I realize that Aroden and Abadar have very different portfolios and domains, but it seems like most of what Abadar stands for is included in Aroden's portfolio. This is more evident when you consider that creating civilizations seems to be a primarily human endeavor, looking at the Inner Sea map, I see between three and five dwarven nations (all but one of which are city states), one for elves, one for orcs, and the rest are human.
So, when Aroden was still kicking, was Abadar a primarily nonhuman deity, and did he have a massive uptick in followers after Aroden assumed room temperature, or am I missing something?
In my version of Golarion, the Church of Abadar primary role in society is that of a trustworthy international bank. (It helps your credibility to have a deity on your side!)
Before the Age of Lost Omens, I would imagine that the Church of Abadar was somewhat less popular than the Church of Aroden, but still filled the role of international bank. I also see the Church of Aroden as being a much more expansive and activist faith than the more stodgy and conservative (and profit-focused) Church of Abadar.
I think it's canon that most followers of Aroden joined the Church of Iomedae after Aroden's death.
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Abadar was an Azlanti deity from before Aroden's time.
During that time, according to a super-minor AP spoiler...
Abadar's incarnation in Azlant focused more on his roles as a god of cities and wealth than as a god of law.
So, because of that, it seems he was "left over" from when the Azlanti Empire fell, and slowly became more Aroden-like over time (probably influenced by the powerful leverage Aroden had over the Azlanti-successor-state Taldor, combined with his own actions over time).
Plus, Abadar is worshiped in Tian-Xia as god of ditches and walls, so he could have had his worship "sustained" over there.
That said, gods don't necessarily need worship, according to Mr. Jacobs, but that's a few ways in which his worship could have propagated itself. Added to Druma's focus on wealth (and minor association with Abadar by default)...
Also, Abadar's focus as god of civilization is both more narrow and more broad than Aroden's focus as god of humanity. Dwarves have civilization (and needed to establish their own once again, once they reached the surface), elves have civilization (and have been tenaciously clinging to what little of there's was left until recently), and Halflings aren't covered by anyone other than Abadar, civilization-wise (though, of course, other gods could apply to other races).
Aroden, on the other hand, by being the god of humanity (specifically "human culture"), is also the god of human barbarians, human rangers, and other human cultures that don't mesh well with "civilization".
Just to get some clarity, let's look at a few gods, including the two you mention and some that are at least vaguely related:
Abadar (Lawful Neutral): cities, wealth, merchants, law
Aroden (Lawful Neutral): human culture, innovation, history
Irori (Lawful Neutral): history, knowledge, self-perfection
Iomedae (Lawful Good): valor, rulership, justice, honor
Findeladlara (Chaotic Good): art, architecture, twilight
I dropped Irori into the above because he and Aroden actually have a portfolio element that overlap - they're exactly the same. I suppose that since Aroden was strongly Inner Sea-Centric that Irori simply maintained the base of his power as god of history in non-Inner Sea lands (specifically Vudra and Tian-Xia).
I dropped Iomedae into the above because she's literally Aroden' inheritor - she's the one who acquired his divinity and who accepted his church into her own. She... looks nothing like him.
I added Findellara because she's the only other deity I saw on quick search that has the word "innovation" in her description:
She is a goddess who believes in preserving tradition and prefers innovation rather than creating something entirely new.
Innovation, when used this way, actually gives us a clue to how Aroden and Abadar interact:
Abadar seems to be either the preserver (staunch and unchanging) or the absolutely new-everything (The newest, the brightest, the bestest!)... or maybe both. As contrary as that may seem, consider it like hording, in which Abadar wants everything that's ever been and all of the brand-spanking new stuff. What's done with it isn't that important, it's having the stuff that is.
By contrast, Aroden really doesn't seem to care what you have, per say, but rather - to use the cliche phrase - "it's how you use it." I.e., as a god of innovation, Aroden was constantly encouraging people to take whatever it was that they currently had and finding new and different uses for it. This meant less new specific technology, perhaps, but lots of new and varied ways for using the existing tech.
Further, while Aroden was a lawful god, he's not the god of law. Absolutely any race - even the most chaotic ones - have a need for "law" in some fashion or another (it's one of those little paradoxes), and human culture doesn't equate to civilization. Innovation might be great for them, but both wealth and merchants are very different.
The closest god, by comparison, is easily Irori - both Aroden and Irori have history as part of their portfolio, and both are super-adventurers of extreme longevity who eventually ascended to godhood by merit of their actions, and left suggested paths behind them for others to do similarly.
Yet no one would ever confuse them, because they're actually quite different! I think at least part of the conflation between Aroden and Abadar (I know this was true for me, originally, at least) is the fact that both of there names start with an "A", and have both "r" and "d" as important parts and are both three syllables long. As a dyslexic with a bad memory for names, that's a perfect recipe for me to make the two into a single god (which I did when I was first introduced to Golarion). Add that to already-similar-seeming (though really quite different) portfolio elements and I could see how, even if you're not fooled by the names themselves, the power of suggestion could make their portfolio elements seem even more similar (and thus redundant) than they actually are.
But they're actually so very different, that it's not too much of a surprise that they're both worshiped.
For a real-world example, let's take Judaism, Christianity, and Islam: 1) All three are monotheistic faiths which revolve around the worship of a deity who, according to all three scriptures, contacted an ancient prophet named Abraham.
2) They all make a call for self-control, honor, and respect for proper (divinely inspired) authority.
3) All three have prophets, angels, and a complicated hierarchy of spiritual and mortal creatures.
4) All revolve around ideas of sin, sacrifice, proper spiritual elements, and redemption.
5) All claim that Abraham's deity is the actual divine Creator of the world, and all claim that Abraham's son (and descendants through him) is the rightful inheritor of Abraham's blessing.
Taken on that level, they seem practically identical. But the post Hebraic Bible (or Old Testament) Rabbinical/Jewish teachings, the New Testament Christian teachings, and the Quran are extremely different from one another, and no one would really confuse them if more of their "character" was revealed.
So too is Abadar and Aroden (though, I think, there is less interfaith strife between the two churches) - on the surface they may seem similar, but dig just a bit deeper, they're actually quite different.
Wow that was really well done tacticslion, enjoyed reading it.
Also popped a weird image in my head
On the next episode of Golarion Hoarders, Abadar's Vault. "Really Abadar do you need one of EVERYTHING? How about we start with a small pile of things you can live without and then work from there...and whats with all these old newspapers?"
STUFF!!!!
Tacticslion often has lots of well thought out info in his posts. But usually they are so long with so many incidentals, I just skim read them. Did the same with this one, but liked it so much I reread it taking my time.
This post is
MY FAVORITE POST BY TACTICSLION!! (so far of the ones I have read :P )
If you ever do a Google docs guide to Golarion gods, I would love to see it. Some really nice insights.
Greg
Hey, thanks, Benoc (I love the show idea)!
I'm glad you liked it so much, Greg!
And, yes, I tend to talk waaaayyyyyyy too much (in real life as well, just ask my wife) and I tend to ramble, soooooooooo... heh, sorry.
Anyway, I suspect that if I could ever structure my rambling thoughts well enough to clean up my presentation I'd be on to something. As it is, I kind of give off a stream-of-consciousness thing, even when edited. Ah, well.
The TL;DR version of the above:
1) Abadar was from Azlant before Aroden and his worship "survived" through Taldor.
2) Abadar and Aroden - despite slightly similar nomenclature - are quite different in both personality and presentation, and their portfolios cover different enough aspects that the two don't overlap. Some quick deity comparisons (adding in Irori, Iomedae, and the elven Findeladlara) let us pick up on how they might be different.
3) Tacticslion talks way too much. (EDIT: And also has spelling and grammar errors. Agh! Why didn't I catch all the spelling and grammar errors?! Ugh...)
I agree, that was pretty great Tacticslion. I just have one complaint about it actually, one that doesn't have anything to do with anything you said.
I have all of the "Faiths of" series, why haven't I ever heard of Findeladlara? I realize she's probably fairly minor and not well known outside of the elves, but Faiths of Purity has Kurgess, the god of friendly competition.