Recently, a discussion in the Ask James Jacobs thread seemed to indicate that a significant portion of the Paizo staff and the audience here are not fond of CBS's The Big Bang Theory. Some folks, including James, said they found it downright offensive.
I'm curious as to why. While I readily admit that the writing is no better than any other sitcom and the show does tend to stereotype intelligent people unfairly, I still get a couple of good belly laughs out of each episode.
I gather that, if one believes that Sheldon actually does have some sort of autism-spectrum disorder, people may be uncomfortable with that, and the jokes about Indian and Jewish culture with regard to Raj and Howard may rub some people the wrong way. (I'm not that sensitive to such humor, so I don't sympathize, but I can see how others might.)
So, what's everyone's take? Do you like the show or hate it? And if you're someone who's offended by it, why do you feel that way?
(Mods: The messageboard path in my browser looks wonky, and the first time I tried to add a new thread under TV, it wanted to reply to an Ask JJ post I had just read for some reason. So if you end up having to move this post, my apologies in advance.)
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The show uses negative characatures of geek culture and makes a mockery of them.
It confounds the problems normal people have with geek culture, giving people a predisposition about how geeks should act, and it does so in such a way that causes people to have negative initial reactions.
It makes negative behavior seem normal and accepted. Even behavior that geek culture is trying to reduce.
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I love the show. I'm a Geek, not as huge of a geek as the 4 in the show, I'd not even register on the guys level of Geekdome
I'm not a Trekkie/Trekker though I do like the TOS and TNG series for the most part. I don't play card games, I'm not into comic books, and I'm not a fan of WOW
My Lifes Partner and my Co-Worker also love the show
OH and I am an IS tech so PC is my door to geekdome as well as having been playing D&D since Sept 1979
I like it. I consider myself a nerd/geek/whatever. I think people take certain things too seriously. Sure the characters are charictures (unsure of spelling), but it's a sit com not a documentary.
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People already have a predisposition about how geeks should act. Not because of a TV show, but because the stereotype is already there, and with good reason. I like the show. I find it funny. I also feel justified in my dislike of Babylon 5 considering Sheldon feels the same way.
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People already have a predisposition about how geeks should act. Not because of a TV show, but because the stereotype is already there, and with good reason. I like the show. I find it funny. I also feel justified in my dislike of Babylon 5 considering Sheldon feels the same way.
I find the show reinforces steriotypes that the geek community has been trying to shake off for a long time. The steriotype was there. That doesn't mean it was accurate.
I see it reinforced every time I go to a gaming convention, or my local game store. Sure, not everyone fits the mold, but stereotypes are often grounded in truth. Granted, that truth gets exaggerated by massive amounts of hyperbole and caricature.
As for the characters in the show, they're just that: characters. They're not representatives for the entirety of geek culture. I admit that I see some qualities in each character that reflect qualities in people I know, even in myself. There are also qualities I don't possess. I find it likely that some people are offended because the show is, at times, too accurate, just as there are those offended because they view it as too stereotypical of what geeks are supposed to be like.
And for another plus, the show occasionally features Wil Wheaton.
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The problem is there is nothing in the show, or anywhere else on tv, that does represent non-moronic aspects of geek culture.
Aspects of those characters exist in much of geek culture, but practically no one exhibts them to the level of the characters. And yet these characters are being displayed as if they were the norm.
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And yet these characters are being displayed as if they were the norm.
I'll argue that this statement is false. These characters are not being presented as "the norm" any more than the cast of Friends was being presented as "the norm" for white urban 20-somethings. As you pointed out yourself, they're exaggerations. Exaggeration is a comedy staple.
As for the "non-moronic aspects" of geek culture, whatever that means, I'd argue that geek is in right now. There's a show about zombies that's one of the biggest draws on television. Another is based on the books of George R.R. Martin. The biggest box office records, both overall and opening weekend, are a sci-fi movie and a comic book adaptation. In its heyday G4TV did its best to highlight everything good about geek culture and also showed great social and environmental consciousness. The Nerdist is also a great show about all things geek.
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The problem is there is nothing in the show, or anywhere else on tv, that does represent non-moronic aspects of geek culture.
Aspects of those characters exist in much of geek culture, but practically no one exhibts them to the level of the characters. And yet these characters are being displayed as if they were the norm.
Friends, Seinfield, Star Trek original series, Curb yoru enthusiam, Nurse Jackie, Parks and recreation, How I met your mother, the office, Always sunny in Philadelphia, community, 30 rock, etc, etc, etc.
They're not intended to represent normal well adjusted people.
It's called Sit-Com because real life is far more dull.
Really? I've only watched it a couple of times, but the characters did seem to be absurd caricatures of geeks. You just can't take them seriously.
What I find offensive is the notion that you're either "smart" or "cool," but you can't be both. That's been around for a long time, though. Revenge of the Nerds, etc.
Science, engineering, etc., does take brain power, but you don't need to wear thick glasses and a pocket protector to be good at that and maybe be personable, too.
There are a wide variety of gamers and fantasy/sci-fi fans out there. Like any subculture, it's pretty varied in itself.
Really? I've only watched it a couple of times, but the characters did seem to be absurd caricatures of geeks. You just can't take them seriously.
What I find offensive is the notion that you're either "smart" or "cool," but you can't be both. That's been around for a long time, though. Revenge of the Nerds, etc.
Science, engineering, etc., does take brain power, but you don't need to wear thick glasses and a pocket protector to be good at that and maybe be personable, too.
There are a wide variety of gamers and fantasy/sci-fi fans out there. Like any subculture, it's pretty varied in itself.
They have characters that are both smart and cool. I can think of two off the top of my head. The large man bernadette dated whom they ran into at a convention and some brilliant guy who rode a motorcycle and Penny ended up dating before she found out he had a wife.
Granted they're just side characters, but I suspect because if the main characters lives were perfect the show would be dull. They're the underdogs that we can't help but root for.
The problem is there is nothing in the show, or anywhere else on tv, that does represent non-moronic aspects of geek culture.
Aspects of those characters exist in much of geek culture, but practically no one exhibts them to the level of the characters. And yet these characters are being displayed as if they were the norm.
Friends, Seinfield, Star Trek original series, Curb yoru enthusiam, Nurse Jackie, Parks and recreation, How I met your mother, the office, Always sunny in Philadelphia, community, 30 rock, etc, etc, etc.
They're not intended to represent normal well adjusted people.
It's called Sit-Com because real life is far more dull.
In Friends, Seinfield, and How I met your mother, the characters are fairly normal. Also, they are all characters who exist in fairly mainstream life. Counterpoints exist for those characters in other shows and in most people's lives. To most people, geek culture is already a foriegn and wierd thing they don't understand. The show accentuates that in a negative way, and there is no counter example. And a couple bit characters a season is not not enough to provide a counter.
The Office, Always Sunny, and what I have seen of 30 Rock are intentionally and very obviously rediculous. They are a different type of comedy. You can argue that BBT is also obviously rediculous, but from the number of times people have expected me to be like the charicatures on the show because I consider myself a geek, I would say its not obvious enough.
I'm not familiar enough with the other shows to really comment.
Really? I've only watched it a couple of times, but the characters did seem to be absurd caricatures of geeks. You just can't take them seriously.
I have met far too many people who do take them as serious representations to agree with this. When people have no counter example, their expectations are easily manipulated by the few things they do see.
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Cain,
The point is that I think you're too concerned with it. It's a sit com and not that big of a deal.
Will and Grace is not a good representation of gay people, but it was ground breaking in it's day. I think most moderately well adjusted people know that BBT and other sit coms aren't real life.
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Love the show.
Of course the characters are ridiculous caricatures, its a sitcom. However, a good caricature exaggerates something that is really there, and this show does too. I never knew a physicist that was like Sheldon - but I did know one that requested that people raise their hands when using sarcasm around him.
Plus, they generally get the physics stuff right.
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The problem is there is nothing in the show, or anywhere else on tv, that does represent non-moronic aspects of geek culture.
Aspects of those characters exist in much of geek culture, but practically no one exhibts them to the level of the characters. And yet these characters are being displayed as if they were the norm.
Friends, Seinfield, Star Trek original series, Curb yoru enthusiam, Nurse Jackie, Parks and recreation, How I met your mother, the office, Always sunny in Philadelphia, community, 30 rock, etc, etc, etc.
They're not intended to represent normal well adjusted people.
It's called Sit-Com because real life is far more dull.
While it is true that Sit Coms portray abnormal people, there are diffrent ways to do so.
Take for example the D&D episode from Community. Obviously it gets many of the details wrong, and in kind of a bad way, but it still shows roleplaying games (an aspect of geek culture) infinently better than Big Bang Theory ever does.
Big Bang Theory, much like Two & a Half Men (a show by the same producers or screenwriters or whatever) shows incredibly incompetent, unpleasent, repulsive people. You just NEVER want to meet these guys. When watching Friends or Community or 30 Rock or whatever, you allways think, "man, these guys are funny and they might be stuipd, but are also charming in their own very special way."
When watching "Big Bang Theory", all I can think is, "Can't these guys ever get SOMETHING right? can't they make me care for them even a little bit?"
Don't get me wrong, I watch the show and consider it funny, but what makes it not great is the fact that the characters are really distasteful people. It's not that I am offended as a geek, it's that I don't enjoy watching truly repulsive persons.
Also there is a suspension of disbelief about 4 guys who each have 150+ IQ being so hopelessley stuipd. In the first couple of seasons they are socialy awkward - season 4 onward they are purely a bunch of idiots.
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In Friends, Seinfield, and How I met your mother, the characters are fairly normal.
I've never watched "Friends" or "How I Met Your Mother", but in Seinfeld, you think the characters are fairly normal? George is normal? Kramer is normal? Come on.
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Cain,
The point is that I think you're too concerned with it. It's a sit com and not that big of a deal.
Will and Grace is not a good representation of gay people, but it was ground breaking in it's day. I think most moderately well adjusted people know that BBT and other sit coms aren't real life.
Will was a successful, intelligent, and fairly normal person who happened to be gay. He wasn't significantly more characturized than most other sitcom characters. He was one of the first people like that on a mainstream show, and certainly the first lead I can think of.
Contrast him with Sheldon, who is now the icon of Aspergers - today I actually listened people talking about how Aspergers people are like him at my work caffeteria. His defining character trait is asshat, and it comes accross in every interaction he makes. People now associate his level of dickishness with the disease. I know at least 3 people with the disease, and it is insulting to me that people relate him with them.
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I'm about a season behind, but I like it a lot. I watch for Sheldon, though. He's one of the very few characters on television that routinely makes sense to me.
And call me the weird one, but I think the show's portrayal of geek culture is largely affectionate. When they're together doing some geeky thing it's not very different from a bunch of guys watching football.
In Friends, Seinfield, and How I met your mother, the characters are fairly normal.I've never watched "Friends" or "How I Met Your Mother", but in Seinfeld, you think the characters are fairly normal? George is normal? Kramer is normal? Come on.
George is fairly normal - at least as far as citcoms are concerned. Kramer is the insane guy who lives down the hall. But asside from middle-class white guy, George doesn't represent any demographic. And people have lots examples of middle class white guy. They are all over. People don't have lots of examples of geeks or geek culture.
There is a great TED talk about The problems of a single story that explains a lot of my complaints about the show.
I think the problem, for me, is that it is a geek comedy, but it isn't an intelligent comedy. Community. Now that is humor with some brains behind it. I find that my expectations for Big Bang Theory are just too high and that the show instead serves the common denominator.
Interesting views.
My biggest problem with th show is the aspies on parade angle. I know a few, and only one of them is a Sheldon. I also do find it to be a show about highly intelligent idiots, I'm not sure when it became that, but it certainly is that now.
Taste is always relative: some people love something, some people enjoy it sometimes but aren't a "fan", some people it is Not For Them, and some people are offended by it.
Paraphrasing (and probably badly), I believe it was Marilyn Manson who once said that those who take themselves too seriously end up becoming parodies of themselves.
I used to like BBT, and enjoy re-runs, but lately the only character that's interesting to me is Amy Farrah Fowler... I found the "Fun With Flags" youtube video she & Sheldon made last season hysterically amusing.
YMMV, as always.
George is fairly normal - at least as far as citcoms are concerned.
George is insanely self-absorbed, selfish, and cheap (I think that he caused his fiancee's death by buying cheap (and toxic) adhesive for the wedding invitations). He [b]is[\b] normal for a sitcom person - which is to say, he's a ridiculous caricature. Just like the characters on BBT.
But asside from middle-class white guy, George doesn't represent any demographic.
How about "Jewish" for a particular demographic?
Also, I think that most people don't confuse sitcoms with reality, so I'm not worried that folks will start thinking that all physicists are like the BBT guys.
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I find it unbearable. The laugh track is one of the reasons. Another is the unintelligent portrayal of characters that are 'TV smart', which means the writers are not as clever as they think they are and it really shows.
If you want clever humour and witty wordplay, watch Community (also no canned laughter!).
In Friends, Seinfield, and How I met your mother, the characters are fairly normal.
That's your definition of normal? Yikes...
For the record, I find all three of those shows atrocious. I've watched episodes of them against my will (stuck at a friend's house and he loves the show, etc.) and I'd say that most of those people are just as maladjusted, or more so, than any character on the Big Bang Theory aside from perhaps Sheldon.
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Cain,
The point is that I think you're too concerned with it. It's a sit com and not that big of a deal.
Will and Grace is not a good representation of gay people, but it was ground breaking in it's day. I think most moderately well adjusted people know that BBT and other sit coms aren't real life.
Will was a successful, intelligent, and fairly normal person who happened to be gay. He wasn't significantly more characturized than most other sitcom characters. He was one of the first people like that on a mainstream show, and certainly the first lead I can think of.
Contrast him with Sheldon, who is now the icon of Aspergers - today I actually listened people talking about how Aspergers people are like him at my work caffeteria. His defining character trait is asshat, and it comes accross in every interaction he makes. People now associate his level of dickishness with the disease. I know at least 3 people with the disease, and it is insulting to me that people relate him with them.
Will is not his analog. Jack is.
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Contrast him with Sheldon, who is now the icon of Aspergers - today I actually listened people talking about how Aspergers people are like him at my work caffeteria. His defining character trait is asshat, and it comes accross in every interaction he makes. People now associate his level of dickishness with the disease. I know at least 3 people with the disease, and it is insulting to me that people relate him with them.
I have Aspergers, my girlfriend has Aspergers. We both like the show. We also think Sheldon is an extreme case of someone with AS. Exagerated to the extreme becaue its a sit com. But I also feel there are other characters on she with AS, Amy for example has plenty of AS traits. I am not offended by Parsons' acting. But I can see where people would be.
I have also read the the creators, producers of the show did not set out to make Sheldon as someone with AS, that is just the way he ended up. The producers of the show once planed to do an episode where they explained Sheldon has AS. But they shelved the idea because they did not want to make it seem like when others were making fun of him, they are making fun of something he has no control over. I respect them for that. Sheldon gets his digs in, too. The character may not know it because of his AS, but he does.
Sheldon has other problems as well. It's not just Aspergers. He's obviously dealing with a case of OCD, snd has severe control issues. Combine that with a huge ego and a sketchy grasp of social graces...
I enjoy it.
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The show uses negative characatures of geek culture and makes a mockery of them.
I have mixed feelings about the show. On one hand, it's pretty funny and I like the subtle references. On the other hand, it's not so much a sit-com for geeks, as it is a sit-com for people who think that's what geeks are like.
I have a friend, a regular suit-and-tie business guy, who loves the show. Which makes sense to me, because it seems to me that he's exactly who the show is aimed at.
Me, I'm mostly just watching for the occasional City of Heroes reference. ;)
As Umbral Reaver mentions, I find Community a much better 'geek-reference-driven' show than Big Bang Theory.
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It is boring and has some annoying cliches.
1. Guys pining for the 'hot girl' (who is actually pretty ugly) with attention disorder. Girls like that oughta be ditched.
2. Pseudo-geeks who don't actually act like geeks but like mentally deficient people.
3. Constant 'jokes' revolving about stupid decisions.
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The show uses negative characatures of geek culture and makes a mockery of them.I have mixed feelings about the show. On one hand, it's pretty funny and I like the subtle references. On the other hand, it's not so much a sit-com for geeks, as it is a sit-com for people who think that's what geeks are like.
Argh, yes. This bugs me so much.
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Hate it. Partly due to the fact that it was one of five shows the roommates would put on permanent rotation, partly due to the fact that I was instantly deemed a Sheldon by virtue of the fact that I had some less severe quirks of personality. The jokes aren't that funny and draw exclusively from the pool of "Haha, nerds, obligatory easy pop culture reference." A one-note comedy. Which puts it at about the Family Guy level for me. Every episode is interchangeable.
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HATE with the passion of a thousand suns. Every time I go home for Christmas/whatever this is on the TV, since my mom enjoys it and it's pretty much in syndication every night of the week.
Reasons are as followed:
Laugh tracks: If you need a sound cue to let people know you made a joke, it's probably not funny.
Humor: It just isn't funny...I don't think I have laughed once.
The caricatures of nerds: For me personally, I feel this show is less about laughing along at nerds than it is laughing at nerds. I mean the whole show is centered about the "zaniness" of an attractive woman and nerd getting together, as if that was the most bizarre thing imaginable. Generally I don't find the humor very recent...most of the jokes seemed aimed at nerd stereotypes from a decade or more ago.
Contrast that with Community, which manages to feel like it's laughing along with nerds, and actually seems to include nerd references that are more recent and also from the inside.
I remember reading some article a whiles back contrasting the two shows and their audiences. There is apparently quite a bit of an age gap between Community and Big Bang Theory fans, with Community being most popular amongst the 35 and under crowd, and Big Bang Theory on the 40+ crowd. I wonder how much the differences in opinion on the show are results of differences in "geek" culture from say the 80's to now.
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Not a fan of the show. It just . . . I dunno . . . rubs me the wrong way, I suppose? That, and the jokes just fall flat for me. That's why I don't like "Always Sunny," either. I just don't find it funny. Zany awkwardness doesn't make me laugh; it makes me cringe. I don't like anything by Tim & Eric, either. Wil Wheaton, Jeff Goldblum, Weird Al, and other guest stars notwithstanding.
My favorite "Nerd Culture" television experience would probably be the British show "The IT Crowd." Maybe it's the cultural distance between the UK and the US that trips my laugh gland. I was brought up on Monty Python, after all.
Also, and this is nitpicky, but one of those characters wears a white vinyl belt. That is not nerdy; that is hipster-y. And those people need to go off to their own little ironic colony somewhere in the wilds of Canada where the local bear population can befriend them . . .
I enjoy the show. I don't find it surprising that some don't however. It's just the kind of entertainment that frankly is going to be a bit devisive for the geek community. It does use stereotype as a shortcut, but then almost all short timeframe stories need to do so because they don't have time to develop the characters from scratch in the time they have, and stereotypes are a shortcut. Like "orcs are evil."
I was a bit disappointed that in his interview for his guest appearance on Will Wheaton's web show, tabletop, that the cocreator Bill Prady indicated he wasn't in to games and other geek activities. (My paraphrasing, not his exact words.)
Removed a post. Don't be insulting to other posters (even in jest).
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The show is alright. I have a lot in common with the characters in that I am a physicist, a gamer (video games, tabletop rpgs, and MTG), love science fiction and fantasy, etc...
Believe it or not but I have met a few scientists like Sheldon in my professional life. However, most of them probably had some mild form of autism. I can see how that could be offensive.
I would like to note that all but one of my friends who fall into both the scientist camp and the geek camp love the show. They seem to relate to the characters because many of them are socially awkward and had a rough time in high school. I think being in both camps increases the likelihood that you were bullied growing up and have developed social deficiencies as a result. Not necessarily on the Sheldon level but definitely on the Leonard level. I am not like this at all though. I am super cool and get all of the ladies.
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HATE with the passion of a thousand suns. Every time I go home for Christmas/whatever this is on the TV, since my mom enjoys it and it's pretty much in syndication every night of the week.
Reasons are as followed:
Laugh tracks: If you need a sound cue to let people know you made a joke, it's probably not funny.
....
It is filmed live. Without the laugh track there would be weird awkward pauses. Seinfeld, that 70s show, and many great sitcoms had them.
Last episode I saw, one 'joke' was just a character listing a bunch of well-known video games.
That was it. Then the laugh track fired up.
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It's nerdexploitation, it's tropes are tired and stale, it no longer offers anything new or has anything clever or interesting to say about nerd/geek culture.
Community and The IT Crowd are far more clever have a lot more to offer.
Will is not his analog. Jack is.Cain,
The point is that I think you're too concerned with it. It's a sit com and not that big of a deal.
Will and Grace is not a good representation of gay people, but it was ground breaking in it's day. I think most moderately well adjusted people know that BBT and other sit coms aren't real life.
Will was a successful, intelligent, and fairly normal person who happened to be gay. He wasn't significantly more characturized than most other sitcom characters. He was one of the first people like that on a mainstream show, and certainly the first lead I can think of.
Contrast him with Sheldon, who is now the icon of Aspergers - today I actually listened people talking about how Aspergers people are like him at my work caffeteria. His defining character trait is asshat, and it comes accross in every interaction he makes. People now associate his level of dickishness with the disease. I know at least 3 people with the disease, and it is insulting to me that people relate him with them.
But Jack is counteracted by Will. By having both examples of gay people as major characters, they are not providing just 1 view. None of the characters on BBT are even remotely normal geeks, so the only view of them the show provides is extremely negative.
I love the show. I'm not offended by the stereotypical jokes. I spend my day living in reality and I like to end it with something I can relate to that still makes me laugh. It's not a big deal. It's no more of a big deal than when the Jeffersons or All in the Family did the same thing with the cultures they were focused on.
There are other non-sitcom shows that are similar, like Criminal Minds, CSI, 24, House, etc. They take an amalgam of characteristics and put them into one character and make an unrealistic character that is the extreme. Sure, there is probably a small population that fits the mold, but they aren't the norm. I don't think that most TV shows are supposed to represent the norm.
Removed a post. Don't be insulting to other posters (even in jest).
[grumble grumble]
Fine.
Big Bang Theory rules!!
The wife and I are fans. Laugh at the jokes and go 'ahhh' at the sweet bits. Occassionaly the other three are too cruel to Sheldon (the episode where they sabotage his expriments in the North Pole and it was Shelson's career on the line....)
Cheers
Mark