Base Class - The Primal


Homebrew and House Rules

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My players and I had discussed trying out a game based on lycanthropy some years ago, but I never felt comfortable with it. After looking over Drejk's Metamorph and SmiloDan's Evolver classes, I decided to try my hand at it, as neither of those classes really captured what I was going for, but were very well done and as you can see from some of the abilities, good places to borrow from.

Obviously lycanthropes play a huge part in the inspiration of the removed race and now proposed class, but the idea for a Primal race was taken from and modified from Eberron's Shifters and believe it or not, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Ultimately, I decided I did not like them as a race, as they really didn't fit my vision for them, so I scrapped them and began working on a base class.

Notes/Issues:
1. I am considering adding in a means by which they may assume their humanoid, hybrid, and animal forms (using the same evolution pool). As it stands, they may only assume their humanoid and either hybrid or animal forms dependent upon what they select at level one.
2. I need to organize better.
3. I limited the choice of evolutions to remove things which are not thematic for the class; these can be found in the evolution pool entry. Based off of the wild-caller found in the ARG, I also granted them a gradual bonus of 5 total evolution points over the course of 20 levels (which is why the pool caps at 31 and not 26).
4. I've limited their armor and intended to grant them some sort of natural armor progression (I'm currently using the monk progression, with Wisdom as an instinctual basis). I've not had time to determine how this should progress yet and maintain and approximate on par armor rating with the other classes. I've considered taking the armor bonus provided by the Eidolon template, halving it, and doing some comparisons.
5. Should I grant them bonus evolution points based on Constitution modifier (i.e. 18 Consitution grants +4 pool points)?

TL;DR
Here's the class: The Primal - Rough Draft

Constructive criticism and advice is appreciated.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This looks cool! Gestalt this with a monk and you got a game of Bloody Roar!


Kryzbyn wrote:

This looks cool! Gestalt this with a monk and you got a game of Bloody Roar!

Thanks! The players in my group are going to go with a familial/tribal idea and with this class, in theory, I'll be able to have several characters of the same heritage, but manifest it in many different ways.


Another issue I kept thinking of and forgetting to jot down is what, if any abilities would be usable while in their humanoid/human form?


I had a little time today to sand down some of the rough edges:

Notes & Corrections:
1.
New table with notes regarding base form changes with limbs (arms) and limbs (legs) to correct the issue with hybrid form sharks, serpentine hybrid form, and arachnid animal and hybrid forms not having the correct amount of appendages.
2. The primal may now assume both an animal and hybrid state and both states use the same evolution pool total, since they can only assume one form at a time. Example: A 7th level tiger heritage primal may alot 11 points to his biped (hybrid) form and 11 points to his quadruped (animal) form (ultimately selecting different abilities for each, if so desired).
3. Listed the available monster feats for use as bonus feats in the entry.
4. Minor rewording on the AC bonus, which I still haven't really decided how to handle.
5. Added 2 additional barred evolutions to the list (shadow form & shadow blend).
6. Added rules regarding equipment and melding between the three forms in the Shapeshifter entry (editted to add).

The current version is listed here: The Primal - Update 9-8-2012.

Constructive criticism welcome, of course. The "hows" and the "whys" really do help.


It's good, but I see a few issues. These aren't even necessarily balance issues, either. The evolution system is a good base mechanically, but I'd love to see something more unique. It feels a lot like a synthesist, to be honest. It's certainly cooler, but mechanically I think it needs to be more different to distinguish itself. If you can come up with a whole new way for it to work, that would be great.

Also, dead levels. I see you get evolution points, but come on. Nobody likes a level like that.


The similarity to synthesist isn't a problem if you ban synthesist. :P

This is nearly identical to my 'Astral Avatar' class that drew its powers from its outsider heritage.

The problem I see here is not one of balance, but that it doesn't capture the feel of being a lycanthropic champion. Your array of evolutions are more likely to turn you into some kind of aberration.

You could do well if you changed the flavour of the class from 'shapeshifting champion of animal nature' to 'fleshwarping experimenter' or 'protean polymorpher'.


Jackissocool wrote:
It's good, but I see a few issues. These aren't even necessarily balance issues, either.

Thanks! I appreciate praise and criticism - criticism a little bit more.=)

Jackissocool wrote:
The evolution system is a good base mechanically, but I'd love to see something more unique. It feels a lot like a synthesist, to be honest. It's certainly cooler, but mechanically I think it needs to be more different to distinguish itself. If you can come up with a whole new way for it to work, that would be great.

That has been a problem for the past few years (from 3.0 to 3.5 to Pathfinder). The current arrangement using the evolution pool has been my last resort, so to speak. Up to this point, I've experimented with the primal as a character race & templates (which was severely limited - 10 RP for the race didn't even brush the surface of what I wanted to create and the templates came out way over the top), classes for each type of lycanthrope (completely impractical - I tried this with Savage Species and some other material, including BESM d20), a class based on use of the Beast Shape spell (which provided very little versatility and customization) and even modifying the classes designed by Drejk (Metamorph) and SmiloDan (Evolver). Unfortunately, none of these attempts really fit the vision/ruleset I had in mind for the Primal/Lycanthrope advancement until I started looking at the Summoner class & it's Eidolons.

The versatility of the evolution pool and different customizations one can make to a character, even of the same "Bestial Heritage" are broad and in my experience, very difficult to recreate, if at all, with another system. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to try another, more unique way to make it work (who doesn't want to have that brilliant idea that takes a system in a new direction?), just that I really am at a loss where I could go with it that I haven't already tried. Thusfar, as you mention, this method is a good base, mechanically.

Jackissocool wrote:
Also, dead levels. I see you get evolution points, but come on. Nobody likes a level like that.

I really hadn't noticed that until you pointed it out. Now that I'm thinking about it, some sort of animal empathy could be put into place for at least one of those levels (most likely 3rd), Reviewing the Lycanthrope template and verifying that there is no mechanical equivalent in the evolution list, I could add:

Primal Empathy (Ex) At 3rd level, in any form, a primal can communicate and empathize with animals related to their bestial heritage. They can use Diplomacy to alter such an animal's attitude, and when so doing gain a +4 racial bonus on the check.

As for the other dead levels, I'm not really certain what to add.

Umbral Reaver wrote:
The similarity to synthesist isn't a problem if you ban synthesist. :P

Pretty much what we did. I didn't like the archetype as it was due to the exploitive aspects, while my players didn't like the changes I'd made, so we just dropped it.

Umbral Reaver wrote:
This is nearly identical to my 'Astral Avatar' class that drew its powers from its outsider heritage.

Sounds pretty darn cool. With the options available due to the versatility of the Eidolon's evolutions, you can literally make a class to scratch whatever itch you might have. I'm not a fan of the summoner class overall, but I love the mechanics it uses.

Umbral Reaver wrote:

The problem I see here is not one of balance, but that it doesn't capture the feel of being a lycanthropic champion. Your array of evolutions are more likely to turn you into some kind of aberration.

You could do well if you changed the flavour of the class from 'shapeshifting champion of animal nature' to 'fleshwarping experimenter' or 'protean polymorpher'.

My goal is more towards allowing the eventual ressurection of an extinct race (lycanthropes), so to speak, in my campaign setting and allow my players to try a campaign concept we've toyed with for a few years - the all lycanthrope campaign (we tried an undead version when liber mortis was released, which was unbalaned as heck, but a blast).

To make sure I get where you're coming from when you say "array of evolutions are more likely to turn you into some kind of aberration," you're commenting on the possible combination, for example, of a tiger-based "primal" with... say the Web 3-point Evolution?That's a good point (if I that's your intended implication, if not - please clarify?) and is not quite what I was going for. With that in mind, I'll need to take any evolutions which should be heritage-specific and state in clear text. Example:

Original Text: Web (Ex):
Web (Ex): A primal gains a pair of spinnerets, giving it the ability to spin webs. The primal can use these webs to support itself plus up to one creature of the same size. It can throw webbing as a ranged touch attack up to 8 times per day, entangling a creature up to one size larger than the primal. The webbing has a range of 50 feet and a 10-foot range increment. Creatures entangled by the web can escape with an Escape Artist check or a Strength check (at a –4 penalty). The DC of these checks is equal to 10 + 1/2 the primal’s HD + the primal’s Con modifier. The webs have a Hardness of 0 and a number of hits points equal to the primal’s total Hit Dice. The primal can climb its own webs at its climb speed and can pinpoint any creature touching its webs. The primal must possess the climb evolution to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 7th level before selecting this evolution.

Modified Text: Web (Ex):
Web (Ex): A primal gains a pair of spinnerets, giving it the ability to spin webs. The primal can use these webs to support itself plus up to one creature of the same size. It can throw webbing as a ranged touch attack up to 8 times per day, entangling a creature up to one size larger than the primal. The webbing has a range of 50 feet and a 10-foot range increment. Creatures entangled by the web can escape with an Escape Artist check or a Strength check (at a –4 penalty). The DC of these checks is equal to 10 + 1/2 the primal’s HD + the primal’s Con modifier. The webs have a Hardness of 0 and a number of hits points equal to the primal’s total Hit Dice. The primal can climb its own webs at its climb speed and can pinpoint any creature touching its webs. The primal must possess the climb evolution and Bestial Heritage: spider to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 7th level before selecting this evolution.


Is there anything stopping that tiger-based primal from sprouting masses of tentacles?

And is it possible for a tiger primal to spend all 30+ evolution points on sensible things before running out and having to start buying extra limbs, pincers, strange qualities and so on?


You have two very valid points.

Umbral Reaver wrote:
Is there anything stopping that tiger-based primal from sprouting masses of tentacles?

This can be safely/easily remedied by limiting thematic evolutions to the "Bestial Heritage". Example: Add a prerequisite to Web of, "Bestial Heritage: Spider" and removal of the the tentacles option, which brings me to the potential issue you mention in your second point:

Umbral Reaver wrote:
And is it possible for a tiger primal to spend all 30+ evolution points on sensible things before running out and having to start buying extra limbs, pincers, strange qualities and so on?

I'll have to see if I have time tomorrow to put together some samples based on what is currently in place. Likely, a 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level version of animal and hybrid forms for each, to make certain it's viable. On a quick glance, it looks like it is, but I'd rather be certain. Thanks for pointing this out.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Looks really cool.

I would move the Resurgence ability to 1st level and every odd level.
I would move the bonus feats to 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter.

That might help with the empty level issue, and it's a bit awkward to get 2 feats at one level (your regular feat and the bonus feat).

You can move Evasion to 4th, Multiattack to 8th, Improved Multiattack to 12th, Improved Evasion to 16th.

EDIT:

About your new feat, characters generally only get feats at odd levels, so they wouldn't be able to select it at levels 10 and 20.

Maybe change it to 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17? 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19?


SmiloDan wrote:

Looks really cool.

I would move the Resurgence ability to 1st level and every odd level.
I would move the bonus feats to 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter.

That might help with the empty level issue, and it's a bit awkward to get 2 feats at one level (your regular feat and the bonus feat).

You can move Evasion to 4th, Multiattack to 8th, Improved Multiattack to 12th, Improved Evasion to 16th.

EDIT:

About your new feat, characters generally only get feats at odd levels, so they wouldn't be able to select it at levels 10 and 20.

Maybe change it to 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17? 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19?

Very much appreciated. You've solved several problems I was having in one fell swoop and prevented me from bloating the class with excess abilities by instead simply rearranging them.

I'm working on getting the specific "problem" evolutions compiled so as to set prerequisites so I don't end up with abberant lycanthropes and once that's done, I'll post the updated version with both the changes listed above as well as a couple level 20 evolution point builds (and I'll try to min-max the builds to see if I can break anything).


Notes:
Made changes based on suggestions by Jackiscool, SmiloDan, and UmbralReaver.
Changed: Low-Light Vision (1 pt), Evolution Pool (added 1 pt overall).
Removed: limbs (2 pt), sting (1 pt), tentacle (1 pt)
Added: Restricted by Heritage to the available evolutions in a sidebar box.

The Primal - Updated 9/9/2012.

I did some sample builds with the rules as per the current version and thusfar, all of the available options for bestial heritage have more than enough things to spend their Evolution Points on without deviating from theme at level 20. I'll need to recheck some of the lower levels, due to restrictions placed on when you can acquire certain evolutions.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about having "aberrant" lycanthrope types. If you give the class a lot of bestial lycanthrope flavor, most players will design characters that fit that flavor. The other players will appreciate the flexiblity.

It's been my experience if you give the players a lot of options, but suggest a certain type of campaign with out restricting their choices, they tend to tailor their characters to fit the campaign. I've also noticed that if the GM really restricts the players' options, they tend to rankle under those shackles.

It's a bit like reverse psychology, but it also shows trust in your players: if you give them a lot of choices, they will make the right decision. If you make the decisions for your players, they have a lot less fun.


SmiloDan wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about having "aberrant" lycanthrope types. If you give the class a lot of bestial lycanthrope flavor, most players will design characters that fit that flavor. The other players will appreciate the flexiblity.

I agree. I'm looking at it from the perspective of archetypes for the Primal class once it's finished: abberant, fey, outsider, etc.

SmiloDan wrote:
It's been my experience if you give the players a lot of options, but suggest a certain type of campaign with out restricting their choices, they tend to tailor their characters to fit the campaign. I've also noticed that if the GM really restricts the players' options, they tend to rankle under those shackles.

I really couldn't agree more. Options and the ability to customize something to suit your tastes, even within certain guidelines, really makes you more attached to your character and campaign.

SmiloDan wrote:
It's a bit like reverse psychology, but it also shows trust in your players: if you give them a lot of choices, they will make the right decision. If you make the decisions for your players, they have a lot less fun.

That's the exact mentality I try to keep. A project I'm working on (race advancement through race points) is based on that very idea, though I've given them a list of options to choose from instead of just picking from the ARG. I put it on the backburner till this is finished.=)

Did some minor updates & need to work on the point costs for the added evolutions. I'm not sure if they're where they should be.
Notes
Evasion: Unified Evasion rules with the relevant monk texts regarding armor.
Free Evolutions: shark gains gills for free in both its hybrid and animal forms; crocodile gains hold breath in both its hybrid and animal forms for free.
New Evolutions: Capsize, Compression, Fast Swallow, Ferocity, Hold Breath, Sound Mimicry, Stench, and Strangle with relevant restrictions.
Added: Undersized Weapons to the Large evolution for use of the quadruped base form as a hybrid form for spiders (i.e. drider-style mechanic). When spiders select this evolution for their hybrid form, it is treated as a 3 point evolution; improvement costs them 5 points instead of 6 and maintains the undersized weapon attribute.

The Primal - Last Update for Today.


I never trust players (or designers, including myself).

Show trust in your players and they'll abuse you to the limit of their ability. We can all throw around anecdotes, but we can't say we've had the same experience in how trustworthy players are in general.


Umbral Reaver wrote:

I never trust players (or designers, including myself).

Show trust in your players and they'll abuse you to the limit of their ability. We can all throw around anecdotes, but we can't say we've had the same experience in how trustworthy players are in general.

My trust is individual-dependent. I trust, for example, one of my players to optimize to the nth degree, while another I trust to design a character based on concepts. I usually allow broad options that I find acceptable, and am careful with new material.


I may have been exaggerating in my previous post. Also, I tend to hate everything when my depression at a darker point in its fluctuations. Most of the time I only hate most things, not everything.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The new update looks really tight.


SmiloDan wrote:
The new update looks really tight.

Thanks! Your assistance (and others) was a big help. I printed off a copy of the text version and have been editing it. I missed some silly references here and there, so those will be fixed. Also, I'm dropping the ability for them to select Huge size (save for maybe the animal form of the shark & crocodile, not sure yet). Huge size is being dropped after I did some test optimization builds last night. Huge size + size appropriate weapons for hybrid form really went to a dark, dark place.=)

I'll try and post tonight after a little more polish.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Huge might be a good capstone ability.


Notes (Mostly Superficial)
Edited a lot of typos, removed some "relics" from phrasing.
Limited the tail evolution.
Removed the Huge evolution due to problems mentioned in my previous post & went through and removed all references to related damage.
Added 2 new Evolutions: Death Roll (crocodile; 2 points) and Sprint (1 point).
Increased the "virtual" size of the crocodile by 1 category and the shark by 2 categories solely for the purposes of the Capsize evolution, which is included in the text.

The Primal - 9/10/2012

Considerations & Questions
1. I have noticed through optimization and tests that the hybrid form of the primal, while using manufactured weapons, far exceeds the dpr of the primal while in animal form. In order to compensate for this, I am giving serious consideration to granting the Primal the Str/Dex Bonus the Eidolon's normally receive, but only while in their animal form. It won't necessarily achieve the same dpr as the hybrid, but makes the animal form more appealing. Thoughts?

2. Should the size of the base animal be taken into account for the base animal form? A small-size raven or fox is a big damn raven or fox. Like, a really BIG raven or fox.

Size: Small Animal Form:
If the primal's animal form is size Small, it gains a +2 bonus to its Dexterity score. It also takes a -4 penalty to its Strength. It also gains a +1 size bonus to its AC and attack rolls, a -1 penalty to its CMB and CMD scores, a +2 bonus on its Fly skill checks, and a +4 bonus on its Stealth skill checks. Reduce the damage of all of its attacks by one step (1d6 becomes 1d4, 1d4 becomes 1d3). If this choice is made, the primal's animal form can be made Medium whenever the primal can change his evolution pool (which causes it to lose these modifiers for being Small).

Size: Tiny Animal Form:
If the primal's animal form is size Tiny, it gains a +4 bonus to its Dexterity score. It also takes a -8 penalty to its Strength. It also gains a +2 size bonus to its AC and attack rolls, a -2 penalty to its CMB and CMD scores, a +4 bonus on its Fly skill checks, and a +8 bonus on its Stealth skill checks. Reduce the damage of all of its attacks by two steps (1d6 becomes 1d3, 1d4 becomes 1d2). Tiny animals take up a space of 2-1/2 feet by 2-1/2 feet, so up to four of these animals can fit into a single square. Tiny races typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they must enter an opponent's square to attack it in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. Other creatures can move through those squares without provoking attacks of opportunity. Tiny creatures typically cannot flank an enemy.

The interesting thing is the bonus they would get from the Str/Dex Bonus offsets any penalty to Strength they suffer from the smaller animal form (eventually) - they break even. Unification of the rules would also allow them a +10 bonus to disguise for the purpose of appearing as the animal they mimic.

I am, however, a little torn on this part.

Re: SmiloDan: That's a very good point. I'll have to do a few more tests just to be certain, but that could definitely work.

Edited to add:
Alternatively, instead of the strength/dexterity bonus like eidolons receive, I could grant them a flat +X scaling damage & to hit bonus (competence) with their natural weapons in animal and hybrid forms to make them competitive with manufactured weapons in hybrid form.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I would reduce the penalties to Strength for Small and Tiny primal forms to -2 and -4, respectively.

I like the straight-up Str/Dex bonus for Primal forms. It has precedence in barbarian rages, druid wild shapes, and eidolons.


SmiloDan wrote:
I would reduce the penalties to Strength for Small and Tiny primal forms to -2 and -4, respectively.

Hm, you're right. I'm not sure where I got my numbers from. Thanks!

SmiloDan wrote:
I like the straight-up Str/Dex bonus for Primal forms. It has precedence in barbarian rages, druid wild shapes, and eidolons,

I admit, I'm a little partial to it, as well. I'll see what I get arrange/rearrange tomorrow evening. I need to get my rear to bed.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Looking forward to it! :-D


Additions & Errata
Corrected Spider base animal form to gain legs (4) and base speed increased to 60 ft.
Added in the size variations for starting animals.
Added in the Size Small evolution for 1 point for Tiny creatures & 1 additional point to make it medium.
Added in the disguise bonus for appearing as the animal in question; conditional bonus - doesn't gain it if size increases have been selected.
Added Capstone Ability: Primal Lord - Allows usage of hybrid/animal form abilities.

Updated Version: The Primal - 9/11/2012

I'm trying to decide if the Capstone is too much. It doesn't seem like it, as it just lets them use stuff they already possess in human form, but I definitely need some outside/objective perspectives on it.


Removed the level requirement from Small size. I think I need to clarify the size + base forms more and just remove the table. For example,
Bat: Animal: Size Small, <base form data>; Hybrid: Size Medium, <base form data>
With any additional notes indicated on each entry. The current organization feels a little clunky.


I did a little bit of cleaning up this afternoon, and I think this may be the final draft of the base class - unless some issues I haven't forseen are found. The Capstone is based off the Animal Lord Template and allows the Primal to make use of many of their lycanthropic abilities in their humanoid form.

The Primal - 9/16/2012

Comments & Criticism appreciated.

Archetypes: A few possible archetypes come to mind, such as an Aberrant, Angels (etc), Fey, Dragons (I know, shocker), Undead (Vampire/Ghost/Ghoul, etc), and Demons/Devils (etc).


Da'ath wrote:

I did a little bit of cleaning up this afternoon, and I think this may be the final draft of the base class - unless some issues I haven't forseen are found. The Capstone is based off the Animal Lord Template and allows the Primal to make use of many of their lycanthropic abilities in their humanoid form.

The Primal - 9/16/2012

Comments & Criticism appreciated.

Da'ath, this version requires permission to watch - you haven't switched shared settings unlike on previous versions.


Drejk wrote:
Da'ath wrote:

I did a little bit of cleaning up this afternoon, and I think this may be the final draft of the base class - unless some issues I haven't forseen are found. The Capstone is based off the Animal Lord Template and allows the Primal to make use of many of their lycanthropic abilities in their humanoid form.

The Primal - 9/16/2012

Comments & Criticism appreciated.

Da'ath, this version requires permission to watch - you haven't switched shared settings unlike on previous versions.

I'm an idiot. Wrapping up too many projects as once. I fixed it.=)


Nah, it's quite common things happening while sharing materials through Google Docs, er, Drive...

EDIT: Where does Improved Multiattack feat comes from and what does it do? I don't recall it, can't find it on d20pfsrd and there is no description in the file.


Looks awesome. My creation talents aren't nearly as cool as yours, but for one of the 'dead levels', what about an ability something like "Bestial Reinforcements" that calls (verbally) animals of your heritage for a fixed amount of time- perhaps 2 hours plus cha modifier. It would obviously be situational, but 1, fits the flavor, and two, could really turn around a battle that is going badly.


Note that, thanks to evolution pool and its constant growth, there are no dead-dead levels.


Drejk wrote:

Nah, it's quite common things happening while sharing materials through Google Docs, er, Drive...

EDIT: Where does Improved Multiattack feat comes from and what does it do? I don't recall it, can't find it on d20pfsrd and there is no description in the file.

You know, I had assumed that Improved Multiattack made the cut for Pathfinder. As it turns out, it did not, and wasn't included in the Monster Feats.

Improved Multiattack [General]
Savage Species, p. 36
You are particularly adept at using all your natural weapons at once.
Prerequisite: Multiattack (MM), Three or more natural weapons.
Benefit: The usual -5 penalty on attack rolls for secondary attacks does not apply to your secondary attacks with natural weapons. The damage bonus for such attacks is still only 1/2 your Strength bonus, if any.
Normal: Without this feat, your secondary natural attacks take a -5 penalty (or a -2 penalty if you have the Multiattack feat).

There is currently an entry in the text area for Multiattack and Improved Multiattack. I knew I included the information, just couldn't remeber where.

Redchigh wrote:
Looks awesome. My creation talents aren't nearly as cool as yours, but for one of the 'dead levels', what about an ability something like "Bestial Reinforcements" that calls (verbally) animals of your heritage for a fixed amount of time- perhaps 2 hours plus cha modifier. It would obviously be situational, but 1, fits the flavor, and two, could really turn around a battle that is going badly.

I'm glad you like it! I've been really happy with how it's turning out. It's my campaign setting specific solution to my players wanting to try an all lycanthrope game (lycanthropes are extinct in my setting, but some of their descendants still remain)

I've actually been giving some serious thought to the idea of the animal empathy sort of thing. The Animal Lord template includes a "Dominion" and Species Affinity, which I may add as additional selected evolutions OR as a "Variant Class Feature".


Adding an Archetype Note for some possible options:

Archetypes: Lord of Madness (Aberrant), The Fallen (Angels/Celestial - idea is when some Fall, they descend to the prime material plane and either attempt to regain their grace or commit to evil), Fey (not sure how I'll go this one), Dragons (I know, shocker), Undead (Vampire/Ghost/Ghoul, etc), and Demons/Devils (etc).

Setting Specific Archetype: Fang of the Spider Queen (Generic: Drider).


Made some minor changes and corrected some errors. It has been almost 2 years since I last looked at this, so I updated to match the in-game changes we'd made over the course of that time.

We haven't had any interest in the archetypes I proposed in my post two years ago, so haven't added any, but I may do the Aberrant later if I get bored.

Updated: The Primal

Minor Changes

  • Fixed various editing mistakes and typos.
  • Reduced Resurgence from 1/2 level + Con modifier to 3 + Con modifier times per day.
  • Granted the Raven and Bat animal types the Flight evolution for free at 1st level; they may not select this evolution for their hybrid forms until 5th level, however.
  • Corrected a raven form error: Base Form (animal) has been switched from quadruped to biped.


Take a close look at the wording of Resurgence. I think I know that you intend for it to do, but you missed the mark. As written, you are not allowed to use the ability at even numbered levels, and at first level it heal 0d6.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Take a close look at the wording of Resurgence. I think I know that you intend for it to do, but you missed the mark. As written, you are not allowed to use the ability at even numbered levels, and at first level it heal 0d6.

Wow. Two years and no one in my group noticed that, even the guy who regularly plays them now. Thanks for the catch. It is corrected now.


Shall I fine comb the rest of it? I can get pretty picky. ;)


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Shall I fine comb the rest of it? I can get pretty picky. ;)

At your liesure, of course, and much appreciated. I prefer picky, lol.


Maybe you should forbid pounce or make it available to every form. That is a problem with the Eidolons as the rules stand already (that pounce is so good that it makes the quadraped the obvious choice).

Speaking towards that point: I feel like the spider is obviously the mechanically best form with its two quadraped forms and extra speed/limbs. Am I missing something? Is that on purpose?


Excaliburproxy wrote:

Maybe you should forbid pounce or make it available to every form. That is a problem with the Eidolons as the rules stand already (that pounce is so good that it makes the quadraped the obvious choice).

Speaking towards that point: I feel like the spider is obviously the mechanically best form with its two quadraped forms and extra speed/limbs. Am I missing something? Is that on purpose?

As always, good points. I had to call my buddy and ask him why he wasn't full attacking every round, because now that you mention it, he only ever used it on the first round of combat, essentially self-nerfing, because he remembered it that way from a 3.5 feat.

I may go ahead and modify it in one of the following ways (in addition to available to all forms):
1. Only usable on the first round of combat, or
2. Has a cost of 1-2 Resurgence per use.

Thoughts?

As far as the spider form goes, could you clarify what you mean? Knowing you, you've noticed some severe mechanical imbalance I haven't thought of to correct for. To date, we've not had a single spider-based primal pop up (mostly tiger, wolf, raven, bat, and foxes - oh, and one serpent) and I haven't had cause to use one as an NPC just yet.


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I think the problem with "pouncing" and/or relying entirely on full attacks for martial classes is one of the core design problems of D&D. I am not sure how much can be done to fix that, but I will say that I usually house rule martial classes that get pounce to instead get some lesser form of that ability then maybe some other kind of boost too.

Maybe all forms can pounce with a 1-point resurgence cost? That would be a good class feature perhaps. [as a wild aside: maybe it would be cool for pathfinder to have a system-wide per-encounter resource system that would allow martial characters to pounce or do other combat-y things to help catch guys up to casters; more to come?]

On spider form:
Well, pouncing in two different forms was already part of it. It would allow for one smaller form and one bigger form with the bigger form probably being generally more combat viable but the smaller form being able to still fight in hallways--a lack of which is one of the few drawbacks of using a big damn Eidolon rather than a fighter.

The limb thing is the other half. The strongest eidolon build is having as many different primary attacks as you can while also having as much strength as you can. The extra limbs are free build points towards that goal.


I really like this class. It manages to successfully fulfill a role that I have wanted to play, but mostly cannot be fulfilled with Paizo classes: Being a non-spellcasting shapeshifter.

I also like how you blended the mechanics of the eidolon with a PC.

My only suggestion would be to expand the bonus feat list to include some more of the animal companion feats (Athletics, Run, Stealthy etc).

Also I do believe the pounce thing is a hard issue to address. It's not really overpowered. It's more like its not fair that other people don't get pounce because its such a cool and empowering ability.


Evolution pool
This class feature assumes that the reader is familiar with the summoner ability. Is that correct? If a new player used this class, they would not know how to use this feature.

Shapeshifter
Maybe a nit pick, but shouldn't the 10th ability be a swift action?

Multiattack
I think a simpler write up would be: "At 8th level, a primal gains Multiattack as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites."
Doesn't he spend evolution points to gain natural attacks? If he doesn't have a third attack, why give him a free one?


Excaliburproxy wrote:

I think the problem with "pouncing" and/or relying entirely on full attacks for martial classes is one of the core design problems of D&D. I am not sure how much can be done to fix that, but I will say that I usually house rule martial classes that get pounce to instead get some lesser form of that ability then maybe some other kind of boost too.

Maybe all forms can pounce with a 1-point resurgence cost? That would be a good class feature perhaps. [as a wild aside: maybe it would be cool for pathfinder to have a system-wide per-encounter resource system that would allow martial characters to pounce or do other combat-y things to help catch guys up to casters; more to come?]

I think the resurgence cost is, at the moment, probably the best way to address it. A primal who blows all his uses of resurgence on pouncing may regret it later when the, essentially, free heal isn't available. Edited to reflect the change.

I've often considered trying to work up some sort of mechanic that allowed martials a type of pool of mechanics similar to the way SWSE's force power system works, but focused on movement, setting up sneak attack for yourself or others, etc. Very simple example:
Tactics (Feat) you gain 1 + x Stat tactics. You may select the same tactic more than once. Each selection counts as 1 additional use per day.
Sample Tactic: Pounce - Use the power, grants you pounce.
Basic Tactic System: On a natural 20, you recover all your tactics or deal critical damage as normal.

Excaliburproxy wrote:

On spider form:

Well, pouncing in two different forms was already part of it. It would allow for one smaller form and one bigger form with the bigger form probably being generally more combat viable but the smaller form being able to still fight in hallways--a lack of which is one of the few drawbacks of using a big damn Eidolon rather than a fighter.

The limb thing is the other half. The strongest eidolon build is having as many different primary attacks as you can while also having as much strength as you can. The extra limbs are free build points towards that goal.

Very good point. I was hoping the fact they'd have to purchase the claws for the attacks would be sufficient an offset to account for it, but this may not be the case. I could add a line that indicates that 4 of their 8 appendages cannot be modified by the claws feature, as they're required to keep the creature stable and not fall prone, but I'm not sure if that would correct enough for the issue.

Adam B. 135 wrote:

I really like this class. It manages to successfully fulfill a role that I have wanted to play, but mostly cannot be fulfilled with Paizo classes: Being a non-spellcasting shapeshifter.

I also like how you blended the mechanics of the eidolon with a PC.

Thanks and I'm glad you like it. It seemed the easiest way to represent some non-standard character options when we first saw the summoner. I've got two players who regularly use it now and for the same reason. I don't like slapping spellcasting onto classes, as a general rule.

Adam B. 135 wrote:

My only suggestion would be to expand the bonus feat list to include some more of the animal companion feats (Athletics, Run, Stealthy etc).

Also I do believe the pounce thing is a hard issue to address. It's not really overpowered. It's more like its not fair that other people don't get pounce because its such a cool and empowering ability.

That's a great idea, really. One of my players had remarked he felt somewhat limited on bonus feats, but that "it wasn't a major issue". I'll have to comb through the feats today and see what can be reasonably added. You've given me a good start on that front and the three you mentioned have been added.

As far as pounce goes, it really isn't fair the way things are handled. There are pounce options you can take, but they're mostly racially based and if the race doesn't fit your desire for your character, you're losing out on something to help keep you competative by not being a munchkin. I added a rage cost, as per Bardok's suggestion, to pounce (it costs x rounds per use), as well.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Evolution pool

This class feature assumes that the reader is familiar with the summoner ability. Is that correct? If a new player used this class, they would not know how to use this feature.

I have an entry for evolution pool just under shapeshifter (I'm bringing it up on the off-chance you missed it). If this isn't the case, could you be more specific?

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Shapeshifter

Maybe a nit pick, but shouldn't the 10th ability be a swift action?

Nit-picking is good. Fixed.=)

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Multiattack

I think a simpler write up would be: "At 8th level, a primal gains Multiattack as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites."
Doesn't he spend evolution points to gain natural attacks? If he doesn't have a third attack, why give him a free one?

This is actually a direct cut and paste of the eidolon's ability. Originally, I was only really constructing the class for werewolves, weretigers, and werefoxes, but ended up making it more inclusive. The issue it addresses, and the only reason I kept it as a direct quote, is it helps those "animal types" with limited natural attacks (such as a raven), without helping those with excessive potential for natural attacks (such as a spider). It is sort of self-correcting, if that makes sense.


Shapeshifter
This class feature does not say what being in a specific form does, nor does it refer to the chart or any other class features that might clarify. Between this, evolution pool, and beastial heritage, this information is all there, but scattered and not easy to follow.

Also you have some 1st level class features that do not appear on the main chart.

Multiattack
When you look at it in the way you have described, then yes it is fine. I suppose my issue is eidolons/elocution points in general. There are more than a few people who think They are too powerful. What other class can rebuild every level? You have brought over existing mechanics, and I appreciate that, but my personal feeling is that the number of points and the free rebuilding makes is easy to "break" without even trying hard. This is based on seeing an eidolon in combat.

Beastial heritage
Curious. Why did you choose to not make some of the hybrid forms bipeds? Why do some of the forms get freebies while the others do not?

AC bonus
At which level does the primal gain this ability? I know the chart says. But the class feature should say so too.

Str/Dex bonus
Same as above. This class feature could actually be built into the shapeshifter ability.

Evolutions
Since you have a list of what evolutions can be picked, I feel it is redundant to separately list which ones can not be picked.


I am so glad i decided to repost this with updates (seriously). I knew some refinements were needed, but you guys have pointed out some serious flaws.

I'm too busy to start fixing them this minute, butI will try to address them tonight after my daughter crashes (I wish I had 3 year old energy). I may get to it sooner, if she decides she wants to paint. =)

Ciaran - VERY helpful points. I'm going to try and clean up/reorganize, and to address certain potential issues you and Excaliburproxy brought up, I'm going to construct "models" in a similar fashion as the eidolon models for each "type". Certain evolutions will be placed in a "universal group" a player can choose from freely, but otherwise they'll only be able to select evolutions from their "base forms group".

I think this will have the beneficial side effect of making it more "plug and play" with archetypes, as well.

Does the general idea make sense/ seem sound?


Awesome


So, apparently, I unintentionally lied: I did not get it all done in one evening. Mother & father-in-law being ill, I had to do a bit of helping out late last night; anyway, I did get a little bit done as a start, though I haven't yet cleaned up the entries mentioned above. I'll try to do more as time allows.

I started with the tiger, as it is one of the easiest ones to do, and here's the example to better illustrate the model idea and the Universal Evolutions, so far:

Bestial Heritage: Tiger:
Base Form Animal: medium quadruped; Hybrid: medium biped
Evolutions: 1-point bite, claws, climb, scent, tail; 2-point grab, rake, rend; 3-point blindsense; 4-point blindsight

Universal Evolutions:
1-point improved damage, improved natural armor, low-light vision, magic attacks, pounce, pull, push, reach, slam, sprint, small; 2-point ability increase; 3-point moon-touched damage reduction; 4-point fast healing, ferocity, large

I think this is a step in the right direction.

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