Ciaran Barnes |
Seems like a good direction. I have some questions.
1) is the AC bonus always in effect, or only when shapeshifted? I see that this ability represents an animals intuition, like the monk. I wonder however if a natural AC bonus would be a better fit, dependent upon how the class interacts armor and shield bonuses. From a thematic standpoint, if the AC bonus was lost in humanoid form, what if armors made of primarily organic materials (leather, hide) absorbed into the form?
2) larger forms obviously have advantages. Will you give some kind of perk for choosing "inferior" forms like the rat, such as climb or swim speeds?
3) will the serpent, shark, and spider forms stay as is, or will the hybrid forms become bipeds? Personally, the idea of a shark man running around eating cats at night sounds like a lot of fun. The spider... man? could have four of his eight limbs shrink down and have little usability, but he could still stick to walls. Snake man could stand up the way merfolk do, or simply grow legs.
Da'ath |
On page 9 of the document, I added a "Design & Notes" section. This is where the current base forms, as well as miscellaneous notes are. Current "modeled" forms are bat, cat, raven, serpent, shark, tiger, and wolf.
Seems like a good direction. I have some questions.
1) is the AC bonus always in effect, or only when shapeshifted? I see that this ability represents an animals intuition, like the monk. I wonder however if a natural AC bonus would be a better fit, dependent upon how the class interacts armor and shield bonuses. From a thematic standpoint, if the AC bonus was lost in humanoid form, what if armors made of primarily organic materials (leather, hide) absorbed into the form?
2) larger forms obviously have advantages. Will you give some kind of perk for choosing "inferior" forms like the rat, such as climb or swim speeds?
3) will the serpent, shark, and spider forms stay as is, or will the hybrid forms become bipeds? Personally, the idea of a shark man running around eating cats at night sounds like a lot of fun. The spider... man? could have four of his eight limbs shrink down and have little usability, but he could still stick to walls. Snake man could stand up the way merfolk do, or simply grow legs.
1 - We've been using it as the AC bonus is always "on", though on occasion one of the players dons armor to "better blend in" with the "human world". If it wren't always on, I wouldn't see any problem with the use of "druid-like" armors and absorbtion.
2 - Definitely. I think the rat and the "tiny" serpent form get the compression trait, for example (and are the only ones). I'm having to go back with each individual animal and check what they get in a normal form as I go. I didn't do that with several of the initial examples, but I've been going back for it. Rat, for example, will have access to climb and swim - I'm still working out what each should get "free" (and I'll gladly take suggestions) - many of the current freebies are just to make sure they line up with the "structure" of the form.
3 - I'll be the first to admit, I screwed up hardcore on the shark. He was supposed to be exactly what you said - legs and running around and what not. I... uh... forgot to give him legs. And arms. I remembered teeth, though! Before you pointed it out, he woulda just impotently flopped around chomping on air, daring things to get close. The concept for the serpent is exactly what you said - I fully intend for it to move in the fashion of a lamia. The spider, I'm a little torn. I really, really want him to resemble a drider, but with your suggestion, I went surfing the web (ha!) for a HORRIBLE old B-movie I saw on SyFy one night, years ago, which I was unable to find. While the movie kinda sucked, the monster itself was kinda neat. Bipedal form with the normal human feet, arms with hands, but 4 spindly spider legs which came out of his back, while his spinerettes were located in his abdominal region. Maybe we could go with that?
Ciaran Barnes |
I dont think the tiny ones need to be perfectly balanced against the bigger guys, but something like the movement modes for free are a good bone to toss them. Fly for the bat and raven, swim for the rat and serpent, etc. The freebies don't have to extend to the hybrid forms. They should have to choose those evolutions when they switch to the larger hybrid form.
Your doc refers to medium size as the default for hybrids. What about a halfling or gnome?
I say follow your instinct on what what be fun for the forms. Just get creative for now and you can trim it back later if needed. The bipedal spider guy sounds like it will be easier to make a base form for compared to the drider form. With evolution points though, a drider form could be achieved for someone who wants it.
Da'ath |
I've been slowly updating as I can get time, mostly minor. The whole family is ill, save my daughter, and since I tend to weather things of this nature much better than anyone else, I've been picking up all the slack.
It will get there, but is going slower than I'd like.=)
I dont think the tiny ones need to be perfectly balanced against the bigger guys, but something like the movement modes for free are a good bone to toss them. Fly for the bat and raven, swim for the rat and serpent, etc. The freebies don't have to extend to the hybrid forms. They should have to choose those evolutions when they switch to the larger hybrid form.
Your doc refers to medium size as the default for hybrids. What about a halfling or gnome?
I say follow your instinct on what what be fun for the forms. Just get creative for now and you can trim it back later if needed. The bipedal spider guy sounds like it will be easier to make a base form for compared to the drider form. With evolution points though, a drider form could be achieved for someone who wants it.
I agree, I think giving them their niche benefits in terms of movement and the like is definitely the way to go.
As far as size goes for hybrids, its a rule based on the fact we have no dwarves, gnomes, or halflings. I'll add in a sidebar or some such to make it more appropriate for the smaller races, however, and general use for others.
Ciaran Barnes |
I have noticed that in your Primal Size sidebar, you present rules for small and tiny creatures, yet you have no small sized forms. It seems like some of your forms could have more than one size. A boar or wolf could very well be small or medium. Same with the spider. Was it intentional to not have any of them begin as small?
Da'ath |
As far as intent, sorta yes and sorta no. At the moment, I'm intentionally making them the same size as the bestiary (minimum Tiny, maximum Medium) for the base forms (animal and hybrid). I did just notice, however, that I have Small-size locked as something you could only select if you were Tiny. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure why, so I'll try to address that in the next revision.
Da'ath |
This thing is shaping up to be pretty awesome, I must say. Definitely has the flavor of "Lycan racial class" down pat :)
If I ever get around to playing PF again, I'll beg my GM to let me play a primal sometime ;) (after the chimeric, of course)
I'm glad you like it; the campaign we ran using it turned it into a new favorite for a couple of my players. Hopefully, one this revision is tightened up and DPR calculations tested, I'll be able to work on some archetypes based on dragons, "things from beyond" and so on. Family illnesses and my injury have pretty much prevented me from doing much over the past couple weeks, unfortunately. I hope to be back at it soon.
UsagiTaicho |
I hope everything has gotten better for you Da'ath. I like the idea of the shapeshifting specialist class myself. I've been toying with the idea of a berzerker archetype for the barbarian that wildshapes him while enraged. Haven't written anything down yet, but perhaps I'll type something up later.
Your Primal class is pretty cool. I'll allow it in my games from now on.
Da'ath |
Hey, thanks for the well wishing! Everything is starting to come back together in that respect and I plan to do some more work on finishing up/tightening things up on the class this evening (mostly finishing the write ups on the animal types) before I start doing some DPR calculations to make sure their hit and damage output right. On top of that, magic item interaction is something I need to take into account, as well. I'm probably going to take a page out of White Wolf's Werewolf the Apocalypse fetish system for interaction, etc.
Glad you like the class, too. My wife has been "nagging" me about finishing it up before we start the next campaign because she wants to try the dragon archetype I have planned and the weretiger and werefox forms are popular with a couple of the other players. To be honest, I was somewhat surprised that it was received so well in our group. A non-spellcasting shapeshifter is apparently a much desired concept for a lot of folks.
Da'ath |
I'm definitely among those who desire it. Spellcasting, being inherently powerful, almost guarantees that a shapeshifter can't focus on that ability. Which really sucks. Also, this dragon archetype sounds amazing.
Yeah, I've notice Paizo (and WotC as well) has this nasty of habit of slapping spells lists on everything.
I didn't get much done, but did get the framework on the bear, boar, and spider added in this evening, so now I can start going back through and refining some things.