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Somebody brought up the possibility for some PFS support for the Shattered Star Adventure Path. I would feel that it would be very neat to be able to play a PFS character through the Adventure Path. Even if that is not feasible, I would like to see Chronicle sheets similar to the ones given for Pathfinder Tales.
Would this be possible, or is this in discussion?
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One of the things I will be doing if I ever run an AP is put the party on something similar to the PFS experience system. If I were to run a home game I would slap the PFS restrictions on the players with a few exceptions, <These might include Item creation feats and things of that nature> However it is not feasible to put out chronicles for AP's nor to reward playing through them to a PFS character. It's a different experience, just enjoy it.
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I don't really see the point.
Adventure Paths (APs) assume the characters in question are only ever playing the Adventure Path. Not other scenarios, adventures, etc. in between each segment. Once you strayed from the AP (PFS Scenarios/Modules), you'd level away from the expected character level for the next segment at some point and never finish.
So the characters in an AP only ever exist/get played within the AP. This does, in theory, allow for someone to play Pt. I with one group of people/GM and then play Pt. II with an entirely second set of people/GM...but that's about it.
Further, the "soft" cap in PFS right now is level 12. Every character who reaches this level must go through a Retirement Arc (Currently only Eyes of the Ten) to transition into high level play. APs go into the mid-to-late teens level wise. An exception could be made for PCs who are just doing the Adventure Path...but again, why do PFS Chronicles for characters who won't see play outside the AP?
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Pathfinder APs are likely never going to be approved for Society play. There are too many logistic issues involved in tying up a character from 1st to 20th level, adjusting the xp scale, and from trying to break down the APs so they could be played at a convention.
There is nothing stopping you from making a chronicle-style sheet for your home group to keep track of treasure and experience while you play through the AP, but I don't think you'll ever see official ones, as chronicles are meant for society play.
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I feel that with the Shattered Star Adventure Path and the connection with the Pathfinder Society, there is an opportunity to attempt something ambitious. I understand that it might be a little too ambitious to think that PFS characters could go through the AP and be eligible for PFS play, but I think a Chronicle similar to the Pathfinder Tales would be kind of neat.
On another note, I would like a blank Chronicle-Style Sheet to use for my players as I run an AP. It would be a great way for me and the players to track XP and Treasure, as well as boons that I give to them.
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Further, the "soft" cap in PFS right now is level 12. Every character who reaches this level must go through a Retirement Arc (Currently only Eyes of the Ten) to transition into high level play.
Note: This is incorrect.
12th level PCs do NOT have to go through the retirement arc to keep playing past 12th level, however, once they are past 12th level with 33 XP, they can no longer play through the retirement arc.
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I feel that with the Shattered Star Adventure Path and the connection with the Pathfinder Society, there is an opportunity to attempt something ambitious. I understand that it might be a little too ambitious to think that PFS characters could go through the AP and be eligible for PFS play, but I think a Chronicle similar to the Pathfinder Tales would be kind of neat.
On another note, I would like a blank Chronicle-Style Sheet to use for my players as I run an AP. It would be a great way for me and the players to track XP and Treasure, as well as boons that I give to them.
I like the Idea of this - tho I doubt we will see it happen
I also would like to see GM's who run an AP be able to report it and gain PFS GM Credit
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I personally know of a few people who have become disillusioned with PFS based on several different factors (that I wont list as its another ball of wax) but absolutely love the AP's while the GM is not of the same opinion and running it because they were asked to
now I'm not suggesting that GM's receive a chronicle ...but that they have the option of running an AP, reporting it, and receive table credit as if they had run X amount of PFS scenarios (maybe 3 per book since sanctioned modules grant 2)
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I personally know of a few people who have become disillusioned with PFS based on several different factors (that I wont list as its another ball of wax) but absolutely love the AP's while the GM is not of the same opinion and running it because they were asked to
now I'm not suggesting that GM's receive a chronicle ...but that they have the option of running an AP, reporting it, and receive table credit as if they had run X amount of PFS scenarios (maybe 3 per book since sanctioned modules grant 2)
This is not being snarky in any way. It is asked in a matter of fact tone and curiosity. If they are disillusioned with PFS and don't participate in the campaign any longer, why do they care about how many PFS GM stars they have or how many PFS games they are credited with?
Also, please email me with the ball of wax so I am aware.
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This is not being snarky in any way. It is asked in a matter of fact tone and curiosity. If they are disillusioned with PFS and don't participate in the campaign any longer, why do they care about how many PFS GM stars they have or how many PFS games they are credited with?
Also, please email me with the ball of wax so I am aware.
misinterpreted ... a couple of players are disillusioned ...the GM isn't..
the Idea I was presenting was based on the Idea that a game cannot happen without players ... and if the players aren't interested in PFS yet the GM is interested then there could be an option available to "Cross promote" the different products
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This is not being snarky in any way. It is asked in a matter of fact tone and curiosity. If they are disillusioned with PFS and don't participate in the campaign any longer, why do they care about how many PFS GM stars they have or how many PFS games they are credited with?
Also, please email me with the ball of wax so I am aware.
misinterpreted ... a couple of players are disillusioned ...the GM isn't..
the Idea I was presenting was based on the Idea that a game cannot happen without players ... and if the players aren't interested in PFS yet the GM is interested then there could be an option available to "Cross promote" the different products
But what are the reasons they a disillusioned with PFS? Is it the restrictions in play?12 th level cap? Or maybe just don't like the scenario style play?
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there is this argument: I like running adventure paths, but I also like playing in PFS, I as a GM, would like to be able to get credit for APs I run to apply to my PFS characters and such.
I would honestly be ok with "generic" chronicle sheets. Ex:
AP for 1st level - Tier 1-2 1500GP, 3xp, 4PP No items/boons.
AP for 3rd level - Tier 3-4 4000GP, 3xp, 4PP No Items/boons.
there is certainly an "average gold" award based on level/sub-tier.
It's ~500 for 1-2, 1350 for 3-4, 3400 for 6-7 from what I have played in :D
All that being said. meh? I'd love to get PFS credit for running rise of the runelords, I think it would be sweet. It's also not a make or break issue just something a lot of people would like.
It would be nice to have something like this:
For Adventure path x. Award a subtier x chronicle sheet after the players resolve this issue pg#.
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But what are the reasons they a disillusioned with PFS? Is it the restrictions in play?12 th level cap? Or maybe just don't like the scenario style play?This is not being snarky in any way. It is asked in a matter of fact tone and curiosity. If they are disillusioned with PFS and don't participate in the campaign any longer, why do they care about how many PFS GM stars they have or how many PFS games they are credited with?
Also, please email me with the ball of wax so I am aware.
misinterpreted ... a couple of players are disillusioned ...the GM isn't..
the Idea I was presenting was based on the Idea that a game cannot happen without players ... and if the players aren't interested in PFS yet the GM is interested then there could be an option available to "Cross promote" the different products
I sent them to Mike ... I don't want to post them in this forum because I fear it would derail into something MUCH different
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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In the original thread where this came up I suggested the possibility of having Pathfinder Society Quests that could be slotted into an Adventure Path at a predefined point, and which would grant a minor 'player boon' on completion (as well as treasure/XP in the normal AP way). A GM could, of course, get the same boon.
Because a Quest is a non-reportable session, it doesn't have to be completed with PFS-registered (or even PFS-legal) characters.
If this proved to be popular/useful, the Quests could eventually be integrated into later Adventure Paths, rather than being bolt-on extras.
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I brought this up before in THIS thread.
Bottom Line: Currently PFS Management does not want to implement AP's into PFS play due to the complexity of managing and playing these AP's effectively.
There are probably 2nd and 3rd order of effects that(i.e. unintended consequences) we are not privy to.
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Further, the "soft" cap in PFS right now is level 12. Every character who reaches this level must go through a Retirement Arc (Currently only Eyes of the Ten) to transition into high level play.Note: This is incorrect.
12th level PCs do NOT have to go through the retirement arc to keep playing past 12th level, however, once they are past 12th level with 33 XP, they can no longer play through the retirement arc.
Wait, so it's possible to keep playing through modules for 12+? The whole arrangement is honestly fairly confusing to me, because I keep hearing different things.
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Wait, so it's possible to keep playing through modules for 12+? The whole arrangement is honestly fairly confusing to me, because I keep hearing different things.Further, the "soft" cap in PFS right now is level 12. Every character who reaches this level must go through a Retirement Arc (Currently only Eyes of the Ten) to transition into high level play.Note: This is incorrect.
12th level PCs do NOT have to go through the retirement arc to keep playing past 12th level, however, once they are past 12th level with 33 XP, they can no longer play through the retirement arc.
no need to be confused or rely on hearsay. it's all outlined in the Guide to Organized Play. a lot of confusion pops up as there has been evolution as to how this works from previous seasons.
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I don't understand this course. AP's by there nature are not suited for the one-shot nature of PFS. The storyline is much tighter and lengthy than what can be covered in organized play and they do not really accommodate players dropping in and out as the story progresses.
Someone suggested GM credit for AP play. Providing the GM rewards for running PFS is to help encourage players to take on the GM mantle and expand the number of GM's we have. So why would we want to reward GM's for doing something that does not directly improve PFS play?
Someone suggested table credit for AP play. What does that mean?
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Someone suggested table credit for AP play. What does that mean?
when you report PFS Scenarios or Sanctioned Module that you run on the website you are granted "Table Credit" you being a 5 star would have 150+ ... I as a 2 sttar would have 30+
1 point for a scenario
2 points for a Module
what I was suggesting was a way for GM's that run AP's who activly care about their GM Stars to be able to gain them with players who did not want to play in PFS since the Star Program is defined below
In order to both encourage more reporting from GMs
and event coordinators and to offer a “bragging rights”
type of reward for GMs, Pathfinder Society Organized
Play offers a GM ranking system. This system uses stars
to denote the activity and experience of a given GM.
and IMHO AP's fall well within the "Experience" catagory - as from what I have gathered Running an AP is a lot more work than running a scenario..
and again you may have a GM Running AP's for a player (while playing PFS online) want to go to Paizo or GenCon to volunteer to run scenarios .. he would be passed over for some of the 3star + GM Req scenarios because he only GM's AP's
that was the reason I made the table credit suggestion
and I do NOT agree with GM Credit Chronicles
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and IMHO AP's fall well within the "Experience" catagory - as from what I have gathered Running an AP is a lot more work than running a scenario..and again you may have a GM Running AP's for a player (while playing PFS online) want to go to Paizo or GenCon to volunteer to run scenarios .. he would be passed over for some of the 3star + GM Req scenarios because he only GM's AP's
On the other hand, if your proposal were adopted, I could foresee a situation in which a DM whose home group burns through APs could wind up as a 3-star PFS GM, without having actually ever run a PFS game. Yes, he'd know the Pathfinder game system very well by that point, and might be an excellent GM in general...but he might not know jack about how PFS works, or how to GM in an OP or convention environment.
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My group is discussing using one session a month of our weekly PFS game to run the new adventure path. It seems a good fit since the players are already invested in being Pathfinders and it gives some variety to play at our FLGS. I think that we are so used to being pathfinders in our PFS games and the fact that the adventure path has the PCs as pathfinders is causing some mental overlap.
I'm so used to dealing with chronicles and GM credit for these games one of my first thoughts was how we were going to handle these. It took me a few minutes to realize that we are not going to have them. Not having to deal with loot and experience is a big time saving device and it will be odd to lose it.
In our case, our GMs who run the AP are running games for organized play that just happens to be outside of the PFS structure. The GM is doing more work, and promoting Pathfinder in public so I can see why some would want the same credit they might get for a scenario or module.
Getting through an adventure path in a store or convention setting is a big deal. We're going to do it either way because the play is its own reward, but a boon for finishing either a chapter or finishing the whole path would be pretty awesome.
I understand why we are not getting them. Adventure paths are way outside the organized play rules. The reporting system is in no way able to handle APs. Characters in them are going to level completely through the level range for normal PFSOP and might not ever see a normal scenario. Why make chronicle sheets for characters that could never use them?
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no need to be confused or rely on hearsay. it's all outlined in the Guide to Organized Play. a lot of confusion pops up as there has been evolution as to how this works from previous seasons.
Most of my confusion stems from said evolutions; I generally do not read each new guide cover to cover but instead check the change logs and specific sections that apply to my characters.
what I was suggesting was a way for GM's that run AP's who activly care about their GM Stars to be able to gain them with players who did not want to play in PFS
As Mike Mistele already pointed out, this has some pitfalls (Multi-star GMs who have never even run PFS). Further, the star program is a reward for running PFS games for PFS players. The program encourages people to judge PFS events regularly. More judges means more people get involved and better/more experienced judges means that PFS (and in turn Pathfinder) is well represented. Asking to be given that credit for judging non-PFS tables undermines this goal.
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what I was suggesting was a way for GM's that run AP's who activly care about their GM Stars to be able to gain them...
The star program is strictly a PFS mechanism to reward GM's for running PFS events. While it is obvious that the more you GM, regardless of campaign, the better you should be, anything within PFS that would reward a player for having more stars than someone else is based on their sacrifices for OP not necessarily to their overall skill as a GM. If a 5-star GM is selected over you to GM at say GenCon, it is a merely a reward for giving so much of their time to the community. It should not cheapen your investment. I think that adding non-PFS events to the star program would muddle the reward. YMMV.
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I think that my original point has been derailed. My original point was that with this AP so closely tied to the Pathfinder Society, I was hoping that maybe there might be some support so that I might be able to somehow have a connection to the AP with a PFS character or even play the AP in structured PFS legal sessions.
I know that it is not likely, and probably would have to designed with that intention in mind, but it would be neat to know that you might be able to get a little boon from owning the AP, much like Pathfinder Tales, even if you cannot play through it with a PFS character.
Thank you all, though for your thoughts on this matter! The original reason why I tried posting this was James Jacobs' suggestion in a previous post up in the Shattered Star section to try asking Mike or Mark.
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I know that it is not likely, and probably would have to designed with that intention in mind, but it would be neat to know that you might be able to get a little boon from owning the AP, much like Pathfinder Tales, even if you cannot play through it with a PFS character.
Most of my arguments are against table credit/Chronicles which grant XP & GP. But I do agree that a boon similar to Pathfinder Tales/Quests would be really neat.
EDIT: To clarify, boons that could be applied to a PFS character.
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Just as an update, we are watching this thread closely and discussed this very topic for almost an hour today in our PFS weekly meeting. Stay tuned for more details in the coming weeks.
Color me interested in knowing more, I seriously considered buying the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition book the other day, but the GF didn't want it because she felt it was too expensive for only equipment and spells for our PFS characters.
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If you have never played Rise of the Runelords you are really missing out. Even though it is not PFS you could always run a home game for it. It is a very rich and IMO awesome adventure path. It was my first experience running anything paizo related and it was the thing that converted me to PFS play simply because of the experience I had running it and the great story it told.
I would love to see something for people who run ap's to get some sort of reward in PFS, but I think a system would need to be in place to verify that players have actually played it in order to get credit in PFS in one manner or another. AP's tend to fall in the home game group much more and gms are not bound by society rules like a PFS gm is.
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How about APs remain as APs and PFS remains as PFS?
The tone and intensity of the plot is a lot thicker in APs, and would serve the cause a lot better if these two entirely different campaigns don't mix up together.
And for another point; a character in Shattered Star would preferably just be in the AP, not suddenly jump to an entirely different location.
We already have modules that are sanctioned for PFS use. I personally feel that the environment we live in now gives us 'too much' freedom over all these things. Another thread has repeatedly said that more restrictions would make finding new stuff a lot more rewarding, and would probably make people seek these rewards.
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First, I already have conceded that it is probably not going to happen, simply because of the logistics of character tracking that is needed for PFS to work. I am eagerly waiting for the announcement that Mike is going to make in the near future. However, I am mostly addressing two posts in particular...
I respectfully disagree with you both (Paz and Deussu.) There is almost always time within an AP to do PFS scenarios. As a Pathfinder Society member, you are expected to be given missions that could take you anywhere. When I was running Rise of the Runelords, one of my players wanted to become a Pathfinder, and traveled to Absalom with the other PCs between Burnt Offerings and Skinsaw (where it is suggested to give some time between the books.) While there I ran a heavily modified Cayden's Hall scenario (can't for the life of me remember the name... >.<).
However, I am not suggesting doing that for any AP other than Shattered Star, as it is already steeped in the Pathfinder Society. This AP was described as experimental (if I am remembering correctly before it was officially announced) and this is just an additional step towards the experimental-ity of the spirit.
I think, though, by the third or fourth book, the plot should be rolling hard enough that any PFS distractions might be unwelcome by the players...
Now, having said all of that, I respect your point of view. I am similar in other aspects of the game. Thanks for chiming in!
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Well, here's a proposal that could tie the AP closer to PFS.
If, during the course of the adventure path, the PCs take any official Pathfinder Society scenario as a side adventure, the players receive a Chronicle for the scenario as if they had played it with a pre-gen. (They need to register a character number so that the GM can report them.) The GM gets a Chronicle and a star-point.
PCs in an Adventure Path aren't going to be PFS legal. (They're probably built on 15 points. They might not have traits, and the probably don't have factions. Depending on how the campaign has gone, and whether the party wizard has crafting feats, the party might be well behind or ahead of the WBL curve.) So we shouldn't give those PCs Chronicles.
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@Kinevon - Yes! That's the one... ^_^ Memory failing at 4:30 in the morning... :p
@ Chris - that's a pretty neat idea, but the Chronicle that I wanted was not one for credit, but more like the ones given for purchasing Pathfinder Tales. I am currently working on a way to make running Shattered Star a little more like PFS. I am going to have to create my own Chronicle Sheets for the AP, but it should be pretty neat...
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I personally know of a few people who have become disillusioned with PFS based on several different factors (that I wont list as its another ball of wax) but absolutely love the AP's while the GM is not of the same opinion and running it because they were asked to
now I'm not suggesting that GM's receive a chronicle ...but that they have the option of running an AP, reporting it, and receive table credit as if they had run X amount of PFS scenarios (maybe 3 per book since sanctioned modules grant 2)
This is not being snarky in any way. It is asked in a matter of fact tone and curiosity. If they are disillusioned with PFS and don't participate in the campaign any longer, why do they care about how many PFS GM stars they have or how many PFS games they are credited with?
Also, please email me with the ball of wax so I am aware.
As far as the star rating for GM’s piece of this discussion goes, I guess it comes down to the question of what is the purpose of that rating. Is it simply to indicate the number of PFS scenarios a given GM has run or is it to be a representation of the overall experience and potential quality of the GM? I ask this because it is beyond cavil that properly running an Adventure Path is much more demanding and involved than running a PFS scenario. A good GM can sit down and in an hour be ready to run a PFS scenario he or she had never seen before as it is simply an adventure vignette compared to the complexity of an AP. If Paizo really did want to attach a chevron indicating total overall experience of a GM, should not experience running their most demanding product be factored in?
I want to make sure that these comments are not taken to be anyway demeaning to those who have accomplished a high star rating. I am constantly impressed by your dedication to the cause and this only works because of your volunteer efforts.
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I'm definitely on the side of keeping these two worlds separate. PFS and the APs are very different environments and I play each for very different reasons. I don't see an easy way to combine them for a lot of the reasons already stated above.
Further the GM who runs an AP is not necessarily ready to Judge PFS. So giving an AP judge a bunch of stars for their efforts there doesn't carry over to PFS in my mind. The reverse is also true - it's a different style. The long game vs the short game. All the 'house rules' of a PFS environment. Crafting. Factions. The list goes on.
Frankly I don't see the advantage either from Paizo's perspective. What is to be gained by this mashup?
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Frankly I don't see the advantage either from Paizo's perspective. What is to be gained by this mashup?
More players for PFS, for one thing.
None of the players in my weekend tabletop game are PFS members. They know about it (mostly because my wife and I vanish every now and then for a convention), but other than that their opinions range from "can't really be bothered to find out about it" to "I know enough to know I won't like it".
Being able to say "Oh, by the way - that little excursion was a PFS quest/scenario; it would earn you this if you were PFS members" (handing out boon) might persuade one or two of them to turn up at a PFS game night.
I don't know if it would work the other way - I'm sure most PFS players already know about Adventure Paths - but I don't see how it could hurt.
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I think a better idea would be to make AP-like adventures spacifically desinged for PFS. It would be great for multi-slot conventions and game days.
Adjusting exsisting APs would be difficult since no AP that I know of to date was developed with PFS time restraints in mind or indeed a timed schedule at all. You finish a chapter when you finish a chapter.
The only way I can think of releasing exsisting APs to PFS would be to completely re-design the exsisting AP storyline to suit PFS. Then releasing a new book with the PFS version of the same AP. I actually would be willing to pay to pick up both versions.
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. . .APs and PFS are apples and oranges, people. They don't need to meet and the fruit salad would taste mighty funny.
APs and PFS are apples and oranges, but that is because you are comparing an organization to an adventure path. Modules and APs are very simular.
Modules have seen a lot of success in PFS, expanded the available playable games and increased the hard level cap. I think APs if properly designed would do well in PFS as well.
What is your argument for not introducing APs?
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You know what would be really nice?
It would be really nice if PFS provided some sort of "nudge" towards trying out Adventure Paths. Within the local PFS group, APs are mentioned, but they're difficult to even gauge interest for, because PFS can become like a black hole of conversation. Some sort of incentive would at least get the conversation going, give PFS members a reason to talk about Paizo's premier product line, and would help make the leap towards forming AP groups.
Thinking off the top of my head, it doesn't even have to be a very large incentive. A mere boon for PFS characters on par with the Tales novels, earned by completing a book of an AP, would be enough to get things going.
-Matt
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Mortifier,
The difference between a module and an entire campaign is that, well, at the end of a module you can go back to standard PFS scenarios. If you run a character through an adventure path, he'll be 16th level or so. Congratulations, here's a Chronicle sheet good for 45 XP and 60 Prestige. Oh, and you can purchase potions of bull's strength.
--+--
Matt,
That's tricky, as the AP is the table GM's baby. If I were running an Adventure Path, and one of my players sat down with a boon that announced that she had the right to some bonus or item or something, I know what I would say, and it would begin with a derisive snort.
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Mortifier,
The difference between a module and an entire campaign is that, well, at the end of a module you can go back to standard PFS scenarios. If you run a character through an adventure path, he'll be 16th level or so. Congratulations, here's a Chronicle sheet good for 45 XP and 60 Prestige. Oh, and you can purchase potions of bull's strength.
--+--
Matt,
That's tricky, as the AP is the table GM's baby. If I were running an Adventure Path, and one of my players sat down with a boon that announced that she had the right to some bonus or item or something, I know what I would say, and it would begin with a derisive snort.
Chris,
I think he means something like a Chronicle with a minor boon or item access that would be given to a standard PFS PC, like a Pathfinder Tales or Quest chronicle.
"John Henry has played part 1 of 6 in the XYZ Adventure Path. His PFS PC now gains a boon of +2 to one Diplomacy, Intimidate or Sense Motive check against a native of country Y, and access to purchase a weapon/item modeled after something the PCs should have found playing the AR."