Settlement stat blocks, magic items in particular confuse me a little bit.
It lists an amount of items, like 3d4 minor items or something. So lets say you do the rolls, and you come up with items that are under the base value. Let's say the base value is 8k, and you roll up a wand that costs 750. Isn't that wand most likely available anyway? (75% chance)
If so, why does it go on the list of available items? Does one have to pay to have items created that aren't on the list? If that's the case, then what does it mean that there is a 75% chance to find a magic item.
Aside from all of this, how do you handle shopping and magic items in your games? I dont like the idea of a magic supermarket that has whatever someone wants, but it seems like that is what exists as far as under the base value goes.
I treat things like the wand as those are guaranteed in stock for a little While.
Or I will re-roll if I get identical items. I usually just build the town apply a Stat block then populate the shops with what I want available.
Settlement stat blocks, magic items in particular confuse me a little bit.
It lists an amount of items, like 3d4 minor items or something. So lets say you do the rolls, and you come up with items that are under the base value. Let's say the base value is 8k, and you roll up a wand that costs 750. Isn't that wand most likely available anyway? (75% chance)
If so, why does it go on the list of available items? Does one have to pay to have items created that aren't on the list? If that's the case, then what does it mean that there is a 75% chance to find a magic item.
Aside from all of this, how do you handle shopping and magic items in your games? I dont like the idea of a magic supermarket that has whatever someone wants, but it seems like that is what exists as far as under the base value goes.
In the rules for the buying magic items, isn't there a provision saying if the item is under the the limit roll again?
If something isn't available (rolled 76%+) a new roll can be made in 1 week. As a GM if you want to make the item available you could (like a potion or item that could be made in 1 day), maybe tack on a 10% fee for crafting it on demand. The "list" is for items that are floating around and more expensive than the settlement has normally. Think about it like a rare super expensive item that stays on the market because no one is able to buy it. That is the list. If it isn't on the list, you can decide to roll some other items when the party comes back at a later date. Generally if the characters want something specific, find someplace else to shop (bigger market with higher gp limit) or craft it themselves. That is what those feats are for after all.
Magic items aren't supposed to be inordinately hard to obtain. The rules for wealth figure in and don't count a certain amount of consumables for the character. They also figure in that the character has access to certain bonus amounts and types, as well as abilities outside their normal class granted ones.
Settlement stat blocks, magic items in particular confuse me a little bit.
It lists an amount of items, like 3d4 minor items or something. So lets say you do the rolls, and you come up with items that are under the base value. Let's say the base value is 8k, and you roll up a wand that costs 750. Isn't that wand most likely available anyway? (75% chance)
If so, why does it go on the list of available items? Does one have to pay to have items created that aren't on the list? If that's the case, then what does it mean that there is a 75% chance to find a magic item.
Aside from all of this, how do you handle shopping and magic items in your games? I dont like the idea of a magic supermarket that has whatever someone wants, but it seems like that is what exists as far as under the base value goes.
It's not assumed that an all-inclusive "Ye Olde Magic Shoppe" is just sitting around the corner in every town... in fact, you certainly shouldn't assume that. On the other hand, if a player who is in town wants to buy a magic item that isn't too obscure (say, a belt of physical might), the DM should just allow the purchase. The goal here is to keep it simple - not to unrealistically assume that every item in the game is always available to buy.
I'm pretty sure the core rulebook mentions this (though I'm too lazy to actually look it up right now), but the general rule of thumb to role-play the easy purchase (if role-play is needed) is to assume that the player actually has to ask around town about the items and that they're spread around - sometimes, yes, an item shouldn't be available for sale, but usually there should be some way of the player knowing where/how to get the item... perhaps one of the shopkeepers heard one time of a nearby traveling merchant being in possession of one. In short, regardless of how you role-play it, a player should be able to buy a specific magic item that he can afford, even if it means he has to do a bit of legwork to get it.
In my game, under normal circumstances, players can generally just buy and sell stuff when they're in town as normal... no need to role-play it or look up rules. Some circumstances, however, do call for me to step in sometimes and implement the settlement size rules, role-play the shopkeepers, place some limitations, etc (e.g. the players are in a very small settlement, the players for whatever reason pissed off the shopkeeper, the players are trying to sell 12 chain shirts at 1 time or some oddity like that, etc).
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Actually the "Ye Olde Magic Shoppe" is a basic assumption of the Core Rules. When a character goes to look for an item there, as long as it is within the gp limit of the settlement size, three quarters of the time it is there.
When dealing with a "little to no magic setting" there may be no items for sale BUT you as the GM should make appropriate steps to make up for that choice.
It's covered on page 460 of the core book (if you decide to stop being lazy and check up on it ;)
We've been playing Rise of the Runelords for a while, and what Fiendish Dire Weasel did was roll up the items for Sandpoint, and then list which shops had which items within them.
Magnimar got a bit less detailed of a workup, given less details on the shops included in the AP, but as we adventured, he would alter the lists based on what seemed likely to have sold since we last visited. There was a decent turnover of minor magic items, particularly among scrolls and potions, but some of the major staves stuck around since our first visit, because /we/ were the market they were intended for.
Sandpoint turnover was less rapid, since we had resolved most of the issues that would attract adventurers there.
I am also in a Serpent's Skull campaign, and our DM there rolled up everything for Sargava, and then decided which items would be possessed by which NPCs, if they didn't fit the few shops that dealt in items. +5 adamantine fullplate shouldn't just sit on a dusty manequin when there's a Dwarven Cleric around that could be wearing it after all ;)
Normally what I do is to just wing it. If a character is looking for a specific item, I just do what I call a "story check", meaning I decide how the acquisition of the item can be used to advance the story. For common items it usually just ends up being best for the story for the item to be available. Rare items might be best for the story to just not be available. Often the availability becomes part of the story. I used this example on the boards before, but one of my players' characters once wanted a specific magic scimitar. The local magic shop didn't have one, but it turned out that the storekeeper had once sold one to a local rich and eccentric collector of weapons. Perhaps the party had something they could exchange with the collector to obtain the scimitar? The end result was the acquisition of the scimitar was woven into the story and gave the party more clues about the nature of the threat they were up against. The eccentric weapon collector loaned them his scimitar while the local weaponsmith made a new one, and the party did the weapon collector a small service in exchange. The process allowed the party to use several "soft" skills such as diplomacy, bluff, appraise and sense motive. This allowed the party "face" to really use his abilities.
I do that sort of thing all the time. It's an easy hook since the character wants something and you can use that to engage the player in the story.
I discourage excessive magic item shopping, outlaw magic item crafting in most instances (it is for npcs) and fill settlements with items of my own make, or make some rolls.
Actually the "Ye Olde Magic Shoppe" is a basic assumption of the Core Rules. When a character goes to look for an item there, as long as it is within the gp limit of the settlement size, three quarters of the time it is there.
I basically follow the same rules. I find penalizing players for being in a small town by not letting them find the items they want is the fastest way to convince them they should get out of the burbs and head to the closest metropolis.
While this may seem overly generous I prefer to keep my players more focused on the story and less on planed trips to go shopping the next time they aren't "forced" to save some tiny hamlet and can get back to civilization.
But to each their own! Whatever makes things fun for both you and your players.
Happy gaming!
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I basically just do it as handwavium and common sense. If, for example, the characters are in Daggermark in the River Kingdoms, home to the celebrated Poisoners Guild, chances are pretty good you're going to be able to get any poison you want, no questions asked, and in bulk if you feel like it. And the only reason they might be out is they had some temporary shortage with a supplier and the stuff is on order.
If you go the markets of Katapesh, where the point of the place is that everything is for sale for a price, then whatever you want, they're going to have, even and especially if they shouldn't. It's that sort of place.
Treat it like reality. If you want high-end fashion, you go to Paris, Milan, New York, or Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills. You do not go to a strip mall in Fresno.
If you are at the strip mall in Fresno and need access to a fashion mecca, you road trip it down to Beverly Hills--or over to Vegas, which is not a bad bet either.
If you're in a fantasy world and you need a magic sword, you go to the place that has the magic sword shop or the magic sword smith, if not both.
It depends on what sort of players you have. If they are the sort who demand magic marts and magic item crafting by the truckload, then you may be forced to allow it. On the other hand, if they are used to just doing cool stuff and actually earning the magical equipment, the game is alot easier. I've come across some who actually prefer it that way. Somewhat second ed. like. Also allows ample opportunity to roleplay up certain social situations. Just tailor it according to your group but keep a measure of balance. Don't allow the game to be broken.
I basically just do it as handwavium and common sense. If, for example, the characters are in Daggermark in the River Kingdoms, home to the celebrated Poisoners Guild, chances are pretty good you're going to be able to get any poison you want, no questions asked, and in bulk if you feel like it. And the only reason they might be out is they had some temporary shortage with a supplier and the stuff is on order.
If you go the markets of Katapesh, where the point of the place is that everything is for sale for a price, then whatever you want, they're going to have, even and especially if they shouldn't. It's that sort of place.
Treat it like reality. If you want high-end fashion, you go to Paris, Milan, New York, or Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills. You do not go to a strip mall in Fresno.
If you are at the strip mall in Fresno and need access to a fashion mecca, you road trip it down to Beverly Hills--or over to Vegas, which is not a bad bet either.
If you're in a fantasy world and you need a magic sword, you go to the place that has the magic sword shop or the magic sword smith, if not both.
I like this method and try to do as much similarly. Sometimes I will do the random rolls for items as in the settlements but am willing to fudge if something else would make more sense.
One thing I want to work on is
-- on one hand, I don't want my players to assume there is a magic mart or that they can easily buy and SELL all their magic items easily, and I do follow the guidelines for GP limitations when building settlements.
-- on the other hand, I want to encourage players to let me know if there's items they'd like, and find other ways of getting those items besides a boring old shopping trip or having to assume 8 years of downtime just for them to craft all the stuff they want. I want it to be fun for them, but I also want it to be fun for me, and for the world to feel believable.
It's all stuff I still need to work on in practice.
Treat it like reality. If you want high-end fashion, you go to Paris, Milan, New York, or Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills. You do not go to a strip mall in Fresno.If you are at the strip mall in Fresno and need access to a fashion mecca, you road trip it down to Beverly Hills--or over to Vegas, which is not a bad bet either.
If you're in a fantasy world and you need a magic sword, you go to the place that has the magic sword shop or the magic sword smith, if not both.
I like this method and try to do as much similarly. Sometimes I will do the random rolls for items as in the settlements but am willing to fudge if something else would make more sense.
One thing I want to work on is
-- on one hand, I don't want my players to assume there is a magic mart or that they can easily buy and SELL all their magic items easily, and I do follow the guidelines for GP limitations when building settlements.
-- on the other hand, I want to encourage players to let me know if there's items they'd like, and find other ways of getting those items besides a boring old shopping trip or having to assume 8 years of downtime just for them to craft all the stuff they want. I want it to be fun for them, but I also want it to be fun for me, and for the world to feel believable.
It's all stuff I still need to work on in practice.
That's pretty much what I do too. This is a way to encourage the PCs to take magic item creation feats, so that they can make what they want, too. Of course, if they're pressed for time by the the impending arrival of Lord Kirtann-Rodd, Decorator of Worlds, then they have to salvage what they can from dungeons!
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I constantly hear this complaint about "magic marts" and comparisons to convenience stores or Walmart.
I've never viewed the availability of magic items in a town as being a franchise McMagicMart situation. I've always interpreted the local magic store being more like the local bakery or blacksmith. In one town the "magic store" might be run by an aging alchemist who makes a good living brewing potions and elixirs but who also trades in magical items that he stocks and sells from traveling merchants. In another town the "magic store" might be run by a local merchant who started selling jewelry and who has branched out into magical items as his business grew.
Another town might not have a central "magic store". There might be a local hedge witch making potions, while a highly skilled blacksmith can make "magic" weapons out of pure skill mastery, and there may not be any place in town where you can get wondrous items.
The fact that magic items are available in a town does not in any way mean that there's a big magically lit "neon" sign with a huge parking lot for people to come in and shop for magical items en masse. There are many, many ways for the GM to decide how magic items are available. Eccentric collectors who are always looking for a trade, wizened ex-adventurers who are selling off their treasures, clever merchants who know how to sell anything.... Do it how you like. Just because a +1 longsword is available in a town doesn't mean your PC has to walk into a brick and mortar and pull one off of a rack with a dozen more just like it. That's a GM game design choice that YOU are making, not something the game is requiring.
Does the core rules actually say magic shops? I bet no where does it say magic items are sold in shops. So you find a crafter or someone with the item who is willing to part with it, for a ton of cash.
*loaned out my core book, so I'm ready to be wrong.
No it doesn't say there is a single magic item shop in the settlement, but the RAW is that the items are there for purchase however you want to fluff it. Fluff it all you want, the end result is the same, effectively there is a "market" (in the general, non specific location definition) where you can get what you want within certain limitations with a fairly high probablity.
Go out and get it guys, don't craft or buy it.
If they absolutely want to buy something, let's roll for availability. Is high or low good for you pc?
I was going to stay out of this conversation entirely, because I've discovered that I'm a 'draconian bastard' of a GM, but my players really like it, so what can I do?
I go with several other posters in that not everything is available everywhere.
But for our group, that's not just magic items, that's ANY item. One of my players just e-mailed to ask me whether he'd be able to find a 50' silk rope in Sandpoint. I obviously answered in the affirmative, but my players like the 'realism' of being in a town where even such basic items aren't a given. In 'real' life, I live in a town of 20,000 in a major metropolitan area (S.F. Bay Area), yet our local gun shop doesn't have every gun manufactured anywhere in the world; it has a subset of the most popular guns for our area, and you can special order any guns that aren't in stock. There are many items on the 'basic goods' list that I would have to leave town to obtain.
So my Sandpoint weapons shop doesn't carry every weapon. It doesn't have extra earthbreakers for the barbarian, or scimitars for the paladin of Sarenrae, because they're not popular in Sandpoint. But it's a 4-5 day special-order to get such things from Magnimar, where anything up to a +2 weapon is (in my mind) absolutely commonplace.
And I apply common sense. A +1 longsword or crossbow? I can't imagine a weapons shop not carrying such "standard" fare. A wand of Cure Light Wounds? Absolutely no problem. But a +1 nodachi or a wand of Inflict Light Wounds? Not so much, though I do make up a percentage on the fly of the likelihood of such an item appearing (maybe Shalelu just took out a low-level evil cleric and sold off his stuff) and roll for it.
And I do roll up special items as per the book. I figure these are the rare and unusual things that make the circuits through the area, being sold on consignment and trying to find a wealthy buyer. (My favorite so far was the flying carpet that showed up in the Feathered Serpent for a month. The gnome SO wanted it, but didn't have the gold for it...)
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@NobodysHome: That something isn't available at all times is the 75% chance. The 'special order' you mentioned is essentially the same as showing up one day finding they don't have it (but could be available in the settlment) then showing up 3 days later, succeeding on the roll and it being available.
The game assumes they will be available. Just because this is true doesn't mean it should be a "Ye Olde Magic Shop" it could be the weapons are from the town Smith, the Potions from the High Priest of the temple, and the Scrolls from the local hedge Wizard.
I think it is best to create different NPC Selling magic Items, Spellbooks etc. The PC might build a bond with some of them, en might ask these NPC to go and search for items they think they need.
My Old Time Favored is the Church of Abbadar, who always sells or makes Magical Weapons and ARms, but you wiull need to pay your taxes, and tithing the church of abbadar 1/10 of all you possesions is maybe a bit steep, but they can get and make almost any weapon or armor you need.
Then there is always a black market for magic, this means pc can sometimes sell evil items there (The Church of Abbadar might just confiscate the items and fine you for having evil items)and also get ther hands on things better not seen in public, human bane items, talismans of pure evil etc.
The black market can also get most items, althought these might come with problems of the previous owners.
Then there is the wizards guild, you can order items here, but it might take time, for the wizards are busy, burocratic, and need te be confinced that making items is in the good of the guild, they do have a lot of items for sale that seems unsellable to most other people, such as the Purple worm bane dagger, Azimbar's wand of duegar wooing, or the vorpal ring.
The game assumes they will be available. Just because this is true doesn't mean it should be a "Ye Olde Magic Shop" it could be the weapons are from the town Smith, the Potions from the High Priest of the temple, and the Scrolls from the local hedge Wizard.
There is a difference between the availablity and how it is available. That difference is fluff and can be changed as needed or desired. The end result is the same. Whether you fluff it as a single shop or multiple places to get items, it doesn't matter under the RAW assumption.
Some people just don't like that the players can have access to items, period. They want to control what is available and make every magic item an epic quest (or PITA depending on your point of view). Depending on the setting, maybe it makes sense, but RAW the game we're discussing here is based on the fact they are rather easily accessible. Diverging from that means you are in fact no longer playing the game in the book.
Past a certain point, shoppers start gaining negative levels, or their pc levels are replaced with commoner levels.
For the sake of ease I assume items of a certain price are available depending on the size of the settlement. If the item is something really particular like a +2 keen flaming .....sword then I might make the player roll a gather information check. Actually I would roll secretly for them.
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Settlement stat blocks, magic items in particular confuse me a little bit.
It lists an amount of items, like 3d4 minor items or something. So lets say you do the rolls, and you come up with items that are under the base value. Let's say the base value is 8k, and you roll up a wand that costs 750. Isn't that wand most likely available anyway? (75% chance)
If so, why does it go on the list of available items? Does one have to pay to have items created that aren't on the list? If that's the case, then what does it mean that there is a 75% chance to find a magic item.
Aside from all of this, how do you handle shopping and magic items in your games? I dont like the idea of a magic supermarket that has whatever someone wants, but it seems like that is what exists as far as under the base value goes.
an other way to understand it is that those rolled items are 100% available (for exemple, there is someone whose job is to craft those stuff)
Ok so we discussed a lot about buying stuffs. But what about selling them ?
I mean after a while you get tons of +1 longsword, masterwork u name it, +2 daggers and it gets really tough.
OK who would like to have 5 or 6 +1 longswords ?
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Ok so we discussed a lot about buying stuffs. But what about selling them ?
I mean after a while you get tons of +1 longsword, masterwork u name it, +2 daggers and it gets really tough.
OK who would like to have 5 or 6 +1 longswords ?
Everyone, it's a violent setting.
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Ok so we discussed a lot about buying stuffs. But what about selling them ?
I mean after a while you get tons of +1 longsword, masterwork u name it, +2 daggers and it gets really tough.
OK who would like to have 5 or 6 +1 longswords ?
Anyone with a group of henchmen or city guards or temple guards or.....
I can not imagine a world of magic where you could nto find someone who woudl want the item. For me the real question is value. If there are so many +1 longswords that you have a hard time finding a buyer, then the value will drop as well. No buyers = no demand = too high of a supply.
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Small towns view magic with suspicion. If the players develop a decent reputation (by helping locals) then maybe the local apothecary will sell them some potions and oils. Magic items? There might be a few around, but nobody wants to sell things to a bunch of people who turn out to be bandits/wandering murderhobos. (Potions and wands available 50% in limited quantities. Magic items rare and expensive).
Big towns, there's more anonymity, and more coming-and-going. Coin can be more valuable than reputation, if there's plenty of it. Adventurers come and go too, which means there may be more magic items available for sale. Still, there are local laws prohibiting sale of magic items to "individuals of ill repute", so it helps to have a good reputation, or some highly-placed individual speaking for you. (Most potions and wands 75% chance, most low-end "lightly enchanted" weapons available in limited quantities, specific items by quest only).
Cities are hubs of commerce. Magic is highly institutionalized (trusted in the right circles). There are officials and guild-masters who monitor who is interested in magic items, so criminals will have a difficult time, as will those who sell to them (players included). (Most potions and wands 100%, low-end weapons 100%, lower-percentage for specialized items, and in limited quantities [roll for that week's supply on the table] specific items of wonder like "Void Dust" are by quest only. High-end weapons with specialized enchantments can be made for the right price [give the players a hoop or two to jump through].)
I try to make it fun; give them a percentage chance to roll on an item being available, no matter where they are.
I want magic items to have that sense of value and wonder they had in earlier editions. As such, there are no "magic marts", although some guilds in some cities, and Katapesh might come close. Still, it's simply impossible that something like a "Ring of the Djinn" or a "Ring of Continuation" is going to by lying around for sale somewhere.
In my games:
At low levels, I usually roleplay the search for, the haggling, and the purchasing of magic items from shops. It's fun. Up to a certain point. As the level increases, and the PC's ability to travel great distances developes, I tend to "fast-forward" the buying/selling of magic items. I just assume that we COULD roleplay an entire evening of teleporting from city to city and eventually finding what they want, or just skip all that, buy and sell what you want so we can get back to the exciting stuff (like the AP).
Ultradan
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No magic item shops, some possibility of buying them in certain places. Potions in troubled areas. Easy to get them off dead adventurers, monsters, bosses, hidden places.
More and more going back to a 2nd ed way of doing things. Yes ironic I know. Pushing the big six, fill all your slots is one of the worse sides of 3-PF.
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Okay seriously, I think this assumption that characters won't be able to get by without all there magic toys is a bunch of BS, and I don't understand why the designers try to tell us it is necessary.
How many threads have you ever seen where a dm is complaining about how underpowered their PCs are and how if it weren't for all their magic items they would be getting thrashed? I've seen ZERO. I think that the "need" for magic items to keep the game balanced is a joke. It is the opposite really. If characters didn't have magic items (or at least much fewer magic items) the game would IMO be far more balanced- especially at higher levels.
Consequently, I don't normally make magic items available for purchase (except for healing magic like wands of cure light wounds and some minor one shot items like potions and scrolls). Characters earn their magic the old fashioned way- by adventuring.
Players have tons of ways to control the development of their characters through class, spells, feats etc... I don't think they don't need to have complete control of which items they get as well. That's not to say I won't try to work in requests. For instance, I have a fighter that uses a great sword, and I plan to make sure he gets a chance to acquire a cool magic greatsword in the near future, but he isn't going to be walking down to Magicmart and buying one.
I also don't hand out as much treasure, so the PCs don't have tons of money to buy magic items with. When I do give out magic items I try to give them items I know they'll want to use and keep so they don't feel the desire to sell it off. Furthermore, many of my magic items "unlock" as the PCs level up, so a +1 longsword might gain some other power a couple of levels later, and then become a +2 sword a little after that etc...
I find reducing the amount of magic items the characters have makes the game easier to DM because the CR system (which is a total joke) starts to come a little bit closer to being functional.
To be honest I don't really understand why it's become an assumption that you can just buy magic items. I would guess it must be an influence from video game culture.
Actually the "Ye Olde Magic Shoppe" is a basic assumption of the Core Rules. When a character goes to look for an item there, as long as it is within the gp limit of the settlement size, three quarters of the time it is there.
When dealing with a "little to no magic setting" there may be no items for sale BUT you as the GM should make appropriate steps to make up for that choice.
It's covered on page 460 of the core book (if you decide to stop being lazy and check up on it ;)
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Now I know some of you might take this 'personally' but it isn't meant as an attack.
ALOT of people who complain about access to magic items at PCs will also complain about DMing those games. Maybe I've been lucky or many of the people who I've gamed with were "skilled" but quite honestly... Hardly any of them have ever had an issue with DMing a group and providing a challenging campaign or had issue with enjoying the game with PCs having access to magic items regularly. I've only once had a DM say at the end of the night that the game hinged on a magic item (dust of sneezing/choking my character carried around for about 4 levels).
As a friendly piece of advice from a fellow gamer, if you find the game that hard to deal with, or that magic items being available requires that you need to put that much more work into running the game... You and your group may be better served by you being on the other side of the screen. If the PCs having a handful of modifiers and items that provide a bonus skew your encounters that much, you might be trying to micromanage too much, especially if the ones and twos are hindering your enjoyment of the game.
As for why the assumption is there? My guess is because people like "toys," they like to spend the treasure on things they want, not what you decide to "grant" them. It's an extra layer of personalization and it is nice to have a level of control over your character, as it is your character not the DMs. Sadly despite the DM doesn't always "know best" for another players enjoyment.
Okay seriously, I think this assumption that characters won't be able to get by without all there magic toys is a bunch of BS, and I don't understand why the designers try to tell us it is necessary.
How many threads have you ever seen where a dm is complaining about how underpowered their PCs are and how if it weren't for all their magic items they would be getting thrashed? I've seen ZERO. I think that the "need" for magic items to keep the game balanced is a joke. It is the opposite really. If characters didn't have magic items (or at least much fewer magic items) the game would IMO be far more balanced- especially at higher levels.
Consequently, I don't normally make magic items available for purchase (except for healing magic like wands of cure light wounds and some minor one shot items like potions and scrolls). Characters earn their magic the old fashioned way- by adventuring.
Players have tons of ways to control the development of their characters through class, spells, feats etc... I don't think they don't need to have complete control of which items they get as well. That's not to say I won't try to work in requests. For instance, I have a fighter that uses a great sword, and I plan to make sure he gets a chance to acquire a cool magic greatsword in the near future, but he isn't going to be walking down to Magicmart and buying one.
I also don't hand out as much treasure, so the PCs don't have tons of money to buy magic items with. When I do give out magic items I try to give them items I know they'll want to use and keep so they don't feel the desire to sell it off. Furthermore, many of my magic items "unlock" as the PCs level up, so a +1 longsword might gain some other power a couple of levels later, and then become a +2 sword a little after that etc...
I find reducing the amount of magic items the characters have makes the game easier to DM because the CR system (which is a total joke) starts to come a little bit closer to being functional.
To be honest I don't really understand...
Here here, this smurf agrees.
Now I know some of you might take this 'personally' but it isn't meant as an attack.
ALOT of people who complain about access to magic items at PCs will also complain about DMing those games. Maybe I've been lucky or many of the people who I've gamed with were "skilled" but quite honestly... Hardly any of them have ever had an issue with DMing a group and providing a challenging campaign or had issue with enjoying the game with PCs having access to magic items regularly. I've only once had a DM say at the end of the night that the game hinged on a magic item (dust of sneezing/choking my character carried around for about 4 levels).
As a friendly piece of advice from a fellow gamer, if you find the game that hard to deal with, or that magic items being available requires that you need to put that much more work into running the game... You and your group may be better served by you being on the other side of the screen. If the PCs having a handful of modifiers and items that provide a bonus skew your encounters that much, you might be trying to micromanage too much, especially if the ones and twos are hindering your enjoyment of the game.
As for why the assumption is there? My guess is because people like "toys," they like to spend the treasure on things they want, not what you decide to "grant" them. It's an extra layer of personalization and it is nice to have a level of control over your character, as it is your character not the DMs. Sadly despite the DM doesn't always "know best" for another players enjoyment.
Personalisation and customisation options has been sold pretty hard in a number of console and pc games, especially in online gaming. I'll take this this, this and this, and I'll be fantastic.
Your char should be great and fun without your magic items. :{
In honour of low magic gaming, I've taken a disenchanter as my pic. Nishruus and rust monsters are also great fun.
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Personalisation and customisation options has been sold pretty hard in a number of console and pc games, especially in online gaming. I'll take this this, this and this, and I'll be fantastic.
Your char should be great and fun without your magic items. :{
Tell that to the fighter who specs into a weapon and then for no other reason than the DM doesn't like the weapon or doesn't understand the attraction, never sees a magical one.
Tell that to the wizard who never sees a scroll of any spell they would like to get.
Tell that to any magus who had to sac attributes to not be completely useless and would like to get a pearl of power or ring of wizardry.
They are all "great fun" without magic items, but they could be dramatically MORE fun with them.
People like toys, male, female, doesn't matter. New shiny stuff is good.
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People like toys, male, female, doesn't matter. New shiny stuff is good.
Yes, magical items are fun (they always have been). But there are those of us that still like the idea of magic items being unique and special (this being especially true for a lot of us that have the majority of our gaming backgrounds come from editions earlier than 3rd)...
I however, understand that YMMV and all of that, but I also know that while in a minority, I know that I am not alone in this preference...
Low magic isn't annoy the players with things they probably should have. If a fighter can never get a magic version of their favourite weapon, that is poor dming. If a wizard can never get new cool spells, that is poor dming.
By low magic, I am also meaning more small situational items, magic with flavour and uses other than combat, rather than just feeding the six items into the dirty gaping slots of the wanton. Mmmmmm
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Okay seriously, I think this assumption that characters won't be able to get by without all there magic toys is a bunch of BS, and I don't understand why the designers try to tell us it is necessary.
The designers have never said all of them were neccessary, but the game does assume higher stats at higher levels. That does not mean that you must have the best stat boosting item the game provides just to survive.
How many threads have you ever seen where a dm is complaining about how underpowered their PCs are and how if it weren't for all their magic items they would be getting thrashed? I've seen ZERO. I think that the "need" for magic items to keep the game balanced is a joke. It is the opposite really. If characters didn't have magic items (or at least much fewer magic items) the game would IMO be far more balanced- especially at higher levels.
Why would a GM make that complaint? If the players are being thrashed he can just make the encounter easier.
Consequently, I don't normally make magic items available for purchase (except for healing magic like wands of cure light wounds and some minor one shot items like potions and scrolls). Characters earn their magic the old fashioned way- by adventuring.Players have tons of ways to control the development of their characters through class, spells, feats etc... I don't think they don't need to have complete control of which items they get as well. That's not to say I won't try to work in requests. For instance, I have a fighter that uses a great sword, and I plan to make sure he gets a chance to acquire a cool magic greatsword in the near future, but he isn't going to be walking down to Magicmart and buying one.
I don't think anyone gets every magic item they want. Even in games where the GM is pretty lax is it not likely to happen
I also don't hand out as much treasure, so the PCs don't have tons of money to buy magic items with. When I do give out magic items I try to give them items I know they'll want to use and keep so they don't feel the desire to sell it off. Furthermore, many of my magic items "unlock" as the PCs level up, so a +1 longsword might gain some other power a couple of levels later, and then become a +2 sword a little after that etc...
Same effect, different method..
To be honest I don't really understand why it's become an assumption that you can just buy magic items. I would guess it must be an influence from video game culture.
The CRB/DMG 3.5 is actually the answer since most items are assumed to available depending on city size. Many players also GM so they know what the game expects of them. People like to blame video games for a lot of things, but they are not the culprit.
To be honest I don't really understand...
In my low magic games, there was a high magic fellow, he loved all the items, filling the slots, and once claimed a magic item "was essential to his character concept". Funny stuff, but when he was dumped into a low magic frontier game, set in Isger, with no magic item shops. He eventually adapted and started doing more rp. I could sense some inner conflict though, because he still wanted to hoard items, but there was so much to do, and they were on the clock, that he was kept busy.
Then he tried to kill the rest of the party, his coup failed.
People like toys, male, female, doesn't matter.
Hear, hear!
Wait...what are we talking about?
On the other hand, just having the players buy all their toys with the cash they gain is kind of like the DM handing out giftcards or cash for christmas instead of presents. Sometimes it's nice to get an actual gift. Some players enjoy a surprise. That technique doesn't work so good if you don't know your players and don't give them things they'll like.
I find my group enjoys the surprise and likes finding and earning magic items through adventuring. They've never wanted to be able to go to town and just buy magic items, but that's the way they roll, and obviously different players have different tastes. I personally don't really like the assumption that magic items can be easily available for purchase because for me it takes the wonder and mystery out of them and distills them down to being just another player resource. So I find it disappointing that this has become the default assumption. Fortunately, it has no impact on my gaming since my players are totally cool with not following that assumption.
Now I know some of you might take this 'personally' but it isn't meant as an attack.
ALOT of people who complain about access to magic items at PCs will also complain about DMing those games. Maybe I've been lucky or many of the people who I've gamed with were "skilled" but quite honestly... Hardly any of them have ever had an issue with DMing a group and providing a challenging campaign or had issue with enjoying the game with PCs having access to magic items regularly. I've only once had a DM say at the end of the night that the game hinged on a magic item (dust of sneezing/choking my character carried around for about 4 levels).
As a friendly piece of advice from a fellow gamer, if you find the game that hard to deal with, or that magic items being available requires that you need to put that much more work into running the game... You and your group may be better served by you being on the other side of the screen. If the PCs having a handful of modifiers and items that provide a bonus skew your encounters that much, you might be trying to micromanage too much, especially if the ones and twos are hindering your enjoyment of the game.
As for why the assumption is there? My guess is because people like "toys," they like to spend the treasure on things they want, not what you decide to "grant" them. It's an extra layer of personalization and it is nice to have a level of control over your character, as it is your character not the DMs. Sadly despite the DM doesn't always "know best" for another players enjoyment.
In my low magic games, there was a high magic fellow, he loved all the items, filling the slots, and once claimed a magic item "was essential to his character concept". Funny stuff, but when he was dumped into a low magic frontier game, set in Isger, with no magic item shops. He eventually adapted and started doing more rp. I could sense some inner conflict though, because he still wanted to hoard items, but there was so much to do, and they were on the clock, that he was kept busy.
Then he tried to kill the rest of the party, his coup failed.
For magic items?
I hope you booted him from the table.