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Who is better at TWF, Ranger or Fighter?


Advice

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So I'm trying to make characters for my brother and his wife. He wants to play a Dwarf that fights with an axe in one hand and a shortsword in the other. He wants to be an outdoorsy type, good at fishing and hunting. What do you think would be best, Ranger, Fighter, or some mix of both?

He doesn't want to cast spells (so probably skirmisher archetype if going more then a few levels of ranger) and animal companion would be ok but not required.

Doesn't have to be optimized, it just has to work.


BTW, feel free to just discuss the question in the thread title, or the specific build for my bro. Either/or.


I'd recommend Ranger as you don't need to have sky-high Dex to TWF with them.


Yeah that was the first thing I tried as well. But I can see the feats and weapon training will really be missed.

TBH, this concept he requested sounded cool but it's a pain to build. TWF is just not that great.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, both have their advantages. With TWF factors like weapon training and favoured enemy get a powerful multiplier, so really if there is a popular foe for this adventure, go ranger. If it could be anything, go fighter. What I would recommend, is that axe & shield is a better combo than axe & shortsword. Even if your dex is limited, so you only get one extra attack, the shield is worth it for the protection.


It also depends does he want to do more consistent damage, or does he want to be able to do a lot more damage at certain times. I don't think either one is really better. It just depends on what he wants to do.

Lantern Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Fighters by their nature will always be better at things concerning melee or whatever combat style they choose to focus in.

It's what you want to be able to do OUTSIDE of combat that should decide your choice.

Shadow Lodge

I recommend the ranger. The fighter maybe somewhat more consistent in melee but the ranger can do it with a lower dex/higher strength and get some extra outdoorsy powers and skills to boot. The hardest thing about being a new player playing a fighter is not have the skills or other abilities to do things out of combat. Sure, you can kill, but you can't see, fish, hunt, track or anything else except 2 things.


Ranger, easily. Being able to ignore the silly prereqs for the TWF feats is enough to seal the deal for me.


For your case, Ranger just sounds most appropriate. Besides being just as good at TWF, you don't suffer so much in other aspects, like outdoors skills. Rangers get a workable 4 skill points per level and have more appropriate class skills.

For the general case, you should also look at rogues; they can use Weapon Finesse for the to-hit, and sneak attack for the damage. So they don't really need Strength anymore. Going pure Dex-based is also kinder on the AC and the Dex prerequisite for TWF isn't any hindrance anymore.


If you go with ranger, don't discount the spells entirely. Spells like instant enemy and lead blades are good ways to boost damage.

Also, rangers are 6 skill points per level, not 4.

Taldor

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TWF, your looking for stuff to add to all attacks, sneak attack, cavalier's challenge, Dirty Fighter trait, etc....

I love half-orcs for Tusked trait (secondary bite)... which stacks well with TWF...

I have a TWF Half-orc cavalier/rogue[rake]in one AP that I can grant Precise Strike to the party and flank with our rogue and paladin.


Killsmith wrote:

If you go with ranger, don't discount the spells entirely. Spells like instant enemy and lead blades are good ways to boost damage.

Also, rangers are 6 skill points per level, not 4.

Right, even better.

Also, even if you're not wild about spells, it's not such a major feature for rangers that it should really get in your way. There's a lot of buffs that aren't much of a bother to use. It doesn't have to feel like playing a spellcaster.


My vote goes for fighter. I can post again later to properly compare the advantages of both, but the two-weapon warrior archetype in the APG will get Weapon Training any time they are dual wielding (softening the blow from wielding two weapons of different types), and will also allow you to do some neat things like attack with both weapons on a standard action.

Dual Wielding is feat intensive, and, as a ranger, I don't feel like I get enough of them. You get a few as bonus feats, but just not enough for me. You also don't get any special dual wielding abilities like the fighter does.

Dual wielding as a fighter is a little bit MAD, but it's doable unless your game is exceptionally low magic. If you can manage a starting dex of 15 you're golden, you can wear a belt of dex until you get to the levels where antimagic fields really matter; at that point, use wish spells or manuals to increase the stat.

If you can't afford a 15, a 13 will sort of do you, but you won't be able to dual wield until you can afford a dex belt, and you'll only be able to go to 18 with wish spells, meaning you'll need a +2 dex item working on you to get your 3rd offhand attack. It's doable, though.


LazarX wrote:

Fighters by their nature will always be better at things concerning melee or whatever combat style they choose to focus in.

It's what you want to be able to do OUTSIDE of combat that should decide your choice.

Only thing he really wants to be able to do outside of combat is hunt and fish.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Grimmy wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Fighters by their nature will always be better at things concerning melee or whatever combat style they choose to focus in.

It's what you want to be able to do OUTSIDE of combat that should decide your choice.

Only thing he really wants to be able to do outside of combat is hunt and fish.

While you may not be as legendary about it as Ranger Rick, you can certainly do that as a fighter.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In this example ranger is the way to go. 1st he's a dwarf, next bonus there. Next he's using a light weapon. Wants to be the outdoorsy type that means skills and Rangers have that and more.

You go fighter if you want to be the master of two weapon fighting using the two weapon Warrior archetype. Works best with the 25 point buy.


For the op idea i recommend rangers Because the character will wield two diferent weapon.

As a fighter you want to stack WF, GWF, WS, GWS, Improved critical and weapon traning, so they are better if the wield the same kind of weapon in each hand.

Also as a ranger you have hte posibility of using the animal companion to lock down enemies.


well ,maybe a fighter(lorewarden) 4 or 5 then all ranger keeps the fighter boost to dmg and feats and you won´t lose so many skillpoints


The weapon master archetype puts out strong DPR numbers, better than any other fighter type if DPR is the main concern. Hunting and fishing are both handled by survival. What else does your brother want to do Grimmy?


Does he just want to hunt and fish, or does he want to be good at it. Anyone can hunt and fish, but does not mean they are going to have the skills of someone who spends all their time outdoors. If he wants to be the type that goes hunting and fishing to get away from it all a fighter would probably be best. If on the other hand he wants to be the type who can live off the land and follow a trail that is days old a Ranger is going to be better.

The skills you are going to want to have maxed out for a good outdoor type are Perception, Stealth and Survival. You are also going to want Climb, Knowledge Dungeon(He is a dwarf), Knowledge Geography, Knowledge Nature, and Swim.

Throw in some craft skills and he the type you can throw down in the middle of a wilderness completely unequipped and will build his own weapons and armor and live off the land. A fighter in the same situation is going to starve to death or get killed by a bear.

Qadira

No need to over exaggerate about the fighter.

But ranger is totally the way to go. Maybe a samurai though.

Favored enemies that are often good are human and undead. You game may vary, ask for advice from the GM as all paizo APs list suggestions.

Boon companion is a great feat for getting alot out of the animal companion.


Thanks everyone, I am taking all of this in.
Here's a stat block so far. This is exported from Hero Lab, sorry if some of the formatting is kind of annoying.

stat block:

GREGOR CR 3
Male Dwarf Ranger (Skirmisher) 4
NG Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision; Perception +8
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 18. . (+7 armor, +1 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 46 (4d10+16)
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +2
Defensive Abilities Defensive Training
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee
. . Masterwork Waraxe, Dwarven +7 (1d10+3/20/x3) and
. . Shortsword +5 (1d6+1/19-20/x2) and

--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Antagonize, Endurance, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Waraxe, Dwarven
Traits Resilient, Suspicious
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb +3, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Handle Animal +3, Heal +5, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (Geography) +4, Knowledge (Nature) +7, Perception +8, Profession (Fisherman) +5, Ride -3, Sense Motive +2, Stealth +1, Survival +8, Swim +3
Languages Common, Dwarven
Terrains: Forest (+2 bonus) (Ex), Track +2, Wild Empathy +3 (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Chainmail, Masterwork Dwarven Waraxe, Masterwork Shortsword, Masterwork Silver Dagger, Heavy Crossbow;
Other Gear Antiplague (vial), Antitoxin (vial), Backpack, Bear Trap, Bedroll, Blanket, Bread, per loaf, Cheese, hunk of, Firewood (per day), Fishhook, Flint and steel, Furs, Hammer, Iron Spike, Meat, chunk of, Potion of Bull's Strength, Potion of Cure Light Wounds, Pouch, belt (3 @ 0 lbs), Ring of Protection, +1, Sack (empty), Smelling Salts, Smokestick, Vermin repellent, Weapon Blanch, Silver
--------------------


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My favorite Two Weapon Fighting build is Barbarian 1 / Fighter x with the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype. There are several things that come together with this build that just make it a beautiful thing.

The barbarian dip is for fast movement and rage. While rage will be limited with just a 1 level dip, it's still nice to have the option for a few rounds per day. Plus, the theme of a dual-wielding berserking warrior is a nice flavor boost to the standard two-weapon fighter.

Don't worry about the medium armor or less requirement of the fast movement... when you can afford it, just buy a set of Mithral Full Plate, which allows for fast movement while granting the AC of full plate, and it makes up the deficit for losing out on the benefits of Armor Training. The max DEX bonus being bumped to +3 is particularly nice because you want to be shooting for 17 DEX anyway with this build (mainly for the good feats).

Every single one of the Two-Weapon Warrior's abilities are VERY nice, but my favorite is Doublestrike. There are MANY situations when you won't be able to make a full attack (e.g. when you have to take more than a 5-foot step), and Doublestrike is one of the only abilities in the game that allows you to make more than 1 attack as a standard action. What makes this even MORE attractive is the Two-Weapon Rend feat, which is the main reason you want 17 DEX with this build. You can put up some big numbers this way, even with just a standard action. What now, casters! :p

Also Combat Reflexes is a VERY good feat to have with this build because of the Two-Weapon Warrior ability, Equal Opportunity. If you have 17 DEX with this combo, you get to attack with BOTH weapons for each attack of opportunity you make, you have the potential of using two-weapon rend with the attack of opportunity, and you can do that 4 times per round! Take the Lunge feat to add even more opportunities for an AoO, and you're just being ridiculous at that point.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

FOr his build, ranger.

1) Easier switch hitting. His FE bonus works regardless of what weapon he's using. So, he's just got to choose applicable FE's. If he wants axe and spear, unlike a fighter, it works just fine for him. Mechanically he should probably use a shield and axe and the shield ranger archetype, but it still works.

2) Ranger spells can cover a lot of shortcomings.

3) At level 8, Instant Enemy comes online, which means that the boss encounter is always his best FE.

As long as he advances his best FE, he will remain consistently ahead of a Fighter for any combat that counts. The ability to flark Dex means he can invest in Str, so he should be a point or two ahead in that as well.

Many of a Fighter's abilities require high ability scores to actually make use of. A Ranger tends to get around those restrictions, particularly at low level.

==Aelryinth


Also I should mention this does not have to be optimized, it just has to be good enough that I don't end up with extra work tweaking encounters, you know what I mean? I want to be able to grab CR appropriate monsters on the fly and not worry about TPK, other then that it doesn't have to be the awesomest build in the world, it's for a casual, all noob game.

My brother hasn't played since AD&D when we were kids, and his wife has never played but she likes MtG, and she got right into character creation without getting overwhelmed like some people do. So I think it would be cool to get them to sit down for at least a session or two.

The point of this is just to have a couple of fun sessions. They will never in a million years be able to make time for a whole AP. Three little kids, one is a baby :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
GeneticDrift wrote:

No need to over exaggerate about the fighter.

But ranger is totally the way to go. Maybe a samurai though.

Favored enemies that are often good are human and undead. You game may vary, ask for advice from the GM as all paizo APs list suggestions.

Boon companion is a great feat for getting alot out of the animal companion.

No need to exaggerate the Two Weapon Warrior does it better. I've played both. The Ranger is really good but TW Warrior can wield 1 handed weapons for example with no penalty. My ranger I went with Saw Tooth Sabers to avoid the -4/-4 for two 1 handed weapons. Being able to attack with both weapons on standard action and for Attacks of Opportunity was great especially with combat reflexes. I did Longsword and Heavy shield with my Two Weapon warrior. It was quite impressive.

In the end though I preferred the ranger. I found the TW warrior to be a one trick pony. Really good at up close and personal melee but nothing else.


Ranger, archetype Guide.

Is for me the best TWF overall, no worries about those so called favored ennemies you cross the blade with once every three months. Just focus on one target, seek&destroy.

Plus, he won't need lvl8 to be efficient against any target.

And overall, I think ranger is better for:
1) Better access to feats (no need epic dext AND strength)
2) Low spells. You could trade them with an archetype, but hey, those are just awesome. Lead Blade, Life Bubble... !
3) Way more damages overall with favored ennemies. Weapon Training is like +1/2 somewhere around. Fav ennemies grows very fast and very strong. Plus, you will be able to spend every points in strength since you will need way less dext than the fighter. So only stats-wise you should overcome the Weapon Training.
4) Skills. Not a terrible bet but hey... it makes a difference.
5) Style. Ranger is just way more awesome than a brute fighter.


By the way TWF with axe and shortsword is non-negotiable. We've got a mini already painted ;)


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Does he just want to hunt and fish, or does he want to be good at it. Anyone can hunt and fish, but does not mean they are going to have the skills of someone who spends all their time outdoors. If he wants to be the type that goes hunting and fishing to get away from it all a fighter would probably be best. If on the other hand he wants to be the type who can live off the land and follow a trail that is days old a Ranger is going to be better.

The skills you are going to want to have maxed out for a good outdoor type are Perception, Stealth and Survival. You are also going to want Climb, Knowledge Dungeon(He is a dwarf), Knowledge Geography, Knowledge Nature, and Swim.

Throw in some craft skills and he the type you can throw down in the middle of a wilderness completely unequipped and will build his own weapons and armor and live off the land. A fighter in the same situation is going to starve to death or get killed by a bear.

I think he does want to be this guy.


I'd say the Fighter is a better TWF, whereas the Ranger is almost as good a TWF but is better at pretty much everything else.


Aelryinth wrote:

FOr his build, ranger.

1) Easier switch hitting. His FE bonus works regardless of what weapon he's using. So, he's just got to choose applicable FE's. If he wants axe and spear, unlike a fighter, it works just fine for him. Mechanically he should probably use a shield and axe and the shield ranger archetype, but it still works.

2) Ranger spells can cover a lot of shortcomings.

3) At level 8, Instant Enemy comes online, which means that the boss encounter is always his best FE.

As long as he advances his best FE, he will remain consistently ahead of a Fighter for any combat that counts. The ability to flark Dex means he can invest in Str, so he should be a point or two ahead in that as well.

Many of a Fighter's abilities require high ability scores to actually make use of. A Ranger tends to get around those restrictions, particularly at low level.

==Aelryinth

1) This is a great point. He wants an axe in one hand and a shortsword in the other so FE sounds like the way to make this work.

2) Unfortunately spell-less is part of the concept.

3) I'm not banking on this character ever seeing level 8 but who know? Maybe I can get them hooked.

One thing I can do for sure is make sure he runs into plenty of his FE.

Silver Crusade

Just be a Fighter with the Mobile Fighter archetype. Since TWF feats grant all those additional attacks, the first attack that you give up with Rapid Attack (Ex) is marginalized.

Considering that he's TWF with two different weapons, Leaping Attack covers 'weapon training' bonuses to ALL weapons as long as he moves at least 5 feet (pretty sure this includes a 5-foot shift).

This makes his damage far more consistent once he reaches a higher level, letting him belt out near-full-attacks more often.


Thanks for all the replies. I was feeling very doubtful about TWF Ranger, now I feel better.


Both have their advantages and disadvantages that make them both viable. While the ranger does not have to qualify for the feats, and thus can be a two weapon machine with almost no dex at all there is the fact that the ranger will not have nearly the feats that the fighter will have. The fighter may have to focus their ability scores a bit more but the volume of feats available can make the focus a bit less painful on the player.

It will always depend on what the overall concept of the character is, but when it boils down to it I would likely go with fighter for two weapon fighting. Ok, I need massive dex, but then I can take all the TWF feats, Weapon Finese, Improved Critical, Critical Focus, and Bleeding Critical to really add emphasis to that dual wielding character. Add to that the full alotment of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats and Weapon Training as well and you are not loosing a ton of damage on the character regardless of the lower strength the character might have (depending on how the other points are distributed).

A Ranger, awesome as they are, just is not going to have that kind of focus. Ok, they get the TWF feats without needing to meet the requirements, but they really don't have the range of feats and abilities available to focus like a fighter. That shouldn't matter, though, what with favored enemies and animal companions plus summoning spells. The ranger doesn't need to focus because they can just bring their own army to the battle.

I like to focus, though, and that is why I would go with Fighter over Ranger if I am specifically looking for a TWF character.


Another option for replacing spells is the Trapper. While for the most part this is not as good as spells it does fit in with his background. The traps are a little weak for my tastes but it also gives him trap finding which may also be useful.


I would do Fighter. Rangers get bonus feats at 2, 6, and 10. At level 10 they can get the 11 BAB feats.

Unfortunately that's not enough bonus feats to make TWF really work. You need double slice and two weapon rend to get a damage advantage.

The extra damage for TWF to outdamage THF is pretty high, you won't get it on favored enemy alone for a while. Double Slice makes Strength an advantage rather than break even, but it requires 15 dex and TWF. You're either taking it or TWF, which also requires 15 dex, as a non-bonus feat. You'd therefore need to buy 15 dex.

TWF fighters usually buy 15 or 17 dex and rely on stat boosters. You can count on a +2 dex boost by level 6 with a magic mart, though it might be at the expense of not having a strength boost. You should be able to get +4 dex by level 11.

Two Weapon Rend is what really makes TWF pull ahead in damage. Rangers can get it a level early as a bonus feat, but that means not taking greater TWF as a bonus feat, which means the same 19 dex as the fighter. More likely they'd take greater TWF as the bonus feat and two weapon rend at level 11, same as the fighter. That still means 17 dex.

The ranger is then probably buying the same 15-16 starting dex and saving two points of dex enhancement, but because he wants his dex +2 while his strength is +4 he's paying ioun stone prices for the dex if he can't get a custom alternate slot dex item.

The question then becomes whether favored enemy or weapon training is better. Favored enemy is a bigger number, but selective, and if you're stacking on one favored enemy for Instant Enemy all the other FEs will be +2. If you're spreading them they don't get above +4 with one stuck at +2. AFAIK there is no FE booster like there is Gloves of Dueling for weapon training. The fighter is also adding weapon specialization fairly early if using paired light weapons or a double weapon.

It looks like the fighter may be stacking more damage than a ranger except against one enemy if the ranger is stacking a single favored enemy. That would make the fighter the better TWFer.

The Guide ranger archetype trades favored enemy for something of equal magnitude that works like smite. This is probably a much better deal, and may make a viable damage booster for TWF if your GM favors few encounters or mobs of lower CR enemies that outnumber your front line. On days when there are more encounters than 1+level/3 the fighter's always on weapon training and specialization will become an advantage or when the ranger would need to burn multiple ranger's focus uses in a single encounter to get through it.


Quote:

He doesn't want to cast spells (so probably skirmisher archetype if going more then a few levels of ranger) and animal companion would be ok but not required.

Doesn't have to be optimized, it just has to work.

I would combine Ranger with TWF Fighter archetype. Later he can choose which to advance more...

When going Ranger versatility is the key. A fighter can/has to focus on specific weapons more. A Ranger not so much. Don't forget you can also throw that hand-axe! Keep a hammer, a crossbow or bow, other weapons of different materials. Use several types of axes.

The Ranger is also more rounded in skills and other abilities. Tracking, sneaking, survival. Instead of animal companion consider the hunter's bond with his companions.

Consider choosing some dwarfish alternate racial traits: Giant Hunter for example.

If he doesn't care for hunting or skill use then focusing more on fighter would probably be a good idea.


Thanael wrote:
Quote:

He doesn't want to cast spells (so probably skirmisher archetype if going more then a few levels of ranger) and animal companion would be ok but not required.

Doesn't have to be optimized, it just has to work.

I would combine Ranger with TWF Fighter archetype. Later he can choose which to advance more...

When going Ranger versatility is the key. A fighter can/has to focus on specific weapons more. A Ranger not so much. Don't forget you can also throw that hand-axe! Keep a hammer, a crossbow or bow, other weapons of different materials. Use several types of axes.

I would never take the TWF fighter archetype. It trades out weapon training, which means no gloves of dueling. The replacement only works on full attacks, even after getting doublestrike.

It also trades armor training for defensive flurry. Armor training is always there. Defensive flurry is touch AC, but is only there when you make a full attack and only against melee. Most touch attacks are going to be ranged so the fact that it's touch AC is of little benefit compared to the heavier armor you can wear with armor training being there when you're flat footed or just haven't made a full attack because you moved into position.

A normal fighter TWFs better than the TWF archetype. Even if you're fighting with stuff in different weapon groups.

I'd suggest not mixing weapons just for convenience, though. You can have a mini that isn't perfectly representational. If all your attacks are with a hand axe (or all are with a short sword) you don't have to worry about which attack is which unless power attacking between when you get double slice and when you get two weapon rend. If they're different weapons you have to track which crits on a x2 on a 19 and which crits x3 but only on a 20.

And you can't throw a hand-axe. You can throw a throwing axe, which is the same except for not having an x3 crit. Of course you can't throw a throwing axe very far. If you want to throw something get a light hammer. You might like axes, but a 10' range increment sucks a lot more than suboptimal damage or a slightly nonrepresentative mini. Axes and hammers don't always look very different in profile.

Also consider a dagger. Better damage type (can do slashing or piercing, which will pair better with a throwing hammer) and is in the thrown weapons group. The line between daggers and short swords is *very* blurry, as is the line between short swords and "longswords." If you're confident the mini isn't using an arming sword it's probably near the dagger borderline. Daggers also share a weapon training group with throwing axes and light hammers.


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If ALL he wants is basic hunting and fishing, then ranks in Survival does that.

If (Combat Wise) he wants to be a Meat Grinder then either Two Weapon Warrior or Dawnflower Dervish are the best TWF's (Mobile is a Close 3rd).

If he wants to be ALMOST as good a meat grinder, but with LOTS of other stuff. Then Ranger is the way to go.

Check the guide to the guides.
There is a guide to TWF for rangers
And a guide to TWF for fighters.

Also remember ignoring dex req for TWF means a ranger could start with 18 STR. A fighter will be a 15 or 16.

That's weapon focus right there.


Atarlost wrote:

I would never take the TWF fighter archetype. It trades out weapon training, which means no gloves of dueling. The replacement only works on full attacks, even after getting doublestrike.

It also trades armor training for defensive flurry. Armor training is always there. Defensive flurry is touch AC, but is only there when you make a full attack and only against melee. Most touch attacks are going to be ranged so the fact that it's touch AC is of little benefit compared to the heavier armor you can wear with armor training being there when you're flat footed or just haven't made a full attack because you moved into position.

A normal fighter TWFs better than the TWF archetype. Even if you're fighting with stuff in different weapon groups.

I agree. I have a Fighter/Rogue built on the two-weapon warrior archetype, and I won't use that archetype again. My husband's two-weapon fighter is Rogue/Barbarian, and it's interesting to see the two different characters together. (They are partner characters who always play together--which makes the Teamwork feats really useful!)


STR Ranger wrote:

If ALL he wants is basic hunting and fishing, then ranks in Survival does that.

If (Combat Wise) he wants to be a Meat Grinder then either Two Weapon Warrior or Dawnflower Dervish are the best TWF's (Mobile is a Close 3rd).

If he wants to be ALMOST as good a meat grinder, but with LOTS of other stuff. Then Ranger is the way to go.

Check the guide to the guides.
There is a guide to TWF for rangers
And a guide to TWF for fighters.

[b]Also remember ignoring dex req for TWF means a ranger could start with 18 STR. A fighter will be a 15 or 16.

That's weapon focus right there.

Barin

My character, 20 points buy, not optimized at all. He has str 18 and dex 15...

I went fighter. As it is I'm in doubt on how to develop him. I was thinking simply keeping him as a fighter and getting shield master while increasing strength. He won't be that impressive with just +1 attack (instead of +3) but he should be doing goodt damage with all the normal fighter feats plus the defence of the shield (although I will be using a light shield for better attack bonus)


You should be able to afford +2 dex by level 6. That gets you improved TWF. If you put level up in dex at 4 and 8 you'll be able to get greater TWF with only the +2, or you can get your dex belt to +4 by level 11 for greater TWF.

If you can trade out your weapon focus you should TWF with two light weapons or a double weapon. I think the Dwarven Dorn-Durgar or however it's spelled is double. Your character is first level so either of your combat feats can be the bonus feat that's retrainable. You should not have the skill focus at first level. If you're actually second level and the sheet is in error both of your combat feats must be fighter bonus feats and therefore retrainable.

Fighters really want two weapons of the same type. Even if using a shield using another shield as your other weapon is better than any other weapon for a fighter because of the fighter only feats in the weapon focus chain.


If going with dwarf , go with the Dwarven Urgosh. Racial Double Weapon. Weapon Focus etc applies to Both Heads and you can Two handed strike with it when you move.


Atarlost wrote:

You should be able to afford +2 dex by level 6. That gets you improved TWF. If you put level up in dex at 4 and 8 you'll be able to get greater TWF with only the +2, or you can get your dex belt to +4 by level 11 for greater TWF.

If you can trade out your weapon focus you should TWF with two light weapons or a double weapon. I think the Dwarven Dorn-Durgar or however it's spelled is double. Your character is first level so either of your combat feats can be the bonus feat that's retrainable. You should not have the skill focus at first level. If you're actually second level and the sheet is in error both of your combat feats must be fighter bonus feats and therefore retrainable.

Fighters really want two weapons of the same type. Even if using a shield using another shield as your other weapon is better than any other weapon for a fighter because of the fighter only feats in the weapon focus chain.

There's no mistake: the Skill focus feat is a bonus feat we are allowed by our master as long as it increases skills, I took TWF and weapon focus as my starting feats. Good idea about the Ugrosh... but at this point I'll have to wait till 4th lvl before being able to change the bonus feat.


Barin Orcbane wrote:
There's no mistake: the Skill focus feat is a bonus feat we are allowed by our master as long as it increases skills, I took TWF and weapon focus as my starting feats. Good idea about the Ugrosh... but at this point I'll have to wait till 4th lvl before being able to change the bonus feat.

You don't actually need to change it until level 4 since that's when you qualify for weapon specialization. Keep the axe until then but don't enchant it, and at level 4 get the ugrosh, move the focus, and specialize.


I would drop his CHA down by one and boost his WIS up to 14. Better survival, perception, will saves for virtually no cost.

Antagonize is just about the worst feat there is. It's a standard action, so instead of chopping something in half, he makes something attack him, wasting resources (his HP) in exchange for not progressing the fight towards conclusion. If he wants to be intimidating, suggest Intimidating Prowess or Skill Focus.

Other than that it looks pretty good. Out of curiosity, what is his wife making?


Thanael wrote:
Quote:

He doesn't want to cast spells (so probably skirmisher archetype if going more then a few levels of ranger) and animal companion would be ok but not required.

Doesn't have to be optimized, it just has to work.

I would combine Ranger with TWF Fighter archetype. Later he can choose which to advance more...

When going Ranger versatility is the key. A fighter can/has to focus on specific weapons more. A Ranger not so much. Don't forget you can also throw that hand-axe! Keep a hammer, a crossbow or bow, other weapons of different materials. Use several types of axes.

The Ranger is also more rounded in skills and other abilities. Tracking, sneaking, survival. Instead of animal companion consider the hunter's bond with his companions.

Consider choosing some dwarfish alternate racial traits: Giant Hunter for example.

If he doesn't care for hunting or skill use then focusing more on fighter would probably be a good idea.

I was definitely leaning this way. When I tried putting it together in hero lab I got a little bogged down, second guessing myself if it was worth it. Right now I'm kinda thinking straight ranger so I can flump down the dex and put more in strength and just make sure he fights his FE a lot.


Also consider that in the early levels your stats are more important than anything. Honestly a 1st level elven wizard with an 18 STR wielding a long sword is going to be better at it than a 1st level Fighter with a 10 STR. Once the fighter gets a few levels the situation changes. Now the difference between a ranger and a fighter is a lot closer so it takes a little more time for the fighter to pull ahead.

Your previous post indicated you did not expect to go past 8th level. You also stated that the sword and axe was non-negotiable. I would go for a straight ranger and boost the STR at the expense of DEX. Now don't dump DEX, but a modest DEX will do fine. The greatest strength of the fighter is when he is focused on a particular weapon which you are not doing.

Depending on your point buy and willingness to dump stats you may could take two weapon fighting for your first level feat pick up double slice at 2nd level and improved two weapon fighting at 6th level. As long as you have a decent STR you will be doing pretty good damage and have 4 attacks per round with your full STR bonus on each. Use a Dwarven War Axe for the axe to get 1d10 damage. That also leaves your normal feats for things like power attack or anything else you need.


You likely don't want to dump DEX completely, as this ranger won't be using a shield, can't use style feats if wearing heavy armour, and is probably spending most of their wealth on having two magic weapons.

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