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If Monks have trouble hitting...


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Starbuck_II wrote:

You aren't a full strength based Monk (low Wis/dex)?

You could buy up to 20 Str, +4 Str item, potion Magic fang (cheaper till you buy Aomf +2), +1 WF -2 flurry +1 boots of Speed+10 BAB =18 hit, that leaves +6 that I'm not sure where he has.

I am strength based, but not to the exclusion of everything else. 16 str, 13 dex, 14 con, 16 wis, with a headband of wisdom and a belt of physical might +2 (str/dex).

So, yeah, I acknowledge that I could boost my to-hit by 3 or so if I'd made different choices at creation, or if I'd been able to get just the right magic items. Still quite a bit of difference to cover, as you pointed out.

The number differences we're seeing here do illustrate why the magus might have less of a trouble hitting than the monk. The rogue has sorta been answered too (they're just as hamstrung but nobody in the forums expects them to really hit...those experiences definately reflect what happens at our gaming table).


Zilvar2k11 wrote:
The equalizer wrote:
Monks have trouble hitting? They would against opponents whose AC is through the roof. But what is the AC they are trying to hit, regardless of whether its the monk or magus? Level 10 monk sitting on a +24 to hit, averaging 29 damage per hit, 33 vs a creature with DR. Rogue is sitting on +25, averaging 25 damage a hit. Unless the party is constantly running into creatures with an AC of 40 and saves of at least +20. In such games, have seen players just laugh, told the DM to go f@#~ themselves and quietly leave the game.

How are you getting a +24 to hit at level 10 with an unarmed monk? That's something like 8 points ahead of the level 11 monk I've been playing for the last few months.

Let's see.. at level 10 I had a +14 to hit with my highest flurry attacks.
10 + 4 (str) + 1 (aomf) + 1 (weapon focus) -2 (flurry penalty)

I can't see more than another +2 from stat boosters and a more expensive aomf, so yeah. Where'd that other +8 to hit come from?

More importantly, where is the average 29 dmg a hit comming from? Lets say the level 10 monk has a +5 AoMF and a STR of 24... At level 10 you do 1d10 with your fists, averaging 5.5, +7 STR per hit, and +5 from the AoMF... That's only 17.5 a hit. Even with dragon style, boosing it to 1.5 str mod, that's only 20.5. And this is assuming some massive boosts and leways, and still the monk is no where near 29 dmg a hit. :/


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:
Do most GMs really just stop using classed humanoids at higher levels?

No, but they do get rarer. The monk is great when they encounter them, but a class that can only dream of contributing with half the encounters is still a class with problems.

The equalizer wrote:
Monks have trouble hitting? They would against opponents whose AC is through the roof. But what is the AC they are trying to hit, regardless of whether its the monk or magus? Level 10 monk sitting on a +24 to hit, averaging 29 damage per hit, 33 vs a creature with DR. Rogue is sitting on +25, averaging 25 damage a hit. Unless the party is constantly running into creatures with an AC of 40 and saves of at least +20. In such games, have seen players just laugh, told the DM to go f++* themselves and quietly leave the game.

Build, please - because knowing you, this relies on a dozen feats and abilities taken from 3.5 or 3rd party sources. My monk at level 10 can only get together +14 on a flurry - thanks to poor gear, he has no AoMF, and no monk's robe, but he does have a decent AC.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

+14 at level 10? 8 from Flurry, 5-6 strength/dex, +1 weapon focus? I'm sitting at +17 at 10th level, and that's just starting at 16 strength post-racial mods and with weapon focus. Poor gear sucks :(

At least you're hitting half the time. Hope he gets another +1 somewhere before next level!

(and the equalizer's numbers do seem off a bit)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've never seen a monk have issue with hitting. The damage is low though and their defense are minimal so that hurts them. At higher level their damage output increases but never gets like the fighter nor should it. Their AC also get a lot better and they usually have crane wing by then.

Rogues are the opposite problem. They can start with with a great AC and hit fairly well due to flanking. But at the higher levels their has AC peaked and they are struggle to hit. Damage out is good but they can't land a sneak attack with iterative attacks. But if they get lucky they tend to do good damage but that get more rare the higher level you get.

The magus sucks at hitting too but they don't need to hit with their sword that's just gravy when it does. It's that touch attacks works all the time. If they buff their sword starts working better too. With Bard in the group the Magus gets quite tough. Frigid Touch for example and sword attack that hits is nice.

I saw a game with Bard, Monk, Rogue, Magus and Cleric. The monk, rogue and magus were awesome in that game because the Bard and Cleric buffed them up. At level 7 this group took down a Great Cyclops in 2 rounds with out taking any damage. I was the bard in that group.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

voska66: just as a clarification, sneak attacks work just fine on iteratives, assuming they're getting them from flanking or improved invisibility (or similar thing) and that isn't house-ruled away.


Cheapy wrote:
voska66: just as a clarification, sneak attacks work just fine on iteratives, assuming they're getting them from flanking or improved invisibility (or similar thing) and that isn't house-ruled away.

Yeah, it's the reason TWF for rogues is justified; to make the most of their Sneak Damage.


Cheapy wrote:
voska66: just as a clarification, sneak attacks work just fine on iteratives, assuming they're getting them from flanking or improved invisibility (or similar thing) and that isn't house-ruled away.

I think he might be saying that the chances of landing any of the iteratives are low, not that you're only allowed one sneak attack per round.


Killsmith wrote:
I think he might be saying that the chances of landing any of the iteratives are low, not that you're only allowed one sneak attack per round.

True, but the same could be said of most of the extra attacks granted by higher BAB. Keeping in mind that TWF doubles the sheer number of them, which grants a higher chance for 20 and automatic hits... Which isn't a bad thing, short of house rules for greater penalties for 1's which are equally high potentialy offsetting that.

That said, I still don't go past normal TWF simply because the penalties do stack up, and unless I'm getting TWF feats for free(bonuses) I would rather spend those feats elsewhere.


Gorbacz wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

If monks have trouble hitting, we should stop and consider if the AC is too damn high.

Come back to 3.5, ssssssssssssss.

News flash: in 3.5, Monk flurry was worse, and monster ACs were pretty much the same.

More updates on what actually was in 3.5 and what is rose-tinted vision at eleven, courtesy of your favourite Snarky Bag With Teeth. Stay tuned!

Nope, you are wrong on the AC, you are not considering the removal of weaknesses by the new pathfinder monsters. I've been comparing 3.5 to pathfinder monsters over a number of months. One of the few path monsters that is actually weaker is the roc, so there is something for you. What you get though, in pf, is an increase in ability scores, saves and ac of monsters. 3.5, a lot had weaknesses, clear weaknesses that could be exploited. A save would be weak, or ac would be low and hp high. DR was a bit less common.

Now with pathfinder once you start getting into some mid-range crs, weaknesses are hard to find. Stats are high all round and ac creeps ever more upward. What am I talking about?

Sinspawn ac 19, cr 2, all saves good, will +4, SR 11 and immune to mind-effects. Sandpoint devil, ac 21, cr 8, over 100 hp, all saves are good, sr 14, dr 5/cold iron, bays, breath weapon, spells, every ability score that isn't int, is above 15. Avorial, a bird with ac 25, cr 9, good saves, especially against poison except will, but sitting on SR 20, immunities and resistances, its lowest ability score is a 15. Shield archon, ac 28, cr 10, no weaknesses, two immunities, sr 21, lowest ability score is a 14, a giant tower creature, still has a reflex of +7. Demon kalavakus, ac 25, cr 10, dr, immunities, resists, sr. Gug, ac 24, cr 10, good saves except for reflex, massive hp, two immunities. Hound of tindalos, ac 20, cr 7, no weak saves, immunities, lowest ability score is a 16. Jyoti, ac 24, cr 9, strong saves all round, four immunities, five resistances, sr 20, lowest stat is a 12.

The numbers are very high for almost all round, for whatever paizo makes that has a middlish cr. The low cr stuff I like, the borrowed 3.5 monsters with some changes, also good! It gets boring though, these lack of weaknesses and common high acs.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
voska66 wrote:
I've never seen a monk have issue with hitting. The damage is low though and their defense are minimal so that hurts them. At higher level their damage output increases but never gets like the fighter nor should it. Their AC also get a lot better and they usually have crane wing by then.

AC is never something monks have had to complain about unless they dump dex and wis for strength. The rising damage dice don't even come close to matching the fighter's static bonuses, but it's DR and low odds to hit that really cripple him.

voska66 wrote:
Rogues are the opposite problem. They can start with with a great AC and hit fairly well due to flanking. But at the higher levels their has AC peaked and they are struggle to hit. Damage out is good but they can't land a sneak attack with iterative attacks. But if they get lucky they tend to do good damage but that get more rare the higher level you get.

Agreed, rogues do struggle at these levels to stay in the game. Still when they do hit, the enemy feel it.

voska66 wrote:
The magus sucks at hitting too but they don't need to hit with their sword that's just gravy when it does. It's that touch attacks works all the time. If they buff their sword starts working better too. With Bard in the group the Magus gets quite tough. Frigid Touch for example and sword attack that hits is nice.

Actually, our party magus has kept up with the full BAB classes pretty well in both hits and damage - but then he has the advantage of self-buffing.

Cheapy wrote:

+14 at level 10? 8 from Flurry, 5-6 strength/dex, +1 weapon focus? I'm sitting at +17 at 10th level, and that's just starting at 16 strength post-racial mods and with weapon focus. Poor gear sucks :(

At least you're hitting half the time. Hope he gets another +1 somewhere before next level!

He didn't, we just hit 11th level. No amulet of mighty fists, no monk's robe, just a +2 Belt of Dexterity (to 23) and that's all she wrote to help me hit - AC is 28, which is reasonable at least.

We are basically having to make do largely with what we can make in limited downtime and what we find and guess what? We didn't find much a monk can use. The party paladin just hauled in a nice suit of Celestial plate armour, the oracle a rod of splendour, the magus an scarab of protection, my monk got the booby price, a lantern of revealing. The only character doing worse equipment-wise is the ranger, and even he has a +2 composite longbow.

Of this evening's combats, my monk landed two hits. The first was against a mercenary devil, which used greater invisibility and it's flight to keep mobile and used a lot of spells/SLAs to hit the party. Some sucky rolls didn't help, but for the entire combat my monk's sole contribution was in the final round to flank with the paladin and provide a +2 bonus. A nasty debuff left me on 1d10-1 damage, and with no means of passing DR (and it having a great AC) I had no chance. It couldn't be disarmed, was flying, so the only maneuver left was grappling, which failed.

Second fight was against a greater wraith, I managed to score two hits with a ghost touch kama I had, and rolled snake-eyes for damage. Thankfully on this occasion we could all see it, and I was able to get behind it to provide flanking to the paladin and magus.

This is really underlining to me how equipment dependent the monk is - and how dependent on specialist equipment, too.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I tried to read that last post from Loyalist I really did...but did you really need to jumble all the information like it came from out of a shredder?


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

If monks have trouble hitting, we should stop and consider if the AC is too damn high.

Come back to 3.5, ssssssssssssss.

News flash: in 3.5, Monk flurry was worse, and monster ACs were pretty much the same.

More updates on what actually was in 3.5 and what is rose-tinted vision at eleven, courtesy of your favourite Snarky Bag With Teeth. Stay tuned!

Nope, you are wrong on the AC, you are not considering the removal of weaknesses by the new pathfinder monsters. I've been comparing 3.5 to pathfinder monsters over a number of months. One of the few path monsters that is actually weaker is the roc, so there is something for you. What you get though, in pf, is an increase in ability scores, saves and ac of monsters. 3.5, a lot had weaknesses, clear weaknesses that could be exploited. A save would be weak, or ac would be low and hp high. DR was a bit less common.

Now with pathfinder once you start getting into some mid-range crs, weaknesses are hard to find. Stats are high all round and ac creeps ever more upward. What am I talking about?

Sinspawn ac 19, cr 2, all saves good, will +4, SR 11 and immune to mind-effects. Sandpoint devil, ac 21, cr 8, over 100 hp, all saves are good, sr 14, dr 5/cold iron, bays, breath weapon, spells, every ability score that isn't int, is above 15. Avorial, a bird with ac 25, cr 9, good saves, especially against poison except will, but sitting on SR 20, immunities and resistances, its lowest ability score is a 15. Shield archon, ac 28, cr 10, no weaknesses, two immunities, sr 21, lowest ability score is a 14, a giant tower creature, still has a reflex of +7. Demon kalavakus, ac 25, cr 10, dr, immunities, resists, sr. Gug, ac 24, cr 10, good saves except for reflex, massive hp, two immunities. Hound of tindalos, ac 20, cr 7, no weak saves, immunities, lowest ability score is a 16. Jyoti, ac 24, cr 9, strong saves all round, four immunities, five resistances, sr 20, lowest stat is a 12.

The numbers are very high...

Those monsters are the exception, not the rule. Just like there is a CR 6(?) construct that has a high to-hit. I think it is a +20 or 21.

I do agree that overall PF monsters are tougher than the 3.5 counterparts, but that is not a secret.


And I am glad when people like you wraith, are honest.
Good guy wraithstrike.

For havoc.

Sinspawn ac 19, cr 2, all saves good, will +4, SR 11 and immune to mind-effects.

Sandpoint devil, ac 21, cr 8, over 100 hp, all saves are good, sr 14, dr 5/cold iron, bays, breath weapon, spells, every ability score that isn't int, is above 15.

Avorial, a bird with ac 25, cr 9, good saves, especially against poison except will, but sitting on SR 20, immunities and resistances, its lowest ability score is a 15.

Shield archon, ac 28, cr 10, no weaknesses, two immunities, sr 21, lowest ability score is a 14, a giant tower creature, still has a reflex of +7.

Demon kalavakus, ac 25, cr 10, dr, immunities, resists, sr.

Gug, ac 24, cr 10, good saves except for reflex, massive hp, two immunities.

Hound of tindalos, ac 20, cr 7, no weak saves, immunities, lowest ability score is a 16. Jyoti, ac 24, cr 9, strong saves all round, four immunities, five resistances, sr 20, lowest stat is a 12.


Thanks for the reformatting. :)
I knew what you point was in your last post, but it was harder to read.


Neo2151 wrote:

Then how does a Magus or Rogue hit? Legitimate question, btw.

This question has been bugging me for a while, what with all the "Monks are bad" threads we see popping up all the time.

If I can ignore balance for a second, I have to say that, just as a concept, it really bugs me that a level 10 figher who has spent his entire career training on the longsword decides to punch you in the face, he'll hit you more often then a monk. Yeah, monk punches harder, but just from a concept point of view, why don't they get a full BAB?

I don't mind monks with no armor and bare fists doing less damage and being easier to score a hit on then a fighter with a sword and armor; that just makes sense. But why should they miss more often?

Even a monk with a full BAB (or maybe just a full BAB for all unarmed attacks) wouldn't be all that strong; I just don't understand why they stuck this weakness on the monk. It doesn't seem to fit, either conceptually or in practice.

As for your question; both the magus and the rogue do miss a lot. Both characters are sort of a high risk/high reward setup. The TWF rouge misses a lot, but if he sneak attacks you and hits you take a ton of damage. The magus misses a lot, but if he hits you with his sword and shocking graps you through his sword at the same time, you take a lot of damage. It usually averages out well for the magus (until he runs out of spells), not as great for the rogue, but either way it fits the character concept well.


Because of balance, they get far more special abilities and bonuses across different things compared to the fighter: saves, skills, that they don't have the points left, if you will, to be d10 with the best bab.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Because of balance, they get far more special abilities and bonuses across different things compared to the fighter: saves, skills, that they don't have the points left, if you will, to be d10 with the best bab.

Well, that would be a reasonable argument if you think that fighter and monk are currently well balanced.


I don't think a monk should outdamage a fighter, but he should outdamage a fighter using unarmed attacks. Right now it is fairly close. I think I had it to be within a few(less than 5) DPR at one time.

But even with that aside class feature synergy seem to be the main issue, but that is for another thread.

If a monk is dedicated to damage he can do respectable damage if the enemy does not have DR, but if he focuses on damage he is lacking elsewhere. Taking some of the MAD away will help for 15 point buy games.


I agree a rogue can do more damage against a human and most beast but has anyone ever tried too sneak attack a plant or elemental or even a golem and lets not forget about armor that negates sneak attack sometimes. How often does a monk have too worry about taking a attack of opportunity so he can set up a flank.


The monk has to take the same chance to get into melee whether he is setting up a flank or not, and the number of monsters immune to sneak attack is pretty small, and so are the chances of coming across fornication armor, and even that is not 100% anymore.


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Fornication armor sounds fun..


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Sarrion wrote:
Fornication armor sounds fun..

It's in Ultimate Soap Opera.

But on the subject of monks, let's look at these abilities that prevent them from having d10 HD.

Level 1 looks good.

Level 2 you get a bonus feat and something that 25k as a ring. Not horrible.

Level 3 you get a limited saving throw bonus that is less valuable stacked on an already high save driven by one of the monk's primary stats than it would be on something with a lower will save. This is probably overvalued. Fast movement is an enhancement bonus. Probably okay for now, but not in the long run. Maneuver Training would be subsumed in going to d10/full BAB so this level is pretty lame.

Level 4 ki pool. Slow fall is weaker than a 2200 gp ring and a spontaneous caster in a campaign where it might be useful will take the spell pretty soon as first level spells lose their luster.

Level 5 you get high jump, which is only useful if your GM likes crevasses since it still doesn't give useful altitude. Wizards are casting Fly. Purity of Body is nice in a party of nothing but monks and paladins, but in a real party you're stopping so the healer can treat everyone else's disease.

Level 6 slow fall increases. If it weren't for the bonus feat this level would be completely dead.

Level 7 you get a self heal using two points of scarce ki that's weaker than a potion of cure moderate until level 12 and doesn't surpass a potion of cure serious until level 19. Fail.

Level 8 slow fall increases. Dead level.

Level 9 improved evasion. Only good if you're failing saves, but might have some value for a strength based monk. It's not too good for full BAB since rangers get it.

Level 10 you get to bypass an extremely rare DR and your slow fall increases. Again, the bonus feat is the only thing happening this level that's worth writing down.

Level 11 you're immune to poison, but like purity of body you're going to be held back by the party. On the bright side the poison immunity party can also have druids.

Level 12 you get abundant step, which is a pretty cool ability. Except you can't act after using it and can't take anyone with you. You can run away, which seems to be a theme, but it's a little less than useful offensively without a feat chain out of UC. Your fast movement bonus finally surpasses what you're probably getting every combat from Haste or Blessing of Fervor.

Level 13 you get spell resistance. You now need to blow a standard action to receive buffs and heals. FAIL deserves all caps for this one.

Level 14 more slow fall. Yawn. You get another prereq free bonus feat though. Just like the full BAB d10 HD ranger.

Level 15 you get a death attack with a fortitude save. Too bad nearly everything you might want to kill with it has a high fort save and size bonus inflated constitution. Still, it's on a par with similar spells.

Level 16 you can beat a DR that everyone using weapons has been laughing at for ages and slow fall increases.

Level 17 you stop getting aging penalties. When was the last time your age penalties increased during a campaign? You also get continuous tongues. But your charisma sucks and you have no social class skills. Dead level.

Level 18 more slow fall and a bonus feat. All these bonus feats the d10 HD full BAB ranger has been getting at the same levels.

Level 19 you can become ethereal. Alone. If you need to go to the ethereal plane at level 19 have the wizard or sorcerer cast the spell and bring the whole party. I guess this is okay if you're a seventh party member. Yeah, fail.

Level 20 slow fall can cover any distance. It's still weaker than a first level spell. You get a DR that might be okay. And you're immune to some buffs including the ever popular Enlarge Person. Even the capstone is a double edged sword.

The monk can stand to lose pretty much everything but flurry and the bonus feats and hardly notice. If you wouldn't notice losing them they're not worth denying full BAB and a d10 HD for.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have to admit, Atarlost sums it up pretty good. He leaves out that most of the monk's special abilities are easily duplicated by a spell or item, but otherwise...yeah. Not saying that I would want some of the monk's special abilities to be gone, but many of them are not worth a feat. Some that in particular are bad are:

Still Mind - this used to be anything mind-affecting, whatever the source. Why is it charm spells all of a sudden?

Ki Pool - not enough ki. If this is supposed to be the monk's rage/bardic performance/arcane pool, it's nowhere near big enough and costs way too much for many abilities.

Slow Fall - can't this just be 10' per level and forget about listing it? Oh yes, if we did that, we'd have dead levels.

Wholeness of Body - there are three problems with this:
1 - it costs too much ki.
2 - it takes too long to be useful in combat, and anyway action economy means the monk will be concentrating on not getting hurt rather than healing up. Out of combat you will save your ki and drink a potion.
3 - it heals too little. Really a few hit points is less than a potion can manage. If it could repair ability drain or negative levels, it would be worth it.

Abundant Step - how many other classes have a feat-tax on an ability in order to make it work as intended? NONE. It needs to come with the feats included, or never need them in the first place.

Diamond Soul - so you have a class which can barely function unless it's buffed and you make it harder to buff them. Needs fixing, eliminating, whatever but it needs SOMETHING. Why not make it useful and follow a thread with immunity to curses or death effects or ability drain?

Tongue of the Sun and the Moon - OK, why is a class so disinterested in talking to people that is has no social skills including Linguistics suddenly able to talk to anyone?

Empty Body - would be worth it if it came earlier and was a swift action.

I have to say that for all these bugs, the thing that really gets the monk down still is ability to hit and ability to get through DR. It's a combat class, the first thing it should be able to do is fight.


Atarlost wrote:
Level 15 you get a death attack with a fortitude save. Too bad nearly everything you might want to kill with it has a high fort save and size bonus inflated constitution. Still, it's on a par with similar spells.

I agree with all yuour points except maybe this one. It is true that it is hard to kill a standar monster but this ability works great against wizards,withcs,bards,rogues,ninjas,sorceres and oracles, so i think is slightly better taht you say. But still it does not compensate those levels of slow fall u.u


Nicos wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Level 15 you get a death attack with a fortitude save. Too bad nearly everything you might want to kill with it has a high fort save and size bonus inflated constitution. Still, it's on a par with similar spells.
I agree with all yuour points except maybe this one. It is true that it is hard to kill a standard monster but this ability works great against wizards,withcs,bards,rogues,ninjas,sorceres and oracles, so i think is slightly better taht you say. But still it does not compensate those levels of slow fall u.u

I'll definitely stand by this ability. There are still tons of classes out there who inherently don't have good fort saves and as most monks pump WIS, the DC for this can be a real challenge for those classes. Literally one shotting a Wizard is a pretty cool ability, granted the wizard can have a lot more than just one use of this per a day(as they can prep loads more save or die spells) while monks only get 1, but this is still cool and useful. Also, not the once a week ability it was in 3.5 so, again, not bad.

Now am I the only one whom feels we're getting a bit off topic? Wasn't this supposed to be about Bard, Rougues, and Magi and how they don't/do suffer the problems of the monk? :/


The magus can hit because of his arcane accuracy and buffing his weapon using the arcane pool. The rogue, well i'm not too sure how the rogue hits, he can purchase slightly better weapons and is not spreading his stats out quite as thin. Really he might have a bonus 10% chance over the monk of hitting, if you make a ranged rogue, he can get a little bit more from pointblank shot and some magic items. Bards get buffs that they can share with the party and they have archetypes that focus on hitting.

Depending on the party set up I would recommend the monk taking gang up, but that's an investment of two feats and three stat points to get a +2 in flanking circumstances.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The magus self-buffs, the bard everyone-buffs, only the rogue alone doesn't hit better than the monk (probably about as well on average), but when he hits it really counts with those sneak attack dice.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Sarrion wrote:

The magus can hit because of his arcane accuracy and buffing his weapon using the arcane pool. The rogue, well i'm not too sure how the rogue hits, he can purchase slightly better weapons and is not spreading his stats out quite as thin. Really he might have a bonus 10% chance over the monk of hitting, if you make a ranged rogue, he can get a little bit more from pointblank shot and some magic items. Bards get buffs that they can share with the party and they have archetypes that focus on hitting.

Depending on the party set up I would recommend the monk taking gang up, but that's an investment of two feats and three stat points to get a +2 in flanking circumstances.

I'd say the rogue is probably closer to 15-20% ahead of the monk on the to-hit spread. His ability to focus on two stats (Dex and either Int or Cha depending on what skills you're focusing on) allows him to pump his stats more, making it more likely you've got an 18 or higher in your primary hitting stat. A monk (especially in a 20 point buy or less game which covers PFS and a lot of other playstyles) will probably be looking at 15's in WIS, DEX, and STR, and he'll have to take a hit in one of his other stats just to get those 15's. He'll still need CON since he's looking at a 14 AC right now (16 if he dumps another stat and pumps either Dex or Wis and has a racial bonus), meaning he's just nudging up against the other melee characters AC's.

So you're looking at the rogue having a +1 - +2 lead to hit off stats. Count in the fact that the rogue can assign all of his ability increases to Dex and the fact that the monks Amulet of Mighty Fists is always going to be (until nearly 17th level), at best, +1 behind the other party members weapon bonuses, and our rogue is looking at a good +4 to hit over the monk, more if he uses his rogue talents to boost his combat capabilities and even more beyond that if he goes the ranged route (though this might impact his ability to trigger Sneak Attack.
The Magus' shares most of the same advantages as the rogue, plus the ability to buff and apply temporary enchants to further boost his accuracy and damage.

And the bard rocks them all, by being as good a skill monkey as the rogue, having a fantastic spell list, and having some of the best party buffs (which he benefits from as well!) in the game.


Dabbler wrote:
The magus self-buffs, the bard everyone-buffs, only the rogue alone doesn't hit better than the monk (probably about as well on average), but when he hits it really counts with those sneak attack dice.

A Dex-based Rogue with weapon finesse and one (or even two) agile weapons can get a higher attack bonus than the monk, if only because he just needs Dex and Con. He still shouldn't dump the other stats, but 10 or 12 is more than enough for the rest.

MA


Dabbler wrote:
voska66 wrote:
We didn't find much a monk can use. The party paladin just hauled in a nice suit of Celestial plate armour, the oracle a rod of splendour, the magus an scarab of protection, my monk got the booby price, a lantern of revealing.

The scarab of protection would have been as nice for the monk as for the magus, so why did he get it? Especially as you seem to have been getting less than the others so far?

Actually, the lantern of revealing probably has been rather useful against that invisible devil, especially as the monk probably was the only one with a free hand to carry it during the fight without compromising his AC or giving up his flanking bonus?


Atarlost wrote:
Level 8 slow fall increases. Dead level.

I don't agree with most of them, but I will just pick this as it was the first jumping at me.

My monk is actually looking forward to that level (actually he is currently looking forward to level 6 :-). Why? One additional attack. More damage. Better AC. And better saves (remember: that's three better saves, not just one or two, so let's not forget that).

And while rangers get improved evasion, too, they get it at 16th level. Meh. Most campaigns last that long.

etc. etc.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
We didn't find much a monk can use. The party paladin just hauled in a nice suit of Celestial plate armour, the oracle a rod of splendour, the magus an scarab of protection, my monk got the booby prize, a lantern of revealing.

The scarab of protection would have been as nice for the monk as for the magus, so why did he get it? Especially as you seem to have been getting less than the others so far?

Actually, the lantern of revealing probably has been rather useful against that invisible devil, especially as the monk probably was the only one with a free hand to carry it during the fight without compromising his AC or giving up his flanking bonus?

Yes, shame we found it in the invisible devil's loot, really, or it would have been very handy. The reason the magus got the scarab is that we all got a boon a while back for this stage of the adventure: most took the option of an undead-bane effect on their major weapon; the oracle took ghost-touch armour instead, and I opted for resistance against death effects - which is why he got dibs on the scarab. That's OK though, as he's got Craft Wondrous Item, he's making my AoMF in the near future!

Ssalarn wrote:
I'd say the rogue is probably closer to 15-20% ahead of the monk on the to-hit spread.

Until you factor in the monk's effective full BAB on FoB, which does make a slight difference.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

I'd say the rogue is probably closer to 15-20% ahead of the monk on the to-hit spread.
Until you factor in the monk's effective full BAB on FoB, which does make a slight difference.

That's correct. A monk who has enemies polite enough to stand still for him so he can full attack will be back on par with the rogue (maybe even slightly ahead).


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

I'd say the rogue is probably closer to 15-20% ahead of the monk on the to-hit spread.
Until you factor in the monk's effective full BAB on FoB, which does make a slight difference.
That's correct. A monk who has enemies polite enough to stand still for him so he can full attack will be back on par with the rogue (maybe even slightly ahead).

Why wouldn't they? it's not like the monk's going to hit them <rimshot!>

Andoran

To be clear on what the perception I have is

Defensively the monk is good bordering on great. The d8 is a complete non-issue when you consider all of the other defensive advantages it gets.

Damage dealt when they hit is fine, as although it is below most other martial classes per hit, they can potentially stun on single attacks and flurry on multiple attacks. This brings them basically on low par with the other classes when they hit.

The problem is...they can't hit at the same rate as any other 3/4 or higher class.

Why

The Magus listed, in addition to the fact they they have spells that boost attack or attack against touch AC, also can buy weapons at less than half the price of an AOMF that doesn't take up a slot.

They can buy two weapons of the same attack and damage as an AOMF and still have money left over (as well as a slot)

And again, they can self buff with spells or just use spells that go after touch. So can Clerics and Druids. Hell an Inquisitor can self buff and use special abilities such as judgements and bane.

Rogues can't self buff, but they do much, much more damage with sneak attack. And they can focus completely on a single stat (dex) that adds to attack bonus.

So I hope they don't mess with the defense (it is fine)

And I hope they don't bump the damage up per hit (it is fine)

But they do need to bump the ability to hit.


How did I solve this problem? A new weapon for the Monk in my group. A weapon called "Fist Wraps" that did no damage but could be enchanted as a normal weapon with whatever enchantments he desired. The monk still count as unarmed, used his unarmed progression, etc etc. And then could add on different things to bypass different types of DR so he could "golf bag" with different fist wraps


Dabbler wrote:
Yes, shame we found it in the invisible devil's loot, really

I had been afraid you would say that... :-)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Yes, shame we found it in the invisible devil's loot, really
I had been afraid you would say that... :-)

Well for all the good he did in the fight, he could have searched for it, found it and used it while everyone else fought the devil and still contributed more.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Atarlost wrote:
[monk class breakdown]

Great breakdown of the monk class, Atarlost.

It becomes even more telling when you compare the monk to the paladin:

Monk vs. Paladin:
monk chassis: three good saves, 4 skill ranks
paladin chassis: two good saves (the important ones), 2 skill ranks
Advantage: monk (on 1st level), evening out when the paladin gains divine grace on 2nd-level

1st-level monk: AC bonus, unarmed strike
1st-level paladin: heavy armor, martial weapons
Advantage: paladin (on 1st level), evening out as the monk's AC and unarmed damage scale with level

1st-level monk: bonus feat, flurry of blows, stunning fist
1st-level paladin: detect evil, smite evil
Draw.

2nd-level monk: bonus feat, evasion
2nd-level paladin: divine grace, lay on hands
Advantage: paladin

3rd-level monk: fast movement, still mind (maneuver master would be subsumed by a full BAB)
3rd-level paladin: aura of courage, divine health, mercy
Advantage: paladin

4th-level monk: ki pool, ki strike, slow fall
4th-level paladin: channel positive energy, martial weapon proficiency, 1st-level spells
Advantage: paladin

5th-level monk: high jump, purity of body
5th-level monk: divine bond, got divine health two levels ago
Advantage: paladin

6th-level monk: bonus feat
6th-level paladin: mercy
Draw.

7th-level monk: wholeness of body
7th-level paladin: got lay on hands five levels ago, 2nd-level spells
Advantage: paladin

8th-level monk: slow fall gets "better"
8th-level paladin: aura of resolve
Advantage: paladin

9th-level monk: improved evasion to prevent incoming damage
9th-level paladin: got lay on hands to swift heal incoming damage seven levels ago, mercy
Advantage: paladin

10th-level monk: bonus feat, fists count as lawful
10th-level paladin: 3rd-level spells, martial weapon proficiency
Draw.

11th-level monk: immune to poison
11th-level paladin: shares smite bonuses with allies
Draw?

12th-level monk: abundant step
12th-level paladin: mercy, already casting spells one level short of dimension door
Draw.

13th-level monk: resistance to buff spells and healing
13th-level paladin: 4th-level buff spells and healing
Advantage: paladin

14th-level monk: bonus feat
14th-level paladin: attacks count as good-aligned, allies attacks count as good-aligned
Advantage: paladin

15th-level monk: quivering palm
15th-level paladin: mercy
Advantage: monk (believe it or not)

16th-level monk: fists count as adamantine
16th-level paladin: proficient with adamantine weapons
Draw.

17th-level monk: immune to aging, tongue of the sun and moon
17th-level paladin: immune to compulsion effects, bonus to allies agianst compulsion effects
Advantage: paladin

18th-level monk: bonus feat
18th-level paladin: mercy
Draw.

19th-level monk: empty body
19th-level paladin: exist ability gets more uses
Advantage: monk (believe it or not)

20th-level monk: perfect self
20th-level paladin: holy champion
Draw.


Overall, the monk's better Reflex saves and skills are balanced by the paladin's better Fortitude saves and Will saves. The paladin class features are consistently superior, but let's assume that those are offset by the paladin's stringent code of behavior. So a monk with a d10 Hit Die and a full BAB would be about as powerful as a standard paladin.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:
Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Yes, shame we found it in the invisible devil's loot, really
I had been afraid you would say that... :-)
Well for all the good he did in the fight, he could have searched for it, found it and used it while everyone else fought the devil and still contributed more.

We had this happen once. We were fighting an ancient red dragon that the monk could not hit, but who also could not hit the monk with any of its attacks, so the monk spent his turns searching the dragon's horde for items that might help in the fight while using Improved Evasion to evade its breath weapon. As I recall, the monk eventually stumbled across a Holy Avenger he delivered to the paladin who finally managed to smite the dragon to death.

On the flip side though, the monk did actually use High Jump, Abundant Step, and Fast Movement to navigate the dragon's lair in his search for loot, and I believe he even used Slow Fall at one point to slide down from a niche in the wall that the dragon had tucked the sword into, so maybe that was a monk doing exactly what monks are supposed to do. If he'd been a few levels higher, he might have even been able to use Tongue of the Sun and Moon to ask the bats hanging from the ceiling for directions and saved some time running around.


Darth Grall wrote:
Now am I the only one whom feels we're getting a bit off topic? Wasn't this supposed to be about Bard, Rougues, and Magi and how they don't/do suffer the problems of the monk? :/

Nobody is saying bards don't hit. Bards hit just fine. Inspire Courage effects them as well. Being medium BAB means power attack is lower, making them power attack at worst at the same accuracy as a full BAB class with no other bonus (non-smiting paladin, non-FE ranger, non-challenging Cavalier) and Arcane Strike makes up some of the difference. All of the difference past level 10 if using a two handed weapon, level 5 if not. Then there's magic. From level 7 the bard will probably be casting Good Hope in major combats for another +2 accuracy, pretty much offsetting the more spread out point buy. Someone else is going to be on haste or blessing of fervor duty in most parties.

Arcane Strike indirectly contributes to Magus accuracy as well. Between Arcane Strike and Spell Strike the Magus can do decent damage without Power Attack. Not having to power attack all the time to have non-negligible damage pushes the Magus to 19/20 BAB.

Rogue's don't have to power attack either actually. They sneak attack.

I guess one question that needs asking is do monks use Power Attack? I'm not quite sure what ratio they're going to get out of it. If flurry is TWF they're going to get 1.5:1. If unarmed strikes never being off-hand means they always get a 2:1 they probably should. If monks are assumed to be power attacking to have decent damage that's where a lot of their accuracy deficit is coming from.


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Sarrion wrote:
Fornication armor sounds fun..

LOL.

Darn it. That is why we need more time for edits.


Nicos wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Level 15 you get a death attack with a fortitude save. Too bad nearly everything you might want to kill with it has a high fort save and size bonus inflated constitution. Still, it's on a par with similar spells.
I agree with all yuour points except maybe this one. It is true that it is hard to kill a standar monster but this ability works great against wizards,withcs,bards,rogues,ninjas,sorceres and oracles, so i think is slightly better taht you say. But still it does not compensate those levels of slow fall u.u

A class having weak base save does not translate to an actual weak save in the game. I can't speak for other GM's but I never ignore fort saves. That means my NPC casters will not be needing a roll above 10 to fail that save unless you used ability focus and put a lot of effort into boosting your wisdom score.


Dabbler wrote:
Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Yes, shame we found it in the invisible devil's loot, really
I had been afraid you would say that... :-)
Well for all the good he did in the fight, he could have searched for it, found it and used it while everyone else fought the devil and still contributed more.

Hmm, if for some reason your monk would have known that such a thing existed in the devil's lair, then, yes, that would have been an appropriate (and important) job for a monk. Not every contribution to a fight is dealing damage.


Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Yes, shame we found it in the invisible devil's loot, really
I had been afraid you would say that... :-)
Well for all the good he did in the fight, he could have searched for it, found it and used it while everyone else fought the devil and still contributed more.
Hmm, if for some reason your monk would have known that such a thing existed in the devil's lair, then, yes, that would have been an appropriate (and important) job for a monk. Not every contribution to a fight is dealing damage.

Looting while the monster is fighting someone else is also a role that can be performed by any lightly armored class that can put points in stealth and perception. You're suggesting that the monk can do something better accomplished by a kobold commoner.


wraithstrike wrote:
I can't speak for other GM's but I never ignore fort saves. That means my NPC casters will not be needing a roll above 10 to fail that save unless you used ability focus and put a lot of effort into boosting your wisdom score.

(emphasis mine)

Shouldn't the saves of NPCs depend on their character/role instead?
I.e. the stereotypical bookish wizard, probably with a sickly health for spending all of his time indoors poring over books, would not have a good fort save, would he?
There are lots of other wizard types, of course, which indeed may have good or even great fort saves.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
We had this happen once. We were fighting an ancient red dragon that the monk could not hit, but who also could not hit the monk with any of its attacks, so the monk spent his turns searching the dragon's horde for items that might help in the fight while using Improved Evasion to evade its breath weapon. As I recall, the monk eventually stumbled across a Holy Avenger he delivered to the paladin who finally managed to smite the dragon to death.
Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Hmm, if for some reason your monk would have known that such a thing existed in the devil's lair, then, yes, that would have been an appropriate (and important) job for a monk. Not every contribution to a fight is dealing damage.

The problem with this strategy is how does the monk recognise the item when he finds it? He doesn't have detect magic after all...so to him it's just a lantern, or a pretty sword...

Atarlost wrote:
I guess one question that needs asking is do monks use Power Attack? I'm not quite sure what ratio they're going to get out of it. If flurry is TWF they're going to get 1.5:1. If unarmed strikes never being off-hand means they always get a 2:1 they probably should. If monks are assumed to be power attacking to have decent damage that's where a lot of their accuracy deficit is coming from.

Power Attack is overrated; unless you are using a two-handed weapon it's an also-ran feat, because what you gain in damage you lose in hits. It only works well when your chances to hit are very good - currently, that isn't likely if you are a monk using unarmed strike.

Sczarni

Can monks even use Power Attack with unarmed strikes? They're considered light weapons.

If getting their full Strength bonus on all unarmed strikes mean they can also Power Attack, or if the "not with light weapons" clause was dropped at some point, then I suppose it could work.

EDIT: Never mind, i re-read it. You just can't add 1.5xSTR by "holding it in both hands" because it's a light weapon. I can see why this isn't considered a priority for monks, except maybe as a prereq.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The 'not light weapon' prereq was dropped in Pathfinder.

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