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The Magus gets a 6-level spell list, but it's actually a clipped version of the regular sorcerer/wizard spell list. I... don't understand this at all.
I don't get why a Magus couldn't cast Finger of Death, Polar Ray or Ride the Lightning. I don't get why the Magus didn't get a spell list similar to the Bard, in which 7 or 8-level spells were made into 6-level spells. For instance, Great Shout is a 8-level regular sorcerer/wizard spell, but a 6-level bard spell. They rearranged the bard spell list so it would be balanced as a 6-level list.
Why couldn't they do that for the Magus ?
1-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 1-level magus spells
2-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 1-level magus spells
3-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 2-level magus spells
4-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 3-level magus spells
5-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 3-level magus spells
6-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 4-level magus spells
7-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 5-level magus spells
8-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 6-level magus spells
9-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 6-level magus spells
(Of course, the list would have been restricted to certains spells.)
That would have worked. Right now the magus doesn't have many high-level spells that benefit from its full caster level nor does it have access to higher 7, 8 and 9-level spells, whether be by the spell list or by its class features.
So yeah, I just hate how awful the magus spell list is. Am I the only one who think that ?
Oh, BTW, don't give me that "magi had to be balanced since they use weapons" reason, ok ? Sorcerers and wizards have BARELY any option when it comes to close combat. Weak BAB, even though most melee spells are touch attacks, no at-will spell-like ability (even their 1st-level bloodline/school powers aren't, with that wimpy damage it deals) and finally no spells = you're screwed. The magus should technically be the cleric equivalent for arcane spells and if you have to make the traditional/standard magic warrior kind of character, it should be the magus.
Unfortunetaly, it lacks the power behind it, a.k.a. a 9-level spell list converted into a 6-level spell list, like the bard's.
Yes.
I have to agree with Gorbacz, while it would be nice to have the full spell access for our Magus, I don't think it would be balanced. Given Spell Blending and eventually Greater Spell Access, the magus list does have more options. I know that doesn't sit well enough with you and certainly doesn't grant spells of level 7+.
The Cleric comparison is an interesting one, but as a general rule arcane spells are more powerful than divine spells. To allow the Magus good combat abilities and full access to spells....it just wouldn't be balanced IMO.
You would in essence be saying...why bother with a Wizard? A Magus would get all the same spells, so some of them are level 6 instead of 9...you still would get them around the same levels. The only real difference would be DC. And on top of that you get the Magus hit points, better BAB, casting in armor, arcana, etc, etc. At that point a Magus is just too clearly better.
I think it is a case of balance and the DM in me says "Whenever a player wishes for that little bit more....the class is probably balanced..."
Just my opinion of course.
-AK
I'm also of the yes opinion, you are the only one this think this way.
Especially when they have spell blending and greater spell access to add Wizard spells, if they really want one of the ones they don't have. They are a rocking melee DPR class, whos spells can comeback after use in a single combat. Pearls of power aside, you just don't do that.
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The only thing that bothers me the most about the Magus is that the Bard gets better spells for a 6-level spell list, while the Magus doesn't.
I just think the sorcerer and the wizard suck, downright suck. There, I said it.
Why should I play a character with weak physical attributes, no decent armor and weapon proficiency, weak physical saving throws and a weak BAB ? Yes, I got spells, but I'm screwed if a monster comes charging at me... which can happen and will happen at the time.
Ok, I got touch spells, but the BAB is so low, in addition if not having decent STR and DEX scores, that it's not gonna matter. You're not using your caster level as your BAB for these kind of spells. Wow, you're getting screwed, by the monster's attack routine or by the monster's attack of opportunity when casting.
Like I said, their 1st-level bloodline/school powers are not at-will, even though the 1d6+score would not have broken them if they were.
Finally, no spells = you're dead, pure and simple. That's why I was looking forward to the magus, but got disappointed by its spell list that stops at 6, and not as 9 converted into 6.
The magus should be the magic warrior character we have been waiting for, ever since the duskblade was introduced in 3.5. But again, they limited its spell list to 6-level spells, not having any access whatsoever to 7, 8 and 9-level spells at all. Yeah, because we all know that a magus using Polay Ray with Spellstrike would have been broken to high Heavens.
Explain me this then: how come a bard gets high-level spells into its 6-level spell list, while the magus doesn't when it should ? I mean, it's the same logic. Paladins and Rangers [sometimes] get high-level cleric spells as 4-level spells, and clerics do have strong divine spells that rival arcane spells, when they use their domain spells and such.
Magus ? Nope, too powerful... I don't know where to begin...
The magus should have been a bard clone with a different spell list that equals in power with the sorcerer and wizard, in addition of all the regular magus features replacing the bard's. Right now, it doesn't, because sorcerers and wizards get better spells, while the magus doesn't. How hard is it to understand that ?
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I just think the sorcerer and the wizard suck, downright suck. There, I said it.
To say you are wrong is not saying 1% of the case.
I'm sorry, I stoped there.
I just think the sorcerer and the wizard suck, downright suck. There, I said it.
This is the most beautiful thing I have read on these forums. I might be in love...
I just think the sorcerer and the wizard suck, downright suck. There, I said it.
To say you are wrong is not saying 1% of the case.
I'm sorry, I stoped there.
I'm usually playing fighters, now I want to add using cool to my characters like spells. That's why the magus interested me, not to mention that I don't like multiclassing because you end up average in 2 classes, but not great in either of them.
Then I checked the Magus spell list, and got disappointed, mainly because it didn't happen with the bard.
I mean, it's like none of the companies understands how to make a magic warrior:
- Medium BAB
- access to 9-level arcane spells
- spell list compressed into a 6-level spell list
What's so hard to balance ? The cleric has medium BAB and access to 9-level divine spells and it's balanced. The bard has medium BAB and a compressed 6-level spell list and it's balanced. You mean to tell me that if the magus had access to 9-level arcane spells and a spell list compressed into a 6-level spell list, it would have been broken beyond repair ???
You're gonna have to explain me that thoroughly, because right now... sorry, there's no reason why I should tolerate the magus spell list considering how underpowered it is.
Yes, it can cast teleport, true seeing and fly, but that doesn't really matter when I need to burn 4 spells to kill an enemy when the wizard that that same level can just nuke it in one spell, because, you know, its spells are much stronger that mine.
I just think the sorcerer and the wizard suck, downright suck. There, I said it.
To say you are wrong is not saying 1% of the case.
I'm sorry, I stoped there.
I'm usually playing fighters, now I want to add using cool to my characters like spells. That's why the magus interested me, not to mention that I don't like multiclassing because you end up average in 2 classes, but not great in either of them.
Then I checked the Magus spell list, and got disappointed, mainly because it didn't happen with the bard.
I mean, it's like none of the companies understands how to make a magic warrior:
- Medium BAB
- access to 9-level arcane spells
- spell list compressed into a 6-level spell listWhat's so hard to balance ? The cleric has medium BAB and access to 9-level divine spells and it's balanced. The bard has medium BAB and a compressed 6-level spell list and it's balanced. You mean to tell me that if the magus had access to 9-level arcane spells and a spell list compressed into a 6-level spell list, it would have been broken beyond repair ???
You're gonna have to explain me that thoroughly, because right now... sorry, there's no reason why I should tolerate the magus spell list considering how underpowered it is.
Yes, it can cast teleport, true seeing and fly, but that doesn't really matter when I need to burn 4 spells to kill an enemy when the wizard that that same level can just nuke it in one spell, because, you know, its spells are much stronger that mine.
Underpowered? Underpowered?
Ah, I see, you almost had me there for a second. You never played one. Probably not even seen one up close. They are awesome. Try playing one first, before mouthing off. You couldn't be any more wrong without saying that wizards and sorcerers suck....Oh.
You, my friend, are wrong. Very wrong. Scientologist-level wrong. Fractally wrong. You are wrong at every conceivable scale of resolution. Zooming in on any part of this belief finds notions and ideas exactly as wrong as your entire belief.
Either that or you're a really good troll.
JiCi, when you said wizards suck, I want you to know that I shot Coke all over my monitor through my nose. And it burned.
This thread is the funniest thing I have seen all day.
Either that or you're a really good troll.
I hope that's the case.
Full on belly laugh over here. Tears in my eyes.
This is priceless.
I just think the sorcerer and the wizard suck, downright suck. There, I said it.
By Odin, that made my day... I don't care if you're trolling, have not enough experience with the game or is simply dumb... It really made my day.
I didn't think this forum could make me literally laugh out loud.
Thanks for that...
The Magus gets a 6-level spell list, but it's actually a clipped version of the regular sorcerer/wizard spell list. I... don't understand this at all.
I don't get why a Magus couldn't cast Finger of Death, Polar Ray or Ride the Lightning. I don't get why the Magus didn't get a spell list similar to the Bard, in which 7 or 8-level spells were made into 6-level spells. For instance, Great Shout is a 8-level regular sorcerer/wizard spell, but a 6-level bard spell. They rearranged the bard spell list so it would be balanced as a 6-level list.
Why couldn't they do that for the Magus ?
1-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 1-level magus spells
2-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 1-level magus spells
3-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 2-level magus spells
4-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 3-level magus spells
5-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 3-level magus spells
6-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 4-level magus spells
7-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 5-level magus spells
8-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 6-level magus spells
9-level sorcerer/wizard spells = 6-level magus spells(Of course, the list would have been restricted to certains spells.)
That would have worked. Right now the magus doesn't have many high-level spells that benefit from its full caster level nor does it have access to higher 7, 8 and 9-level spells, whether be by the spell list or by its class features.
So yeah, I just hate how awful the magus spell list is. Am I the only one who think that ?
Oh, BTW, don't give me that "magi had to be balanced since they use weapons" reason, ok ? Sorcerers and wizards have BARELY any option when it comes to close combat. Weak BAB, even though most melee spells are touch attacks, no at-will spell-like ability (even their 1st-level bloodline/school powers aren't, with that wimpy damage it deals) and finally no spells = you're screwed. The magus should technically be the cleric equivalent for arcane spells and if you have to make the traditional/standard magic warrior kind of...
While I think you've overlooked a lot of the magus' strong points, I get where you're coming from. Mages should be able to dominate the battlefield, but the nature of the game demands balance. Thanks to classic D&D, a melee-based footman must somehow compare with a master of the arcane. Really, if they'd do away with the per-diem garbage, full casters would come closer to being what they should be and no one else would suffer for it.
Oh, BTW, don't give me that "magi had to be balanced since they use weapons" reason, ok ? Sorcerers and wizards have BARELY any option when it comes to close combat.
Right... which is WHY they get the spells. Did you not read what you wrote?
Look, man... don't give me that lame "fighters have all the weapon proficiencies, so why should they also get a spell tree as good as a wizard's?" crap! I want spell levels without paying for them, and I want them NOW!!
Oh, and Daddy? I want an Oompa-Loompa! I want an Oompa-Loompa NOW!!!
Guys, to be fair the wizard isn't all that impressive at early levels unless you pick the right spells and while it's obviously overpowering late in the game, for much of it it only reaches its true potential if you pick the right spells.
For the record, JiCi, the magus was never intended to be what you were hoping for. He's a melee warrior who uses his spell to help him take people down, not a wizard crossed with a fighter. I'm afraid the best you can do for that is an eldritch knight.
Also, wizard power is high. They DO have armour, in the form of mage armour. While it uses up one of their spells and it has it's own disadvantages, it can last all day and it has all the benefits of armour with none of the drawbacks. And then there's shield, too. They can use a spell to fix any of their supposed flaws.
Oh, and I have a question. If I get a 50% chance to win an encounter as a standard action multiple times per day, why should I get to be tough too?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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The magus is primarily built around being able to hit hard and fast with significant damage spells delivered via spellstrike and to take advantage of the expanded crit range that ability can potentially offer.
You will find that a lot of magi take shocking grasp at first level... and continue to use it well into levels 5, 6, 7+. A wizard, if he takes shocking grasp at all, is hardly ever going to use it unless he has a death wish or there happens to be a situation in which it is the answer to a problem. Why? He doesn't have the durability of the magus. A magus can do what a wizard is, quite frankly, terrible at: blasting huge damage with touch spells.
Magi are damage-dealers. Wizards aren't (usually). A wizard's purpose is far better served with a wide array of utility and control spells than by dealing damage. Sorcerers have enough flexibility with the various bloodlines that if you want to build a blaster sorcerer, it's not necessarily a bad idea (and a lot of them tend towards damaging builds) but wizards really have no business dropping damage spells all over the place. It's just.... inefficient. Not to mention barbaric. :)
Ok, here's yet another argument of my reasoning:
- The magus looks more like a multiclassed fighter/wizard than a class of its own.
- The cleric and the druid have medium BAB and a 9-level spell list.
- The summoner and the bard have a 6-level spell list, but have also access 7, 8 and 9-level spells, such as Dominate Monster for the summoner and Great Shout for the bard.
- The magus has a 6-level spell, but with no access to 7, 8 and 9-level spells.
What actually prevented Paizo to take the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, compress it from a 9-level into a 6-level spell list, cherry-pick the spells suitable for the magus and then give it to the class ?
Name me ONE 7, 8 or 9-level spell from Sorcerer/Wizard spell list that if the Magus had it in its spell list, it would have been overpowered.
The main thing is that the magus spell list is restricted up to 6-level spells, when other arcane classes with medium BAB are not. This is what I don't like, and this is what I don't understand.
JiCi, when you said wizards suck, I want you to know that I shot Coke all over my monitor through my nose. And it burned.
It burned your screen? You should seriously consider switching the brand. That doesn't sound healthy. ;)
Spell name Wiz Cleric Bard
Analyze Dweomer 6 NULL 6
Animate Objects NULL 6 6
Cat's Grace, Mass 6 NULL 6
Charm MonsterMass 8 NULL 6
Cure ModeWds Mass NULL 6 6
Eagle's Spl, Mass 6 6 6
Eyebite 6 NULL 6
Find the Path NULL 6 6
Fox's Cunn Mass 6 NULL 6
Geas/Quest 6 6 6
Heroes' Feast NULL 6 6
Irresistib Dance 8 NULL 6
Permanent Image 6 NULL 6
Programmed Image 6 NULL 6
Project Image 7 NULL 6
Scrying, Greater 7 7 6
Shout, Greater 8 NULL 6
Summon Monster VI 6 6 6
Sympathetic Vibr NULL NULL 6
Veil 6 NULL 6
From my spells DB. All Bard 6th level spells, which are the same level for other classes, except 5:
Charm MonsterMass 8
Irresistib Dance 8
Project Image 7
Scrying, Greater 7
Shout, Greater 8
None of them are level 9th, 15% level 8th, 10% level 7th, 75% level 6th
IMO angelroble hits on a key point, sure the Bard and Summoner have access to a handful of higher level spells, but their spell-list overall is more limited in what it can do, usually restricted to buffs and SOS spells.
The Magus on the other hand can cast while full attacking in the same round, has access to a lot of good combat related spells. Sure his utility is limited, they gave him some of the better utility spells but not all of them. They designed him to be a warrior mage, not a utility mage fighter, there are other options for that out there. I think that is at the core of your complaint....you wanted X and they created Y. I think the community at large agrees that the Magus is powerful enough (search the forums and you'll find many that feel he is overpowered).
If I may ask....what spells are you really wishing he had access to?
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Jici, in a PFS game i was running a couple of weeks ago, I watched the party Magus one shot the boss at the end of the scenario.
We were running at the 7-8 tier, and the magus was 10th level i believe.....but still, the magus took down the big band monster at the end of the scenario with a single attack.....there was lots of electricity involved. The monster had I think 140 hit points.......I don't quite remember the exact combination....but it prevoked a "you did how much damage? How did you get that much damage?" from me.
The Magus is a powerful class.
Oh also, one thing to keep in mind. The character classes in this game are build to function as a team of specialists. Each team member has his own job which he is specialized for.
So no....the wizard isn't supposed to be in melee combat- thats what dim door spells are for.
The Fighter isn't supposed to be using magical spells or spell like abilites......he has his job....to take his sword and "stick them with the pointy end."
So putting a character class together that can do everything (Having a character that has equal skill in both magic and combat for example) well kind of defeats the reason for having an adventuring party.
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Yeah, your big thing isn't spells... its spell strike. I would like to see you complain about underpowered spells when you are walking around with a +1 Keen Nodachi using an Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp. Then if you Critical Strike you can now use another Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp if you score a crit (which wont be hard on a 15-20 weapon).
On top of this all, if you are a Kensai you can spend 3 Arcane Points to maximize weapon damage as if you where using a x3 weapon. You qualify for Critical Feats as well as a bunch of other fun fighter feats to raise damage even more.
So with a 22 Str (16 base with magic items and +1 at 4th and 8th lvl), power attack, critical feats, and weapon specialization you are doing 90 damage. Now factor in your first Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp for 20d6+10d6, then throw in your free Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp for 10d6+5d6 (we will assume this hits). Throw in a fun critical feat like Bleeding Critical to finish off the god awful amount of damage you will do.
So we will take average on the d6's so you are looking at 90 weapon damage + 105 from the first shocking grasp +57 from the second shocking grasp + 7 bleed from Bleeding Critical = 259 damage in one go... And I'm sure you can do a lot better then that if you wanted to.
[sarcasm] Thats not powerful at all [/sarcasm]
Edit: And for good measure make sure you take Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp) and Wayang Spellhunter (Shocking Grasp) and now you can do the above but as a second lvl spell, adding the possibility of even more more Metamagic Feats.
The Bard, the Inquisitor and the Magus are not full casters. They are hybrid classes.
Even if the bard got some 8 level spells they won't be that good since the DC will suck.
All 3 spells comes with Saving Throw and Spell Resistance.
2 out of 3 are mind affecting.
with the exception of Good Hope, the top 10 spell I used when I played my bard is on the magus' spell list or can be pick if the magus use his arcana. The opposite however is not true.
The Magus is a rock solid class.
I've just started playing a magus in a new campaign, and while theoretically I'd love to have the higher-level spell slots, I think the class is balanced without them.
There are some holes in the magus spell list. But my plan is to utilize spell research to create my own spells to fill in those gaps. I'll have to pay, but then nothing is free. Besides, it'll be fun to cast a few spells that my PC invented himself. :)
but it prevoked a "you did how much damage? How did you get that much damage?" from me.If it was like every single magus ever, then it was an intensified shocking grasp through a keen scimitar.
This amuses me as I'm currently GMing for two Magi, and neither uses a scimitar - one has a longsword, and one has an Aldori dueling sword. Both are Bladebound.
I'm playing alongside a third, an elven spelldancer, who does use one though.
The only thing I "hate" is optimization at the expense of interesting characterization.
I got my army of demons and oozes and flesh golems (oh my!). Bring on the dancing elves with the electro-scimitars. I am ready for a party.
Dervish dancer? ;-)
I'm playing alongside a third, an elven spelldancer, who does use one though.
She says she's not planning on it, no.
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but it prevoked a "you did how much damage? How did you get that much damage?" from me.If it was like every single magus ever, then it was an intensified shocking grasp through a keen scimitar.
Kensai with a wakazashi is what I've seen more often. It's a light weapon so finessable from the start and agile weapon enhancement is better than spending a feat. Also does P/S rather than just S.
So, what I'm getting from this thread is that the Magus should have been a full-BAB class with full armor proficiencies and effectively 9-level spellcasting, and it would be balanced by not having a familiar.
Sounds kind of underpowered to me. You should probably throw in a bonus feat every other level and maybe a few rogue talents.
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I have played a magus. My GM went nearly ballistic as I was applying those whip feats and using a whip for spellstrike. Several swears came from his mouth and he called the magus overpowered in quite a few encounters. Those Magus Arcanas can really help out sometimes.
The only objection I had to the Magus spell list was the lack of touch spell. At certain point I felt there were not enough touch spells. Otherwise for the most part the spell list is fine.
I took the whip feat tree and the Dimensional feats. So I started being all over the battlefield and granting all of the others flanking while I attacked. Wonderful time I had with that.
The only objection I had to the Magus spell list was the lack of touch spell. At certain point I felt there were not enough touch spells. Otherwise for the most part the spell list is fine.
Yeah I had that same impression. For a class based around Spellstrike, you would think there would be more options worth using besides Shocking Grasp, Frigid Touch, or occasionally Vampiric Touch... now that I think about it that might be half of the total amount of touch spells Magus has access to >_<
On a side note, I disagree with you Trojan Dwarf. Being an optimized anything and characterization are hardly mutually exclusive, but then again it depends on the player. Some people are only willing to go "my backstory and personality is I'm a level 9 human magus with a scimitar."
@ Flamehawke
Cooooool!
Flamehawke - Power gaming keen scimitar players: 1 - 0
I just love when people think outside the box :-)
Maybe you want to be a Hexcrafter?
Their hexes scale as well as wizard spells. Just make INT your primary stat and...ahh to hell with it. Search for the Hexcrafter Guide.
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@Zark I admit I did it because I thought a whip wielding magus sounded cool. Even better I got to stand 15 feet away. So I usually didn't need concentration checks and with my touch and ranged touch spells going through it, the tiny whip damage was made into a non-concern due to the spell damage going through it.
Plus I took that arcana that allows you to apply ghost touch or brilliant energy to your weapon. Between all of that tied to the whip and dimensional feats I took there was very little I could not do to help my allies while dealing out the damage.
My group now considers the whip the go to weapon for the magus despite the feat expenditure to gain it and the further feats to truly make it work.
@chaoseffect My group voted to transfer all wizard touch spells to level 6 over to the magus to give me more touch spells to play with. So far it has not destroyed the game at all just given magus players more touch spells to choose from.
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I was focusing on Dex actually. I took weapon finesse and at the time did not know about the Agile property. My magus wore elven chain as I wanted light armor to gain the most dex to AC.
You do have a point on the half-orc trait to skip the exotic weapon proficiency, but you still need Weapon Focus (whip), and Whip Mastery. Weapon Focus (whip) requires a BAB +1 and proficiency with the weapon. Whip Mastery requires Weapon Focus (whip) and BAB +2. So you don't get the full benefit until level 3.
If you want to threaten as well you need Improved Whip Mastery which requires Whip Mastery and BAB +5. I find it useful as you then threaten 10' around you.
So 3 feats to make it work really well. After that its pure flavor. I took weapon finesse at level 1 and then picked up the dimensional feats to allow me to pop around the battlefield. I also always take Combat Reflexes on my dex based characters.
As an additional note since this is a magus. The whip is a slashing weapon so the Vorpal property can be added to it when it is available to the magus.
Edited: I made a few corrections due to the fact our game houseruled feats at every level.