Two Bladed Sword: Useless?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I really want to make an effective character based around using a two bladed sword, but I'm wondering if it's possible. Neither end is a light weapon, so using it will come with stiff TWF penalties. Is it possible that a weapon like this could be worthwhile?


The PRD wrote:
Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

Emphasized the parts that answer your question.


A player of mine has been using a two-blade sword build for some time now, and it is awesome.
Apart from the fact it is considered like wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, you can charge a foe using it two handed (and as such inflicting 1,5x strength mod.) and the following round change handling as a free action and using all of the attacks you can do with a TWF weapon without having to change weapons.


It's not useless, but it could definitely be better. One die size increase and a crit threat upgrade are all it offers over the simple, free quarterstaff. If there's a martial weapon with the 19-20/x2 but only d6 damage, I'd take that instead in a heartbeat and save the feat on exotic proficiency.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
It's not useless, but it could definitely be better. One die size increase and a crit threat upgrade are all it offers over the simple, free quarterstaff. If there's a martial weapon with the 19-20/x2 but only d6 damage, I'd take that instead in a heartbeat and save the feat on exotic proficiency.

You mean 2 shortswords?


Well, 2 short swords doesn't have the option to 2H for more str to damage when you can't full attack, but yeah, basically. Just not sure what martial double weapon options there are off the top of my head.

Liberty's Edge

Orc double axe, urgosh, double sword, boarding pike, double waraxe, flail, etc. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons and control+f for "double." The two-bladed sword is the only 19-20 crit range, and is an excellent weapon if one wants to twf. A half elf can get exotic weapon prof. for free, instead of skill focus. Other weapons can be used with the appropriate race and prof. in martial weapons.

The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think they're great. my first PFS character is 16th level and is a barbarian2/fighter 14, using the two-bladed sword. make one end mithril, one end adamantine, and go to town.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Well, 2 short swords doesn't have the option to 2H for more str to damage when you can't full attack, but yeah, basically. Just not sure what martial double weapon options there are off the top of my head.

There are no martial double weapons that I know of unless you're a half-orc, dwarf, or gnome.

Being a 19-20 crit weapon alone is worth a feat. It's improved critical (quarterstaff) that stacks with improved critical or keen. The d8s are gravy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The advantage of a two sided weapon (which makes it worth it if you're going to go down the path of self flagellation that is two weapon fighting) is that when you can't make a full attack (which is often) you at least get 1.5X strength on your one attack


You've gotta ask yourself the question, "Is it worth a feat to dual-wield longswords as if my offhand were a light weapon?"

If the answer is "yes," then it's worth the EWP to get a Two-Bladed Sword.
If the answer is "no," then why not just play a race that offers a trait that allows a free prof? Half-elf and Kenku come to mind.


Huh. I honestly expected to hear more about not having to drop a double weapon to use the other hand for something. That doesn't come up much?


I prefer to Pair a Scimiter and Cestus for the same reason the two bladed sword is good.

Low penalties, good crit range, and you can two Hand the scimitar when you charge.
You can also Fight one handed and use your other hand for something else. (Drawing a wand for example). You cannot attack with the two bladed sword 1handed.


Can be good, but I ruled they are not weapons to use in confined spaces when your allies are around. Which led to hilarious hijinks.

Scim and cestus, good call.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Only downside to Scim and Cestus being that whole "they use different feats" thing. :\


True but if you are a fighter weapon training means you don't care much.

If you go two weapon warrior then once you.get improved balance and double strike you switch to Dual Wield Scimitar's cause you can AOO TWF or TWF+move.

If you are a ranger- FE, Instant Enemy and Big Game Hunter means you don't care.

Getting double duty of Weapon Focus is good but unless you are a fighter, weapon focus is a waste.


isnt the best TWF item in the game 2x wakazashi? singular feat progression, high crit range, cool looking...

The Exchange

Neo2151 wrote:

You've gotta ask yourself the question, "Is it worth a feat to dual-wield longswords as if my offhand were a light weapon?"

If the answer is "yes," then it's worth the EWP to get a Two-Bladed Sword.
If the answer is "no," then why not just play a race that offers a trait that allows a free prof? Half-elf and Kenku come to mind.

Humans get a free feat for the proficiency, why not use that?

The Exchange

Fredrik wrote:
Huh. I honestly expected to hear more about not having to drop a double weapon to use the other hand for something. That doesn't come up much?

You can hold the double sword without using it. If you're drawing a wand (why a fighter would do this I don't know) you simply can't use the double sword when you've got something in the other hand.

The Exchange

Orc Boyz wrote:
isnt the best TWF item in the game 2x wakazashi? singular feat progression, high crit range, cool looking...

yeah, but I think you lose a BAB splashing ninja for for proficiency.


I prefer using a Two-handed weapon such as the Earthbreaker and armor spikes as my second weapon. May not be optimum... but I love it.


Worst case scenario: Play Tengu, use the dex bonus to qualify for your TWF feats. You automatically have the proficiency for the two-bladed sword as a Tengu.


Exotic Weapon Proficiency Sawtooth Sabre: For the purposes of TWF the offhand weapon counts as a light weapon.

Can wield Sawtooth Sabres as a longsword (two-handed), longsword (one-handed) and TWF with them.

VS:

Double Bladed Sword as a Longsword (twohanded), and TWF with it.

I know my choice (Sawtooth Sabre).

- Gauss

The Exchange

Gauss wrote:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency Sawtooth Sabre: For the purposes of TWF the offhand weapon counts as a light weapon.

Can wield Sawtooth Sabres as a longsword (two-handed), longsword (one-handed) and TWF with them.

VS:

Double Bladed Sword as a Longsword (twohanded), and TWF with it.

I know my choice (Sawtooth Sabre).

- Gauss

so it still takes a feat, same damage and crit as a double sword, but doesn't have the flexibility to switch between two-handed and TWF that a double sword can.

Sczarni

If your GM rules that "grip shifting" is a free action then the 2 bladed sword becomes excellent because all your AoO's get 1.5x STR + 3:1 Power Attack.

Otherwise it's still a good weapon that works great for specific builds.


I'm pretty sure that one of the forum going Paizo employees has indicated that free action grip shifting is RAI at least even if RAW is unclear.

Without grip shifting shield proficiency on clerics and bards is an insultingly bad joke.


You can't take a free action when doing an AoO. The only free action by RAW is speaking when it is not your turn.


this new term "grip shifting" is not on the list of actons. its not a free action, its a non action. i had this debate with my gm over a magus. i actually had to open the book to the list of actions to prove wielding a weapon isnt a listed action.


wraithstrike wrote:
You can't take a free action when doing an AoO. The only free action by RAW is speaking when it is not your turn.

But you can free action change your grip at the end and beginning of your turn, to make all AoOs 2H and then TWF on your turn. You don't need to take the free action out of turn.


Chernobyl: You can use a Sawtooth Sabre 2handed just like a double bladed sword.

Admitedly, you cannot switch to a 2handed grip while both Sawtooth Sabres are in hand, but that is not that big a deal imo.

- Gauss


It's not a free action to sheath a sawtooth sabre so you can't tae AoOs two handed. You're selling your EWP for a paltry +1 damage. If you use a gauntlet of storing you're wasting money and your glove slot when you could just be using a double sword.

Sczarni

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
You can't take a free action when doing an AoO. The only free action by RAW is speaking when it is not your turn.
But you can free action change your grip at the end and beginning of your turn, to make all AoOs 2H and then TWF on your turn. You don't need to take the free action out of turn.

If it is a free action by RAW/RAI I'll have to consider that dex dumped ranger for PFS after all.!!!


Atarlost:

The difference to me is that I would rather have the AC bonus of a shield the first round of combat (where I am probably flat-footed) while I still have a _usable_ weapon in hand.

Example 1 (Sawtooth Sabre):

Surprise Round: Sawtooth Sabre + Quickdraw Light Shield. I get attacked flatfooted. Then I have a choice. I can:
A) Put away the quickdraw light shield and attack 2-handed.
B) Attack 1handed and keep the shield bonus until next round.
C) anything else that is not relevant to this discussion.

Round 1: Put away quickdraw light shield (free action), quickdraw second Sawtooth Sabre (free action), make full attack using TWF.

Example 2 (Double bladed-sword):

Surprise Round: Double Bladed-sword + Quickdraw Light Shield. I get attacked Flattfooted. Then I have a choice. I can:
A) Put away the quickdraw light shield and attack 2-handed.
B) Do anything else that is not relevant to this discussion.

Note: A double weapon has no 1handed attack option that keeps my shield in play if I want it.

My experience when it comes to TWF and THF is that a shield IS needed early in a battle while you are flat-footed because with no dexterity or dodge bonuses you can can get savaged before you even knew what hit you.

The two examples above assume that you made your perception check, something many martial characters fail to do, but then failed their initative check, which is also something many martial characters fail to do. If you fail your perception THEN you have both the surprise round and round 1 (assuming you lost initative in round 1) to suffer the damage of a surprise attacker.

While I agree, the 2handed grip on the double bladed sword does allow for a 2handed Attack of Opportunity it is just not worth it enough for me to lose the shield bonus when I want it.

- Gauss


You're still absolutely wasting a feat on sawtooth sabres. +1 damage is half a feat.

If you're considering TWF and care about weapon type you're probably a fighter. If you're pumping your dex only as much as required for TWF +1 to have an even multiplier you will be nearly as tough flatfooted as a normal two hander. There's no penalty to having max dex above your armor's limits if you're more frightened of being flat footed than of touch attacks.

At level 1 you're probably in light armor for mobility. You need 15 dex. Make that 16 and it's a +3 modifier. Any light armor will have dex bonus to spare. You can go ahead and wear a breastplate if mobility isn't important.
At level 6 you need 17 dex. Make that 18 and it's a +4 modifier. You have armor training 1 so you want medium armor. Hey, for you a breastplate has a +4 max dex. That's probably the same armor a two handed weapon user would wear. It's where a ranger would stop. If you can afford mithril you're in full plate.
At level 11 you need 19 dex. Make it 20 and it's a +5 modifier. You can certainly afford mithril by now and be in full plate, or with armor training 4 take -1 AC (-2 touch) and get into adamantine for the DR.
At level 15 you'll be able to wear adamantine full plate without compromising your dex bonus.

If that's not enough flat-footed protection maybe you should just TWFing with shield bashes.


Atarlost:

I agree that compared to 2 light weapons Sawtooth Sabres and Double-Bladed Swords are a wasted feat. My original statement is that compared to a Double-Bladed sword I would prefer the Sawtooth Sabres. They both cost an exotic weapon proficiency.

As for your calculations: Mithral Chain Shirt loses versus Mithral Full Plate. -2AC with both having max dex. Adamantine armor isn't worth it.

As for flat-footed protection. You keep factoring Dex in. Don't forget there is no dex bonus while flat-footed.

In one example I have seen how a 2-handed Paladin often got hit hard up front. Then she started using a shield which she drops after the initial onslaught. Her AC was pretty maxed out but due to being flat-footed she just took too many hits. Now she doesn't. It has made all the difference.

- Gauss


Gauss: You're missing the point. If Even if you're maxing touch AC as a fighter you'll usually be wearing the same armor whether under TWF or THF. If your dex bonus isn't maxing out mithril fullplate (it won't do so starting at level 7 at the latest, level 3 if you get at least the last +2 dex from an item you acquire later in your career) you've got the same 19 + enhancement + deflection + natural armor flat footed AC a greatsword or falchion user would have. If that's not enough for you you shouldn't be even thinking about anything but a shield bash build or a class that gets uncanny dodge. Or maybe the lookout feat in a party with a diviner and a sohei who also have it.

You're taking the very unusual position that no build other than sword and board is viable. I don't think you'll find many people agreeing with you.


Atarlost: I think you are missing MY point.

I do not like Sword and Board builds either. I DO like a shield when TWF or THF for ONLY the FIRST ROUND of combat while flat-footed.

While flat-footed your dex is at its worst (ie: none). Straight Fighters and Paladins do not have uncanny dodge. Reminder: Multiclassing is generally inferior in PF.

Lets go with your level 7 example:
+2 mithral breastplate
+1deflection
+1natural armor
+1insight
ZERO dex during the flat-footed round(s).
(also assumes two +1weapons for 4600 with 1900 left over)

Total: an AC of 21 during the flat-footed round(s).

My version:
+2mithral Breastplate
+1deflection
+1natural armor
+2quickdraw shield
ZERO dex during the flat-footed round(s).
(also assumes two +1 weapons for 4600 with 2900 left over)

Total: an AC of 23 during the flat-footed round(s). A 10% difference at level 7.

Neither the Fighter nor the Paladin classes have Perception as a class skill. At the very least this means they will be 15% behind the curve on detecting an enemy. Factor in they will usually have Wisdom as a dump stat (or +1 at most) and they will be even farther behind the curve.

So, as I said. Quickdraw+quickdraw shield = defense while flat-footed.

Back to topic at hand:
I prefer two weapons over 1 Double weapon (regardless of form) because then I can benefit from a shield (however temporarily) while still having a viable main weapon. I like flexibility. I do not think that switching to a 2handed grip on a double weapon for the purposes of AoOs is enough of a reason to not have the shield for flat-footed rounds.

You suggest using a shield for TWF. The problem with that is that it requires a greater feat investment (Improved Shield Bash and Weapon Focus-shield) when compared to the one feat investment for having Quickdraw (to use a Quickdraw shield as a free action and to quickdraw a sword). Still, it is a better defended route than the traditional TWF builds and worth considering but that isnt part of this thread's discussion.

- Gauss


If you are using a quickdraw shield with a falchion or greatsword you can use a quickdraw shield with a double sword, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

That +2 quickdraw shield is costing 4053 or 4059 and some change for +3 AC.

The difference between a mithril breastplate and mithril fullplate is a bit under 5900, which is still in budget if I ditch the insight bonus (ioun stone I presume?) that your version lacks. That's also +3 AC.

You're saving a bit less than 2000 gold by having the shield instead of better armor, but you could have a higher AC ALL THE TIME.


The RAW for "Free Actions:"

Free Actions wrote:

Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.

Cease Concentration on Spell
You can stop concentrating on a spell as a free action.

Drop an Item
Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.

Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.

Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

Emphasis mine.

RAW does not say these four actions are the only free actions available. So if a GM says grip-switching is a free action you can take when it's not your turn, then it's good enough for RAW (even ignoring the possibility of Rule 0).


Atarlost: So you suggest a +2 Mithril Fullplate costing 14500gp? Just over 61% of WBL?

Lets try that:

+2 Mithril Breastplate (8200gp)
+2 Quickdraw shield (4059gp)
+1 Deflection (2000gp)
+1 Natural Armor (2000gp)
(2) +1 Weapons (~4600gp)
Total AC w/o dex: 23 with 2641gp remaining.

VS

+2 Mithril Fullplate (14500gp)
+1 deflection (2000gp)
+1 natural armor (2000gp)
(2) +1 Weapons (~4600gp)
Total AC w/o dex: 23 with 400gp remaining

We clearly have differing opinions on this. Perhaps a +2 shield is too much money spent for a part time defensive object. Fine, a +1 still provides a significant advantage while flat-footed for minimal cost.

However, I like the options and having witnessed THFs and TWFs getting hammered in the initial round I prefer having as much AC in the initial round as possible if Uncanny Dodge is not available.

- Gauss


For half-orcs and orcs the orc double axe is quite nice because of the weapon expertise feat from ARG.
That gives a bonus which can be chosen from a nice list when using a weapon with orc in the name.

for example a shield bonus when wielding it.
Or +1 nonlethal damage in addition to the damage you normally deal. (1 nonlethal is enough for enfocer)

So if you want to make a double weapon pc take a look at that feat.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Two Bladed Sword: Useless? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.