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Half what?


Advice

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Ok so we have this new guy coming in and he wants to play a half-orc/half-elf. mother was a half-elf raped by orc raiding party. How the heck would you do the stats on that.

Shadow Lodge

It favors either the mother or the father. It is either a half-elf or a half-orc. Tell him to pick one. Check the Advanced Race Guide for alternate racial features to flavor it towards the other half.

Consider the Forest Walker and Scavenger alternate racial traits on a half-orc character.

Silver Crusade

6 people marked this as a favorite.
tifton wrote:
Ok so we have this new guy coming in and he wants to play a half-orc/half-elf. mother was a half-elf rapped by orc raiding party. How the heck would you do the stats on that.

I can already tell this is going to go swimmingly.

Taldor

A friend of mine played a half orc, half halfling once. Called it a "three-quarterling." I don't remember what his stats were though. Completely unhelpful. Sorry.


19 people marked this as a favorite.

He wants to be a special snowflake race and has casually tossed in some rape for his backstory. This isn't the sort of player who deserves any favors.

Unless, of course, the mother was merely challenged to a rap battle by the orcs. In which case this is the greatest character concept and you should absolutely make a homebrew race to accommodate it.

Silver Crusade

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Roberta Yang wrote:
Unless, of course, the mother was merely challenged to a rap battle by the orcs. In which case this is the greatest character concept and you should absolutely make a homebrew race to accommodate it.

Winning.


If it's rapped, then I guess it isn't so bad, is it? Just some Orcs playing ghetto with some half-elf woman of a mature age.

If it was raped on the other hand, then yes, it is quite horrible...back on topic, though...

The way genetics work is that there are Dominant and Recessive genes. While you can let the player pick which gene is dominant or recessive (AKA, the genes the PC received), he must pick either Half-Orc or Half-Elf for the race. While he can have a mixture of both elements (AKA, have the Adopted racial trait to count for both Orcish and Human and Elf for the purpose of pre-reqs for feats and the such), he can't have both the benefits of each race combined equally.

With that said, I would allow the character to trade any of his traits equally for both Half-Elf and Half-Orc traits should there not be any correlatory connections. (AKA, have Multi-Talented be transformed into Ferocity to signify the Orcish blood flowing through him, etc.) I wouldn't allow the PC to receive both benefits entirely.

Of course, this is how I would do things; it would obviously vary between PFS sessions, and of course your sessions in terms of how you would want to do things.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Who is to say that an Elf and a Orc are cross fertile. Humans have a history of being able to mate with almost anything and produce a child, but other than with humans neither of the races have a history of cross breeds.

If you choose to allow this just use the race building options in the ARG. Elves are a 10pt race and Orcs are an 8pt race give him 9 points and let him build his own race.


Give 'em slightly fairer skin than a normal half orc and say "ta'da! all done!"

The ability scores of the Half Orc are from the human side, the rest of the stuff is from the orc side.. if the PC really wanted to push being a special snowflake then change orc blood to orc/elf and tell them their +2 has to be either in Int or Dex.

-S

Shadow Lodge

Isn't pathfinder a world where creationism is true? The gods (which are absolutely real, are right over there, and grant me powers for worshiping them) created the races, didn't they?. I know that's the case for D&D, but I'm not sure about pathfinder. If that's the case, genetics might play a significantly less important of a role.


bookrat wrote:
Isn't pathfinder a world where creationism is true? The gods (which are absolutely real, are right over there, and grant me powers for worshiping them) created the races, didn't they?. I know that's the case for D&D, but I'm not sure about pathfinder. If that's the case, genetics might play a significantly less important of a role.

In a standard concept, the way I explained would state how it works. Back in the olden days, people used stories and deities (and the such) to explain what could otherwise not be logically explained.

Of course, the Deities (with their stated powers) could very well alter such concepts as to how they deem fit/worthy, but such a thing is, of course, left to GM fiat/discretion. :)


I'd simply make it a Half-Orc and put it's ability modifier in Dex.


Have them pick half orc or half elf for racial stats add x blooded trait and have the physical features be different than either. All he gains this way is an increased chance of being bane or favored enemy target.

We have had several half-dworcs in our games however this is just what we call it when an orc gets reincarnated as a dwarf. Happens alot more than one would think usually by the same PC, our derek and his fighter barbarians.

Osirion

6 people marked this as a favorite.

People keep harping on the player for the rape in his back story. Now I'm not saying I like it, but this shouldn't be that surprising considering how it is highly implied in the description that is how half-orcs usually come into being (at least back in 3.5). So unless orcs aren't marauding evil sidistic scum in your world (which is possible), a few half-orcs are going to have similar back story. I say as long as it isn't the main focus of the character concept and doesn't bring it up all the time work with the player.

As someone else suggested, I say build a race around the same racial point cost as half-orcs and half-elves.


Prospector is right, except instead of 'heavily implied' it's more like 'outright stated in different words'.

Page 25 of PFRPG Core Rulebook wrote:

Half-orcs are monstrosities, their tragic births the result

of perversion and violence—or at least, that’s how other
races see them. It’s true that half-orcs are rarely the result
of loving unions
, and as such are usually forced to grow
up hard and fast, constantly fighting for protection or to
make names for themselves.

I'm pretty sure that's okay to quote, since it's also on the SRD.

But anyway, I've always seen this sort of thing as RP flavor, not mechanics. Why can't he describe his crossblooded nature by putting his stat bonus in Strength or Intelligence, like Selgard suggested?

As for the gods, I've always gotten the implication that the PF pantheon is composed in large part of clockmaker gods, up to and including an automated system for granting spells and causing divine casters to fall when they aren't doing what they are supposed to. Of course, it could be that I haven't read enough of the backstory for the setting.


You are a half elf with small tuscks and bronzed skin
or
You are a half orc with fair skin and knife ears.

Done

Silver Crusade

If you are a union of a half elf and an orc, you're not half elf, half orc

You're half orc, 1/4 elf, and 1/4 human.


Mongrelman.

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.

half-elf + half-orc = human?

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Half Elf Sorc with Orc bloodline.

Or just a human, since he is twice as much human as he is elf or orc


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Based on the OP's description, it was a union between an Orc and a Half-Elf, not a Half-Orc and a Half-Elf.

Therefore:

50% Orc
25% Elf
25% Human

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In that case it is just a half orc.


ulgulanoth wrote:
half-elf + half-orc = human?

Half-Orc of a drunken Half-Elf + Orc at a "OMG, what did I do last night?" party


I believe he would be an "orctoroon". Hehe.

Osirion

wolfman1911 wrote:
*stuff*

Thanks Wolfman. I had just got off a long day of work and had not looked at the half-orc description in a while.

Oh, I seem to remember a 3.5 3rd party book called something like 'Bastards and Bloodlines' that had some good mechanics for what races could have viable offspring plus what the chances of were for unions of half-[insert non-human race here]. That might help.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
TOZ wrote:

Check the Advanced Race Guide for alternate racial features to flavor it towards the other half.

Consider the Forest Walker and Scavenger alternate racial traits on a half-orc character.


If you have the Advanced Race Guide, just let him create the race but restrict him to traits that are available only to elves and orcs. Make sure he chooses at least one ability from each race. As for the stats, I would let him choose the setting he wants from the list of options. Just give him 10 points and let him have fun.


tifton wrote:
Ok so we have this new guy coming in and he wants to play a half-orc/half-elf. mother was a half-elf raped by orc raiding party. How the heck would you do the stats on that.

No special modifiers. Either he takes the half-orc traits or the half-elf traits when it comes to character gen/modifiers and the "other half" is flavor text/character background with no relevant in-game bonuses or penalties... beyond the social stigma of probably being viewed as an abomination by both elves and orcs.

Run that by your player and see if he still likes the character concept. If he does, great, you still have a balanced race and a plot hook to stick in his mouth. If not, great, he'll choose a less controversial race for his character. Win/win.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
If you have the Advanced Race Guide, just let him create the race but restrict him to traits that are available only to elves and orcs. Make sure he chooses at least one ability from each race. As for the stats, I would let him choose the setting he wants from the list of options. Just give him 10 points and let him have fun.

This. That would probably be best.

However I might do things a little differently. It's been a while since I did genetic typing in highschool, but he's really only got 2 outcomes:

--------Elf------Human
Orc---Orc-Elf---Half-Orc

Orc---Orc-Elf---Half-Orc

So... He'd either be a normal half-orc or a half-orc/half-elf.

I'd probably have him flip a coin on it. If he fails the call, he's just a half-orc with some extra rp elements. If he calls it, then I'd let him make his 10 point half-breed between orc and elf, not any of the human elements showing through. But I'm a bit wierd like that lol.


Damn it, that guy is into complicated genetics. I once made rules for Elf/Orc-Hybrids for 11 RP.

-0 Humanoid (elf, orc)
-0 Normal movement speed
-0 Standard Language Array. As elves.
-2 Flexible modifiers (+2 Str, +2 Dex)
-2 Orc Ferocity
-2 Elven Immunities
-2 Skill bonus (Perception)
-1 Low-light vision
-2 Darkvision 60 ft.

No idea how I would build 25% humanity in there.


Navarion wrote:

Damn it, that guy is into complicated genetics. I once made rules for Elf/Orc-Hybrids for 11 RP.

-0 Humanoid (elf, orc)
-0 Normal movement speed
-0 Standard Language Array. As elves.
-2 Flexible modifiers (+2 Str, +2 Dex)
-2 Orc Ferocity
-2 Elven Immunities
-2 Skill bonus (Perception)
-1 Low-light vision
-2 Darkvision 60 ft.

No idea how I would build 25% humanity in there.

If it was me, I'd make them human, racial heritage (elf), and adopted (orc), and let them make their own appearance. be nice to know what he really wants put of the races, but that's where I'd start.


BB36 wrote:
ulgulanoth wrote:
half-elf + half-orc = human?
Half-Orc of a drunken Half-Elf + Orc at a "OMG, what did I do last night?" party

I was at that party. Oh Crappo-ducks! Was that you?!

Andoran

Coridan wrote:
Half Elf Sorc with Orc bloodline.

Or Half-Elf Oracle with Eldritch Heritage : Orc Bloodline.

I suggested this to one of my players who had a similar request (apparently based on a character in a novel) and wants to go the Rage Prophet way in Jade Regent.

She is rather keen on using the Half-Orc base though. I still have hope of getting her to see things my way.

Shadow Lodge

Darth Grall wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
If you have the Advanced Race Guide, just let him create the race but restrict him to traits that are available only to elves and orcs. Make sure he chooses at least one ability from each race. As for the stats, I would let him choose the setting he wants from the list of options. Just give him 10 points and let him have fun.

This. That would probably be best.

However I might do things a little differently. It's been a while since I did genetic typing in highschool, but he's really only got 2 outcomes:

--------Elf------Human
Orc---Orc-Elf---Half-Orc

Orc---Orc-Elf---Half-Orc

So... He'd either be a normal half-orc or a half-orc/half-elf.

I'd probably have him flip a coin on it. If he fails the call, he's just a half-orc with some extra rp elements. If he calls it, then I'd let him make his 10 point half-breed between orc and elf, not any of the human elements showing through. But I'm a bit wierd like that lol.

Heh. You're entire race and racial characteristics are determined by a single genotype. Creationism is true and the gods keep it simple. :)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

He could play a human with the Adoptive Parentage alternate racial trait, and the Racial Heritage feat.
He will have all bases covered.


That's almost exactly what said a few posts back


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

More or less.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Actually, with the way Pathfinder genetics seem to work, he could also be a Tiefling or Aasamir.


I rapped you so bad, my super galactic sounds ripped through your genetics, got you pregnant and created an Elf-audi-Orc-Man.

Brilliant.

If the guy has an in depth back story then having a raped mother would be acceptable, but it'd have to be a pretty good story to explain even how his character knew his mother was raped. It's not something you say lightly and in fact, it's not something you'd want to tell anyone about, not even your son.

Sooooo. Also, I don't know if you could really legitimately mix Half Races.

If you compare to real life, animals can have sex with many other animals, but they don't make magnificently weird cross breeds because simply put, their DNA doesn't allow for it. It probably fights off the "creation juice" as some kind of bacteria, rejecting anything foreign to what its genetics know.

Granted you could say you can mix an Elf with a Human to make a Half-Elf or an Orc with a Human to make a Half-Orc, but you can't mix an Elf with an Orc to make an Elf-Orc, so I'd say Elf and Orc Clash, meaning the only logical outcome would be a Half-Elf as that's already built into the mothers genetics.

Whatever though. If you want a new race in your campaign, then do what someone above suggested and have it so he chooses one, but takes traits and possibly feats for flavour to act as though he has a three way blood heritage going on.

Shadow Lodge

Animals similar enough are able to cross breed. Polar bears and grizzlies have cross bred. So have lions and tigers. Lion and leopard. Horse and donkey are well known. Zebra anf horse. Lama and camel. Wolf and dog. Dolphin and false killer whale.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

A better question is:
What does he want from half-elf, and what does he want from half-orc?


As fun as this thread is to read, I can't wait for someone to propose a One-Third-Elf or One-Third-Orc (or both!). We'll let the geneticists figure out how that can happen.


bookrat wrote:
Animals similar enough are able to cross breed. Polar bears and grizzlies have cross bred. So have lions and tigers. Lion and leopard. Horse and donkey are well known. Zebra anf horse. Lama and camel. Wolf and dog. Dolphin and false killer whale.

Yea, but that's because they all come under the same type.

In order: Bears, Cats, Dogs etc.

An Elf is a separate race entirely to an Orc.

An Orc may have Human features and so may an Elf, but an Elf and an Orc are very different.

To say they qualify for cross breeding is to say a Giant can have sex with a Halfling and create a Half Giant......which is impossible.

They may be humanoid, but ultimately they're not human. Only some creatures are and if it were possible for an Elf and an Orc to make an Elf-Orc, the game would already have Elf-Orc listed as a Race to play as.

What a strange concept though.....a pretty Orc? Hmm.

Same types mix, which is why you have Cats in the form of Lions, Tigers, Leopards, Cheetah's, house cats etc. Different breeds within the same type can breed, but these Races work as different Race Types, so it doesn't apply.

Shadow Lodge

Well, being a fantasy game, there's no definitive answer. :)

It's difficult to compare to real life genetics in this fashion, as not all cats can interbreed, and other similar animals who can interbreed produce infertile offspring, such as the mule. And while a donkey and a horse belong to the same genus, they are separate species.

With the Advanced Race Guide, though, one could make any number of crossbreeds and bring them into the game.

Remember, in biology, "race" is differences within the same species. We can assume in the fantasy game, "race" is different species, but we've already shown different species being able to cross breed. But they are the same genus?

So elf, human, orc, dwarf, etc.. are all different species, but are they so different that we'd classify them as different genera or even different families? I think with showing half-elf and half-orc, orcs, elves, and humans must all be in the same genus. So while elf and orc may have not diverged genetically enough from human to prevent crossbreeding, they could easily have diverged enough from each other. Or maybe they haven't, and you use the ARG to make a new crossbreed. :)


I think some people are putting too much effort into this. It's a fantasy game and really, the only thing that matters is that the race is balanced and fun to play. There have been several options put forward, some of which can be combined, to make a very interesting elf/orc character. Through a combination of feats, racial abilities, and traits, it should be easy to create this race. With a little creativity it should be easy to make it plausible too. Maybe the union wasn't just as described but some magic came into play too. Maybe the stars were just right (or wrong). Maybe there is a prophesy. Maybe both parents had some human blood in them but not enough to dilute the parent race. There are plenty of options. No need to over think it.

Shadow Lodge

As others have pointed out, the character is actually 50% orc, 25% human, 25% elf. The simplest thing to do is to make the character a half-orc with Racial Heritage (Elf), and swap out a few racial traits for flavour. If you feel like being accomodating, you can use the ARG to make an 8-10 point race using only orc, elf, and human traits - I'd favour orc due to the above genetic breakdown. If you use Navarion's selections with the Human Heritage +2 to any ability score instead of Flexible (+2 Str, +2 Dex), the race will be 9 RP and retains a link to the adaptable human base.

Now I feel like using the ARG to make some more hybrids. Halfling-gnomes, gnome-dwarves, Elven dhampir... dog breeds can get pretty darn divergent without becoming genetically incompatible, so why not the humanoid races?


I would probably go with using Human as the base race, select the Adoptive Parentage (Elf) alternate racial trait, and take the Racial Heritage (Orc) feat. I would give the racial ability score bonus to strength even if that is not mechanically the best choice. These choices would seem to give appropriate game mechanics for such a racial combination.


Hmm. I know that in one version of D&D it explicitly said that this was impossible; that genetically speaking orcs and elves just can not crossbreed at all. I don't know if that's explicitly stated in pathfinder, but I've always assumed that was the case.

Layout and Design, Frog God Games

bookrat wrote:

Well, being a fantasy game, there's no definitive answer. :)

It's difficult to compare to real life genetics in this fashion, as not all cats can interbreed, and other similar animals who can interbreed produce infertile offspring, such as the mule. And while a donkey and a horse belong to the same genus, they are separate species.

With the Advanced Race Guide, though, one could make any number of crossbreeds and bring them into the game.

Remember, in biology, "race" is differences within the same species. We can assume in the fantasy game, "race" is different species, but we've already shown different species being able to cross breed. But they are the same genus?

So elf, human, orc, dwarf, etc.. are all different species, but are they so different that we'd classify them as different genera or even different families? I think with showing half-elf and half-orc, orcs, elves, and humans must all be in the same genus. So while elf and orc may have not diverged genetically enough from human to prevent crossbreeding, they could easily have diverged enough from each other. Or maybe they haven't, and you use the ARG to make a new crossbreed. :)

Well, if we're going to look at the real world for this we should stick to Hominids. There is ample genetic evidence that Homo Sapiens (Cro-Magnons) and Homo Neanderthalensis (Neanderthals) interbred and had viable children. There is a question of fertility as modern genetics shows that we do not have any neanderthal DNA in our genetic code. That may also be explained away by the near-extinction of our species (at one point our species may have been reduced to as few as 2,000 individuals).

To address the OP — I would personally make him a half-orc with some indication of his elven heritage. Odd eye or hair color or such, and leave it at that.


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We picked up a copy of Advanced Race Guide. Just going to do a 10 point half-orc half-elf mash up.

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