Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

RPG Superstar 2015

If Monks have trouble hitting...


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

301 to 350 of 1,235 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>

One thing to consider. I've heard over and over that teh monk is your ideal flanking buddy with his high speed. But if you don't max out your acro, your ability to get into position is going to be all that much harder, as the DC to tumble past or through opponents is based on their CMD... which keeps going up and up as your opponents' CR does.

Means he doesn't need it as a scout, but to get full benefit of being a mobile monk in combat, seems pretty imperative that it be maxed.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Hmm, to fulfill the scouting role, I'd recommend mixing the rogue with monk, and taking open minded and such skill boosting feats just once. Bit of sneak, flurry, more skills, bam.

You mean like the ninja? Whom can sneak better, has more skills, and can burn ki to get extra attacks with their sneak attack damage? I'm telling you, they're just sorta amazing scouts.

Dark Archive Star Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.

So... is the only problem the errata of brass knockless? Say allowing monk's to enchant their fists to get a +5 to hit?

Liberty's Edge

Atarlost wrote:

Sift doesn't actually do anything useful. The penalty it imposes is greater than the distance penalty it removes.

That gives it the title as worst thing Paizo has ever printed. Prone Shooter does absolutely nothing, but Sift actually makes you worse at perception when you use it.

Sift allows you to use Perception as though you were touching things at a range of 30 feet, which is awesome. A cantrip ability that allows you to detect illusion-cloaked traps and pits as if you were standing on them is far from the worst thing Paizo has ever printed.


Well, the original problem is that the amulet of mighty fists is mis-priced, but without the brass knuckles errata it'd be okay, especially if there was also a forehead protector and/or steel toed boots for those want to use a long spear or other polearm for reach and unarmed strike at 5'.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

While wierd, they released "horseshoes of crushing blows". It works like the amulet of mighty fists, but only for hoof attacks, except CHEAPER. Oh, and they can made out of special materials too, for the price of a single weapon rather than two.

And remember Unarmed Strikes of s Monk can act like natural attacks whwen it benefits them (except feats as INA won't work).

So buy your Monk a Horseshoe (you get two) and you deal +X for cheap. They aren't weapons so they should deal unarmed damage. Wierd looking I'll admit...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So you can make a fully functional monk if it's a centaur. Wait, do minotaurs have hooves? You can make a minotaur monk. Aha. Tieflings. I think tieflings can have hooves and are a PC race. Tiefling monks can avoid sucking. Until someone at Paizo notices.

Star Voter 2013

It is funny because with two horseshoes you avoid the whole issue of the flurry of blows clarfication.


Starbuck_II wrote:

While wierd, they released "horseshoes of crushing blows". It works like the amulet of mighty fists, but only for hoof attacks, except CHEAPER. Oh, and they can made out of special materials too, for the price of a single weapon rather than two.

And remember Unarmed Strikes of s Monk can act like natural attacks whwen it benefits them (except feats as INA won't work).

So buy your Monk a Horseshoe (you get two) and you deal +X for cheap. They aren't weapons so they should deal unarmed damage. Wierd looking I'll admit...

I like this idea. Unfortunately, the description for Horshoes of Crushing Blows indicates "All four shoes must be worn by the same animal to be effective." (Difficult to provide a link while typing on this phone...)

Liberty's Edge

ulgulanoth wrote:
So... is the only problem the errata of brass knockless? Say allowing monk's to enchant their fists to get a +5 to hit?

Part of the problem is that the base monk, because of his Multiple Ability Dependency (or MAD) hits the ground running a good 2 points or more behind the to-hit of other combat-oriented classes. This disparity increases as you level because as other classes get various abilities that boost their ability to hit (Weapon Training, Favored Enemy/Terrain, Rage, Bardic Performance, Arcane Pool, Judgements, etc.) and have a magic weapon progression that is always at least +1 ahead of what the AoMF offers, the monk gains no additional bonus to their ability to actually connect with a hit.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Starbuck_II wrote:
While wierd, they released "horseshoes of crushing blows". It works like the amulet of mighty fists, but only for hoof attacks, except CHEAPER. Oh, and they can made out of special materials too, for the price of a single weapon rather than two.

What the what! Now they're just taunting monk players.

"Here's some brass knuckles that do exactly what every combat-oriented monk wants from magic weapons... except they don't count as unarmed strike attacks! Haha!

"Here's the brawling armor property that would let your attack bonus stay competitive... except it's the only the armor property in the game you can't add to bracers of armor! Neener, neener, neener!

"Here's the thing: amulet of mighty fists will never be replaced, because it's more than good enough for monks... but it's not good enough for horses! Should have picked horse as your race, you stupid monk!"


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Epic Meepo wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
While wierd, they released "horseshoes of crushing blows". It works like the amulet of mighty fists, but only for hoof attacks, except CHEAPER. Oh, and they can made out of special materials too, for the price of a single weapon rather than two.

What the what! Now they're just taunting monk players.

"Here's some brass knuckles that do exactly what every combat-oriented monk wants from magic weapons... except they don't count as unarmed strike attacks! Haha!

"Here's the brawling armor property that would let your attack bonus stay competitive... except it's the only the armor property in the game you can't add to bracers of armor! Neener, neener, neener!

"Here's the thing: amulet of mighty fists will never be replaced, because it's more than good enough for monks... but it's not good enough for horses! Should have picked horse as your race, you stupid monk!"

Yes, that is how some people have interpreted the actions of the developers. I don't think it's true, but I do think they really need to give the monk class a good hard look. What they could be doing is not painting themselves into a corner with an item fix rather than a proper class fix.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 , Star Voter 2014

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I removed a post. Don't be a jerk.


While we're on the subject of monk tauntings, why don't we bring up Align Weapon? You know how monks have difficulties penetrating DR because of the amulet's expense. Well, there's this convenient spell that allows most combatants to get around those pesky alignment-based versions. Pity it specifically is called out as not applying to the monk.

"You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike." Oy.


Epic Meepo wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
While wierd, they released "horseshoes of crushing blows". It works like the amulet of mighty fists, but only for hoof attacks, except CHEAPER. Oh, and they can made out of special materials too, for the price of a single weapon rather than two.

What the what! Now they're just taunting monk players.

"Here's some brass knuckles that do exactly what every combat-oriented monk wants from magic weapons... except they don't count as unarmed strike attacks! Haha!

"Here's the brawling armor property that would let your attack bonus stay competitive... except it's the only the armor property in the game you can't add to bracers of armor! Neener, neener, neener!

"Here's the thing: amulet of mighty fists will never be replaced, because it's more than good enough for monks... but it's not good enough for horses! Should have picked horse as your race, you stupid monk!"

A Centaur Monk starts out 3 levels behind in Monk at 4th level (CR 3 +1 level Monk), but eventually at level 7 they get only two levels behind before being only one level (according to Monsters as PC).

In exchange for lower Monk levels you get cheaper enhancement to unarmed strikes (the Horseshoes).

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And at the point where people are even entertaining the notion that Paizo puts items / abilities in the game to taunt monks, this thread has run its course.

All hail ∅

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

In the next episode: Monk Fans unearth shocking facts - Jason's first D&D character was killed by a Monk. Ever since, Jason is on an eternal quest to DESTROY ALL MONKS.

Popcorn at eleven.


wraithstrike wrote:
So if the class was released in the CRB it would be ok? By CRB I was assuming archetypes were not available for the purpose of this post.

Yes, guy, comparing a CRB class with CRB feats and choices to other CRB classes with CRB feats and choices would be logically consistent. Though of questionable worth since all this other material HAS been released and, as mentioned previously, Paizo is very unlikely to offer a revision of the core books (ETA: I should say one that includes major alterations to the monk class).

wraithstrike wrote:
In short you can take a newer class and restrict it to core feats, making sure it does not even gets feats made for that class, and it is still better than a core monk.

You could, but it still would not be a reasonable or appropriate comparison.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

No one said Paizo literally puts things in the game to taunt monks. Taunting is, in this case, a metaphor to describe the plight of monk players wanting to be masters of unarmed combat.

In much the same way, you could say, "This rain is taunting me," if you have to walk home in a downpour after your car breaks down on the freeway. The rain isn't actually taunting you, but that metaphor captures the essence of the bad day you're having.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I have hope that the Monk fix will be awesome, because it won't be equipment-dependent. There is a whiff of Vow of Poverty around all monks--is that something I remember from 1e, like, they didn't have much starting g.p.?--and if they are less gear-dependent, which appears to be the flavor Paizo prefers, then...well, here's hoping. Less gear-dependent, and good at something.

There really ought to be a Monk Complaint FAQ, so that the same cycle of 'fix-no, that was errata'd-but what about this wording?-oh, SKR statement here says no-deflation' and 'UE shock' and 'monks don't suck!-oh wait, you guys are right...' doesn't occur over and over again. A Google Doc, even, and then people can point to the link, which has citations. That would (theoretically) prevent as much rehashing.


Eben TheQuiet wrote:

One thing to consider. I've heard over and over that teh monk is your ideal flanking buddy with his high speed. But if you don't max out your acro, your ability to get into position is going to be all that much harder, as the DC to tumble past or through opponents is based on their CMD... which keeps going up and up as your opponents' CR does.

Means he doesn't need it as a scout, but to get full benefit of being a mobile monk in combat, seems pretty imperative that it be maxed.

Why not double move, first far left (or right), then into rear, and flurry next round? Seen players also ramp the dodge, expertise and mobility up, as they move into position. If they turn on you, your defences are up, and they can often waste attacks. What they were fighting can then flank in your place, what you intended to do before you were swung at.

Gorb, one of the players I know that loves monks, his name was Jason! Fan of the old Hong Kong martial art films like no other.


Starbuck_II wrote:

While wierd, they released "horseshoes of crushing blows". It works like the amulet of mighty fists, but only for hoof attacks, except CHEAPER. Oh, and they can made out of special materials too, for the price of a single weapon rather than two.

And remember Unarmed Strikes of s Monk can act like natural attacks whwen it benefits them (except feats as INA won't work).

So buy your Monk a Horseshoe (you get two) and you deal +X for cheap. They aren't weapons so they should deal unarmed damage. Wierd looking I'll admit...

Does that guy have horseshoes on his hands and feet?

Kapow.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Eben TheQuiet wrote:
Means he doesn't need it as a scout, but to get full benefit of being a mobile monk in combat, seems pretty imperative that it be maxed.
Why not double move, first far left (or right), then into rear, and flurry next round? Seen players also ramp the dodge, expertise and mobility up, as they move into position. If they turn on you, your defences are up, and they can often waste attacks. What they were fighting can then flank in your place, what you intended to do before you were swung at.

Because some enemies are just so inconsiderate that they can't always be flanked without you moving thrugh threatened areas...

Axolotl wrote:
I have hope that the Monk fix will be awesome, because it won't be equipment-dependent. There is a whiff of Vow of Poverty around all monks--is that something I remember from 1e, like, they didn't have much starting g.p.?--and if they are less gear-dependent, which appears to be the flavor Paizo prefers, then...well, here's hoping. Less gear-dependent, and good at something.

Yes they have that feel...and end up more equipment-dependent than other classes, just more dependent on less equipment.

The fix has to include something to reduce MAD, something to improve chances to hit and something to get past DR for the monk to hit the baseline in combat.

Axolotl wrote:
There really ought to be a Monk Complaint FAQ, so that the same cycle of 'fix-no, that was errata'd-but what about this wording?-oh, SKR statement here says no-deflation' and 'UE shock' and 'monks don't suck!-oh wait, you guys are right...' doesn't occur over and over again. A Google Doc, even, and then people can point to the link, which has citations. That would (theoretically) prevent as much rehashing.

It would be nice!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Dabbler wrote:


Yes they have that feel...and end up more equipment-dependent than other classes, just more dependent on less equipment.

Indeed, a monk's quest in life shouldn't be for that elusive Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists--it's a quest for inner peace, right? Monks are strange enough to potentially merit being that one class that would do well with powers that are gear-independent. The abilities of unarmed strike at higher levels hint at that anyhow.

I had this idea that it would be cool if a monk could enhance their unarmed strike as befits the situation by drawing from their ki pool, in the way that a Magus uses their arcane pool. This further obviates the need for gear and would turn Unarmed Strike into "Swiss Army Knife Strike".

Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Now, I think it is important to emphasize that reducing MAD is *not* a requirement for a successful and good monk class. Reducing MAD on the >current< monk is >one< of the ways in which he could be made more on par with other classes, true, but it's not what we're campaigning for:

The ordinary monk (i.e. a non-hyper specialized twink) should have a respectable battlefield presence (and excel in unarmed combat) and have a fair variety of out-of-combat options.

Exactly how that is achieved is not really important - the monk could keep low to-hit but get a massive bonus to damage (similar to sneak attack) and that would be an acceptable way to improve on the monk. Alternatively at every even level where a monk does not get a bonus feat he could get some additional benefit that would aid him (such as a bonus to-hit and the ability to bypass more material-based DR). Again alternatively, the MAD issue could be addressed and the monk could chose to use Wisdom for hit-and-damage; which in itself would help push along the rating of the monk.

There are many ways in which the issues can be addressed - what is important is looking at the package as a whole, and changes as a whole, and see how well it works. As opposed to automatically complaining if any given fix does not directly address all the problems identified.

Put another way: by my reckoning, an ordinary monk at level 10 currently has an expected damage per round of about 30. If the change increases that by 50% to 45, then I'll be quite satisfied - irrespective of how that change was brought about.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LoreKeeper wrote:
Now, I think it is important to emphasize that reducing MAD is *not* a requirement for a successful and good monk class. Reducing MAD on the >current< monk is >one< of the ways in which he could be made more on par with other classes, true, but it's not what we're campaigning for:

Speak for yourself :D . The monk and the paladin used to be equally MAD, but the paladin's MAD has been much reduced. The monk's could be as well, and I can't see why not really.

LoreKeeper wrote:

The ordinary monk (i.e. a non-hyper specialized twink) should have a respectable battlefield presence (and excel in unarmed combat) and have a fair variety of out-of-combat options.

I agree, this would be an ideal to aim for. If it isn't, then the monk needs some other extension in their abilities to say they are NOT a combat class.

LoreKeeper wrote:
Exactly how that is achieved is not really important - the monk could keep low to-hit but get a massive bonus to damage (similar to sneak attack) and that would be an acceptable way to improve on the monk.

I think this itself has been ruled out by the devs. Besides, having massive damage isn't much cop if you cannot hit reliably, it just makes you more vulnerable to quirks of the dice.

LoreKeeper wrote:
Alternatively at every even level where a monk does not get a bonus feat he could get some additional benefit that would aid him (such as a bonus to-hit and the ability to bypass more material-based DR). Again alternatively, the MAD issue could be addressed and the monk could chose to use Wisdom for hit-and-damage; which in itself would help push along the rating of the monk.

I think myself:

  • Wisdom to hit only with monk weapons/unarmed strike/maneuvers
  • An enhancement to hit from ki-strike (that also applies to maneuvers made unarmed, preferably)
  • A ki-ability to bypass DR
    These would make the monk work well enough in combat
    These are my big three favoured changes. Reduce MAD a little, give the monk a boost so they can hit without it hinging on the AoMF, let them get through DR.

    LoreKeeper wrote:
    There are many ways in which the issues can be addressed - what is important is looking at the package as a whole, and changes as a whole, and see how well it works. As opposed to automatically complaining if any given fix does not directly address all the problems identified.

    I do agree here. There are a lot of minor changes that could really add up, and the devs will want to avoid the monk getting over-powered.

    LoreKeeper wrote:
    Put another way: by my reckoning, an ordinary monk at level 10 currently has an expected damage per round of about 30. If the change increases that by 50% to 45, then I'll be quite satisfied - irrespective of how that change was brought about.

    To me, damage potential isn't an issue, getting the hits and getting through DR is. If you can do those, stunning fist suddenly becomes effective.


  • Even limited to monk weapons wis to accuracy could cause problems.

    Specifically druid problems. Druids would have two routes to get their casting stat to damage with a monk dip. Either they get feral weapon training and count their natural attacks as unarmed strikes, or they use a quarterstaff with shillelagh.

    A clean monk fix (reasonable pricing for AMF) would help druids, but wisdom to attack for a one level dip that also gets it to AC is a bit too much of an assist.


    Axolotl wrote:

    Indeed, a monk's quest in life shouldn't be for that elusive Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists--it's a quest for inner peace, right? Monks are strange enough to potentially merit being that one class that would do well with powers that are gear-independent. The abilities of unarmed strike at higher levels hint at that anyhow.

    I had this idea that it would be cool if a monk could enhance their unarmed strike as befits the situation by drawing from their ki pool, in the way that a Magus uses their arcane pool. This further obviates the need for gear and would turn Unarmed Strike into "Swiss Army Knife Strike".

    I would love this, for so many reasons, but namely flavor. Even if it came in the form of a feat tax. This self enhancement is one of the ways the Magus rofl stomps the monk in battle field presence and it wouldn't invalidate AoMF. At least no more than the Magi's pool invalidates a magic weapon.

    Sure it'd burn Ki like no one's business, unless you're one of those, 15 minutes per day adventurers, but if the monk had this it would actually make the Extra Ki feats worth a damn to take.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Atarlost wrote:
    A clean monk fix (reasonable pricing for AMF) would help druids, but wisdom to attack for a one level dip that also gets it to AC is a bit too much of an assist.

    Except that it would only apply to monk weapons, not to druid weapons or natural weapons. You could take the feat for natural weapons, I suppose, but then that's cost you a feat.

    I'm not actually concerned that this is a problem, as the druid wanting to go for wildshape and melee is going to ramp up strength in any event.

    The other option would be Weapon Finesse/Agile Maneuvers for free, and that makes monk a great 1-level dip for rogues.


    Dabbler wrote:
    Atarlost wrote:
    A clean monk fix (reasonable pricing for AMF) would help druids, but wisdom to attack for a one level dip that also gets it to AC is a bit too much of an assist.

    Except that it would only apply to monk weapons, not to druid weapons or natural weapons. You could take the feat for natural weapons, I suppose, but then that's cost you a feat.

    I'm not actually concerned that this is a problem, as the druid wanting to go for wildshape and melee is going to ramp up strength in any event.

    The other option would be Weapon Finesse/Agile Maneuvers for free, and that makes monk a great 1-level dip for rogues.

    Shillelagh applies to a quarterstaff. Quarterstaves are monk weapons. Quarterstaves that deal damage at +2 size categories are monk weapons that don't suck.

    Stat consolidation is not the answer. Fixing the equipment problem is the answer. Since Paizo has refused to even consider this the next best answer is weapon training.

    Star Voter 2013

    Dabbler wrote:
    3.5 Loyalist wrote:
    Eben TheQuiet wrote:
    Means he doesn't need it as a scout, but to get full benefit of being a mobile monk in combat, seems pretty imperative that it be maxed.
    Why not double move, first far left (or right), then into rear, and flurry next round? Seen players also ramp the dodge, expertise and mobility up, as they move into position. If they turn on you, your defences are up, and they can often waste attacks. What they were fighting can then flank in your place, what you intended to do before you were swung at.

    Because some enemies are just so inconsiderate that they can't always be flanked without you moving thrugh threatened areas...

    I do not see how having a hihg acrobatics can me contraproducent to the monk. It is a skill you want to heavily invest anayway. For example if the monk have really high acrobatics he could jump and land the other side of the enemy line.


    2d6/x2 (Shillelagh'd Quarterstaff) actually is a weapon that still sucks. 2d6 is good for early levels, but there's a reason people put down their Greatswords and pick up a Falchion.


    Atarlost wrote:

    Even limited to monk weapons wis to accuracy could cause problems.

    Specifically druid problems. Druids would have two routes to get their casting stat to damage with a monk dip. Either they get feral weapon training and count their natural attacks as unarmed strikes, or they use a quarterstaff with shillelagh.

    A clean monk fix (reasonable pricing for AMF) would help druids, but wisdom to attack for a one level dip that also gets it to AC is a bit too much of an assist.

    One option to discourage dipping would be this:

    Intuitive Strike (Ex):
    Starting at 2nd level, when wearing no armor (incuding wielding a shield) and carrying no more than a light load, a monk adds 1 point of Wisdom bonus (if any) for every two monk class levels to all attack rolls made with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (see flurry of blows above). A monk adds this bonus (if any) in addition to their Strength bonus on attack rolls. This bonus also applies to any Combat Maneuvers that the monk initiates, provided that he is unarmed or using a special monk weapon to perform the maneuver (this includes grapple checks).

    Does nothing for MAD, but provides a very nice boost that scales as the monk gains levels. He still needs Strength for damage, Dexterity for AC, and Constitution for hit points (and Intelligence for skills), but it does provide a means of letting a monk actually score hits. Even if he has a 20 Wisdom, he would have to be 10th level to get to add a +5. And if you play a balanced character (and most monks are, in my experience), he isn't going to be starting with more than a 16 in Wisdom.

    Even at the highest levels, he is probably looking at around a Wisdom of 24 . . . that is with enhancement bonuses and inherent bonuses and a few points placed in Wisdom every four levels (he also has to concentrate on raising Dex and Str and Con, after all). So that is a +7 bonus to hit at most, above what the monk normally has. Fighter weapon training is +4 (+6 with gloves of dueling), greater weapon focus is +1, and the fighter doesn't get the -2 penalty of flurry. So, the monk is either equal to the fighter or slightly behind with his attack rolls, but far behind in the damage he can deal (lower Strength, no weapon spec, no greater weapon spec, no weapon training bonus; at a minimum we are looking at +8/+10 behind before the difference in Strength). And that isn't even considering that the monk can only have a total of +5 in his AoMF, whereas the fighter can wield a +5 sword with another +5 of special weapon properties (holy, speed, whatever).

    Just an idea, but one that might work well.

    MA


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Atarlost wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:
    Atarlost wrote:
    A clean monk fix (reasonable pricing for AMF) would help druids, but wisdom to attack for a one level dip that also gets it to AC is a bit too much of an assist.

    Except that it would only apply to monk weapons, not to druid weapons or natural weapons. You could take the feat for natural weapons, I suppose, but then that's cost you a feat.

    I'm not actually concerned that this is a problem, as the druid wanting to go for wildshape and melee is going to ramp up strength in any event.

    The other option would be Weapon Finesse/Agile Maneuvers for free, and that makes monk a great 1-level dip for rogues.

    Shillelagh applies to a quarterstaff. Quarterstaves are monk weapons. Quarterstaves that deal damage at +2 size categories are monk weapons that don't suck.

    At what level?

    Neo2151 wrote:
    2d6/x2 (Shillelagh'd Quarterstaff) actually is a weapon that still sucks. 2d6 is good for early levels, but there's a reason people put down their Greatswords and pick up a Falchion.

    So I can see this druid 1/monk 1 being seriously badass with a staff, if he gets a chance to buff it up, once a day. At higher levels, not so much. Without higher strength (making the attack bonus to wisdom less impressive) or threat ranges, the druid is hardly broken.

    On the flip side I can see a monk dipping a level of druid to take this option and have decent weapon until higher levels, and that's hardly broken.

    Atarlost wrote:
    Stat consolidation is not the answer. Fixing the equipment problem is the answer. Since Paizo has refused to even consider this the next best answer is weapon training.

    No, for a class whose main advantage is they are meant to be less equipment dependent, increasing the dependency is not really a fix. A lot of people don't like the Christmas Tree effect, adding to it doesn't help.

    Master Arminas - forgive me, but Intuitive Strike is the worst of both worlds. No immediate bonus, so you need either high strength or pay the feat-tax at low levels, then lose out by jacking up wisdom to make the most of it at high levels, or else ignore it completely which defeats the object.

    Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Another thought: a monk's ki points are a valuable commodity - and have some good uses for a given round. But most ki powers are single-round modifiers. Compare that to the magus' arcane points: many of those powers are meaningful for an entire encounter.

    Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Quote:
    Master Arminas - forgive me, but Intuitive Strike is the worst of both worlds. No immediate bonus, so you need either high strength or pay the feat-tax at low levels, then lose out by jacking up wisdom to make the most of it at high levels, or else ignore it completely which defeats the object.

    I disagree somewhat. At low levels there is not that much of a disparity in damage (or at least it doesn't matter that much). Adding Wisdom gradually is similar to having a specialized form of Weapon Training that increases every few levels.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    It' reasonable, but I can't see the devs really going for it: after all, it could add to a LOT at high level.


    It's pretty easy to see a Monk get their Wis up to a +9, starting with a 20pt buy.
    So I gotta agree with Dabbler here. Low level, it's just not good enough to actually change anything, and high level it could end up broken-good.

    Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    That can be controlled with the maximum bonus permissible. Compared to +6 to hit and damage (for a level 20 fighter with duelist gloves and weapon training 4) that isn't really too crazy.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Yes, but (I can't believe I am saying this) the devs do not want to make monks better than fighters at dealing damage. At level 20, +10 to hit and damage is too much on top of 2d10 base damage, +Str bonus, and enhancement as well.

    2d10+Str, bypassing DR and at +5 enhancement to hit with +5 of other properties on a flurry-of-blows is enough for the monk, if the hitting attribute can scale sufficiently with other other combat classes.

    If you want to give the monk weapon training, fine, but let it BE weapon training.

    Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Master Arminas only adds to attack, not to attack and damage.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Even to attack only, it's a lot, because you are stacking two scores together (Wisdom + Str or Dex). Replacing Str or Dex with Wis is one thing; adding Wis to Str or Dex is another.


    Perhaps it is just me, but even with a belt of physical perfection +6 and tomes and manuals for inherent bonuses (figured at 20th level no less!), I have never seen a monk with an ability score that managed to exceed 26. Of course, it may just be that the people who I DM for share my ideas concerning monks: that they need to be balanced.

    Since switching over to Pathfinder, most monks I have seen started out with the following (pre-racial) ability scores: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, and Cha 8 in a 20 point buy (Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, and Cha 10 in a 25 point buy).

    Most are either human, half-elf, or dwarf. People either put that human or half-elf into Dex or Wis, in my experience.

    So we are looking at Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8 for the 20 point build.

    Level up points are 2 in Dex, 2 in Str, and 1 in Con, giving Str 16, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8. Headband of inspired wisdom +6 and belt of physical perfection +6 makes that Str 22, Dex 22, Con 21, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 8.

    Starting at 18th level (because inherent bonuses are almost too costly before then), characters begin pumping up those scores even more. Most monks (in my experience) wind up having somewhere around +15 or so in inherent bonuses, assigning +2 to Str, +2 to Dex, +3 to Con, +4 to Int, +2 to Wis, and +2 to Cha (like I said, a balanced approach).

    Final ability scores top out at Str 24, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 16, Wis 24, Cha 10 [Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 10 in an anti-magic field].

    Total gold spent: 592,500 gp. Add monk's robes (13,000 gp), amulet of mighty fists +5 (125,000 gp), ring of protection +5 (50,000 gp), cloak of resistance +5 (25,000 gp), and bracers of armor +8 (64,000 gp) brings that up to 869,500 gp, leaving 10,500 gp left over.

    That gives the monk an AC of 43, somewhere around 234 hit points, and a flurry attack of +30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15 for 2d10+12 damage. All before feats. Adding Wisdom to attack (as above), would bring that flurry attack up to +37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22, still for 2d10+12. Adding weapon focus (unarmed) would increase that by 1 for +38/+38/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23. Critical range of 19-20/x2. Average damage is 23, 46 on a crit.

    Same level, a fighter will probably have a Str of 30 and have an attack bonus of +43/+38/+33/+28 (+10 Str, +5 Weapon, +6 weapon training/gloves of dueling, +2 feats), and he will be doing 1d10+25 with a bastard sword one-handed. Critical range of 17-20/x2, auto-confirmed. Average damage is 30.5, 61 on a crit.

    Sure, someone could shift six points of those inherent bonuses from Con, Int, and Cha, putting them in Str, Dex, and Wis, but you are looking at only another +3 at the most. You can't take them from Dex, or your AC will suffer. And in a game where the 'monk' starts out with an 18 or 20 Str AND a 16 or so Wis, and bumps up just those to the exclusion of everything else, it can be over the top. I have never seen anyone gimp everything else about a monk to do that, however.

    But maybe this is just me and my players, and our style of play.

    MA


    master arminas wrote:
    A bunch of good stuff

    I think the issue is that the developers not only have to balance for pointbuys but also for rolled stats. So even at the absolute tail end they need to worry about the guys playing 18 across the board monks.

    By adding wis to str or dex the monks with uber point buys or fantastic rolled stats will be broken.

    I think the weapon training for unarmed and monk weapons maybe the best thing for them.


    Gignere wrote:
    master arminas wrote:
    A bunch of good stuff

    I think the issue is that the developers not only have to balance for pointbuys but also for rolled stats. So even at the absolute tail end they need to worry about the guys playing 18 across the board monks.

    By adding wis to str or dex the monks with uber point buys or fantastic rolled stats will be broken.

    I think the weapon training for unarmed and monk weapons maybe the best thing for them.

    Nonsense. There will always be munchkins who show up with a character that they 'rolled' with a Str 18, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 18, and Cha 15 . . . on 3d6, no rerolls. "Honest to god, best rolls I've ever had!'

    I am not knocking you Gignere, but the game should be designed not around the extreme corner cases of what you get when someone pushes to the absolute limit: Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 7, Cha 7 human fighters should not be considered the 'norm' for 15-point games.

    The majority of gamers and groups, by far, use point-buy to avoid such nonsense (in my first paragraph). Rolling stats used to be part and parcel of the game, but I have played since 1986 and in all that time, I rolled up TWO characters that would have met the ability score requirements for a 1st edition monk. Heck, my very first character would not have been a monk, except my DM said that if my rolls were under what he needed, I could bump them up to the minimum.

    For the second, that requires on a having a DM who is man enough to say NO.

    Give monks weapon training and you are looking at them getting a +6 on attack rolls (after gloves of dueling) by 20th level AND another +6 on damage rolls (after gloves of dueling). Let's compare that to my Str+Wis build above:

    Str+Wis: Str 24, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 16, Wis 24, Cha 10. Flurry attacks of +37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22 for 2d10+12 (19-20/x2, after improved critical (unarmed strikes) that is). Average damage is 23, 46 on a crit. Non-flurry attacks are +34/+29/+24 for 2d10+12, same critical chance, same average damage.

    Weapon training: Str 24, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 16, Wis 24, Cha 10. Flurry attacks of +36/+36/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21 for 2d10+18 (19-20/x2, after improved critical (unarmed strikes) that is). Average damage is 29, 58 on a crit. Non-flurry attacks are +33/+28/+23 for 2d10+18, same average damage as with flurry.

    And the fighter from above? Str 30, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10 (spending 192,500 gp on inherent bonuses, 144,000 gp on belt of physical perfection +6, 200,000 gp on +10 weapon, 100,000 gp on +5 heavy fortification armor, 25,000 gp on +5 shield, 50,000 gp on +5 ring of protection, 25,000 gp on +5 cloak of resistance, 50,000 gp on +5 amulet of natural armor, and 15,000 gp on gloves of dueling; total spent 801,500 gp, leaving him 78,500 gp left). His attacks are +43/+38/+33/+28, dealing 1d10+25 with a bastard sword one-handed, with an auto-crit on 17-20/x2, dealing an average damage of 30.5, 61 on a crit. His AC by the way is 46 before feats, with saves of Fort +22, Ref +16, and Will +16 before feats. With an average of 215 hit points (up to 255 with toughness and favored class in HP).

    One point difference in the attack bonus, but a very BIG difference in the damage they deal with each hit. The weapon training monk is capable of dealing MORE average damage than the fighter, thanks to the greater number of attacks. And that is something we should avoid.

    MA


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    master arminas wrote:
    Perhaps it is just me, but even with a belt of physical perfection +6 and tomes and manuals for inherent bonuses (figured at 20th level no less!), I have never seen a monk with an ability score that managed to exceed 26. Of course, it may just be that the people who I DM for share my ideas concerning monks: that they need to be balanced.

    In theory, the max any stat can go to is 36, not 26. Use the theoretical max, not the anecdotal. Always assume the worst case scenario.

    master arminas wrote:

    Since switching over to Pathfinder, most monks I have seen started out with the following (pre-racial) ability scores: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, and Cha 8 in a 20 point buy (Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, and Cha 10 in a 25 point buy).

    Most are either human, half-elf, or dwarf. People either put that human or half-elf into Dex or Wis, in my experience.

    So we are looking at Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8 for the 20 point build.

    Hang on though, if wisdom is becoming more of a hinge stat, then anyone with half a brain will weight it more heavily. You cannot change things and assume the same distribution. My standard on 20 point buy given this is:

    Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8

    Take Weapon Finesse, and Assume +4 from books/tomes to two scores, +6 from belt of physical perfection, +6 headband of wisdom, then +4 between stats from level increases and you have:

    Str 16, Dex 28, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 30, Cha 8

    Then you get +9 from Dex, +10 from Wisdom for +19 to hit from stats alone...cap that, fighter.

    And that's at 20 points. What about fluke rolls or 25 points? Your absolute max would be around 29 in one score and 36 in the other; that's up to +22 to hit and AC there

    Edit: and to say that it's up to the DM to moderate rolled characters is a cop-out. I have seen players roll two 18's in one character which is all you need. If the DM needs to moderate something to stop it being broken, IT'S BROKEN and should never have been included in the first place.


    master arminas wrote:

    Give monks weapon training and you are looking at them getting a +6 on attack rolls (after gloves of dueling) by 20th level AND another +6 on damage rolls (after gloves of dueling). Let's compare that to my Str+Wis build above:

    Str+Wis: Str 24, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 16, Wis 24, Cha 10. Flurry attacks of +37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22 for 2d10+12 (19-20/x2, after improved critical (unarmed strikes) that is). Average damage is 23, 46 on a crit. Non-flurry attacks are...

    If they don't call it weapon training there will be no issue with the gloves.

    I think that will pretty much balance out.

    Also I don't disagree with you about designing around reasonable point buys, but unfortunately PF still supports stat rolling. So they need to worry about it.

    If they ban stat rolling, that would be a different thing but it isn't a step they have taken yet.


    Dabbler wrote:
    Atarlost wrote:
    A clean monk fix (reasonable pricing for AMF) would help druids, but wisdom to attack for a one level dip that also gets it to AC is a bit too much of an assist.
    The other option would be Weapon Finesse/Agile Maneuvers for free, and that makes monk a great 1-level dip for rogues.

    To discourage dipping just introduce such features at higher levels and/or couple them to ki and/or restrict them like the duelists bonus to half monk levels.


    Dabbler wrote:
    master arminas wrote:
    Perhaps it is just me, but even with a belt of physical perfection +6 and tomes and manuals for inherent bonuses (figured at 20th level no less!), I have never seen a monk with an ability score that managed to exceed 26. Of course, it may just be that the people who I DM for share my ideas concerning monks: that they need to be balanced.

    In theory, the max any stat can go to is 36, not 26. Use the theoretical max, not the anecdotal. Always assume the worst case scenario.

    master arminas wrote:

    Since switching over to Pathfinder, most monks I have seen started out with the following (pre-racial) ability scores: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, and Cha 8 in a 20 point buy (Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, and Cha 10 in a 25 point buy).

    Most are either human, half-elf, or dwarf. People either put that human or half-elf into Dex or Wis, in my experience.

    So we are looking at Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8 for the 20 point build.

    Hang on though, if wisdom is becoming more of a hinge stat, then anyone with half a brain will weight it more heavily. You cannot change things and assume the same distribution. My standard on 20 point buy given this is:

    Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8

    Take Weapon Finesse, and Assume +4 from books/tomes to two scores, +6 from belt of physical perfection, +6 headband of wisdom, then +4 between stats from level increases and you have:

    Str 16, Dex 28, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 30, Cha 8

    Then you get +9 from Dex, +10 from Wisdom for +19 to hit from stats alone...cap that, fighter.

    And that's at 20 points. What about fluke rolls or 25 points? Your absolute max would be around 29 in one score and 36 in the other; that's up to +22 to hit and AC there

    Edit: and to say that it's up to the DM to moderate rolled characters is a cop-out. I have seen players roll two 18's in one character which is all you need. If the DM needs to moderate rolled characters is a cop-out. I have seen players roll two 18's in one character which is all you need. If the DM needs to moderate something to stop it being broken, IT'S BROKEN and should never have been included in the first place.

    And you gave up Str, Con, and Int to do that. NOT exactly what I would call a balanced monk who is seeking physical and spiritual perfection, right? The old 1st edition monks had ability score requirements of Str 15, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 11, and Wis 15, if I am remembering correctly. For me, and for players in my group, even with weapon finesse, a monk with a Str 10 just isn't a monk.

    Your damage is also lower: 2d10+8 (+5 AoMF, +3 Str) for an average damage of 19, compared to 23. 38 vs. 46 on a critical hit. Yes, you gain +19 to hit from ability scores; my Str+Wis monk gains +14 from ability scores. The fighter is still ahead, +43 vs. the monk's +42. Yes, your greater number of attacks will make a difference, but the fighter has twice the critical threat range, auto-crits, and his average damage is 11.5 points higher than yours when he hits. Not counting the +5 worth of special abilities on his weapon, which could add MORE damage.

    Your AC went up, granted. But your hit points went DOWN. From 234 average on my example to 174 average on yours. You've got less skill points, and you can't qualify for the Greater [combat maneuver] feats with that Int of 10.

    You gave up a LOT to get that additional +5 bonus to hit, Dabbler. I don't consider the trade-off worth it, myself. Some might. I don't.

    Now, on rolled stats: there is no control or balance with rolled ability scores. Yes, you can have a character end up with two 18s starting off. You also might have a character wind up with a bunch of 11s, 12s, and 13s. You could end up with a character with 6s, 8s, 10s, and a 15 as your highest ability score. It happens.

    The problem is, ever since 3.0, the game itself has moved away from rolled ability scores. The potential negatives of low scores is far greater than in previous editions. In 1st and 2nd, if you had a score ranging from 7-14, there were no bonus or penalty attached. That changed in 3.0 and the following editions, with the bonuses starting at 12 and the penalties beginning at 9.

    We started 3.0 with rolling, and very quickly we switched over to point buy. Because it starts everyone on the near level playing field, it allows you to make a character for a specific class, and you can avoid having penalties if you choose to. It is not perfect, nothing is, and single attribute characters can game the system far more than multiple attribute characters.

    But once again, that is what DMs are for. To establish the rules of your local game and run it so that everyone has an enjoyable time.

    MA


    Dabbler wrote:
    Atarlost wrote:
    Stat consolidation is not the answer. Fixing the equipment problem is the answer. Since Paizo has refused to even consider this the next best answer is weapon training.
    No, for a class whose main advantage is they are meant to be less equipment dependent, increasing the dependency is not really a fix. A lot of people don't like the Christmas Tree effect, adding to it doesn't help.

    You can't attack the Christmas Tree Effect on a single class. You're screwing over simulationist tables and fair wealth distribution tables. Suddenly your four person party is splitting the wealth 3.5 ways because the monk doesn't need to budget for enhancement to weapons or armor. Either that or the monk's budget lets the party have far more consumables than normal.

    The monk needs to be on the same expense curve as other classes. Not a higher curve as now nor a lower curve as you advocate. The same curve. Anything else is fighting against the basic game paradigm rather than working with it.

    If the CTE is a problem it needs to be attacked at the deepest level, rewriting either the bestiaries or table 3-1, changing the base save progressions, severely culling the magic item lists, and abolishing the concept of WBL. This is new edition territory, not quick monk fix or even monk overhaul territory.

    301 to 350 of 1,235 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>
    Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / General Discussion / If Monks have trouble hitting... All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.

    ©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.