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If Monks have trouble hitting...


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Everyone always making the assumption that you have to have an even-numbered ability score at level 1... ;)

Assume Human, 20pt build:
Str - 17 (15 +Human)
Dex - 14
Con - 13
Int - 10
Wis - 15
Cha - 8

Level points: +2 Str, +1 Con, +2 Wis
+6 Belt of Perfection
+6 Headband of Wisdom (If you hate having a 10 Int, double up here)
+5 Manual of Strength
+5 Tome of Wisdom
Stats become:
Str - 30
Dex - 20
Con - 20 (For a highly defensive class with evasion, like the Monk, a 20 in Dex/Con is fine. No need to climb higher.)
Int - 16 (Headband is cheaper than another Tome, and gets a higher bonus.)
Wis - 28
Cha - 8 (You could buy a tome, but the difference between -1 and +0 isn't worth 55,000gp to me.)

Add the rest of the "must-have" gear:
Monk's Robe - 13,000
+5 Amulet of Mighty Fists - 125,000
+5 Ring of Protection - 50,000
+5 Cloak of Resistance - 25,000
+8 Bracers of Armor - 64,000
+6 Belt of Physical Perfection - 144,000
+6 Headband of Mental Prowess - 90,000
+5 Manual of Str - 137,500
+5 Tome of Wis - 137,500
Dusty Rose Prism - 5,000
Pale Green Prism - 30,000

Total spent is 821,000, leaving 59,000 to play with.

Monk's AC is sitting pretty at 44 before feats.
Flurry Attacks, before feats, are made at +34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19
Base Damage Unarmed is 4d8+15/2d12+15 (Monk's Robe - Not sure where 2d10 goes, honestly, considering 2d8 should have become 4d6, not 2d10.)

If you allow Wis to hit and assume Weapon Focus, you're starting a flurry chain at +44 - Equal or better than an equivalent Fighter at these high levels, and hardly noticeable at those low levels.

(If you can't stomach level 20 and must have level 18, drop the Tome/Manual to +4s and pull the level 20 point adjustment out of Con. Damage also returns to 2d10 so no worries about what it bumps up to until level 19. You also net back 55,000gp.)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Atarlost wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Stat consolidation is not the answer. Fixing the equipment problem is the answer. Since Paizo has refused to even consider this the next best answer is weapon training.
No, for a class whose main advantage is they are meant to be less equipment dependent, increasing the dependency is not really a fix. A lot of people don't like the Christmas Tree effect, adding to it doesn't help.
You can't attack the Christmas Tree Effect on a single class.

Who's attacking it? I am saying don't exacerbate it.

Atarlost wrote:

You're screwing over simulationist tables and fair wealth distribution tables. Suddenly your four person party is splitting the wealth 3.5 ways because the monk doesn't need to budget for enhancement to weapons or armor. Either that or the monk's budget lets the party have far more consumables than normal.

The monk needs to be on the same expense curve as other classes. Not a higher curve as now nor a lower curve as you advocate. The same curve. Anything else is fighting against the basic game paradigm rather than working with it.

I'm sorry, I thought I said "don't increase equipment dependency" and you seem to have heard something completely different, and I am still trying to work out what it is.

The monk is already more equipment dependent in many ways because they have fewer effective choices available. I merely do not feel that replacing one option for equipment with another option is actually going to fix anything. Monks already need the more expensive protective items - rings of protection, bracers of armour - and are restricted in some choices.

What I do advocate as a fix for the monk is an enhancement bonus to hit (only, not to damage) from ki-strike. This doesn't replace the old AoMF, but it does keep the monk up in the hitting stakes a little better. I don't think it breaks the game's WBL in any way, it may change the kind of AoMF the monk spends his money on, but he still spends it.

If an automatic magic weapon was going to break WBL then the bladebound magus wouldn't be a viable archetype.

Atarlost wrote:
If the CTE is a problem it needs to be attacked at the deepest level, rewriting either the bestiaries or table 3-1, changing the base save progressions, severely culling the magic item lists, and abolishing the concept of WBL. This is new edition territory, not quick monk fix or even monk overhaul territory.

Oh I agree with this - as I said, I merely point out that increasing the CTE is not necessarily a good thing.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
master arminas wrote:
{stuff}

Just because the monk isn't the way YOU would make one doesn't make it illegal. You also haven't answered what will occur if you have higher point buy or good rolls on stats other than to have the DM handwave it. That's not good enough. Good games design takes into account all possibilities, not just the ones you want to address, and they try to reduce the burden on the DM, not increase it. That's how broken combos come about.

Maybe my monk is down on HP, but up on AC, and maybe he is up on damage by taking an agile AoMF - he has enough bonus to hit now to deal with this. His +13 Dex bonus makes that a very nice trade-off.


When you make suggestions it is always best to make them playstyle neutral. "My group does .." is not a good defense when designing a class for everyone.

As for the monk they could just make gloves that only affect punches.* That way the AoMF is still available for those that want to attack with the entire body. The fact that people almost never attack with their entire body is part of the reason the AoMF is overpriced anyway. This would also help them overcome DR, if they added a line saying that the monk's unarmed strikes/attacks actually received the enhancement, which the AoMF does not.

*This would not stop monks from making unarmed strikes with the hands full, but it would stop them from getting the bonuses from the gloves if they don't use punches.

PS:I would also make it clear that the gloves are not occupying the glove/hand slot. That way the monk does not have to give up another item just to do his job.

PS2:Of course the monk is still MAD. Allowing him to use wisdom for attack bonus may work. Either that or give him a bonus to attack every few levels. From that you run the numbers, and adjust accordingly.


A monk dependent on an AMF is exactly as dependent on equipment for offense as a fighter with a falchion.

Improving the AMF to have the same price as one or two (probably one since even though it enhances two weapons weapons are slotless and should therefore cost twice as much as the same bonus somewhere else) is not making the monk more gear dependent, it's making them as gear dependent as everyone else. They're just using an amulet for their enhancement bonuses instead of a sharp piece of metal in their hand. It's close enough to the same item, just in a different slot.


Dabbler wrote:
master arminas wrote:
{stuff}

Just because the monk isn't the way YOU would make one doesn't make it illegal. You also haven't answered what will occur if you have higher point buy or good rolls on stats other than to have the DM handwave it. That's not good enough. Good games design takes into account all possibilities, not just the ones you want to address, and they try to reduce the burden on the DM, not increase it. That's how broken combos come about.

Maybe my monk is down on HP, but up on AC, and maybe he is up on damage by taking an agile AoMF - he has enough bonus to hit now to deal with this. His +13 Dex bonus makes that a very nice trade-off.

Did I say it was illegal?

Agile is a nice property, but it is one unique to Golarian (however that is spelled). It isn't in UE, and until recently I had never heard of it. Or the guided weapon, for that matter.

Should every class be designed as if the characters have six eighteens (pre-racial) right out of the box? Come on, man . . . I know you are not arguing that!

Exceptions always exist, but the game itself should deal with normal average characters; not tweaked out and min-maxed to the limit. And yes, I am saying that it IS the DM's job to squash that stuff flat before it becomes a problem.

That is why we have DMs, to make judgement calls. If you want to have rules you cannot get around, play a video game without the cheat codes. If you want to play a role-playing game, then the DM needs to man up and set the rules of his table.

MA


wraithstrike wrote:

When you make suggestions it is always best to make them playstyle neutral. "My group does .." is not a good defense when designing a class for everyone.

As for the monk they could just make gloves that only affect punches.* That way the AoMF is still available for those that want to attack with the entire body. The fact that people almost never attack with their entire body is part of the reason the AoMF is overpriced anyway. This would also help them overcome DR, if they added a line saying that the monk's unarmed strikes/attacks actually received the enhancement, which the AoMF does not.

*This would not stop monks from making unarmed strikes with the hands full, but it would stop them from getting the bonuses from the gloves if they don't use punches.

PS:I would also make it clear that the gloves are not occupying the glove/hand slot. That way the monk does not have to give up another item just to do his job.

PS2:Of course the monk is still MAD. Allowing him to use wisdom for attack bonus may work. Either that or give him a bonus to attack every few levels. From that you run the numbers, and adjust accordingly.

Not sure I fully agree, but certainly a bonus, starting at say 3rd level and increasing by 1 every three levels thereafter (for a +6 on attack rolls at 18th level) instead of Wisdom to hit would be just as good. As long as it stacked with enhancement bonuses, that is.

Now, for the item, I would price it at 3,000 gp x the bonus squared (1.5 times the cost of a single weapon) and make it take up the gloves slot, but not restrict it simply to punches. But the designers don't want an item fix, and they don't want to obsolete the bloody amulet. Hence the piece of drek known as bodywraps of mighty striking in UE.

MA

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I still think a slight increase to the ki pool coupled with a ki ability that boosts the monks to-hit would be both a simple and effective band-aid, and a fix that might actually see the light of day since it wouldn't drastically change or invalidate any existing material. My two cents though, your opinion may vary.


Atarlost wrote:

A monk dependent on an AMF is exactly as dependent on equipment for offense as a fighter with a falchion.

Improving the AMF to have the same price as one or two (probably one since even though it enhances two weapons weapons are slotless and should therefore cost twice as much as the same bonus somewhere else) is not making the monk more gear dependent, it's making them as gear dependent as everyone else. They're just using an amulet for their enhancement bonuses instead of a sharp piece of metal in their hand. It's close enough to the same item, just in a different slot.

Weapons don't take up slots. That is one issue with the AoMF, along with its heavy price tag. It is not badly priced for monsters with multiple natural attacks, but it sucks for monks.


master arminas wrote:


Not sure I fully agree, but certainly a bonus, starting at say 3rd level and increasing by 1 every three levels thereafter (for a +6 on attack rolls at 18th level) instead of Wisdom to hit would be just as good. As long as it stacked with enhancement bonuses, that is.

Now, for the item, I would price it at 3,000 gp x the bonus squared (1.5 times the cost of a single weapon) and make it take up the gloves slot, but not restrict it simply to punches. But the designers don't want an item fix, and they don't want to obsolete the bloody amulet. Hence the piece of drek known as bodywraps of mighty striking in UE.

MA

That is why I suggested a hands only enhancement. I guess they feel like if the item can be used with any body part the price is justified. By reducing what the item can be used with the lower price would be more likely to be accepted. Of course a hands only enhancement kills the flavor of kicking, elbows, and so on....

Maybe just creating an alternate monk is the best way to go, instead of a fix(errata to current monk).

It keeps the core monk around for those that want it, and for those that don't the new version is available.


OKay after agreeing with some of you that we need monks to have something similar to the arcane pool, I decided to simply adapt the text of the Arcane pool for a monk:

Quote:

Inner Strength (Su)

A monk can expend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to grant himself a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks for 1 minute. At 7th level and every three levels beyond 7th, the user gains another +1 unarmed enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 16th level. These bonuses can be added to the existing enchancement bonuses to unarmed attacks, stacking with existing enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.

At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: agile, defending, dueling, ghost touch, and menacing.

Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any unarmed enchantment bonus the user already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the user doesn't have an unarmed enchantment bonus, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the ki pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the monk uses this ability.

I changed some of the abilities to be added to the monk, since most of those added with the arcane pool would diminish the value of other feats such as elemental fist or specific style feat chains. Also, since the monk gets his Ki later, it scales at +1 at 4th level, then +2 at 7th, and so on. Now it "finishes" a level earlier than the Magus' ability but since they don't get Ki till level 4, that's a trade off imo.

Now obviously this would be a new class feature, since it scales with level. It would need some adapting were it a feat, likely adding a Ki prerequisite, as well as clarifying that only classes with the Ki Pool class feature count for determining the effect of the feat.

What do you think?


Darth Grall wrote:

OKay after agreeing with some of you that we need monks to have something similar to the arcane pool, I decided to simply adapt the text of the Arcane pool for a monk:

Quote:

Inner Strength (Su)

A monk can expend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to grant himself a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks for 1 minute. At 7th level and every three levels beyond 7th, the user gains another +1 unarmed enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 16th level. These bonuses can be added to the existing enchancement bonuses to unarmed attacks, stacking with existing enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.

At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: agile, defending, dueling, ghost touch, and menacing.

Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any unarmed enchantment bonus the user already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the user doesn't have an unarmed enchantment bonus, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the ki pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the monk uses this ability.

I changed some of the abilities to be added to the monk, since most of those added with the arcane pool would diminish the value of other feats such as elemental fist or specific style feat chains. Also, since the monk gets his Ki later, it scales at +1 at 4th level, then +2 at 7th, and so on. Now it "finishes" a level earlier than the Magus' ability but since they don't get Ki till level 4, that's a trade off imo.

Now obviously this would be a new class feature, since it scales with level. It would need some adapting were it a feat, likely adding a Ki prerequisite, as well as clarifying that only classes with the Ki Pool class feature count for determining the effect of the feat.
...

Maybe allow it to apply to monk weapons as well.


I would also add that the enhancement bonus applies to any maneuvers that the monk makes unarmed, including bull rushes and grapples. Plus I would axiomatic, keen (with the provision that it can be applied to a monk's unarmed strikes as if those unarmed strikes were slashing weapons), merciful, mighty cleaving, and wounding.

Otherwise, it looks good.

MA


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gignere wrote:
Maybe allow it to apply to monk weapons as well.

I don't really want to add it to weapons, cause while monk weapons generally suck, they are much easier to enchant through traditional means than a monk's unarmed attacks, hence the need to enhance them through the use of such an ability.

master arminas wrote:

I would also add that the enhancement bonus applies to any maneuvers that the monk makes unarmed, including bull rushes and grapples. Plus I would axiomatic, keen (with the provision that it can be applied to a monk's unarmed strikes as if those unarmed strikes were slashing weapons), merciful, mighty cleaving, and wounding.

Otherwise, it looks good.

MA

I concur on the enhancment bonus should extend to CMB.

I disagree/agree with some of the added effects:

-Giving it Axiomatic would have poor synergy with the existing monk's Ki pool, since it get's lawful weapons at level 16. Granted that's a long wait, so I could bend on this.
-Keen is a no go for me, since without the right feat(snake/boar I think) the fists don't do the right damage. And if you're going that route, there is a feat for that already in the core.
-Merciful I can see, since monks already are one of the few classes that can deal non-lethal damage without penalty out of the box, this would be a good one.
-Mighty Cleave, I'm mixed. On one hand I could see this playing off as a roundhouse kick or the like, but on the other hand who's to say that's not already part of the flurry attack sequence? I'm leaning towards though.
-Wounding, I really don't agree with this since giving it bleed damage would really take away from the value of boar/tiger style feats(or whichever ones give bleed dmg).


Darth Grall wrote:
Gignere wrote:
Maybe allow it to apply to monk weapons as well.

I don't really want to add it to weapons, cause while monk weapons generally suck, they are much easier to enchant through traditional means than a monk's unarmed attacks, hence the need to enhance them through the use of such an ability.

master arminas wrote:

I would also add that the enhancement bonus applies to any maneuvers that the monk makes unarmed, including bull rushes and grapples. Plus I would axiomatic, keen (with the provision that it can be applied to a monk's unarmed strikes as if those unarmed strikes were slashing weapons), merciful, mighty cleaving, and wounding.

Otherwise, it looks good.

MA

I concur on the enhancment bonus should extend to CMB.

I disagree/agree with some of the added effects:

-Giving it Axiomatic would have poor synergy with the existing monk's Ki pool, since it get's lawful weapons at level 16. Granted that's a long wait, so I could bend on this.
-Keen is a no go for me, since without the right feat(snake/boar I think) the fists don't do the right damage. And if you're going that route, there is a feat for that already in the core.
-Merciful I can see, since monks already are one of the few classes that can deal non-lethal damage without penalty out of the box, this would be a good one.
-Mighty Cleave, I'm mixed. On one hand I could see this playing off as a roundhouse kick or the like, but on the other hand who's to say that's not already part of the flurry attack sequence? I'm leaning towards though.
-Wounding, I really don't agree with this since giving it bleed damage would really take away from the value of boar/tiger style feats(or whichever ones give bleed dmg).

On the bleed for wounding, you don't have to bleed externally, you know. Internal bleeding, resulting from blunt force trauma, has killed many, many people throughout history. Just something to think about.

MA


master arminas wrote:

On the bleed for wounding, you don't have to bleed externally, you know. Internal bleeding, resulting from blunt force trauma, has killed many, many people throughout history. Just something to think about.

MA

True, but regardless of the flavor or nature of the bleed, it's the fact that you'd be mostly invalidating Boar Style if you allowed them to get a free point of bleed on every hit like that.

Granted not every feat or archtype can be taken into account with these kinds of fixes, but we have to try since this is a proposed fix for core monks.


Darth Grall wrote:
master arminas wrote:

On the bleed for wounding, you don't have to bleed externally, you know. Internal bleeding, resulting from blunt force trauma, has killed many, many people throughout history. Just something to think about.

MA

True, but regardless of the flavor or nature of the bleed, it's the fact that you'd be mostly invalidating Boar Style if you allowed them to get a free point of bleed on every hit like that.

Granted not every feat or archtype can be taken into account with these kinds of fixes, but we have to try since this is a proposed fix for core monks.

It doesn't invalidate it; boar style causes a LOT more bleed when it works. And the monk would have to expend ki to get wounding on his unarmed strikes . . . and wounding is a +2 bonus. He could get it at 10th level (or at 7th if he has a +1 AoMF), at the expense of any other ability or enhancement bonuses.

MA

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Axolotl wrote:
I have hope that the Monk fix will be awesome, because it won't be equipment-dependent. There is a whiff of Vow of Poverty around all monks--is that something I remember from 1e, like, they didn't have much starting g.p.?--and if they are less gear-dependent, which appears to be the flavor Paizo prefers, then...well, here's hoping. Less gear-dependent, and good at something.
Axolotl wrote:


Indeed, a monk's quest in life shouldn't be for that elusive Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists--it's a quest for inner peace, right? Monks are strange enough to potentially merit being that one class that would do well with powers that are gear-independent. The abilities of unarmed strike at higher levels hint at that anyhow.

I had this idea that it would be cool if a monk could enhance their unarmed strike as befits the situation by drawing from their ki pool, in the way that a Magus uses their arcane pool. This further obviates the need for gear and would turn Unarmed Strike into "Swiss Army Knife Strike".

All of my want, right there. Self-enhancement has become my holy grail for monks at this point.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Darth Grall wrote:
Gignere wrote:
Maybe allow it to apply to monk weapons as well.
I don't really want to add it to weapons, cause while monk weapons generally suck, they are much easier to enchant through traditional means than a monk's unarmed attacks, hence the need to enhance them through the use of such an ability.

Actually, I think it would work through ki-focus weapons, which is fine by me. I like the idea, but truly the monk has a lot of demands on his ki and this adds more. I'd prefer a flat bonus thanks to ki-strike without using this - my rule of thumb: if you would use it all the time, make it permanent.

master arminas wrote:
I would also add that the enhancement bonus applies to any maneuvers that the monk makes unarmed, including bull rushes and grapples. Plus I would axiomatic, keen (with the provision that it can be applied to a monk's unarmed strikes as if those unarmed strikes were slashing weapons), merciful, mighty cleaving, and wounding.

I wouldn't add properties, you can get the AoMF for those - remember that the devs do not want to obsolete it, and this could be viewed as doing that.


Dabbler wrote:
Actually, I think it would work through ki-focus weapons, which is fine by me. I like the idea, but truly the monk has a lot of demands on his ki and this adds more. I'd prefer a flat bonus thanks to ki-strike without using this - my rule of thumb: if you would use it all the time, make it permanent.

I'll give you the Ki Focus'd thing, hadn't seen that yet. Is that from UE? Regardless, yeah.

Reason why I don't want to make it permanent is that it fits more the way the monk uses Ki and helps diferentiate the monk from full BABers.

Also, the only time I've seen the extra Ki feat taken by a PC was for a Ninja who took Forgotten Trick, and I think placing a slight, but more subtle demand on Ki will make this a more often picked choice, the same way the extra arcane pool for magus is picked. I think that it's key that by making this a per minute ability, for 1 Ki, it's actually workable.

Quote:
I wouldn't add properties, you can get the AoMF for those - remember that the devs do not want to obsolete it, and this could be viewed as doing that.

But in the two cases of similar abilities, the aforementioned Arcane Pool and the not so mentioned Spellslinger's Mage Bullets.

Both add weapon properties in addition to bonuses. I don't think the developers would have a problem with an ability similarly stuctured to this one, since they've released at least 2 class abilities of this type and haven't made magic weapons extinct yet. Hence, why I think this could be a proposed upgrade to the monk they could stomach as long as we're civil about it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Darth Grall wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Actually, I think it would work through ki-focus weapons, which is fine by me. I like the idea, but truly the monk has a lot of demands on his ki and this adds more. I'd prefer a flat bonus thanks to ki-strike without using this - my rule of thumb: if you would use it all the time, make it permanent.
I'll give you the Ki Focus'd thing, hadn't seen that yet. Is that from UE? Regardless, yeah.

No, Ki Focus is core. It's a weapon feature that allows a monk to use their abilities like stunning fist and quivering palm through the weapon rather than only through their unarmed strike.

There is an Improved ki-focus in UE which adds a bonus to the save DCs.

Darth Grall wrote:
Reason why I don't want to make it permanent is that it fits more the way the monk uses Ki and helps diferentiate the monk from full BABers.

That's OK, but it does place a lot of demands on a scarce resource.

Darth Grall wrote:
Also, the only time I've seen the extra Ki feat taken by a PC was for a Ninja who took Forgotten Trick, and I think placing a slight, but more subtle demand on Ki will make this a more often picked choice, the same way the extra arcane pool for magus is picked. I think that it's key that by making this a per minute ability, for 1 Ki, it's actually workable.

The other name for making a feat choice 'popular' is 'feat tax' - a feat you have to take in order make a character or a class feature actually viable. Monks have to pay enough of those as it is.

Darth Grall wrote:
Quote:
I wouldn't add properties, you can get the AoMF for those - remember that the devs do not want to obsolete it, and this could be viewed as doing that.

But in the two cases of similar abilities, the aforementioned Arcane Pool and the not so mentioned Spellslinger's Mage Bullets.

Both add weapon properties in addition to bonuses. I don't think the developers would have a problem with an ability similarly stuctured to this one, since they've released at least 2 class abilities of this type and haven't made magic weapons extinct yet. Hence, why I think this could be a proposed upgrade to the monk they could stomach as long as we're civil about it.

Yes, but they have also stated that they DO NOT want the AoMF made obsolete. The way I see this ability being used is primarily to make up the difference in hitting enhancement anyway, not to rack up abilities. Remember, you don't hit, you don't achieve anything.


The best solution in the 3.5/PF 1.0 paradigm is to cut the AMF price to account for its drawbacks.

It's overpriced because it uses a slot and weapons effectively don't. It's overpriced because natural attacks don't get iteratives. The number of monsters that make more attacks than a level 6 monk and might be equipped from a player's wealth budget is small and I think the only ones that do have two of those attacks as a rake.

If Paizo doesn't recant I'm not sure there are any solutions that fit into the word budget. They could free up a little space from the fluff, but they can't cut abilities without breaking archetypes.

They can clarify that two handed flurry works, which puts strength based weapon monks in band with the higher power attack ratio and extra +1 they can typically afford over TWF compensating for MAD, but that doesn't fix unarmed monks.

Making those two changes will bring monks into band with other martials and semimartials without adding a single word, only changing a few numbers in the CRB magic item chapter and can actually save a few words by removing "as if using X {two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting}," which appears three times and inserting "extra attacks from flurry do not stack with two weapon fighting," which only needs to appear once.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Atarlost wrote:

The best solution in the 3.5/PF 1.0 paradigm is to cut the AMF price to account for its drawbacks.

It's overpriced because it uses a slot and weapons effectively don't. It's overpriced because natural attacks don't get iteratives. The number of monsters that make more attacks than a level 6 monk and might be equipped from a player's wealth budget is small and I think the only ones that do have two of those attacks as a rake.

If Paizo doesn't recant I'm not sure there are any solutions that fit into the word budget. They could free up a little space from the fluff, but they can't cut abilities without breaking archetypes.

Sure there is - free enhancement. If the monk has a base enhancement up to +5 to hit, the AoMF then makes that up to +10 with properties. A +10 weapon with those drawbacks for 125,000gp isn't overpriced at all, and the monk's enhancement to hit means that they keep up with the other martials, and the AoMF could even be optional to some. The AoMF remains adequately priced for creatures with natural attacks, so you get the best of all worlds.

Atarlost wrote:
They can clarify that two handed flurry works, which puts strength based weapon monks in band with the higher power attack ratio and extra +1 they can typically afford over TWF compensating for MAD, but that doesn't fix unarmed monks.

I reckon wisdom bonus to hit with monk weapons & unarmed strikes will help fix monk MADness. A bit of thought toward some monk abilities could help a lot as well.

Atarlost wrote:
Making those two changes will bring monks into band with other martials and semimartials without adding a single word, only changing a few numbers in the CRB magic item chapter and can actually save a few words by removing "as if using X {two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting}," which appears three times and inserting "extra attacks from flurry do not stack with two weapon fighting," which only needs to appear once.

I'd like to say, allowing flurry bonus to hit on single attacks would be nice too. Otherwise I agree, FoB allowing a one-weapon flurry but not being stackable with TWF works fine by me.


Atarlost wrote:
The best solution in the 3.5/PF 1.0 paradigm is to cut the AMF price to account for its drawbacks.

Agreed. The stated reasons for the inflated price are themselves poorly thought out to begin with. While being able to carry more usable items in the hands without sacrificing combat ability (save grappling) is worthwhile, the number of cases where being unable to be disarmed is or have weapons that are not immediately recognizable as such is useful are vanishingly small in most scenarios or campaigns that I've experienced. Arguably the latter or lack of weapons to sunder is already counterbalanced by the number of monsters that cause damage to anyone hitting them with unarmed strikes/natural attacks.

Ki strike could stand to have more usable enhancements at earlier levels as well for that matter.


Dabbler, your suggestions will have difficulty fitting into the wordcount for the current monk without removing other abilities. Any abilities removed will break published archetypes, requiring them to also be errataed.

Shadow Lodge

MA
the issue im seeing with your fix, is that once you take into account archetypes, like the tetori..., my god those characters will be broken. a tetori isnt a high dpr archetype but that +10 to your grapple maneuver will wreck balors and pitfiends. that would be an auto success against anything in the game.

player: "i run up and grapple him"

dm: "whats your cmb roll?"

player: "high enough lol"

dm: "what does everyone else do?"

group: "we run up and curb stomp the balor"

dm: "and that concludes the game"

i really wish we could let that idea through, i thought about making that a house rule in the past, but then i though about the concequences of giving that much to hit to anyone.

i think a +1 every 6 levels would be enough to make the monk more viable.


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Concerning damage: The monk just needs a bonus to hit when flurrying to make him the best at unarmed attacks. His damage with weapons is already decent.

As for his other abilities they need to be made to synergize better. Being able to use a ki point to move and attack at full BAB or make two attacks would be nice.

Wholeness of Body should heal more hit points, and allow the monk to remove certain status affects assuming it fails a save.

Allowing the monk to decide when SR applies once he gets Diamond Soul might also be an option.

Shadow Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:

Concerning damage: The monk just needs a bonus to hit when flurrying to make him the best at unarmed attacks. His damage with weapons is already decent.

As for his other abilities they need to be made to synergize better. Being able to use a ki point to move and attack at full BAB or make two attacks would be nice.

Wholeness of Body should heal more hit points, and allow the monk to remove certain status affects assuming it fails a save.

Allowing the monk to decide when SR applies once he gets Diamond Soul might also be an option.

i like those ideas, but i would add an increase to the ki pool ammount.

i think wis + monk level wouldnt be to much.


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TheSideKick wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Concerning damage: The monk just needs a bonus to hit when flurrying to make him the best at unarmed attacks. His damage with weapons is already decent.

As for his other abilities they need to be made to synergize better. Being able to use a ki point to move and attack at full BAB or make two attacks would be nice.

Wholeness of Body should heal more hit points, and allow the monk to remove certain status affects assuming it fails a save.

Allowing the monk to decide when SR applies once he gets Diamond Soul might also be an option.

i like those ideas, but i would add an increase to the ki pool ammount.

i think wis + monk level wouldnt be to much.

I do think they need more ki. I forgot to add that.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Atarlost wrote:
Dabbler, your suggestions will have difficulty fitting into the wordcount for the current monk without removing other abilities. Any abilities removed will break published archetypes, requiring them to also be errataed.

Anyone thinking that the monk could be fixed without it affecting current archetypes is not living in the real world. Of course it will have a knock-on effect, and some of the archetypes seriously need reworking anyway.

Yes the word-count is an issue, but not a huge one - there are illustrations that can be reduced in size and other places words can be saved or spaces removed to make up the difference. Word-count is an issue with fixing the core monk, but one the devs were aware of when they stated that an item fix was NOT the way they were going. Constantly suggesting an item fix is therefore far less likely to be accepted as a suggested fix than a minor wording change in the existing monk design.


In the interest of freeing up word count, the monk's signature full attack could be renamed. By deleting 'flurry of' from 'monk flurry of blows' you'd free up space in all the rule books, but might inadvertently perpetuate some negative impressions.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Word count may be an issue, but more in the case of fifty words, not five.


Guys,

I *really* want to jump on the "monks are woefully underpowered" bandwagon, mainly because so many of you are already on it that I feel like it must be true. But looking over the class in its entirety, I'm just not feeling it.

Yes, they will have a harder time hitting when they are limited to a single attack, as opposed to a flurry. But even at level 20, at least in my anecdotal experience, there are plenty of chances to full attack that this isn't a crippling deficiency.

And aside from that weakness, the monk gets a lot of benefits. Only listing the ones that seemed particularly good to me:

* Evasion/Improved Evasion
* TWF/ITWF/GTWF equivalents
* Full BAB when full attacking
* DR10/chaotic (!!!)
* Immunity to poison and disease
* Spell Resistance (!!!)
* Ki Pool, can be used to get an extra attack, +4 AC, or dimension door
* Weapons treated as lawful, adamantine, and magic to penetrate DR
* Extreme movement + Acrobatics as a class skill

That's a lot of awesome. I agree they suffer from some MAD, and yes, if your combats never ever let you take a full attack, then that 3/4 bab is going to hurt. But I'm just not getting why some of the folks in this thread seem to think the monk is worthless.

Are you all playing in 20th-level games where you can never full-attack...?

I've currently just started playing in a new campaign where I am a magus, and another player is a monk. I'm very interested in seeing how this plays out, given the sentiments in this thread.


Lord Pendragon wrote:


* TWF/ITWF/GTWF equivalents

Not equibalent because they aren't the feats. So many TWFing feats Two weapon defense are barred since not the feats.

Quote:


* Ki Pool, can be used to get an extra attack, +4 AC, or dimension door

Magus can do that with Spell combat

Quote:


I've currently just started playing in a new campaign where I am a magus, and another player is a monk. I'm very interested in seeing how this plays out, given the sentiments in this thread.

Well, he has to spend a rare source to add an extra attack, you are allowed to spend Arcane Mark for an extra attack.

That just seems unfair.


Starbuck_II wrote:

Well, he has to spend a rare source to add an extra attack, you are allowed to spend Arcane Mark for an extra attack.

That just seems unfair.

Um, no. The monk gets extra attacks with Flurry of blows without spending a rare resource. In fact as they level they get additional extra attacks the magus does not.

And "unfair" is a bit silly when comparing one specific ability to another. You have to compare the entire package. This is what I'm getting at. No, the monk can't do the exact same things as other classes, but it's not like they have no good abilities, which some of the posts in this thread seem to suggest.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lord Pendragon wrote:
Yes, they will have a harder time hitting when they are limited to a single attack, as opposed to a flurry. But even at level 20, at least in my anecdotal experience, there are plenty of chances to full attack that this isn't a crippling deficiency.

Have you been reading this thread? If you have then you will see that this is not the issue. The monk has MAD, taking them +1 to +2 down, on average, to other combat classes and even most 3/4 BAB classes that focus on combat. Then the more expensive enhancement on unarmed strike places them an average +1 to +2 down across most levels as well. Even if they flurry, they are +2 down on full BAB classes because they don't get the option of not flurrying to get a better attack bonus.

So actually the monk is always +2 to +6 down on an equivelant full BAB class, and usually +1-2 down at least on a 3/4 BAB class. Anecdotes are nice, but I have plenty of my monks being shut down and spending entire combats unable to contribute save as an occasional target for stray blows by dint of a boss-fight against a high-AC foe with DR that the other combat guys can punch through but the monk cannot.

Worse, the monk's other combat abilities hinge off hitting - stunning fist needs them to hit and do damage before the save kicks in, for example.

Lord Pendragon wrote:

And aside from that weakness, the monk gets a lot of benefits. Only listing the ones that seemed particularly good to me:

* Evasion/Improved Evasion

Which are nice, it is true. However, battles are not won by defensive abilities.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
* TWF/ITWF/GTWF equivalents

Except that they aren't, they only work with certain weapons, nerf your to-hit as much as they help it with no alternatives, and you get no access to the rest of the feat-tree for TWF.

Flurry of blows is nice, but it's not awesome especially when combined with the monk's other limitations.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
* Full BAB when full attacking

...and 3/4 BAB when not, and when taking AoO's. Who else is less accurate taking a single stroke at a target than they are hammering away? no-one. Plus that full attack has to be at TWF equivelant, so it's actually full BAB-2.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
* DR10/chaotic (!!!)

At level 20...yeah, it's nice, but it's not as good as some other capstones. Again, defensive abilities do not win battles. Besides at 20th level DR 10 isn't going to do more than take the edge off an attack.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
* Immunity to poison and disease

...at levels at which they are of questionable value at best. Plus they are equalled by a few magic items. In fact, most of the monk's special abilities are easily duplicated by items, spells, or both, and these are usually available at lower levels than the monk acquires them.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
* Spell Resistance (!!!)

...vs buffs as well as hostile spells. This hurts the monk as much as it helps him.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
* Ki Pool, can be used to get an extra attack, +4 AC, or dimension door

Ki is a scarce resource, and frankly these advantages are easily trumped by a magus with his spells. +4 AC? shield spell at 1st level. Extra attack? haste the whole party at 7th level. Dimension door? dimension door and take the party with you at 10th level.

These are nice abilities, but not awesome. Abundant step in particular carries a feat-tax to make it work as originally intended (otherwise, it's only really good for crossing vast chasms, running messages or running away), which sucks. It's also easily matched by anyone with a cloak of the mountebank.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
* Weapons treated as lawful, adamantine, and magic to penetrate DR

...And cannot penetrate any other DR until several levels later that other classes can. When was the last time you fought anything with DR/lawful? And DR/adamantine has been bypassed by the other combat classes with their +4 weapons several levels before the monk gets it.

Penetrating DR is one of the monk's problems, it certainly is not among his advantages once you compare it to other classes that are actually designed to fight.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
* Extreme movement + Acrobatics as a class skill

You mean as good as a rogue with a pair of magic boots.

Seriously, the movement can be handy, but it's not all that amazing (and is easily matched by items and spells) and lots of classes have acrobatics.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
That's a lot of awesome.

A few nice ones but in many cases more like a lot of 'meh' dressed up as a lot of awesome once you get down to it.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
I agree they suffer from some MAD, and yes, if your combats never ever let you take a full attack, then that 3/4 bab is going to hurt. But I'm just not getting why some of the folks in this thread seem to think the monk is worthless.

MAD hurts even without the 3/4 BAB, as demonstrated above. The monk despite that is not worthless. They do have some nice tricks, the biggest problem is that they are highly situational. If you are in the situation where monk's thrive, great. If you are not, they suck. That's the problem: the monk is a combat class, and while other combat classes have a baseline and a speciality, the monk has a less effective speciality and no baseline to fall back on when it does not apply.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
Are you all playing in 20th-level games where you can never full-attack...?

Nope. Playing in games 1st through around 16th where full attacks often happen and the monk still has a flurry of misses. Playing in games where the monk is made as best he can be with awesome stats and still gets shut down by a high-AC, high-CMD, DR/good opponent while the other combat characters (including a 3/4 BAB magus I will add) beat the stuffing out of it.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
I've currently just started playing in a new campaign where I am a magus, and another player is a monk. I'm very interested in seeing how this plays out, given the sentiments in this thread.

The monk may shine between 3rd and 7th level if he is lucky and has maneuvers. After that I predict your magus will outshine the monk at every turn.


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Ezekiel W wrote:
In the interest of freeing up word count, the monk's signature full attack could be renamed. By deleting 'flurry of' from 'monk flurry of blows' you'd free up space in all the rule books, but might inadvertently perpetuate some negative impressions.

I see what you did there.


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Since dabbler addressed Pendragon...

Quote:

Inner Strength (Su)

A monk can expend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to grant himself a +1 enhancement bonus on unarmed attack and damage rolls, including combat maneuver checks made to grapple, for 1 minute. At 7th level and every three levels beyond 7th, the user gains another +1 unarmed enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 16th level. These bonuses can be added to the existing enchancement bonuses to unarmed attacks, stacking with existing enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.

At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: agile, axiomatic, defending, ghost touch, merciful, menacing, and wounding.

Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any unarmed enchantment bonus the user already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the user doesn't have an unarmed enchantment bonus, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the ki pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the monk uses this ability.

I kept the extra abilities, and added some at the behest of MA. I also rewrote it to act functionally similar to the brawling armor ability, to grant the bonus to grappling as well(so they can better grapple large non-humanoids like we wanted).

I still don't think this would diminish the value for AoMF, since there are several abilities that in addition to enchantment bonus, ALL confer abilities with their bonus(Mage Bullets, Arcane Pool, and the Paladin's Divine Bond). And again the abilities could be stripped away if need be but I think it's in step with other abilities, whose role once the PC has a +5 magic weapon is to be a "toolbox" for that character, something I think the Monk lacks offensively.

Though my question is... What would we give up for this? What would we change for this? Or do we think monk is so weak that it need an ability like this atop of all that we already have? I'm leaning towards, altering the wording of the Ki Pool to word this(or similar) ability in. Perhaps to replace the magic/lawful aspects of the ability(since this makes the magic and potentially could be lawful if needed).


Orthos wrote:
... both can enhance their weapons much better than a Monk can with yet more damage-dealing potential. ...

^Here

This is one of the big ones. Getting enchanted fists is a pain in the butt!

The only possible work-around is if you get Perm. Great Magic Fang spell for a +5 and just hope you don't die. Because as soon as you die, even if you get a breath of life, all you perm. spells are gone.

You might be able to talk a GM into allow you to use this tactic with a Might-Fist amulet, but no RAI and RAW don't allow this unfortunately.


I think it's a bit disingenuous to dismiss some of the monk's better abilities because they can be duplicated with magic items, and yet on the flipside play up the magus' arcane enhancement as one of the big advantages they have. The fact that an ability can be duplicated via magic item really has no bearing on its usefulness or power.

How much more expensive is the AoMF over weapon enhancement? I presume double, to represent the fact that it takes the place of two weapons used for TWF?

Also, I'd like to delve deeper into DR. Why does DR hinder a monk more than other TWF classes? Presumably every such class has the same hindrance, and will need to keep backup weapons on hand for penetrating it? Or have the cleric carry scrolls of Versatile Weapon on hand? What is it about the monk that makes DR worse for them in particular, as opposed to better, since they at least get some free DR penetration along the way?


Lord Pendragon wrote:

I think it's a bit disingenuous to dismiss some of the monk's better abilities because they can be duplicated with magic items, and yet on the flipside play up the magus' arcane enhancement as one of the big advantages they have. The fact that an ability can be duplicated via magic item really has no bearing on its usefulness or power.

How much more expensive is the AoMF over weapon enhancement? I presume double, to represent the fact that it takes the place of two weapons used for TWF?

Also, I'd like to delve deeper into DR. Why does DR hinder a monk more than other TWF classes? Presumably every such class has the same hindrance, and will need to keep backup weapons on hand for penetrating it? Or have the cleric carry scrolls of Versatile Weapon on hand? What is it about the monk that makes DR worse for them in particular, as opposed to better, since they at least get some free DR penetration along the way?

Because in PF they made it so +3 or higher weapons gets through various types of DR. In fact a +5 weapon can cut through DR/Adamantine.

However, a monk only gets AoMF which is not a weapon so bonuses from the AoMF doesn't get past DR. Also the AoMF is over 2 times as expensive as a weapon. So by the time other TWF get two +5 weapons a monk is still rocking a +4 AoMF.


Can I just point out something real quick?
Evasion is absolutely great. Improved Evasion is nowhere near a big enough deal to list as a "boon."

Of all the classes that get Evasion as a feature, they're all Reflex-high and are likely to make their save in the first place. If you're likely to make your save in the first place, Improved Evasion does nothing.

(And for everyone else, there's a ring. But, if you have trouble making your reflex saves in the first place, then Evasion isn't good for you. You'd want Improved Evasion. But there is no ring of Imp. Evasion.)


Lord Pendragon wrote:
I think it's a bit disingenuous to dismiss some of the monk's better abilities because they can be duplicated with magic items, and yet on the flipside play up the magus' arcane enhancement as one of the big advantages they have. The fact that an ability can be duplicated via magic item really has no bearing on its usefulness or power.

But it does when, for example, a ring of Feather Fall is a mere 1100 to make, 2200 to buy. And the reason we play up the Magus' ability to enchant is simple, it and several abilites like it(Mage Bullets, Divine Bond, ETC) directly solve a problem monks have.

Quote:
How much more expensive is the AoMF over weapon enhancement? I presume double, to represent the fact that it takes the place of two weapons used for TWF?

250% the price actually. A +5 Weapon is 50,000. For the monk, [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists]AoMF costs 125,000[/url. But the downsides don't stop there, unlike a real magic weapon you can't enhance it with abilities beyond +5. So while the Rogue can wield 2 +5 daggers each with another +5 abilities(essentially +10 costing daggers), a monk can NEVER reach that since our bonuses cap at +5 and we cannot wear more than one amulet. Read AoMF if you don't believe me.

And as Gignere points out, most importantly, it doesn't even get past DR. No backup weapon needed if you have a high enough bonus. Well, not for the monk though.

Also I don't think monks bad, I love monks, I just think that they need to be redesigned/tweaked to make them more effective/synergistic and less keeping relics from 3.0. And a simple self enhancement atop the rest of the core package would go a long way. Throw in the ability to flurry and move(even partially) and we'd be golden.


Gignere wrote:

Because in PF they made it so +3 or higher weapons gets through various types of DR. In fact a +5 weapon can cut through DR/Adamantine.

However, a monk only gets AoMF which is not a weapon so bonuses from the AoMF doesn't get past DR. Also the AoMF is over 2 times as expensive as a weapon. So by the time other TWF get two +5 weapons a monk is still rocking a +4 AoMF.

Thank you. This is the piece of the puzzle I've been missing.

So let me pose another question. If a DM were to house rule the AoMF to be exactly 2x the cost of an equivalent enhancement weapon--and that it has the same ability to penetrate DR via enhancement that weapons do--that would solve a lot of the problem then, correct?

Also, unrelated but this thread made me think of it. Regarding single attacks where a full attack isn't possible, the monk only lags behind a couple of points on hit, correct? I'm thinking in my group I may need to convince one of the clerics to put the monk first on the buff list to help aleviate this.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Gignere wrote:
However, a monk only gets AoMF which is not a weapon so bonuses from the AoMF doesn't get past DR. Also the AoMF is over 2 times as expensive as a weapon. So by the time other TWF get two +5 weapons a monk is still rocking a +4 AoMF.
Darth Grall wrote:
And as Gignere points out, most importantly, it doesn't even get past DR. No backup weapon needed if you have a high enough bonus. Well, not for the monk though.

This is not supported by the rules. The amulet is not a weapon but it provides enhancement bonuses to unarmed strikes and natural weapons which ARE weapons.


Shadowdweller wrote:
Gignere wrote:
However, a monk only gets AoMF which is not a weapon so bonuses from the AoMF doesn't get past DR. Also the AoMF is over 2 times as expensive as a weapon. So by the time other TWF get two +5 weapons a monk is still rocking a +4 AoMF.
Darth Grall wrote:
And as Gignere points out, most importantly, it doesn't even get past DR. No backup weapon needed if you have a high enough bonus. Well, not for the monk though.
This is not supported by the rules. The amulet is not a weapon but it provides enhancement bonuses to unarmed strikes and natural weapons which ARE weapons.

The logic here is that the AoMF doesn't bypass DR types for the same reason that the spell required to craft one (Greater Magic Fang) doesn't bypass DR types.

Your unarmed attacks are never what's magical. It's the amulet that's magical, and granting you it's bonus.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

The only possible work-around is if you get Perm. Great Magic Fang spell for a +5 and just hope you don't die. Because as soon as you die, even if you get a breath of life, all you perm. spells are gone.

You might be able to talk a GM into allow you to use this tactic with a Might-Fist amulet, but no RAI and RAW don't allow this unfortunately.

There is debate over whether the AoMF allows the monk to bypass DR as a magic weapon (I think any DM that does not allow this is a douche, myself, but that's by-the-by), but there is NO doubt that GMF does not bypass DR save DR/magic.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
I think it's a bit disingenuous to dismiss some of the monk's better abilities because they can be duplicated with magic items, and yet on the flipside play up the magus' arcane enhancement as one of the big advantages they have. The fact that an ability can be duplicated via magic item really has no bearing on its usefulness or power.

It has two bearings:

#1 is that it makes the ability a lot less unique. How many magic items duplicate paladin's smite, or ranger's favoured enemy, or fighter's weapon training? That do not also stack with those said abilities (a paladin gets more from a holy weapon, a ranger from a bane weapon, etc)?
#2 is that they become a measure of how useful the ability actually is. If everyone is carrying a periapt against poison, you know immunity to poison is really useful. If no-one is, you know it isn't. If every fighter has spell-resistant armour as a must-have on their shopping list, you know it's valuable. If none do, you know it's not.
#3 if the item is really cheap, then is the ability worth the resources expended rather than using the item? I'm looking at wholeness of body, worth as much as a cure potion and costing a lot of ki instead.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
How much more expensive is the AoMF over weapon enhancement? I presume double, to represent the fact that it takes the place of two weapons used for TWF?

No, it's 2.5x the cost of a normal weapon, because it can be used by animals and monsters to enhance their multiple natural attacks. However that is only half the story.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
So let me pose another question. If a DM were to house rule the AoMF to be exactly 2x the cost of an equivalent enhancement weapon--and that it has the same ability to penetrate DR via enhancement that weapons do--that would solve a lot of the problem then, correct?

There is also the point that a TWFing warrior can have one weapon always at the maximum enhancement he can find, and that's a single weapon cost. Also, the sword & board fighter is, above 11th level, using Shield Master to get his shield bonus treated as a weapon enhancement bonus, so he is only paying 150% of one weapon cost for two fully enhanced weapons. Admittedly he has no special weapon properties on his 2nd 'weapon', but he's getting it way cheaper too.

Your proposal would help, certainly, but it's not the whole problem.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
Also, I'd like to delve deeper into DR. Why does DR hinder a monk more than other TWF classes? Presumably every such class has the same hindrance, and will need to keep backup weapons on hand for penetrating it? Or have the cleric carry scrolls of Versatile Weapon on hand? What is it about the monk that makes DR worse for them in particular, as opposed to better, since they at least get some free DR penetration along the way?

Others have answered this already - that enhancement in pathfinder bypasses DR (one reason DR 10/chaotic isn't so awesome, when +5 enhancement gets past it). Hence the monk's DR penetration is less than enough (even if you allow the AoMF to penetrate DR, as most DM's would, it is still behind the curve).

Lord Pendragon wrote:
Also, unrelated but this thread made me think of it. Regarding single attacks where a full attack isn't possible, the monk only lags behind a couple of points on hit, correct? I'm thinking in my group I may need to convince one of the clerics to put the monk first on the buff list to help alleviate this.

It's a good point...problem is, it's not really the job of one party member to commit time and resources to another party member so that they can perform adequately. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying it really underlines the problems that the monk has and that need addressing.

It's one thing when every fighting class needs align weapon cast on them, another when only one does.


Dabbler wrote:
There is debate over whether the AoMF allows the monk to bypass DR as a magic weapon (I think any DM that does not allow this is a douche, myself, but that's by-the-by), but there is NO doubt that GMF does not bypass DR save DR/magic.

Wait, so there's a reasonable precedent that AoMF does bypass DR?

Quote:

It has two bearings:

#1 is that it makes the ability a lot less unique.

This is irrelevant to a discussion of balance, though. Now if you want to discuss flavor, sure. But balance does not depend on abilities being special snowflakes.

Quote:
#2 is that they become a measure of how useful the ability actually is. If everyone is carrying a periapt against poison, you know immunity to poison is really useful. If no-one is, you know it isn't. If every fighter has spell-resistant armour as a must-have on their shopping list, you know it's valuable. If none do, you know it's not.

I'm not sure that an ability not being "must-have" equates to it being worthless.

Quote:
#3 if the item is really cheap, then is the ability worth the resources expended rather than using the item? I'm looking at wholeness of body, worth as much as a cure potion and costing a lot of ki instead.

This I can agree with, and some of the criticisms up above have included cost. But others just simply say "meh, you can duplicate it with a magic item" and that item turns out to not be cheap, going back to #1.

...and yeah, I was re-reading the monk class before posting in this thread, and Wholeness of Body... :(

Quote:
No, it's 2.5x the cost of a normal weapon, because it can be used by animals and monsters to enhance their multiple natural attacks. However that is only half the story.

You know, I feel like a big part of the monk's troubles isn't with the class as written, but with the AoMF. Simply disallowing its use on natural weapons and creating a separate item for companions/monsters so you can properly price/stat it for PCs seems like a simple fix.

Quote:
problem is, it's not really the job of one party member to commit time and resources to another party member so that they can perform adequately

I disagree with this strongly. It's not necessary (or I believe designed) that each class be a one-man army. The wizard needs the fighter to keep stuff off him. The fighter needs the rogue to sneak past the sleeping guards and snag the key. The cleric needs the ranger to take out the snipers pelting her with arrows. A party depends on each other to shore up their respective weaknesses and amplify their respective strengths.

Arguing that a monk is going to flounder outside of a party is meaningless because he's hardly ever going to be outside of a party. Sure, being self-sufficient is nice. Eventually the fighter might consider grabbing boots of flying to handle flying foes. But until then, he'll depend on the wizard to cast fly on him if needed, just as the monk will depend on the cleric to buff his to-hit versus high-AC foes.


The big question to ask is "whom are you fighting?"

If rogues and monks go rushing into melee with the big evil fighter dude, they will fair poorly.

If they leave the big evil fighter dude to their party's fighter and wizard while they sneak around and try to take out the enemy wizard, they'll do better. The monk, in particular, has several abilities to help him with this.


Unfortunately, the Amulet of Mighty Fists does not overcome damage reduction.

Quote:

From the Core Rules Document (Page 568):

Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.

....

Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus s needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.

The AoMF is not a weapon, it is a wondrous item. Now, I wish this were not the case, but by a strict reading of the rules, it is. The amulet is not a weapon, even though it bestows an enhancement bonus on natural weapons and unarmed strikes, and therefore it does not bypass DR based on enhancement bonus, anymore than a weapon enchanted by greater magic fang or greater magic weapon.

MA

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