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Lore warden fighter builds?


Advice

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hello!
I'm wondering if anyone has any good builds for a lore warden fighter?
Point buy doesn't matter, I'm just curious to see what people come up with.

Also any other fighter builds for something that's aibt different then the standard "Run up and smash until dead"?

Or if there's any links to threads already like this.

Thanks in advance!


Take a look at Crane Style; it can really help out your defense. You can also fit in Improved Disarm and Improved Unarmed Strike to profit from your maneuver bonuses, so that you become an expert at snatching away people's weapons. Next go on to Combat Patrol, so that you even steal people's weapons before they get near to you. Meanwhile you haven't even begun to draw a weapon yourself. That's a cute build in a "civilized" setting where walking around like a heavily armed/armored adventurer is frowned upon.

There's also a cute build focused on polearms;

L1: Power Attack, Cleave, Dodge
L2: [Weapon Expertise], Improved Trip or Improved Disarm
L3: Mobility
L4: Spring Attack, Whirlwind (retrains Cleave)
L5: Combat Reflexes
L6: Lunge
L7: Combat Patrol

You can substitute Trip and Disarm for attacks such as those given by Whirlwind and Combat Patrol, and Lorewardens get a bonus to maneuvers. Lunge increases the area covered by your Whirlwind. The idea is to pick a polearm and basically play "gardener", weeding out enemies who try to get near your party.

A third approach is to go with the scimitar and invest in weapon specialization and improved criticals. Add on Whirlwind and Lunge, and you're making so many to-hit rolls that you're pretty much guaranteed at least one critical threat per round.

As for races: consider Elf or Dwarf. If you take Dwarf, and one level in a class with Medium+ armor proficiency, your Slow And Steady will help offset any slowdowns caused by armor.

Elves are fast enough as-is and also open the door to Weapon Finesse as a nice addition to the Crane build.

Both elves and dwarves can take Breadth of Experience. The +2 to all knowledge rolls should be a nice boost to your Know The Enemy ability.

Lantern Lodge

I perfer tripping a lot so what I would do is the following;

Race: Human

Class: levels 1-15 fighter, levels 16-20 rogue

Base Stats (20 point buy):
STR 13
DEX 17 (with racial)
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 10

Feats:
1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip, Weapon Focus Whip, Weapon Finesse
2 Whip Mastery, Combat Expertise (free from class)
3 Two-Weapon Fighting
4 Weapon Specialization Whip
5 Improved Whip Mastery
6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7 Combat Reflexes
8 Greater Weapon Focus Whip
9 Improved Trip
10 Greater Trip
11 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
12 Greater Weapon Specialization
13 Intimidating Prowes
14 Dazzling Display
15 Shatter Defenses
17 Gang Up
19 Dodge

The build will allow you to attack and trip enemies around you with the whip without provoking attacks of opportunity and those that become prone provoke when they fall and get back up. Also allows you to make a 30ft aoe intimidate as a full round action that hinders the enemy and making them flat footed to you so u can get in some sneak attack dmg for as long as they are intimidated.

Liberty's Edge

Psion-Psycho wrote:
I perfer tripping a lot so what I would do is the following...

I feel it should be pointed out that your build is designed for tripping, but does not take improved trip until 9th level. For most campaigns that is more than half the campaign not being a tripping-build but rather a "uses-whips-w/-twf-build.

Lantern Lodge

I see your point Nipin. It is a twf whip build but sadly there were other things that I view it needed b4 it got Improved trip and Greater trip to make it not suck. Though i am open to suggestions for the build i posted to get the most out of the tripping aspect of the character and to get it sooner with out to much trouble.


Not to mention that whips don't threaten, and being unable to make attacks of opportunity misses out on one of the best features of a tripping build.

Lantern Lodge

The Whip Master and Improved Whip master feats allow you to threaten up to 10 feat and also makes it were you do not provoke when attackign targets adjacent to you.

Lantern Lodge

@ Roberta if you do a simple read through on the feats via the Pathfinder Web site you will notice that a lot of the flaws of the whip are taken care of.


Oops, I forgot those were things. Nevermind, then!

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

A20 point buy for PFS: meant to be an all around support fighter.

Theodric Kelmorist
Male Human (Taldan) Fighter (Lore Warden) 1
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 14, touch 11, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 13 (1d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +0
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Dagger +4 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Guisarme +4 (2d4+4/x3)
Ranged Shortbow +2 (1d6/x3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 12
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 15
Feats Combat Expertise +/-1, Fast Learner, Improvisation
Traits Ease of Faith, Eyes and Ears of the City
Skills Acrobatics +2, Appraise +5, Bluff +3, Climb +4, Diplomacy +6, Disable Device +0, Disguise +3, Escape Artist +2, Fly +2, Handle Animal +3, Heal +2, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (arcana) +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +3, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Knowledge (geography) +3, Knowledge (history) +3, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +3, Knowledge (nobility) +3, Knowledge (planes) +3, Knowledge (religion) +3, Linguistics +5, Perception +5, Ride +2, Sense Motive +2, Sleight of Hand +2, Spellcraft +3, Stealth +2, Survival +4, Swim +4, Use Magic Device +3
Languages Common, Kelish, Varisian
Combat Gear Arrows (20), Dagger, Guisarme, Shortbow, Studded Leather; Other Gear Alchemist's Fire Flask (2), Backpack (17 @ 19 lbs), Bedroll, Candle (2), Charcoal Stick (2), Crowbar, Fishhook (2), Flint and steel, Mug/Tankard, clay, Pouch, belt (7 @ 3 lbs), Rations, trail (per day) (7), Rope, silk (50 ft.), Sewing needle, String (50'), Thread (50 ft.), Waterskin, Whetstone, Whistle, Signal
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Expertise +/-1 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.

Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.

At 2nd takes Improved Trip, at 3rd Improved Improvisation.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
HNNNNNNG wrote:

Hello!

I'm wondering if anyone has any good builds for a lore warden fighter?
Point buy doesn't matter, I'm just curious to see what people come up with.

Also any other fighter builds for something that's aibt different then the standard "Run up and smash until dead"?

Or if there's any links to threads already like this.

Thanks in advance!

Reach weapon + Lunge + Whirlwind Attack.

Lore Warden already gets Combat Expertise for free - best pure fighter I've ever made. Whirlwind Attack by 4th level, Lunging Whirlwind Attack by 6th and Dazing Whirlwind Attack by 11th level.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Tim, why would you take Combat Expertise at first level when you get it free at level 2?

Now personally, I'm a fan of dirty trick builds. I like to mix in a few levels of manoeuvre master monk so that I can do it while full attacking.

Fig 1 Power Attack, Improved Initiative
Mon 2 Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
Mon 3 Improved Reposition, Weapon Focus (Temple Sword)
Fig 4 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Fig 5 Combat Reflexes
Fig 6 Weapon Specialization (Temple Sword)
Fig 7 Greater Dirty Trick
Fig 8 Greater Trip

And so on.

Star Voter 2013

20 point buy

Human
Str 16 (this is the primary stat)
Con 12
dex 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 8

Feats

1. Power attack, Combat reflexes, Weapon focus (Naginata)
2. Combat expertise, Improved dirty trick
3. greater dirty trick, +2 to CMB/CMD
4. Greater dirty trick
5. Weapon training (Polearms), Pushinng assault
6. Quick drity trick
7. Improved trip
8. Weapon specialization (naginata)
9. Improved critical (naginata)
10. greater weapon focus (naginata)

Star Voter 2013

I Also have this one

Dwarf

Maneuver master 2 then lorewarden

Str 8
Dex 17
Con 15
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 5

Traits
Heirloom weapon (whip)

feats
1. Improved dirty Trick, Improved unarmed strike, Weapon finesse, Flurry of maneuvers
2. Improved Trip,
3. Steel soul, Weapon Focus (Whip)
4. Combat expertise, Greater dirty trick
5. Furys Fall
6. Whip mastery
7. Iproved whip mastery
8. Greater whip mastery.
9. Improved grapple
10. Combat reflexes
11. Lunge
12. Greater grapple.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Mergy wrote:

Tim, why would you take Combat Expertise at first level when you get it free at level 2?

Now personally, I'm a fan of dirty trick builds. I like to mix in a few levels of manoeuvre master monk so that I can do it while full attacking.

Fig 1 Power Attack, Improved Initiative
Mon 2 Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
Mon 3 Improved Reposition, Weapon Focus (Temple Sword)
Fig 4 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Fig 5 Combat Reflexes
Fig 6 Weapon Specialization (Temple Sword)
Fig 7 Greater Dirty Trick
Fig 8 Greater Trip

And so on.

Because I Derped.


I was messing around with a trip build and came up with

Trip'n'stomp:

Human
Str 18 +2 race
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13 +1 lvl 4
Wis 12
Cha 07

1st Brutal Pugalist 1 Power Attack, Furious Focus (Heavy Flail +5 to Hit 1d10+9 dmg)
Hp 16 Ac 17 Bab 1 Cmb +5 Cmd 17 Fort +4 Ref +2 Wil +1

2nd Brutal Pugalist 2 Knockdown Rage Power (Heavy Flail +6 to Hit 1d10+9 dmg)
Hp 25 Ac 18 Bab +2 Cmb +6 Cmd 18 (20vs grapple) Fort +5 Ref +2 Wil +1

3rd Martial Artist 1 Combat Reflexes, Vicious Stomp (Heavy Flail +6 to Hit 1d10+9 dmg, Stomp Tripped Target +5 to hit 1d6+6dmg )
Hp 31 Ac 18 Bab +2 Cmb +6 Cmd 18 (20vs grapple) Fort +7 Ref +4 Wil +3

4th Lore Warden 1 Dragon Style (Heavy Flail +7 to Hit 1d10+9 dmg, Stomp Tripped Target +6 to hit 1d6+9dmg )
Hp 38 Ac 18 Bab +3 Cmb +7 Cmd 19 (21vs grapple) Fort +9 Ref +4 Wil +3

5th Lore Warden 2 Improved Trip (Heavy Flail +8 to Hit 1d10+12 dmg, Stomp Tripped Target +6 to hit 1d6+12dmg )
Hp 45 Ac 18 Bab +4 Cmb +8 (+10 Trip) Cmd 20 (22 vs grapple, and trip) Fort +10 Ref +4 Wil +3

6th Martial Artist 2 Improved Grapple (Heavy Flail +9 to Hit 1d10+12 dmg, Stomp Tripped Target +7 to hit 1d6+12dmg )
Hp 51 Ac 18 Bab +5 Cmb +9 (+11 Trip)Cmd 21 (25 vs grapple 23 vs trip )Fort +11 Ref +5 Wil +4

7th Lore Warden 3 Greater Trip (Heavy Flail +10/+3 to Hit 1d10+12 dmg, Stomp Tripped Target +8 to hit 1d6+12dmg )
Hp 58 Ac 18 Bab +6 Cmb +12 (+16 trip) Cmd 23 (28 vs grapple 25 vs trip) Fort +11 Ref +6 Wil +5

Liberty's Edge

Ok, I made several builds. I am dumping what I have so far. None of these are perfect, but should give some ideas of possible variations. I tried to focus on getting all of the things which give the build combat options as early as possible for each build(focusing first on what the build will consider its signature). I apologize if the later levels get kind of random, but I just kind of tossed out some useful stuff at the end of each build.

For traits I would suggest either Reactionary (+2 init) or Threatening Defender(lessen combat expertise attack penalty by one). Threatening Defender makes Combat Expertise a free bonus to AC lvl 2-4 and a very cheap bonus until lvl 8 (or 12 depending on your opinion). I also suggest getting Indomitable Faith, because your will save is going to be terrible by later levels except for possibly the Dwarf build.

Of the following builds the Dervish Dance build will have the best AC (maximum DEX) and with Combat Expertise you should be able to be at least a back up tank. You could swap in Dodge, Shield Focus, and even Greater Shield Focus to bump up the AC a bit more (since all of the builds assume at least a buckler), but there is not a good place to stick any more feats without mucking up progression or waiting until near-endgame-levels. You could remove some of the options (such as giving up the improved bullrush line) in a build and stick the AC feats instead. If you do I suggest 1) Dodge 2) Shield Focus 3) Greater Shield Focus.

Dervish Dance Build:

Human
Fighter(Lore Warden)

STARTING STATS
str 14
dex 18(16 base, +2 racial)
con 14
int 12
wis 10
cha 8

FEATS
H1 - Power Attack
F1 - Weapon Focus(Scimitar)
1 - Weapon Finesse
LW2 - Combat Expertise
F2 - Improved Trip
3 - Dervish Dance
F4 - Weapon Specialization(Scimitar)
5 - Improved Overrun
F6 - Greater Trip
7 - Charge Through
F8 - Improved Critical
9 - Tripping Strike
F10 - Greater Weapon Focus(Scimitar)
11 - Greater Overrun
F12 - Greater Weapon Specialization(Scimitar)
13 - Penetrating Strike
F14 - Improved Bullrush
15 - Bullrush Strike
F16 - Greater Penetrating Strike
17 - Greater Bullrush
F18 - Combat Reflexes
19 - Improved Initiative
F20 - Martial Versatility(Greater Penetrating Strike)

Falcata Build:

Human
Fighter(Lore Warden)

STARTING STATS
str 18 (16 base, +2 racial)
dex 14
con 14
int 12
wis 10
cha 8

FEATS
H1 - Power Attack
F1 - Weapon Focus(Falcata)
1 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Falcata)
LW2 - Combat Expertise
F2 - Improved Trip
3 - Improved Overrun
F4 - Weapon Specialization(Falcata)
5 - Charge Through
F6 - Greater Trip
7 - Greater Overrun
F8 - Improved Critical
9 - Tripping Strike
F10 - Greater Weapon Focus(Falcata)
11 - Improved Bullrush
F12 - Greater Weapon Specialization(Falcata)
13 - Penetrating Strike
F14 - Bullrush Strike
15 - Greater Bullrush
F16 - Greater Penetrating Strike
17 - Combat Reflexes
F18 - Improved Initiative
19 - Martial Versatility(Greater Penetrating Strike)
F20 - Iron Will

Trip/Bullrush/Overrun Build:

Human
Fighter(Lore Warden)

STARTING STATS
str 18 (16 base, +2 racial)
dex 14
con 14
int 12
wis 10
cha 8

FEATS
H1 - Power Attack
F1 - Weapon Focus(Scimitar)
1 - Improved Overrun
LW2 - Combat Expertise
F2 - Improved Trip
3 - Charge Through
F4 - Weapon Specialization(Scimitar)
5 - Improved Bullrush
F6 - Greater Trip
7 - Greater Overrun
F8 - Improved Critical
9 - Tripping Strike
F10 - Greater Weapon Focus(Scimitar)
11 - Bullrush Strike
F12 - Greater Weapon Specialization(Scimitar)
13 - Penetrating Strike
F14 - Greater Bullrush
15 - Combat Reflexes
F16 - Greater Penetrating Strike
17 - Improved Initiative
F18 - Martial Versatility(Weapon Focus)
19 - Martial Versatility(Greater Weapon Focus)
F20 - Martial Versatility(Weapon Specialization)

Shield Fighting Build:

Human
Fighter(Lore Warden)

STARTING STATS
str 18 (16 base, +2 racial)
dex 15
con 14
int 12
wis 10
cha 7

FEATS
H1 - Power Attack
F1 - Weapon Focus(Scimitar)
1 - Improved Shield Bash
LW2 - Combat Expertise
F2 - Improved Trip
3 - Two Weapon Fighting
F4 - Weapon Specialization(Scimitar)
5 - Improved Bullrush
F6 - Greater Trip
7 - Shield Slam
F8 - Improved Critical
9 - Tripping Strike
F10 - Greater Weapon Focus(Scimitar)
11 - Shield Master
F12 - Greater Weapon Specialization(Scimitar)
13 - Penetrating Strike
F14 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
15 - Double Slice
F16 - Greater Penetrating Strike
17 - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
F18 - Weapon Focus(Light Steel Shield)
19 - Greater Weapon Focus(Light Steel Shield)
F20 - Weapon Specialization(Light Steel Shield)

Relentless Dwarf Build aka Dwarven Trip/Bullrush/Overrun Build:

Dwarf(Relentless trait - +2 bullrush and overrun)
Fighter(Lore Warden)

STARTING STATS
str 16
dex 16
con 14 (12 base, +2 racial)
int 12
wis 12 (10 base, +2 racial)
cha 5 (7 base, -2 racial)

FEATS
H1 - Power Attack
F1 - Weapon Focus(Dwarven Waraxe)
1 - Improved Overrun
LW2 - Combat Expertise
F2 - Improved Trip
3 - Charge Through
F4 - Weapon Specialization(Dwarven Waraxe)
5 - Improved Bullrush
F6 - Greater Trip
7 - Greater Overrun
F8 - Improved Critical
9 - Tripping Strike
F10 - Greater Weapon Focus(Dwarven Waraxe)
11 - Greater Bullrush
F12 - Greater Weapon Specialization(Dwarven Waraxe)
13 - Penetrating Strike
F14 - Improved Shield Bash
15 - Two Weapon Fighting
F16 - Greater Penetrating Strike
17 - Shield Slam
F18 - Weapon Focus(Heavy Steel Shield)
19 - Greater Weapon Focus(Heavy Steel Shield)
F20 - Weapon Specialization(Heavy Steel Shield)


Sneakkill da Butcher (H-Orc Lore Warden/Skulking Slayer)

Str 17 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 8; increase Str all

Combat Maneuver Focused build, light armor and 2h wpn
Fig/Rogue 4/10 or 8/6

Skulking slayer gives bonuses on dirty trick and steal. As a rogue, I use it to blind pretty much exclusively.
These were built for PFS so not optimized to the hilt, wanted mishmash of skills and abilities and only really usable til level 12.

Racial Traits out of Adv Races instead:

City-Raised: Half-orcs with this trait know little of their orc ancestry and were raised among humans and other half-orcs in a large city. City-raised half-orcs are proficient with whips and longswords, and receive a +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (local) checks. This racial trait replaces weapon familiarity.

Bestial: The orc blood of some half-orcs manifests in the form of particularly prominent orc features, exacerbating their bestial appearances but improving their already keen senses. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. This racial trait replaces orc ferocity.

Scavenger: Some half-orcs eke out a leaving picking over the garbage heaps of society, and must learn to separate rare finds from the inevitable dross. Half-orcs with this racial trait receive a +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks and on Perception checks to find hidden objects (including traps and secret doors), determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste. This racial trait replaces the intimidating trait.

Skilled: Second- and third-generation half-orcs often favor their human heritage more than their orc heritage. Half-orcs with this trait gain 1 additional skill rank per level. This racial trait replaces darkvision.

Fig 8 / Rogue 6 option(better BAB/CMB, more feats/hp/):

1 Fighter: Power attack (lev 1), Cleave(fig bonus)
2 rogue none (sneak 1d6)
3 fighter: expertise(free LW), Imp dirty trick(fig bonus), imp Steal
4 rogue: Surprise Follow Thru (rogue talent)
5 Fighter: (+2 CMB/CMD all LW bonus), Cleaving Finish
6 Rogue none, (2d6 sneak, d8 on charge w/2h wpn)
7 Fighter: Imp Trip(fig bonus), Felling Smash
8 Rogue: Gr Trip(rogue talent combat training)
9 Rogue: Combat Reflexes, (3d6 sneak)
10 Fighter: none;
11 Fighter: Gr Dirty Trick(fig bonus), Imp Crit -wpn-
12 Fighter: +2 to all CMB/CMD, Knowledge bonuses +2hit/dam to all you identify

Fig4 /Rogue 10 option (lower CMB/BAB, still 3 attacks, 2d6 sneak and skills):

1 Fighter: Power attack, Cleave(fig bonus)
2 rogue none (sneak 1d6)
3 fighter: expertise (free LW), Imp dirty trick(fig bonus), imp Trip
4 rogue: Surprise Follow Thru (rogue talent)
5 Fighter: (+2 CMB/CMD all LW bonus), Cleaving Finish
6 Rogue none, (2d6 sneak, d8 on charge w/2h wpn)
7 Fighter: Felling Smash(fig bonus), Gr Trip
8 Rogue: Imp Steal (Combat Swipe rogue Talent)
9 Rogue: Combat Reflexes (3d6 sneak)
10 Rogue: pressure point ninja trick(rogue ninja trick talent)(+1/2 rogue lev to feint Arch bonus)
11 Rogue: Gr Dirty Trick (4d6 sneak)
12 Rogue: Rogue Talent

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nipin, your builds don't qualify for Improved Trip with that 12 int. Having Combat Expertise free doesn't get them out of that.

Liberty's Edge

Mergy wrote:
Nipin, your builds don't qualify for Improved Trip with that 12 int. Having Combat Expertise free doesn't get them out of that.

Thought the INT requirement was only on Combat Expertise. You can easily move a point over to INT in order to get Improved Trip or just wait until lvl 4 and put your leveling point into INT.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nipin wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Nipin, your builds don't qualify for Improved Trip with that 12 int. Having Combat Expertise free doesn't get them out of that.
Thought the INT requirement was only on Combat Expertise. You can easily move a point over to INT in order to get Improved Trip or just wait until lvl 4 and put your leveling point into INT.

I suppose. I also find the low wisdom of all of your builds to be questionable. A fighter already has problems with will saves, but you exacerbate that problem by staying with a mere 10.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Nipin wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Nipin, your builds don't qualify for Improved Trip with that 12 int. Having Combat Expertise free doesn't get them out of that.
Thought the INT requirement was only on Combat Expertise. You can easily move a point over to INT in order to get Improved Trip or just wait until lvl 4 and put your leveling point into INT.

Nipin, I just checked . All prereques for a feat carry over to later feats in the chain.

Liberty's Edge

Mergy wrote:
Nipin wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Nipin, your builds don't qualify for Improved Trip with that 12 int. Having Combat Expertise free doesn't get them out of that.
Thought the INT requirement was only on Combat Expertise. You can easily move a point over to INT in order to get Improved Trip or just wait until lvl 4 and put your leveling point into INT.
I suppose. I also find the low wisdom of all of your builds to be questionable. A fighter already has problems with will saves, but you exacerbate that problem by staying with a mere 10.

Having a 12 is a very minor improvement and I do not know many fighter builds which would spend 5 points of their point buy allotment to get a 14. I suggest Indomitable Faith (trait) and if you are really concerned either Iron Will, a headband of wisdom, or both. Assuming the same wisdom for both a fighter and wizard (since each class values the stat equally), the 6 point difference between a wizard and fighter at 20th level is not going to be terribly difficult to overcome. With both the trait and feat the fighter can easily cut the margin to a 3 point difference (15% more failures). That does ignore the leveling process (most of the campaign). If the fighter picks up the feat at first level and has the trait he will exceed the wizard who just relies on high base save until 4th level and is never more than 3 points behind; add in a headband and the fighter can stay ahead or even with the wizard the entire campaign. Without the feat the fighter starts out 1 point behind and ends up 5 points behind at 20th and with a headband the difference can be reduced to 2 points behind at 20th.

Anyways, the point I am trying to get across is that with just the trait and a headband the fighter stays at reasonable save levels. As a fighter, Will save is just not going to be your thing. Feel free to disagree, but for me, staying within a couple points of the average wizard is good enough.


Ok so off topic, but not really. I have a question.. Lets say i have a lorewarden fighter 10 and have to following setup..

bab +10
str-22 +6

feats: imp trip and greater trip +4

class: manuever master +4
weapon train +2,

feats: weapon focus and greater +2

gear: gloves of dueling +2 weapon train
+2 falchion

Ok his normal attcks for this level would be:

+22/+17

His CMB for trip would be:

+30

Now my question is could u attack at +22 and hit the opponent and on your 2nd attack choose to trip him at +30 CMB and then using greater trip attack him again at +22?

Now the way i look at it this would work, which would tell me that using ur worst attack to trip at full CMB bonus and then attack at full bonus after u succeed is the way togo. Is this right?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The way I understand it, an iterative attack made to trip is still made at -5.

Liberty's Edge

WerePox47 wrote:

Ok so off topic, but not really. I have a question.. Lets say i have a lorewarden fighter 10 and have to following setup..

bab +10
str-22 +6

feats: imp trip and greater trip +4

class: manuever master +4
weapon train +2,

feats: weapon focus and greater +2

gear: gloves of dueling +2 weapon train
+2 falchion

Ok his normal attcks for this level would be:

+22/+17

His CMB for trip would be:

+30

Now my question is could u attack at +22 and hit the opponent and on your 2nd attack choose to trip him at +30 CMB and then using greater trip attack him again at +22?

Now the way i look at it this would work, which would tell me that using ur worst attack to trip at full CMB bonus and then attack at full bonus after u succeed is the way togo. Is this right?

Your trip would take any appropriate bonuses and penalties to attack rolls. So, you would take the -5 iterative attack penalty resulting in a 25 CMB, but the provoked AoO would be at 22.


Ok but even at a minus -5 its still the play, the average cr10 cmd is like 31 so a 6 or better would net u a full bonus attack..


But isn't it better to start with the trip, and make the subsequent two attacks against a prone opponent?


Human Lore Warden tripper build, 20 point buy
Traits: Heirloom Weapon: Fauchard (for +2 on trip checks; can use Masterwork Transformation to make it magical later on); something else (Defensive Strategist?)

Str 17 (racial +2), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7 (Initial)
Str 22 (28), Dex 14 (20), Con 14 (20), Int 14 (16), Wis 12 (14), Cha 7 (level 20)

Feats:
1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard)
1 Combat Reflexes [F]
1 Weapon Focus [Human]
2 Improved Trip [F]
2 Combat Expertise [LW]
3 Fury's Fall
4 Weapon Specialization [F]
5 Power Attack
6 Greater Trip [F]
7 Lunge
8 Improved Critical [F]
9 Greater Weapon Focus
10 Butterfly's Sting? [F]
11 Pin Down
12 Dazing Assault [F]
13 Penetrating Strike
14 Greater Weapon Specialization [F]

Level 20 gear: +5 Fauchard (or buffed by ally w/ Greater Magic Weapon), Str +6, Dex +6, Con +6, Int +2, Wis +2, cloak of resist +5, dusty rose iuon stone, ring of protect +?, amulet of nat armor +?, mithral breastplate +5, gloves of dueling, potions of enlarge person, other stuff...

(Fauchard base stats: 1d10, 18-20/x2, S, reach, trip)

Level 20, w/ enlarge person:

Fauchard +42/37/32/27 (2d8+30, 15-20/x2, S, reach, trip)
Trip CMB +57
[BAB +20, str +10, dex +4, +8 LW, +6 WT +1 size +2 trait +4 greater trip +2 gr. weapon focus]


Mergy wrote:

Now personally, I'm a fan of dirty trick builds. I like to mix in a few levels of manoeuvre master monk so that I can do it while full attacking.

Fig 1 Power Attack, Improved Initiative
Mon 2 Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
Mon 3 Improved Reposition, Weapon Focus (Temple Sword)
Fig 4 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Fig 5 Combat Reflexes
Fig 6 Weapon Specialization (Temple Sword)
Fig 7 Greater Dirty Trick
Fig 8 Greater Trip

And so on.

Mergy, this build can be improved by taking the Weapon Adept along with the Manoeuvre Master monk archetype as they are compatible with each other. This gives you Perfect Strike instead of Stunning Fist which I think is a very good trade. You also pick up Weapon Focus for free at 2nd level of monk which means you can pick up another feat at 3rd level.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
c873788 wrote:
Mergy wrote:

Now personally, I'm a fan of dirty trick builds. I like to mix in a few levels of manoeuvre master monk so that I can do it while full attacking.

Fig 1 Power Attack, Improved Initiative
Mon 2 Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
Mon 3 Improved Reposition, Weapon Focus (Temple Sword)
Fig 4 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Fig 5 Combat Reflexes
Fig 6 Weapon Specialization (Temple Sword)
Fig 7 Greater Dirty Trick
Fig 8 Greater Trip

And so on.

Mergy, this build can be improved by taking the Weapon Adept along with the Manoeuvre Master monk archetype as they are compatible with each other. This gives you Perfect Strike instead of Stunning Fist which I think is a very good trade. You also pick up Weapon Focus for free at 2nd level of monk which means you can pick up another feat at 3rd level.

Of course Perfect Strike can't be used with the temple sword, but your idea has merit. The kama isn't a bad choice for your idea.


Mergy wrote:
Of course Perfect Strike can't be used with the temple sword, but your idea has merit. The kama isn't a bad choice for your idea.

Kama Double Chained is an even better choice. I think this is the only weapon that doesn't involve intensive feat investment that allows you to fight adjacent foes but also gives reach at 10 feet and is also a tripping weapon.

But it means you'd probably pick Half Elf as your race and get the Ancestral Arms racial ability that lets you be proficient in any exotic or martial weapon.

You also then get to pick up Skill Focus as a racial Half Elf bonus and Sense Motive is an obvious choice. You can then pick up the Snake Style feat which is incredibly powerful and is dependent on the Sense Motive Skill. It means you are almost guaranteed that one attack per round is going to miss you even if it is a touch attack.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Human Lore Warden tripper build, 20 point buy

Traits: Heirloom Weapon: Fauchard (for +2 on trip checks; can use Masterwork Transformation to make it magical later on); something else (Defensive Strategist?)

Str 17 (racial +2), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7 (Initial)
Str 22 (28), Dex 14 (20), Con 14 (20), Int 14 (16), Wis 12 (14), Cha 7 (level 20)

Feats:
1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard)
1 Combat Reflexes [F]
1 Weapon Focus [Human]
2 Improved Trip [F]
2 Combat Expertise [LW]
3 Fury's Fall
4 Weapon Specialization [F]
5 Power Attack
6 Greater Trip [F]
7 Lunge
8 Improved Critical [F]
9 Greater Weapon Focus
10 Butterfly's Sting? [F]
11 Pin Down
12 Dazing Assault [F]
13 Penetrating Strike
14 Greater Weapon Specialization [F]

Level 20 gear: +5 Fauchard (or buffed by ally w/ Greater Magic Weapon), Str +6, Dex +6, Con +6, Int +2, Wis +2, cloak of resist +5, dusty rose iuon stone, ring of protect +?, amulet of nat armor +?, mithral breastplate +5, gloves of dueling, potions of enlarge person, other stuff...

(Fauchard base stats: 1d10, 18-20/x2, S, reach, trip)

Level 20, w/ enlarge person:

Fauchard +42/37/32/27 (2d8+30, 15-20/x2, S, reach, trip)
Trip CMB +57
[BAB +20, str +10, dex +4, +8 LW, +6 WT +1 size +2 trait +4 greater trip +2 gr. weapon focus]

You'd need to take armor expert as your other trait or the lack of proficiency in the mithril breastplate would make you suffer a -1 due to aromor check penalty.


I suggest you dedicate at least 2 or 3 feats to ranged combat. you'll most likely need it.


Why? You have full BAB and high str and decent dex, and can make bows your 2nd weapon training, which means gloves of dueling also kicks in.

With a masterwork or +1 bow matched to his str mod (you know, depending on current level; at 1 I'd just carry a sling) and now feats devoted to archery at all, the LW build above at level 8 (as an example) is attacking at +11 for 1d8+6 damage. One level higher, with weapon training + gloves of dueling and another BAB added in, it's now +15 for 1d8+8. At level 20, with a +1 bow, the fighter is attacking at +31 for 1d8+15. Those are respectable numbers. And eventually you'd hope the fighter picks up winged boots or finds a caster nice enough to actually cast Fly on him...

Bertious: Yeah, you're right. Armor Expert it is!


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Why? You have full BAB and high str and decent dex, and can make bows your 2nd weapon training, which means gloves of dueling also kicks in.

With a masterwork or +1 bow matched to his str mod (you know, depending on current level; at 1 I'd just carry a sling) and now feats devoted to archery at all, the LW build above at level 8 (as an example) is attacking at +11 for 1d8+6 damage. One level higher, with weapon training + gloves of dueling and another BAB added in, it's now +15 for 1d8+8. At level 20, with a +1 bow, the fighter is attacking at +31 for 1d8+15. Those are respectable numbers. And eventually you'd hope the fighter picks up winged boots or finds a caster nice enough to actually cast Fly on him...

Bertious: Yeah, you're right. Armor Expert it is!

That's true. I just see the fighter as someone who should be awesome in both ranged and melee combat. And he does have the feats to do it.

Although I think as a Lore Warden, I'd be tempted to focus on maneuvers. Besides Trip, I really like Dirty Trick, but I'm not sure how good it is, as I've never seen it in play.

I don't like Weapon Specialization, though. It's pretty good, but it's also so... boring.


It is. I was mostly just trying to fill up feat slots, and figured being good at damage AND tripping would make it seem like less of a one-trick pony. You could also add critical feats, but I hate them. Even with that build's 15-20 crit range. I love Dazing Assault so much more... And it's so very nice to use on AoOs. Reliabilty is awesome!


While LW get this bonus to maneuvers, I wouldn't invest too much into them. The way CMD rises on big, strong monsters, you shouldn't depend on them; they're a good option against humanoids, but not so great against monsters.

Archery is a nice second option; your reduced armor usage is less of a problem at range. With PBS and Precise Shot you should be good enough, including against big monsters. Big enough monsters may even not get soft cover from the rest of the party anymore.


Ascalaphus wrote:
While LW get this bonus to maneuvers, I wouldn't invest too much into them. The way CMD rises on big, strong monsters, you shouldn't depend on them; they're a good option against humanoids, but not so great against monsters.

My level 10 LW should Trip at +31, and that doesn't include much in the way of shopping. An adult green dragon (Huge) CR 12 has CMD 39 vs Trip. So I'll have to be Enlarged to do it (a cheap potion) but that only adds to the Trip bonus. Assuming you can fight the dragon somewhere it can't fly (a huge assumption) it does conjure a great mental image.

CR 13 Storm Giant, CMD 42
CR 13 Iron Golem, CMD 39
Both appropriate BBEG and both quite Tripable from level 10 Lore Warden.

And I have spare feat slots at levels 3,4,5,6,8,9,10 for archery or whatever - Improved and Greater Trip, and Power Attack being the basis of the build. The character is still level 1. I might take some armour proficiency. I'm also thinking of going barbarian from level 4.

What you really want to work on is having that spellcaster in the party being able to cast a Heightened Daze of some sort, or build a Magus with an heirloom heavy falchion and Daze readied.

I think Trip is a lot of fun. In PFS play I recently Tripped the BBEG in round one then took a 5' step back. Everyone else surrounded him and wailed upon his prone body. There was some attacks made as enemies retreated in round two, but there was no round three.


How do other people feel about investing in armor proficiencies? I've even contemplated dipping a level in another class to get them on the cheap.

Star Voter 2013

Ascalaphus wrote:

While LW get this bonus to maneuvers, I wouldn't invest too much into them. The way CMD rises on big, strong monsters, you shouldn't depend on them; they're a good option against humanoids, but not so great against monsters.

Lets see a LW against an acient gold dragon (CMD 53, 57 against trip)

Now, how high can have the LW his CMB?

CMB= +20(BAB)+ 5(weapon) +8 (maneuver mastery) + 4 (weapon training) + 2(gloves of dueling) + 8 (abiliity score) = +47

without spending a single feat and not using swfirt lore

with improved dirty trick (or trip), greater dirty trick and swift lore it becomes

CMB = +53

now, with a dueling weapons it becomes

CMB= + 63

We are talking about succeding almost all times against a gargatuan str 39 beast .


Why is the dragon not flying?


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Why is the dragon not flying?

Dragons are taken as the Ultimate Monster, some we jump to them for comparisons. That and it just hilarious to picture being able to Trip a dragon. Picture a dragon on his back, with his legs flailing about in the air like a turtle that can't right itself - every fighter wants to be THAT fighter.


If you do it without spending a feat, the dragon gets AoO against you; that's probably not healthy.

Also, examples at level 20 aren't the most relevant; it needs to work at every level, not merely at the end of the road.

But I suppose maneuver mastery might actually be good enough to make maneuvers work. Huh, fancy that.


But that's just it. Most higher level monsters can fly or teleport. Or both.

That in turn makes trip less relevant at higher levels.

Star Voter 2013

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Why is the dragon not flying?

Dragons like to full attacks with all their weapons. And for that kind of situations i like dirty trick more than trip.


Ascalaphus wrote:
How do other people feel about investing in armor proficiencies? I've even contemplated dipping a level in another class to get them on the cheap.

Perhaps did into Barbarian with the Armoured Hulk archetype. Take Extra Rage feat so you don't run out mid combat (though you'll probably only use the Rage in combat once per day. Find some way to avoid Fatigue once per day - Human alternate racial Heart of the Fields works, though it is not legal for PFS play (if that matters).

Star Voter 2013

Ascalaphus wrote:

If you do it without spending a feat, the dragon gets AoO against you; that's probably not healthy.

Also, examples at level 20 aren't the most relevant; it needs to work at every level, not merely at the end of the road.

But I suppose maneuver mastery might actually be good enough to make maneuvers work. Huh, fancy that.

lets see level 10. CMB 34 (bebilith, the highes CMB i could find with a quick search)

CMB: 10+ 2(weapon training) + 2 (weapon) + 4 (maneuver mastery ) + 6 (ability score) + 6 (feats*) + 2 (dueling property)= 30

*Improved X, Greater X, weapon focus, greater weapon focus

So the LW can blind a bebilith with a 4.

in the next level he adds another +5 (+2 maneuver training + 2 weapon + 1 BAB)

and that is just without any buff rom the party, good hope, haste, heroims enlarge person... any of that buffs really help.

So, i think Lore wardens excel with maneuvers at all levels range.


So I'm a bit confused here. It's become conventional wisdom on this forum that maneuvers aren't all that good because CMD rises too faster after say, level 8. Is the lorewarden an exception? Maneuver Mastery gives a nice bonus, but is that really all the difference you needed? Or were maneuvers not as hard as commonly said? (For a fighter, perhaps?)

Star Voter 2013

Ascalaphus wrote:
So I'm a bit confused here. It's become conventional wisdom on this forum that maneuvers aren't all that good because CMD rises too faster after say, level 8. Is the lorewarden an exception? Maneuver Mastery gives a nice bonus, but is that really all the difference you needed? Or were maneuvers not as hard as commonly said? (For a fighter, perhaps?)

only math can answer that. choose a level and a CR equivalent monster and we do the calculations.

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