they did for other motives than their (lack of) religious beliefs. Megalomania and powerlust, for instance. Even if they had been buddhists, it wouldn't occur to me to blame buddhism for their crimes.

Andoran

Hitler was secretly a Satanist, I read it in Call of Cthulu.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:
The same can be said of all religions...
True enough; it's just a matter of how many of the adherents actually follow their respective books' nastier injunctions. I don't know of any Jews who still stone their children for disobedience, for example, but the same is sadly not true of many Muslims stoning their daughters for adultery. One day the number will be near-zero, but they're not there yet.

That's the benefit of living in a modern, vastly more secularized society. It's hard to find a Christian who wants to kill a witch in the US, but they're much more common in Africa. Of course most of Africa (specifically the sub-Saharan part) is almost completely off the radar of the US media so it doesn't make headlines.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Smarnil le couard wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
If Islam is indeed a religion of peace, a lot of the branches have been awful lax about circulating that memo. Indeed, many of the senior clerics seem to have missed it entirely. :(
There isn't a religion on this planet, including Atheism, which doesn't have blood on it's hands.
Beating a stinking dead horse here, but atheism isn't a religion.

A tip for any interested reader who wishes to have a constructive conversation with an atheist: Avoid These.


Samnell wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:
The same can be said of all religions...
True enough; it's just a matter of how many of the adherents actually follow their respective books' nastier injunctions. I don't know of any Jews who still stone their children for disobedience, for example, but the same is sadly not true of many Muslims stoning their daughters for adultery. One day the number will be near-zero, but they're not there yet.
That's the benefit of living in a modern, vastly more secularized society. It's hard to find a Christian who wants to kill a witch in the US, but they're much more common in Africa. Of course most of Africa (specifically the sub-Saharan part) is almost completely off the radar of the US media so it doesn't make headlines.

And much of that is not actually coming from the theology of the religion, but from the cultural heritage of the people practicing it. Religions promote, or can be twisted to promote, all kinds of horrors. Look at Christian history. Mostly religions amplify and preserve what's already there. Both the good parts and the bad.

Shadow Lodge

thejeff wrote:
And much of that is not actually coming from the theology of the religion, but from the cultural heritage of the people practicing it. Religions promote, or can be twisted to promote, all kinds of horrors. Look at Christian history. Mostly religions amplify and preserve what's already there. Both the good parts and the bad.

Right, but christianity and islam both have a prohibition against dealing with thiIIIIIIngs from BeyoOOOOooond. Being against witchcraft is certainly a theological mandate. How far you take it is a legitimate matter of opinion and "burn them at the stake" does have a fair bit of theological backing: its not being made up whole cloth.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:
And much of that is not actually coming from the theology of the religion, but from the cultural heritage of the people practicing it. Religions promote, or can be twisted to promote, all kinds of horrors. Look at Christian history. Mostly religions amplify and preserve what's already there. Both the good parts and the bad.
Right, but christianity and islam both have a prohibition against dealing with thiIIIIIIngs from BeyoOOOOooond. Being against witchcraft is certainly a theological mandate. How far you take it is a legitimate matter of opinion and "burn them at the stake" does have a fair bit of theological backing: its not being made up whole cloth.

Some would argue the theological backing is a matter of mistranslation, but I don't really care. I really don't care what the theology is, as far as I'm concerned it's all made up anyway. What matters is what people do with it.

Few religions have a history of dealing particularly well with other religions. Whether that is burning at the stake, converting with the sword or just not letting interreligious couples get married in the church makes a big difference. And that difference is cultural, because the same religious texts get used to justify all of them.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Shut up about religion and atheism, I swear to God.


Hide it, AMiB.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Evil Lincoln wrote:
Hide it, AMiB.

Hiding it won't make it stop derailing threads.


Never fear!

I have a plan.

Taldor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I found This interesting. I wish more religious leaders had a message like this.


Guy Humual wrote:
I found This interesting. I wish more religious leaders had a message like this.

That dude is a freaking genius, too, because he hits the nail right on the head: "So, before the reaction, what, like maybe 30 people saw this movie? It was nothing until WE started rioting and gave it all that publicity!"

Taldor

He basically echos my first thoughts on the matter but states them far more eloquently then I could:

Guy Humual wrote:
One terrible consequence of this heinous act is that a terrible terrible movie is getting publicity.

Andoran

LazarX wrote:
Curious wrote:
LazarX wrote:

[

That's the whole point of hardball politics DM. If your goal is to unseat the President, you not only will take any advantage you can get, you'll try to set up as many no-win scenarios as possible.
Some things are more important than winning the next election, this is one of them. Anyone that does not get that has no business in the oval office.

It's a very high minded sentiment. But in the end, what matters is who gets those electoral votes at the end of the day. Rommney will use Obama's non-appearance at Arlington as a claim that the President doesn't care about America's soldiers. IF he appeared at Arlington, Romney makes the claim that Obama isn't giving the embassy slain their due.

It was scummy for Bush to play the race card with Willie Norton, but it helped get him the election. In American politics it's winner takes all, the person who comes in second gets curb stomped.

Um, you do know that Gore played that card first, right? And that Dukakis did, in fact, veto a bill that would have disallowed people convicted of first degree murder from participating in the furlough program? That Horton was black was incidental, frankly. If it's racist to use an actual real example of someone released from prison on a furlough that went on to rape a woman, bind, beat and knife her fiancee, when no other state or the Federal Bureau of Prisons would EVER allow someone with a life sentence a furlough to point out that Dukakis maybe wasn't wise enough to lead the nation, oh, well.

There are plenty of better examples of racism in politics to point out, that one probably isn't the best one to use.


Although praying about such things never made any sense to me (every man owes a death), I look at the life of Ambassador Stevens with fondness and respect in my heart. His final communications showed courage, strength, and optimism despite what was evidently inevitable to him.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

houstonderek wrote:
Um, you do know that Gore played that card first, right?

At a primary debate nobody at all watched, and without mentioning Willie Horton at all. It was a one-off mentioning that was critical of Dukakis's crime record, and Gore called out two other cases of prisoners on furlough committing crimes. The reason people call the Horton attacks racist is because of the ridiculous race-baiting television ads, most famously the Revolving Door ad.

"The DEMOCRATS mentioned Willie Horton first (without mentioning him by name or race)" has been a Bush Wasn't Such A Bad Guy talking point for a while.

Quote:
There are plenty of better examples of racism in politics to point out, that one probably isn't the best one to use.

For example, George W. Bush's push polls in the 2000 about how people would feel if they knew McCain had fathered an illegitimate interracial child. (He hadn't.)

Andoran

That would be a much better example, yes,

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