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This is something that has always bothered me. Why can't I trip a Gargantuan creature but can still grapple it if my CMB is high enough? Wouldn't it make more sense if it were the contrary?
(Actually, I think none of them should have a size restriction, you should always be capable of grabbing/tripping a CR appropriate enemy if you have a good enough CMB!)
I can't slash a creatures feets, knees, paws, whatever or use a chain to tangle its legs. I can't hammer its toes so it falls down in pain or pull him down with a chain.
But I can grapple and even pin it?
I've many stories where the hero trips a Giant, but I don't remember seeing one where he wrestles it to pin it down (well, maybe in the God of War series...)
Is there any reason for this rule? I know Trip was pretty good in 3.5, but so was Grapple. And neither of them is as effective in PF. Is there some balance issue I'm not seeing?
I feel kinda bad telling my players they can't attack the giant's kness so it falls prones. That's the classic way of fighting giants, right?
(I know I get to Trip them if I'm enlarged, I'm just saving words here)
I agree with you Lemmy, this has been a pain in my side since 3E. The reason is "realism" (note that before PF, you could not grapple more than +1 size bigger, either), but that's BS. If you can get a high enough modifier to actually have a shot of *winning* aganst the Tarrasque... you have clearly surpassed human limits of physical ability. So let the guy try it, damn it!
Of course, PF also massively lowered size bonuses. My argument was more compelling in 3E where each size up was a +4. You have the trip bonus to counteract a +16 size bonsu and the 30-40ish str it likely comes with...you earned the right to trip that guy!.
I agree with you Lemmy, this has been a pain in my side since 3E. The reason is "realism" (note that before PF, you could not grapple more than +1 size bigger, either), but that's BS. If you can get a high enough modifier to actually have a shot of *winning* aganst the Tarrasque... you have clearly surpassed human limits of physical ability. So let the guy try it, damn it!
Of course, PF also massively lowered size bonuses. My argument was more compelling in 3E where each size up was a +4. You have the trip bonus to counteract a +16 size bonsu and the 30-40ish str it likely comes with...you earned the right to trip that guy!.
That's exactly my thought, SotS! Damn, if you can break that mountain with a headbutt, why can't you trip a T-rex?
It seems odd that Paizo decided to keep one of the size limitations and do away with the other. I wonder if that's a mistake or distraction...
(I didn't even remember it was a +4 per size difference in 3.5, but I did remember it was way too difficult or simply impossible, depending on the creature size)
Do you think houseruling this limitation away would cause too much of a problem? I don't think so, but it's always good to ask other players' opinions.
Ewoks tripped an AT-ST with a rope, and so did snowpeeders with a cable, ya?
Not quite a precedent. Did Jack trip the Beanstalk Giant?
That's something I've always been a little unsure of, too.
I mean technically, I think you should be able to attempt any Combat Manoeuvre against any sized creature.
Grapple: You'd have a hard time grappling an Oliphaunt of Jandelay but with how small you are in comparison, you should be able to grapple its skin easily enough to climb it.
Pin: I think against Gargantuan creatures, this is the one with the silliest concept, but you all know of either Gulliver's Travels or Bruce Campbell's Army of Darkness (Evil Dead 3), so you know that in large numbers you can bring anything down (technically). It would just involve about 90 fairly strong and weighty humans assisting one another to accomplish this.
Trip: Well, it's already been stated. It works like you would knock down a building. You take out the supports (in this case, a Colossal creatures legs) and down comes the beast!
Disarm: Use a well aimed Trebuchet to smash that 200 foot tall Giant's Great Sword out of his hand.
The two I'm not too keen on seeing are Bull Rush and Overrun, but if you have machinery and vehicles capable of smashing into and running over these Gargantuan and Colossal creatures, that too could work. Though, I think out of all of the CM's, Bull Rush and Overrun should probably be the ones not ever allowed, as even in large number's, it'd be almost impossible to topple a living creature.
Sunder? Hmm, mechanics to Sunder bone would be great. :p
Multiple Humans can topple cars in reality, but a moving and intelligent creature that's 300 foot tall? You can try before it stamps on you, turning you into a pretty red purée. ;)
Ewoks tripped an AT-ST with a rope, and so did snowpeeders with a cable, ya?
Not quite a precedent. Did Jack trip the Beanstalk Giant?
Those are the exact scenes that came to my mind. And I think he did. Not sure, though.
I mean technically, I think you should be able to attempt any Combat Manoeuvre against any sized creature.
Exactly how I feel. The best thing about tabletop RPGs is the the freedom to try and do anything you want, evne if you have little to no chance of success!
Grapple: You'd have a hard time grappling an Oliphaunt of Jandelay but with how small you are in comparison, you should be able to grapple its skin easily enough to climb it.
Maybe use your whole strength to hold/twist one of its joints? Or pull it by the hair, tail or snout?
Pin: I think against Gargantuan creatures, this is the one with the silliest concept, but you all know of either Gulliver's Travels or Bruce Campbell's Army of Darkness (Evil Dead 3), so you know that in large numbers you can bring anything down (technically). It would just involve about 90 fairly strong and weighty humans assisting one another to accomplish this.
Well with enough people willing to help, you can could basically pin anything. Also, maybe some kinda of very effective joint lock or something, I can picture the image, but it does feel a bit absurd (although not out of the realm of possibility in a fantasy world!)
Trip: Well, it's already been stated. It works like you would knock down a building. You take out the supports (in this case, a Colossal creatures legs) and down comes the beast!
Tripping is the one that feels the most natural to me. I believe this to be the easiest combat maneuver to describe/picture/justify against massive opponents in game, and yet, it's strictly impossible!
Disarm: Use a well aimed Trebuchet to smash that 200 foot tall Giant's Great Sword out of his hand.
Well, if you are a 14th level Fighter, you are probably strong/skilled enough to jump and kick the Giant's club away. Or crush his fingers so he can't hold it, maybe even hit a nerve that forces him to open his hand (thus dropping his weapon)
The two I'm not too keen on seeing are Bull Rush and Overrun, but if you have machinery and vehicles capable of smashing into and running over these Gargantuan and Colossal creatures, that too could work. Though, I think out of all of the CM's, Bull Rush and Overrun should probably be the ones not ever allowed, as even in large number's, it'd be almost impossible to topple a living creature.
Yeah, Bull Rush and Overrun do seem absurd. Bull Rush I could see, if you are a very, very strong fella. Superman pushing a giant robot is easy to picture. But maybe Hulk (or an equally strong Fighter/Barbarian) could jump straight to the creatures stomach to push it back (but it doesn't look like this wouldn't cause any damage!). Overrun feels silly even for high fantasy. the player would have to provide a very good description of how he did it.
Sunder? Hmm, mechanics to Sunder bone would be great. :p
I too would like to see something like that!
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I'm going to voice an opposite opinion that it would make no sense for some 5 or 6 foot thing to be knocking over dinosaurs. There being a finite amount of force even a 18 strength human can apply to anything. Those are the kind of cinematic...things...that I do not enjoy having in a game. Most huge+ monsters don't even really care from a mechanics stand point that your giving them some minor penalties. I'd consider it a waste of actions that could be ending encounters and getting back into the game rather then slowing combat down so one character can look cool.
It sounds a lot more like you guys should be looking at the Called Shots rules in Ultimate Combat considering what it seems like you want combat maneuvers to do. Called Shots to legs can debilitate them and knock things prone, etc.
(Also, blargh is Return of the Jedi just awful having watched it recently. So boring and phoned in.)
Grapple: You'd have a hard time grappling an Oliphaunt of Jandelay but with how small you are in comparison, you should be able to grapple its skin easily enough to climb it.
Pin: I think against Gargantuan creatures, this is the one with the silliest concept, but you all know of either Gulliver's Travels or Bruce Campbell's Army of Darkness (Evil Dead 3), so you know that in large numbers you can bring anything down (technically). It would just involve about 90 fairly strong and weighty humans assisting one another to accomplish this.
I'm not sure if I like the idea of pinning such a giant creature, but tied up? Definitely. Remember, you can tie up without pinning at a +10 to their CMD. That fits in perfectly with Army of Darkness. Think of all the +2's that came about from all the little Bruces aiding the trip. :)
But then Bruce, like Gulliver, was able to break free with a strength check - the ropes just weren't strong enough to hold them. Maybe if they had Professor Farnsworth's unbreakable diamond tether (it belonged to his grandmother, dontchaknow).
As for grapple? Grabbing and clinging on is part of the grapple. I would allow that in my game with huge bonuses so long as the grappled condition doesn't apply to the gargantuan creature.
I'm going to voice an opposite opinion that it would make no sense for some 5 or 6 foot thing to be knocking over dinosaurs. There being a finite amount of force even a 18 strength human can apply to anything.
I would agree with you here. There is a finite amount of force that a 18 Strength human could apply. Thats 18 str. Thats a lvl 1 character. How about a 50 str character?
Human ragechemist 1/Barbarian 19
Ragechemist grants true strike spell, +6 str mutigen
Barbarian grants 19 BAB, +6 str rage, strength surge
Feats are imp bull rush, gr bull rush, eldritch heritage, improved eldritch heritage (ork)
starting str 18, 2 racial, 5 levels, 6 ragechemist, 6 greater rage, 6 belt of giant strength, 6 eldritch heritage =49 strength
19 BAB, 2 charging bonus, 20 true strike, 19 strength surge, 2 imp bull rush, 2 gr bull rush, 18 touch of rage, 19 str modifier =101 CMB for bull rushing... Wowzers I broke 100
The Tarrasque has a CMD of 66, I have a CMB of 101 yet I cannot even budge the thing.
Sarge:
Me: But sarge... I... I... I cant!
Sarge:
Granted that is a level 20, but even a level 6 char could have 60 CMB if he specialized for it. Without true strike it does drop to 40, but this is still low levels.
ragechemist 1/Barbarian 5
Ragechemist grants true strike spell, +6 mutigen
Barbarian grants 5 BAB, +4 str rage, Strength surge
Feats are imp bull rush, eldritch heritage (ork)
starting str 18, 2 racial, 1 levels, 6 ragechemist, 4 rage, 2 belt of giant strength =33
5 BAB, 2 charging bonus, 20 true strike, 5 strength surge, 2 imp bull rush, 4 touch of rage, 11 str modfier=59 CMB for bull rushing
Tripping someone is not just about grabbing their leg and shoving. It can be about interfering with the motions needed for balance.
The problem is the (perceived) definitions of the words "trip" and "grapple".
Real-world tripping is dead easy - when the target is moving fast enough. However, taking movement into account in a turn-based game system usually ends up as a kludge. Adding movement to the tripping rules would become a double-kludge. And so the games' version of "trip" becomes: pulling legs from under the body. Which is pretty much impossible when that body weighs a few ton.
Pathfinder's "grapple" is really just "grab/hang on to". You can grab someone by the arm, and that's a grapple. You can hang from a mammoth's fur, and that's a grapple too - for all the good it'll do you.
My cat found an interesting game once... In our house we have a hallway like a T and the cat would wait at the bottom of it for me to walk past. He would then attempt to run as fast as he could and try and make it in-between my legs as I walked past. Needless to say gravity was proved on those days and a fond memory was forged. Stupid cat....
Ya even small animals can trip you up, if they have actual knowledge on how to do it best, even large prey can stumble.
I guess it would be harder for the cat to trip you if, rather than trying to avoid to hurt it, you didn't care about stomping on it.
With the tough hide Gargantuan creatures usually have, the razor sharp blade of the cat would be more like a raspy stick in the comparison.
Also, if you have Gargantuan-sized marbles, you're free to let them loose on the field.
i can get it into my head better that its easier to trip a G than grapple it
Just put the minis next to each and stare in despair at how the medium pins the G
having just finished KM there have been a few G minis on the mat
I guess it would be harder for the cat to trip you if, rather than trying to avoid to hurt it, you didn't care about stomping on it.
I think the cat would have a bigger chance of succeeding than if it was trying to pin you down. Not grapple. Pin Down.
And yet, I can theoretically pin down the Rune Giant. But tripping it? No! That's too absurd, apparently.
A cat can trip you because once yuo realize its there you are actively trying not to stomp it into a greasy puddle.
If your cat is *attacking you* then you are suddenly alot less worried about injuring it and alot More worried about it not injuring you.
Now imagine that cat holding a sword, and trying to gut you with it.
That cat isn't going to trip you no matter how hard it tries. And in trying, its quite likely to get your boot to connect with the floor with its skull inbetween the two in a nice satisfying crunchy sound. or its side, or whatever.
In short- your cat trips you because you choose to tumble rather than to flatten it to the floor. (whether the cat is agile to move out of the way is another matter. its your pet and you don't want to injure it. presumably).
Its the same way you can stumble over any small thing on the floor. Most of hte time the actual "tumble" is in effort not to break/smash/destroy said item rather than an actual inability on your part to put your foot down and not fall.
As for the Ewoks.. they didn't trip anything. They set up a trap, and it fell into the trap.
Not one ewok ran up with a melee weapon and tried to *trip* the walkers.
Why? because it at best wouldn't have worked, and at worst would have ended up with flattened ewok.
Vs something that much larger than you, you just have no effective method to trip it. Sure you are strong- goodie. but you still can't apply effective force against something that much larger and more massive than you are. And once you are there and do try its far more likely to just step on you.
-S
I guess it would be harder for the cat to trip you if, rather than trying to avoid to hurt it, you didn't care about stomping on it.I think the cat would have a bigger chance of succeeding than if it was trying to pin you down. Not grapple. Pin Down.
And yet, I can theoretically pin down the Rune Giant. But tripping it? No! That's too absurd, apparently.
Yes, it's absurd enough that you can pin it down. But it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you can't normally trip it.
The two are separate matters, not mutually excluding in one way or the opposite.
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This is something that has always bothered me. Why can't I trip a Gargantuan creature but can still grapple it if my CMB is high enough? Wouldn't it make more sense if it were the contrary?
(Actually, I think none of them should have a size restriction, you should always be capable of grabbing/tripping a CR appropriate enemy if you have a good enough CMB!)
I can't slash a creatures feets, knees, paws, whatever or use a chain to tangle its legs. I can't hammer its toes so it falls down in pain or pull him down with a chain.
But I can grapple and even pin it?
I've many stories where the hero trips a Giant, but I don't remember seeing one where he wrestles it to pin it down (well, maybe in the God of War series...)
Is there any reason for this rule? I know Trip was pretty good in 3.5, but so was Grapple. And neither of them is as effective in PF. Is there some balance issue I'm not seeing?
I feel kinda bad telling my players they can't attack the giant's kness so it falls prones. That's the classic way of fighting giants, right?
(I know I get to Trip them if I'm enlarged, I'm just saving words here)
i hate to break this to you but in a world with flying dragons that spit acid and frost, mages that say "alakazam" and throw small balls of bat crap at people and cause explosions that have no pressure, in a world where ninjas can turn invisible by spending a ki point...
you cannot break the concepts of physics and logic!!!
i really hate how people give fighters crap about things "that dont make sense" but that mage can pull a frackin deamon out of a hat and thats OK!!!!
jump 20 feet in full plate, no!! shoot lazers out of your eyes that turn people to stone, HELL YES THAT MAKES SENSE!!!
DUH people its magic...
The thing is, you can kill a Dragon by biting its tail. Is that really more realistic than, I dunno, clobbering its ankles with a hammer so it falls down?
I'm pretty sure The Incredible Hulk could push the AT-ST away making it fall, sure, he'd probably just smash it to pieces, but the point is, he could push it away.
While I understand the argument about cats tripping you only because you don't want to hurt it, I don't think there is any real life cat with a CMB high enough to trip a human. Or the intelligence. Or the martial prowess.
A Mid/High level fighter (When he's likely to face Gargantuan creatures) proabably has all 3. He's not just a housecat, he's a housecat with the strength of a lion and the training and real life experience of a hero.
It should not be strictly impossible to trip or *insert-any-combat-maneuver-here*, just very hard. "Cats can't trip a human. Ever." is not a Law of Nature. Cats just usually can't trip a human because they lack the Strength to do so. Give the cat super physical attributes and it'll be more than capable of bringing you down.
Also, cats can't Pin humans down either, but that's possible in PF.
i really hate how people give fighters crap about things "that dont make sense" but that mage can pull a frackin deamon out of a hat and thats OK!!!!
jump 20 feet in full plate, no!! shoot lazers out of your eyes that turn people to stone, HELL YES THAT MAKES SENSE!!!
DUH people its magic...
I feel the same way, bro. Why are fighters restrained by "realism" while wizards can stop time, turn rocks into living people and summon angels?
Why is magic more acceptable than a freaking 20th level fighter throwing a mountain at the dragon! He's 20th level! He should be able to face gods by now! (lesser gods, but still...)
Anyone see the movie "Thor"? The 2011 one with Chris Hemsworth.
Remember that scene where Thor places the hammer down on Loki, and Loki gets pinned to the ground? You can see it in this video between 3:38 - 3:45 (Sorry, it's the only one I could find that had the scene longer than half a second).
That's what I think of when I see a puny little human with MASSIVE strength pinning down a gigantic monster.
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i pinned a cow in reall life by grabbing its neck and applying pressure to the nerves in its neck. had it pinned for about 3 seconds until it tossed me off. i only have about a 12-13 strength by D&D standards, so i could see something similar to a huge sized creature, assuming the character had the ability to apply enough pain to the proper nerves.
but yeah, my rule for D&D is if you want to apply logic to one aspect of the game, you need to apply it to ALL aspects of the game. that means no spell casting, no flying creatures bigger then medium, no healing magic ect...
so if your arguement is "it doesnt make sense that a medium character can grapple a colossal" or "you cant trip something that big because" then you need to take ALL the magic, all the SA and SP abilities from your game, because "it doesnt make sense that you can..."
i pinned a cow in reall life by grabbing its neck and applying pressure to the nerves in its neck. had it pinned for about 3 seconds until it tossed me off. i only have about a 12-13 strength by D&D standards, so i could see something similar to a huge sized creature, assuming the character had the ability to apply enough pain to the proper nerves.
The OP wasn't talking about huge creatures, he was talking about gargantuan creatures. Look at this image
In order, that's tiny, small, medium, large, huge, gargantuan, and colossal.
Your cow comparison would be medium to large. Your statement talks about medium to huge (the green colored giant in the image). The OP is asking about medium to gargantuan (the giant purple worm thingy).
However, this is a fantasy game, and it should be allowed. Just with great difficulty. Or with one heck of a lot of buddies to give +2 for aid another. :)
However, this is a fantasy game, and it should be allowed. Just with great difficulty.
Exactly. Bolded for emphasis.
And ask yourself this question. The colossal oliphaunts of Middle Earth, could you imagine any way in which you'd have one of the company try to trip them and not look exceedingly stupid or cartoonish?
How about slashing its legs? Or dealing a massive blow with a club behind its knees? I don't think any of the martial protagonists was above 6th~7th level, so they shouldn't be capable of tripping the creature.
Pathfinder fantasy especially in Golarion is aimed towards verisimilitude, not the cartoon stunts you'd find in "Fairly Odd Parents".
Verisimilitude only makes sense if it's applied consistently. The wizard is still flying, shooting fire, petrifying people and summoning demons and angels.
That burly guy over there not only just got stronger and healthier, but he also grew fangs and wings because he was really angry.
The dude in a black pajamas turned invisible after creating illusory copies of himself. He's capable of doing so because... I dunno, he meditates a lot?
That Gargantuan lizard (who by the way, can breathe fire/ice/acid/lighting) that is about as aerodynamic as an anchor is flying. Extraordinary flight too, not by some maigc force. It's propelled by wings.
However, this is a fantasy game, and it should be allowed. Just with great difficulty.Exactly. Bolded for emphasis.Fantasy does not mean "WB" or "Road Runner" physics. Look up the concept known as "verisimilitude" sometime to get a sense of what I'm talking about. And ask yourself this question. The colossal oliphaunts of Middle Earth, could you imagine any way in which you'd have one of the company try to trip them and not look exceedingly stupid or cartoonish?
Pathfinder fantasy especially in Golarion is aimed towards verisimilitude, not the cartoon stunts you'd find in "Fairly Odd Parents".
Conversely, do you really think anyone in the company would have a 30 or 40 strength score? Or even the 50 Strength score that Gobo Horde built above?
Because a level 20 Barbarian isn't the Incredible Hulk?
I don't mind the game having limits on trip, but I think grapple should have them also, but with a feat....
It is easier for me to trip someone, unless that trip is really a "throw", than it is for me to hold them in place. Even then though I can get a bigger person off their feet easier than I can hold him in place. There is no way a tiny creature is grappling or pinning a huge creature without killing verisimilitude for me.
Oh, dear.
The discussion has reached the point of pitting The Incredible Hulk against an AT-ST.
I know! Awesome, right?
Because a level 20 Barbarian isn't the Incredible Hulk?
During World War Hulk he even had a greatsword!
An his son Skaar is basically a green Conan.
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How about slashing its legs? Or dealing a massive blow with a club behind its knees? I don't think any of the martial protagonists was above 6th~7th level, so they shouldn't be capable of tripping the creature.
That is not Tripping, that is Attacking. You trip in place of a melee attack, not using a melee attack.
Use the Called Shots rules from Ultimate Combat in your game as those rules do exactly what you want to do. That is what Called Shots to the leg could do to big things if you debilitate them.
Here's one way to "trip" a gargantuan creature. Watch the Hulk take on Giant Man. It's in the first 30-45 seconds.
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Use the Called Shots rules from Ultimate Combat in your game as those rules do exactly what you want to do. That is what Called Shots to the leg could do to big things if you debilitate them.
I don't think 'require a critical hit or more than 50 points of damage' is the success condition he was looking for. After all, you don't have to score a crit to grapple them.
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One of the big changes Pathfinder made from 3.5 was to collapse all the maneuver rules into a single mechanic.
This massively increased playability but the cost was to make many things less realistic.
The rules work quite well for the usual cases of things being within one size category of each other with reasonably comparable strengths etc. They often fail egregiously for edge cases. But they're playable as written.
Despite the realism sometimes bothering me (see the grappling weasel thread for an egregiously silly but legal example) I think that this rules change was one of the best things that Pathfinder did.
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I don't think 'require a critical hit or more than 50 points of damage' is the success condition he was looking for. After all, you don't have to score a crit to grapple them.
I disagree with you. Given the tone that this thread has taken I don't think 50 points of damage is any sort of issue, and even if it is that's just the game working properly as you don't have 100% success rates on everything you do.
Seriously man, they're talking about The Incredible Hulk versus Star Wars vehicles.
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I disagree with you. Given the tone that this thread has taken I don't think 50 points of damage is any sort of issue, and even if it is that's just the game working properly as you don't have 100% success rates on everything you do.
Seriously man, they're talking about The Incredible Hulk versus Star Wars vehicles.
If they are building for Str, which one would do to mimic the Hulk, by the time you are fighting Gargantuan creatures you would most likely be dealing 50 points of damage a hit. Thus, using the Called Shots system with full BAB attack bonus and the -2 for a shot to the leg is always going to be a 100% success rate barring a natural one on the die.
If they are building for Dex, they will have to have Dex to damage or never be able to accomplish the 50 damage a hit to cause a trip, and only trip on a critical hit.
Your suggestion does not fit the idea of 'CMB to trip Gargantuan creatures'.
Anyone who is questioning grapple size discrepancies, keep in mind that a thumb lock can easily be applied by someone significantly smaller than you. In fact, I dare say that I could conceive of ways for a PF character to execute it on someone with a 6 foot long thumb.
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I would absolutely houserule that you can trip creatures of any size. In fact, I've probably allowed it in the past without realizing it was a rule.
It's a tough decision though.
1) Monk tries to sweep the leg. Sick squish as he kicks the dragon's leg... and nothing happens. Humorous, but ineffective.
2) Monk does some mystical ki crap and overturns the Tarrasque. Awesome, not unbalancing at all (EXCEPT FOR THE TARRASQUE! ZING!), but a bit silly looking.
I think it just depends on your game group.
Seriously man, they're talking about The Incredible Hulk versus Star Wars vehicles.
Would it be more realistic if I said "16th level barbarian versus The Tarrasque"?
Is that any less impossible? Does it sound better for you? Does it make any difference?
A 16th level barbarian can have a 30+ Strength. Is it too mcuh to assume he can push/pull an enemy's limb? Maybe break the ground where he standing, or punch it behind the knees so it loses balance? Hold it by the shirt/armor/scale/jaw and pull it down?
Seriously, you can't picture that at all? Is it really too much in a world with walking skeletons, flying Gargantuan lizards and creatures whose flesh is literally pure fire?
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Don't forget that when you grapple a creature, that creature literally cannot move, even if he's gargantuan vs. the grappling small barbarian. So, said uber-high strength barbarian can completely stop the Tarrasque from moving (among other things) via grappling, but not trip it? Where's your verisimilitude in that, LazarX?
Seriously, you can't picture that at all? Is it really too much in a world with walking skeletons, flying Gargantuan lizards and creatures whose flesh is literally pure fire?
They seriously can't. This is why noncasters are doomed to suck. Because majority or minority, the highly vocal group of "fighters must be REAL" are very quick to anger and very adamant in their refusal to buy/play any product that doesn't cater to thier outlook.
This is also why I hate the fighter, because he, above all others, is expected to be mundane 4ever, but also to "be the best at fighting." So he ends up dragging down every other noncaster with him. If the grognards could accept an "old school fighter" that is explicitly expected to be worse than all the other classes, who did nothing but hit things for damage and maybe some combat maneuvers...I wouldn't care. They get their gimp class, I get my awesome ninjas that garrote foes from whole other planes of existence, monks that punch mountains and cause rockslides/avalanches, and so forth.