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If Monks have trouble hitting...


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Krigare wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Whole lotta stuff that doesn't say what he/she thinks

Yes, now, I don't seem to recall saying that an unarmed strike was a natural weapon. I said it was a natural attack. Please, point to me, where it says an unarmed strike IS NOT A NATURAL ATTACK.

There is a difference, and since we are being excessively picky about wording, not one single sentence in anything you bolded states that an unarmed attack is not a natural attack.

I'll give you some help here, the PRD does say this:

PRD wrote:
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. [b]A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).[b]

Bolded the important sentence, with italics for the really important part. Now then, if such things do not count as natural attacks, why would they waste ink and word count telling you to look at natural attacks?

They wouldn't.

So...a monk (specifically called out!!!!), a character with Improved Unarmed Strike, casters delivering touch spells, creatures attacking with natural physical weapons are all natural attacks. Haste works with natural attacks. Haste works with unarmed strikes and a monks unarmed strike.

Now, anything else or can we go on to something else?

Unarmed attacks are not the same as natural attacks. Natural attacks follow specific natural attack rules and are in a special category of their own. Unarmed attacks include both unarmed strikes and natural attacks.

A sorcerer can cast shocking grasp and channel it through an unarmed attack (an unarmed strike, gauntlet, or claw attack for example), but not through a quarterstaff.

Read the rules dude.

Silver Crusade

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Ashiel wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

Monks are considered armed so they do get the extra attack from Haste.

Fighters would get it while wearing a gauntlet.

Armed does not a manufactured weapon make. Are you seriously just trolling like the other poster thinks? Because I think you are too. You are "armed" with a natural attack too, but it does not make natural attacks (or unarmed strikes) manufactured weapons.

God, and I'm accused of derailing threads. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. I have quoted more than a page of text from the PRD on the subject, walked you through it step by step. Explained not all things gray are elephants. What more do you want man?

Since when was your word the final say so on what's RAW and what isn't?

It's not by the way.


ciretose wrote:

Stay classy!

On topic, is everyone now in agreement that the monk needs at minimum an attack bonus to unarmed, and likely an entire enhancement bonus?

It's getting harder and harder to tell...

But yeah. +hit and +enhancement is the way to go. The only question is how much to bake into the class and how much to tack on as itemization.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
Krigare wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Whole lotta stuff that doesn't say what he/she thinks

Yes, now, I don't seem to recall saying that an unarmed strike was a natural weapon. I said it was a natural attack. Please, point to me, where it says an unarmed strike IS NOT A NATURAL ATTACK.

There is a difference, and since we are being excessively picky about wording, not one single sentence in anything you bolded states that an unarmed attack is not a natural attack.

I'll give you some help here, the PRD does say this:

PRD wrote:
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. [b]A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).[b]

Bolded the important sentence, with italics for the really important part. Now then, if such things do not count as natural attacks, why would they waste ink and word count telling you to look at natural attacks?

They wouldn't.

So...a monk (specifically called out!!!!), a character with Improved Unarmed Strike, casters delivering touch spells, creatures attacking with natural physical weapons are all natural attacks. Haste works with natural attacks. Haste works with unarmed strikes and a monks unarmed strike.

Now, anything else or can we go on to something else?

Unarmed attacks are not the same as natural attacks. Natural attacks follow specific natural attack rules and are in a special category of their own. Unarmed attacks include both unarmed strikes and natural attacks.

A sorcerer can cast shocking grasp and channel it through an unarmed attack (an unarmed strike, gauntlet, or claw attack for example), but not through a quarterstaff.

Read the rules dude.

I did dude. Quoted em for you to. Look, I get it, you don't want to admit your wrong. Fine. But when the book tells you to reference natural attacks in specific reference to monks and characters with Improved Unarmed Strike, pretty sure that means it is a natural attack.

Now, since you're down to the 'Nuh-uh. read the rules dude" point, I'm done after this, I have no desire to have Ross start deleting posts of mine.

So, can we try and find where the thread was before Ashiel decided to derail it?


Krigare, stop. Go back and read the text he posted. It's cut and dry.

Either you're trolling, or you didn't read the pages of citations he gave you.


ciretose wrote:

And I wonder what it has to do with the OP's question of why the Magus and Rogue don't have problems hitting and Monk's do

For the record, the answer is Magus can self buff as well as enhancing primary weapons. Rogues can focus on a single ability [Dex] and also enhance primary weapons.

Monks can enhance monk weapons at normal cost, but will still lag behind because they can't focus on a single ability or self buff.

Additionally unarmed focused monks can only enhance using AoMF which costs significantly more than regular weapon enhancement, caps at +5 and takes up a slot.

That is an on topic post for this thread. Maybe the other posts could find a nice home in a thread where they belong...

Agreed, monks need help in landing attacks and UAS monks need help with enhancement bonuses.

Given the still low damage output, even with an increase in odds to hit, I suspect that part of the current idea being floated (WIS-to-hit) might have a chance to see inclusion by Paizo.

What I'm concerned about is how to buff UAS. Paizo has said they don't want to obsolete AoMF. If the ki-strike-gives-enhancement-to-hit idea were implemented, it would more or less obviate the need for AoMF, unless AoMF was allowed to stack with the ki-strike buff. But Paizo also seems to not want to make UAS too attractive because of what seem to be perceived tactical strengths of UAS in that circumstance (e.g. increasing base damage of monk UAS, never being weaponless, no need to draw). Making UAS more capable of beating DR and/or giving it more bonuses to hit or possibly even damage seem likely to be rejected based on my interpretation of their mood concerning UAS. Thoughts?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Aratok, I did. My issue with it is that one of a few things is happening.

Either a) Haste's extra attack effects a natural or manufactured weapon. At that point, the wording for the monks unarmed strike exception kicks in, and he's covered.

Or

b) A monks unarmed strike is considered to be an actual weapon, of the natural variety due to the interaction of the rules, including the ones Ashiel posted. Why? The rules I posted tell you to reference the rules about natural attacks. The natural attack rules say they occur with natural weapons. Now then, either the rules directly contradict themselves in the same section, or the above logic chain is correct.

Or

c) Common sense doesn't apply when reading the rules, strict literal interpretation of the language and wording used is the only viable way, and everything must be explicitly and specifically spelled out. Pretty sure this isn't the case, otherwise the rule books are a few hundred (if not thousand) pages short.

Last time I checked, feats and class abilities can and did modify the basic rules, that is after all, why we don't go running around playing commoners and experts, and why we get picky about our feats. I could say some more, but I'm about at the point where it goes from rational discussion and into flaming, so I'm going to call it good from here and go watch some TV.


Quintessentially Me wrote:
ciretose wrote:

Agreed, monks need help in landing attacks and UAS monks need help with enhancement bonuses.

Given the still low damage output, even with an increase in odds to hit, I suspect that part of the current idea being floated (WIS-to-hit) might have a chance to see inclusion by Paizo.

What I'm concerned about is how to buff UAS. Paizo has said they don't want to obsolete AoMF. If the ki-strike-gives-enhancement-to-hit idea were implemented, it would more or less obviate the need for AoMF, unless AoMF was allowed to stack with the ki-strike buff. But Paizo also seems to not want to make UAS too attractive because of what seem to be perceived tactical strengths of UAS in that circumstance (e.g. increasing base damage of monk UAS, never being weaponless, no need to draw). Making UAS more capable of beating DR and/or giving it more bonuses to hit or possibly even damage seem likely to be rejected based on my interpretation of their mood concerning UAS. Thoughts?

I think the idea is that baking +hit into ki strike will be in addition to anything provided by the aomf or another itemization fix (such as ciretose's suggestion to allow monks themselves to be enchantable like weapons). Kind of like the fighter's weapon training doesn't discourage him from looking for a magic sword. As for being disarm immune and all that, that's just a locked gauntlet. Yeah, it counts in the monk's favor but it shouldn't count for much.


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We've been over this. Haste does not affect weapons, it affects creatures. You're being purposefully disruptive and you know it.


Krigare wrote:

Aratok, I did. My issue with it is that one of a few things is happening.

Either a) Haste's extra attack effects a natural or manufactured weapon. At that point, the wording for the monks unarmed strike exception kicks in, and he's covered.

No it doesn't. Haste does not enhance or improve a weapon or natural attack.

Quote:
b) A monks unarmed strike is considered to be an actual weapon, of the natural variety due to the interaction of the rules, including the ones Ashiel posted. Why? The rules I posted tell you to reference the rules about natural attacks. The natural attack rules say they occur with natural weapons. Now then, either the rules directly contradict themselves in the same section, or the above logic chain is correct.

Not a manufactured weapon.

Quote:
c) Common sense doesn't apply when reading the rules, strict literal interpretation of the language and wording used is the only viable way, and everything must be explicitly and specifically spelled out. Pretty sure this isn't the case, otherwise the rule books are a few hundred (if not thousand) pages short.

Your appeal to ignore the rules and base it not on the rules but on your own idea of common sense is as good as forfeiting the discussion. This discussion was over the moment you began arguing that by common sense magic would work a certain way.

Quote:
Last time I checked, feats and class abilities can and did modify the basic rules, that is after all, why we don't go running around playing commoners and experts, and why we get picky about our feats. I could say some more, but I'm about at the point where it goes from rational discussion and into flaming, so I'm going to call it good from here and go watch some TV.

It does modify the rules. Monks can legally have their unarmed strikes affected by spells such as greater magic weapon, align weapon, and disrupting weapon, even though these are not normally legal spells or effects to use on unarmed strikes. However, haste does not enhance or improve weapons or natural attacks.

Since you wanna argue about common sense, how is this one for you?

Let's say you want to throw footballs better. You have a class feature that says footballs you're holding count as automobiles for the purposes of spells and effects. Because of your class feature, I can cast a spell on your football that gives +1 to hit with an automobile. You now have a +1 football. I cast a spell on YOU that says you can throw things more than once per round, except for footballs. You're not throwing more than one football.


Quintessentially Me wrote:
ciretose wrote:

And I wonder what it has to do with the OP's question of why the Magus and Rogue don't have problems hitting and Monk's do

For the record, the answer is Magus can self buff as well as enhancing primary weapons. Rogues can focus on a single ability [Dex] and also enhance primary weapons.

Monks can enhance monk weapons at normal cost, but will still lag behind because they can't focus on a single ability or self buff.

Additionally unarmed focused monks can only enhance using AoMF which costs significantly more than regular weapon enhancement, caps at +5 and takes up a slot.

That is an on topic post for this thread. Maybe the other posts could find a nice home in a thread where they belong...

Agreed, monks need help in landing attacks and UAS monks need help with enhancement bonuses.

Given the still low damage output, even with an increase in odds to hit, I suspect that part of the current idea being floated (WIS-to-hit) might have a chance to see inclusion by Paizo.

What I'm concerned about is how to buff UAS. Paizo has said they don't want to obsolete AoMF. If the ki-strike-gives-enhancement-to-hit idea were implemented, it would more or less obviate the need for AoMF, unless AoMF was allowed to stack with the ki-strike buff. But Paizo also seems to not want to make UAS too attractive because of what seem to be perceived tactical strengths of UAS in that circumstance (e.g. increasing base damage of monk UAS, never being weaponless, no need to draw). Making UAS more capable of beating DR and/or giving it more bonuses to hit or possibly even damage seem likely to be rejected based on my interpretation of their mood concerning UAS. Thoughts?

I doubt that giving the monk an enhancement bonus on unarmed strikes only, based retaining at least 1 point in their ki pool, will obsolete the AoMF, if only because that item can have special weapon properties without first having an enhancement bonus. But, I agree, I find it unlikely that Paizo will go down that route given their concerns at how strong they view a monk's unarmed strike now.

A weapon training like feature (for attack rolls and combat maneuver checks only, not damage rolls) is probably the best way to give the monk a boost in hitting power without breaking the class apart and completely rebuilding it. They could add it at 5th level, since you get purity of body (immune to disease, how often does that come up?) and high jump (I can jump better than my super-speed and maxed acrobatics allows? And spend ki to jump even further?).

And you could do it with very few words, getting the space from streamlining and clearing up unarmed strike and flurry of blows.

MA

Andoran

Aratrok wrote:

Krigare, stop. Go back and read the text he posted. It's cut and dry.

Either you're trolling, or you didn't read the pages of citations he gave you. [/QUOTE

Why isn't this in another thread where it belongs?

Seriously, the thread raid derailing is beyond getting old.

If there is a rules dispute, make a thread, click FAQ and stop derailing the discussion.

To all parties.


master arminas wrote:
Quintessentially Me wrote:
ciretose wrote:

And I wonder what it has to do with the OP's question of why the Magus and Rogue don't have problems hitting and Monk's do

For the record, the answer is Magus can self buff as well as enhancing primary weapons. Rogues can focus on a single ability [Dex] and also enhance primary weapons.

Monks can enhance monk weapons at normal cost, but will still lag behind because they can't focus on a single ability or self buff.

Additionally unarmed focused monks can only enhance using AoMF which costs significantly more than regular weapon enhancement, caps at +5 and takes up a slot.

That is an on topic post for this thread. Maybe the other posts could find a nice home in a thread where they belong...

Agreed, monks need help in landing attacks and UAS monks need help with enhancement bonuses.

Given the still low damage output, even with an increase in odds to hit, I suspect that part of the current idea being floated (WIS-to-hit) might have a chance to see inclusion by Paizo.

What I'm concerned about is how to buff UAS. Paizo has said they don't want to obsolete AoMF. If the ki-strike-gives-enhancement-to-hit idea were implemented, it would more or less obviate the need for AoMF, unless AoMF was allowed to stack with the ki-strike buff. But Paizo also seems to not want to make UAS too attractive because of what seem to be perceived tactical strengths of UAS in that circumstance (e.g. increasing base damage of monk UAS, never being weaponless, no need to draw). Making UAS more capable of beating DR and/or giving it more bonuses to hit or possibly even damage seem likely to be rejected based on my interpretation of their mood concerning UAS. Thoughts?

I doubt that giving the monk an enhancement bonus on unarmed strikes only, based retaining at least 1 point in their ki pool, will obsolete the AoMF, if only because that item can have special weapon properties without first having an enhancement bonus. But, I agree, I find it...

Alright, so let's go a step further. I don't think anyone would say that with these to-hit/enhancement buffs the core monk would be imbalanced or overpowered, which I think was the original concern raised in this thread (or one of them, I forget which).

So to me, the logical followup would be... is it enough? What do we have at this point?

I mean, clearly damage output goes up a bit because you are landing more blows. More importantly, a player would feel more useful because they actually have a chance at impacting gameplay even on tough fights. There would be less MAD, with reduced need to emphasize STR, giving the option for players to strive for something other than a beefcake monk.

Would this be enough? I'm not trying to advocate one way or another, I'm curious about opinions. Would you be content playing this new monk?

And what would be different? How much would Stunning Fist be improved in terms of expectations of success? How much would combat maneuvers be impacted? I'm guessing that given the modest change involved with the to-hit tweak, the intent would be to focus on the monk-as-skirmisher role. Would monks work in that role with this change?

Andoran

I think we need some builds to judge how much this would improve the class, compared to the CR expectations in the bestiary.

I would be interested in some people who say the monk is fine showing how the additions would make the monk "broken" relative to other classes.


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How is it that every time a thread about Monks happens, we always need to see new builds to check the facts?

Builds have been done. Many times. Those threads still exist.
Reposting/rebuilding random builds won't change the previous findings any, so why does it keep coming up?

(Though, I do admit, almost no one who says "Monks are fine" are the ones doing the builds. It'd be interesting to see people actually willing to "show their work" so to speak.)

Andoran

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Neo2151 wrote:

How is it that every time a thread about Monks happens, we always need to see new builds to check the facts?

Builds have been done. Many times. Those threads still exist.
Reposting/rebuilding random builds won't change the previous findings any, so why does it keep coming up?

(Though, I do admit, almost no one who says "Monks are fine" are the ones doing the builds. It'd be interesting to see people actually willing to "show their work" so to speak.)

Because posting builds that say "Look, I made a sucky monk" is unhelpful.

Because posting "In my games someone made a crappy monk" is unhelpful.

Because saying "Monks are fine because I can make "X" aspect of the monk great" doesn't show what you had to make crappy to make "X" aspect great, and that is unhelpful.

Without a build, you are looking at a it out of context. And much like picture of someone taken under ideal circumstances at strange angles (or less than ideal circumstances) doesn't accurately show the reality, so to does discussing minutia and specific aspects out of context distort reality.

If monks are fine, it should be easy to post a build of a "fine" monk.

If monks aren't fine, it should be easy to post a build of another class of equal level that blows the doors off of the "fine" monk someone else posted.

Whenever this happens in any of the debates on here (and the "look at me" rules lawyers attention seekers shut up and get out of the way) progress has generally been made at moving the two sides closer to consensus.

If we can reach consensus, the Devs are much more likely to weigh in on one side or the other.

But builds are hard and shouting about off topic items you found that you think prove you are clever isn't.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, what he said.

Andoran

Neo2151 wrote:


I just don't see how a +2 difference makes a class go from, "I have such a hard time hitting things! Good thing I have my skills to back me up," to, "I hit just fine, kthx."

Because the Rogue is actually going to be on pace with the Magus, not behind when you remember the rogue can more or less pour everything into Dex, while the Magus has to divide between physical stats for attack bonus and mental stats for casting.

This is why the rogue I posted in whatever thread that was was so far ahead of the monk posted. A rogue can get to 22 Dex by 5th level without a dump stat (17 + 2 racial, +1 4th, +2 item) meaning by 5th level they can have a +9 to attack before you add any weapon bonuses.

A halfling or Gnome can get to +24 (18 + 2 + 1 small +1 4th, +2 item) and still have no dump stats.

Rogues only really need two stats. Dex and a little Con.

Magus need three or four. Monks need three or four.


Personally I thought your Rogue sacrificed his personality to get that high Dex (you didn't dump your mental scores, but you won't be ferreting out liars or conning anybody either!)

But more importantly, the question was one of a Magus' viability to hit. Rogues tend to be regarded as "having trouble hitting things" and, if what you're saying is true, then the Magus should be having just as much trouble. Yet, people say they're fine.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I agree on that monks who want to use improved unarmed strike as a main weapon and concept (what they were probably made for in the first place) really have some problems with hitting and doing damage, especially the higher level you go and need help/errata.

Monks using weapons forego that problem a little bit.
They still cannot use very good weapons and are restricted.
Either you need an archetype and give up essential monk features like stunning fist/ flurry of blows/ evasion, or not, but in both cases you still need a +2 weapon enhancement to use monk abilities with weapons (except perfect strike).

What i always see when i look at the monk is, that it fits perfect in one place with samurai and ninja, but in the core, where there is so many concentration on "western" fantasy and medieval knight heavy stuff, it doesn´t really fit in. The place there is already occupied by the cleric.
Although i could imagine something like a brother Tick from Robin Hood as a monk. Staff wielding, unarmored, but still good. Perhaps this could be a point for rebirth.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The rogue has trouble hitting things if you don´t dedicate him too.
If you dedicate him to melee or ranged, you will have some trouble.
Also it can be big trouble to get your Sneak Attack often.
Flanking can be difficult because of your AC, feinting is feat heavy.
Any rogue would be very fine with let´s say 3-5 more feats, because then you can have a rogue that´s quite ok in fighting, but who can do some toher rogue like stuff too.

As soon as you have weapon enhancements, it´s getting better.
Take a look at this table to see what you should hit on average and what hits you on average at which CR level:
Pathfinder Monster Creation Rules

On low levels, there is normally no problem.
It starts on higher levels, mid to late game, when magic weapons are normal and magic users cling to their spells instead of fighting in other ways most times. A monk is behind then because AoMF is much more expensive. The question is if flurry of blows does counter this or not. I would say not. Also you have a problem because of DR and damage you deal.
So point 1 is a +hit and +damage/DR-overcoming problem.

The other thing is, you want to invest in WIS to enhance your monk stuff, but also in STR,DEX and CON, because you want to hit, do damage and survive. You can´t wear armor, so you buy rings of protection and bracers of armor. Also quite expensive stuff and you will be behind again. So point 2 is defenses.

What is the solution?
Make the monk a full BAB class?
Let them add WIS to damage every round they spend a ki point on whatever?
Let haste stack with the monk stuff?

THis way monks would be really awesome and a rel concurrence for the fighter.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
Magus need three or four. Monks need three or four.

I disagree - the magus really just needs strength and intelligence. Other stats help, but he can manage with these two because he can self-buff. Low Con? Cast Bear's Endurance. Not fast enough? Cat's Grace or Haste. Good stats elsewhere may help, but ultimately he is not nerfed for the lack of them.

Neo2151 wrote:
Personally I thought your Rogue sacrificed his personality to get that high Dex (you didn't dump your mental scores, but you won't be ferreting out liars or conning anybody either!)

For a rogue scout, going into dungeons, fighting monsters and acting as the party trap-springer, this is acceptable. If you really want a 'face' character the bard will do it better.

Neo2151 wrote:
But more importantly, the question was one of a Magus' viability to hit. Rogues tend to be regarded as "having trouble hitting things" and, if what you're saying is true, then the Magus should be having just as much trouble. Yet, people say they're fine.

The rogue himself hits as well as the monk if not better because he is less MAD (worth +1-2) and he can afford full enhancement for his level (worth another +1-2 below 16th level). Add better weapons and a sneak attack and the rogue has no trouble matching the monk for total DPR, and for being able to deliver it through DR he is way better.

The magus does well thanks to the same factors, and because of that lovely thing called 'arcane pool' - spend a point and increase your weapon enhancement.

Last game I was in my monk was consistently out-hit and out-damaged by the magus in the party. Not just damage per hit but damage per round. His access to fighter feats, added enhancement, greater threat range and more hits all added up.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Haste does not enhance a weapon, it enhances a creature, so the monk unarmed strike text is irrelevant by strict RAW.

how is taht in the case of Unarmed strike the creature is not the weapon?

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:

I think we need some builds to judge how much this would improve the class, compared to the CR expectations in the bestiary.

I would be interested in some people who say the monk is fine showing how the additions would make the monk "broken" relative to other classes.

Honestly, because I'm worried about multiclassing options. I can "fix" the monk now with a fighter multiclass - so what happens if you "fix" the monk by adding bonuses, and I multiclass fighter anyway?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shisumo wrote:
ciretose wrote:

I think we need some builds to judge how much this would improve the class, compared to the CR expectations in the bestiary.

I would be interested in some people who say the monk is fine showing how the additions would make the monk "broken" relative to other classes.

Honestly, because I'm worried about multiclassing options. I can "fix" the monk now with a fighter multiclass - so what happens if you "fix" the monk by adding bonuses, and I multiclass fighter anyway?

Don't fix the monk with flat bonuses that can be made to stack that way, is my answer.

Wis-to-hit is not a flat bonus, it just substitutes the use of one ability modifier for another.

Enhancement bonus to hit grants a kind of bonus that cannot be made to stack with other enhancement bonuses, and the only one available that would work with it is the AoMF which caps at +5.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wis-to-hit but not to-damage doesn't really change anything - if the idea is that monks should be replacing the fighter in a four-person party, they still need Str for damage, so it wouldn't actually change the build. That's the same fallacy that leads to people taking Weapon Finesse and then wondering why the barbarian is always so thoroughly outdamaging them. (If that isn't the idea, then you might have something - but that's also a much more thorough redesign than I thought was being discussed here.)

And obsoleting AoMF just gives me money back I can spend on boosting my defenses - meaning my damage output and my defenses wind up ahead of the curve.


Shisumo wrote:

Wis-to-hit but not to-damage doesn't really change anything - if the idea is that monks should be replacing the fighter in a four-person party, they still need Str for damage, so it wouldn't actually change the build. That's the same fallacy that leads to people taking Weapon Finesse and then wondering why the barbarian is always so thoroughly outdamaging them. (If that isn't the idea, then you might have something - but that's also a much more thorough redesign than I thought was being discussed here.)

And obsoleting AoMF just gives me money back I can spend on boosting my defenses - meaning my damage output and my defenses wind up ahead of the curve.

I think you hit an important point... are we suggesting that a monk be a valid substitute for a fig/ran/bar/pal, with the ability to avoid/mitigate melee damage from something trying to swing a weapon at us and the ability to dish out enough damage to make the monk a viable target (aka tank)? Or are we suggesting that a monk be a valid substitute for a rog/nin/brd in terms of fighting efficacy, able to provide a support role, helping to bring the fight to a close more quickly though not necessarily though Massive Quantities of Single Target Damage?

It seems to me that bringing the core monk's to-hit up to the point where they are consistently contributing would finally put them into the second role, a skirmisher or support striker, because it would not only mean they are finally doing consistent damage it also means they have at least a slightly better chance at landing some of their special abilities which we can all agree are pretty effective when they occur.

What that to-hit bump would not do, in my opinion, is allow a monk to be a tank. From what I can see, by no one's calculation would that boost their damage to the levels of the top end melee under any circumstances (thus meaning they wouldn't be the top threat on the field and therefore unable to grab threat) nor would it significantly upgrade their ability to soak damage.

Andoran

Neo2151 wrote:

Personally I thought your Rogue sacrificed his personality to get that high Dex (you didn't dump your mental scores, but you won't be ferreting out liars or conning anybody either!)

But more importantly, the question was one of a Magus' viability to hit. Rogues tend to be regarded as "having trouble hitting things" and, if what you're saying is true, then the Magus should be having just as much trouble. Yet, people say they're fine.

Rogues in my experience don't have any more trouble than any other 3/4 BaB class, if they take weapon finesse. They have trouble positioning, but in addition to the dex bonus they are generally flanking.

In any max build you have to give up something. The Magus isn't going to be very wise or charismatic.

Andoran

Shisumo wrote:
ciretose wrote:

I think we need some builds to judge how much this would improve the class, compared to the CR expectations in the bestiary.

I would be interested in some people who say the monk is fine showing how the additions would make the monk "broken" relative to other classes.

Honestly, because I'm worried about multiclassing options. I can "fix" the monk now with a fighter multiclass - so what happens if you "fix" the monk by adding bonuses, and I multiclass fighter anyway?

That was why I added the "Is it broken" thread.

For my plan, it would add enhancement bonuses, which don't stack. The multiclass would add little to nothing above what you get now.

Less actually with the replace increasing unarmed with a flat enhancement bonus at the same levels the damage increases.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shisumo wrote:
Wis-to-hit but not to-damage doesn't really change anything - if the idea is that monks should be replacing the fighter in a four-person party, they still need Str for damage, so it wouldn't actually change the build.

Yes it does, and the idea is NOT to replace the fighter in a four-person party, at least not in the conventional sense of guy-that-deals-heaps-of-damage.

The idea is to bring the monk up to speed on hitting, and allowing him to balance his dex and strength a little better. At the moment he has to choose one and effectively dump the other. He currently has a choice of hit and deal damage, or hit and have good AC, or not hit and have a little damage and a little AC. Wis-to-hit means the hit section is suddenly not part of the strength/dex balance equation.

If we can get the monk's attacks to hit and bypass DR, then his stunning fist suddenly comes into play and he doesn't need to deliver the same DPR as the fighter. If his attacks are up, he also gets an increase to his CMB and his maneuvers get decent, which are another factor.

Shisumo wrote:
That's the same fallacy that leads to people taking Weapon Finesse and then wondering why the barbarian is always so thoroughly outdamaging them. (If that isn't the idea, then you might have something - but that's also a much more thorough redesign than I thought was being discussed here.)

It's not a huge redesign, that's the beauty of it. A few changes and the emphasis of the monk changes direction. Fighters and barbarians have DPR wrapped up tight. Paladins smash evil and rangers rock the wild. Those are their things, let them do them and be good at them.

The idea of the changes is to let the monk be able to make better use of his existing abilities and give them a little extra schtick than just stunning fist. If they can pierce DR, they become the guy-that-can-hurt-anything-with-his-bare-hands. They don't have to hurt it a lot to be useful in that regard, especially as 1 point is enough to force a save with stunning fist. The reason stunning fist works so badly at the moment is that the monk's poor chances to hit, inability to really pump wisdom to get the save up, and poor ability to bypass DR really nerf it.

Shisumo wrote:
And obsoleting AoMF just gives me money back I can spend on boosting my defenses - meaning my damage output and my defenses wind up ahead of the curve.

The great thing is, AoMF is not obsoleted by this change or ciretose's. I would give the monk an automatic enhancement to hit, but not to damage. So if you want to get damage out there, you need the AoMF. But that's OK, it can be all properties that boost damage, making up for those few strength points you dropped maybe. Or if you do dump it for an amulet of natural armour, you will have sacrificed damage output for AC, but from a much better basis.

Andoran

Shisumo wrote:

Wis-to-hit but not to-damage doesn't really change anything - if the idea is that monks should be replacing the fighter in a four-person party, they still need Str for damage, so it wouldn't actually change the build. That's the same fallacy that leads to people taking Weapon Finesse and then wondering why the barbarian is always so thoroughly outdamaging them. (If that isn't the idea, then you might have something - but that's also a much more thorough redesign than I thought was being discussed here.)

And obsoleting AoMF just gives me money back I can spend on boosting my defenses - meaning my damage output and my defenses wind up ahead of the curve.

I don't think the idea is the monk is replacing the fighter. More likely the Ranger and the Monk combine to fill the roles of the classic Fighter and Rogue.

Or a Monk, a Magus, and Inquistior and Bard fill all the roles with none filling any of the specific roles.

The monk isn't a fighter anymore than a Ranger is a Druid.

Silver Crusade

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I think more emphasis needs to be placed on the Ki Pool. I think more options need to be presented and a larger Ki Pool.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There are issues with ki-pool, one of which is the swift-action economy and the 1 round duration of most abilities. Certainly it should be addressed if it is expanded by much.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Dabbler, ciretose, would you consider laying out a specific proposal, in rules-text, and then at least roughing out a build that uses those rules to demonstrate how you see your changes working? I'm not demanding "proof" of anything here, I'm trying to get a better sense for what you're looking to accomplish with your changes in concrete terms. Once I see that, I could do a comparison build under the current rules set and see what precisely gets better, worse or just different between the two (three?) paradigms.


- fix the hitting problem (unarmed strike, monk weapons and CMB)
- add more options for ki (e.g. for overcoming DR etc.; I created a thread for that not long ago; it contains ideas to improve the swift action economy as well)
- probably increase size of ki pool
- fix Wholeness of Body (swift action; cheaper or heal more)
- fix Abundant step (to include Dimensional Agility)
- probably fix Diamond Soul (to only apply to hostile magic)
- maybe make the extra move when using ki a swift action


Liam ap Thalwig wrote:

- fix the hitting problem (unarmed strike, monk weapons and CMB)

- add more options for ki (e.g. for overcoming DR etc.; I created a thread for that not long ago; it contains ideas to improve the swift action economy as well)
- probably increase size of ki pool
- fix Wholeness of Body (swift action; cheaper or heal more)
- fix Abundant step (to include Dimensional Agility)
- probably fix Diamond Soul (to only apply to hostile magic)
- maybe make the extra move when using ki a swift action

I think bumping the monk to 6 skill points per level wouldn't break anything either. If the ranger can get 6 skills, the monk should get 6 skills too. If they feel these are too many buffs they can kill the Tongue of Sun and Moon freely.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'll see what I can do to fix up a build to demonstrate the ideas at a couple of levels. 5th, 10th & 15th do?

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

More than sufficent. Rough sketches would probably even do it.

Silver Crusade

I think we should see something like this.

Ki Pool: Your Monk level + Your Wisdom Mod.

A Monk can only have three Ki abilities up at once and each one requires a swift action to activate.

Speed of the Cheetah (Cost 2 Ki Points): The Monk adds +20 to his speed for a number of rounds equal to half his Monk level + his Wisdom Mod. By spending an extra 1 from his Ki pool the duration is doubled.

Iron Body (Cost 2 Ki Points): The Monk adds a +4 armor bonus to his AC for a number of rounds equal to half his Monk level + his Wis Mod. By spending an extra point from his Ki pool the duration is doubled.

Spirit Shield (Cost 2 Ki Points): The Monk adds a +4 defection bonus to his AC for a number of rounds equal to half his Monk level + his Wis mod. By spending an extra point from his Ki Pool the duration is doubled.

Battle Meditation (Cost 2 Ki Points): The Monk adds a +4 insight bonus to his attack rolls for a number of rounds equal to half his Monk level + his Wisdom mod. By spending an extra 2 points of Ki the duration is doubled.

Fists of the Elements (Cost 2 Ki Points): The Monk can add flaming, acidic, frost, etc to his fists for a number of rounds equal to half his Monk level + his Wis mod.

Adaptation (Cost 2 Ki points): When the Monk hits a creature with DR he can spend 2 Ki Points and his unarmed attacks adapt to whatever DR the creature last hit posses for a number of rounds equal to half his Monk level + his Wis mod. By spending an extra 1 point of Ki the duration is doubled. At 3rd level the Monk can adapt to two creatures with different DR. For example: A Monk hits a creature with DR 5/Magic becomes adapted and then hits another creature who has DR 5/Cold Iron, he can spend another 2 Ki Points to become adapted to both Magic and Cold Iron but only applies to those creatures.

Or something along those lines. I would implement some levels in there and make it a bit more organized but I think you get the jest of it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like your ideas, but a number of them trespass on the toes of existing feats and archetypes.

I think you need to do one of two things with ki: Either increase the pool and spend it per round like bardic performance and rage, or else keep it as-is and spend it per minute.

Silver Crusade

Yeah I see what you mean. It was just a spur of he moment idea so I figured I would throw it up here and see where it went.


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Shisumo wrote:
Dabbler, ciretose, would you consider laying out a specific proposal, in rules-text, and then at least roughing out a build that uses those rules to demonstrate how you see your changes working? I'm not demanding "proof" of anything here, I'm trying to get a better sense for what you're looking to accomplish with your changes in concrete terms. Once I see that, I could do a comparison build under the current rules set and see what precisely gets better, worse or just different between the two (three?) paradigms.

Okay, first let's take a look at the Core monk.

These are the main areas in which the monk class is seen to be at odds and it consists of 926 words and there is a Table in there (3-10: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage) that we will no longer need, which consumes enough space for another 300 or so words.

Spoiler:

Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attack when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with is unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table 3-9. The unarmed damage values listed on Table 3-9 is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage: see Small or Large Monk Unarmed damage on the table given below.

Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack. In addition, he can spend 1 point to increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels.

The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation: these hours do not need to be consecutive.

Slow Fall (Ex): At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent. When first gaining this ability, he takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk's ability to slow his fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with his monk level until at 20th level he can use a nearby wall to slow his descent and fall any distance without harm.

Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a standard action. He can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to his monk level by using 2 points from his ki pool.

Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. He cannot take other creatures with him when he uses this ability.

That is the monk as written and presented in the Core Rulesbook. Here is what I would change, were I working for Paizo.

Spoiler:

Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. A monk may make a flurry of blows attack only when he is not wearing any type of armor, using or wielding a shield, and carrying no more than a light load. If these conditions are met, he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) at his highest attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonus are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table 3-9 above. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before his next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. At 11th level, the monk gains a second additional attack at his highest attack bonus when using his flurry of blows ability.

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers as part of a flurry of blows. A monk may choose to perform a flurry of blows with a single weapon if he so desires. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks. A monk cannot combine Two-Weapon Fighting with his flurry of blows to gain additional attacks.

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk may make his unarmed attacks with any part of his body, whether or not his hands are full. A monk applies his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with is unarmed strikes than a normal person would. A monk deals 1d8 damage (lethal or nonlethal at his option) when his unarmed strikes. This damage is given for a Medium monk. A Small monk instead deals 1d6 points of damage with his unarmed strikes, while a Large monk deals 1d10 points of damage with this unarmed strikes. This unarmed damage does not increase as the monk gains levels.

Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike grants his unarmed attacks a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, as well as allowing him unarmed attacks to affect incorporeal creatures and overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 8th level, and every four levels gained thereafter, the enhancement bonus granted on his unarmed strikes for attack rolls and damage rolls increases by +1, to a maximum bonus of +5 at 20th level. Starting at 8th level, a monk’s unarmed strikes are treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 12th level, his unarmed strikes are treated as cold iron or alchemical silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness. At 20th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are treated as chaotic, evil, and good weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

By spending 1 point from his ki, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack. In addition, he can spend 1 point to make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when the monk uses a move action to move, charges, or uses the Spring Attack feat. Finally, a monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels.

The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation: these hours do not need to be consecutive.

Slow Fall (Ex): At 4th level or higher, a monk can fall incredible distances without suffering damage. When falling, a monk always lands on his feet. In addition, by spending 1 point of from his ki pool (see below) as an immediate action, he reduces the number of damage die rolled due to the distance he falls by 1d6 per monk level he possesses, to a maximum reduction of 20d6 at 20th level. Unlike magical spells (such as feather fall) with similar effects, a monk is not slowed during his descent, making this ability a favored method for higher level monks to rapidly descend great distances quickly.

Monastic Weapons Training: Starting at 5th level, a monk gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls when using unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. Every four levels gained thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), this bonus increases by +1. A monk also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks he makes with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons, as well as all checks made to perform a grapple combat maneuver.

This ability does not stack with the fighter Weapons Training class ability, nor is it affected by any magic item which improves fighter Weapons Training.

Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a swift action. By spending 2 points from his ki pool, the monk may heal 1d6 of damage for every two monk levels he possesses.

Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. Unlike the spell, using abundant step does not end the monk’s turn. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level.

The new text is 1,172 words (246 more than the current text, but without the need for Table 3-10, which is a wash).

To summarize:

1. Flurry of blows. Go back to the 3.5 flurry. No more virtual BAB, if a monk is medium BAB/d8 hit die, than let him be medium BAB.

2. Unarmed strikes. Medium monks do 1d8, Small monks do 1d6, Large monks do 1d10 . . . and the damage never increases.

3. Ki Pool. Change to monk level + Wisdom. Ki strike grants +1 enhancement bonus at 4th level, increasing by +1 at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level. 8th level gains lawful weapon, then afterwards follows standard magic weapon progression (cold iron/silver at 12th, adamantine at 16th, alignment at 20th). AoMF is still useful because it can add weapon properties, while ki strike does the heavy lifting of enhancement bonuses. Drop +20' speed for 1 ki, instead get an additional attack at your highest attack bonus when moving, charging, or using the Spring Attack feat for 1 ki.

4. Slow Fall. Replace the whole thing. Read it, because it is quite different. No wall required, though.

5. Monastic Weapons Training. At 5th level, gets a modified version of Weapons Training that gives a +1 bonus to attack rolls only for unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. This bonus also applies to combat maneuvers performed with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons and with grapple maneuvers. Increases at 9th, 13th, and 17th level. Does not stack with fighter training, and you cannot use gloves of dueling.

6. Wholeness of Body. Made it a swift action that heals 1d6 for every 2 monk levels to self only. Exactly like the paladin's lay on hands, except it only affects the monk.

7. Abundant Step. Changed to allow for actions after using this ability.

And that is it. It would also work to boost the monk to where it needs to be without breaking the class. And it can fit within the space available.

Let me know what you think.

Master Arminas


Dabbler wrote:

I like your ideas, but a number of them trespass on the toes of existing feats and archetypes.

I think you need to do one of two things with ki: Either increase the pool and spend it per round like bardic performance and rage, or else keep it as-is and spend it per minute.

I like the idea of getting an amount of ki per round. Maybe even allowing yourself to stockpile ki up to a limit or get bursts of ki using specific actions or items.

Also, because I can't help but to joke...

Ki Charge (Ex): At 5th level, the monk gains the ability to harness more ki energy through a mixture of shouting and focusing. As a full-round action, the monk may add an amount of Ki to his Ki pool equal to his Wisdom modifier. The monk adds only half this amount if the monk is unable to speak or otherwise silenced.

Just kidding. XD


Oh, forgot one thing: add Weapon Specialization as a 6th level monk bonus feat and Greater Weapon Focus at a 10th level monk bonus feat. That increases word count by another 5 words to 1,177.

What does this do for the monk? It keeps his damage with unarmed strikes effective (since that isn't increasing any more) and it close the gap between him and the non-fighter martial classes.

At 20th level, this monk would have a BAB of +15/+10/+5. With Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), and Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), he will have (before ability modifiers) a total of +26/+26/+26/+21/+16 when doing a flurry of blows for 1d8+7 damage. Adding another +26 if he spends a point of ki and potentially up to two more from the feat Medusa's Wrath. This attack bonus is equal to a barbarian, paladin, or ranger of the same level using a +5 weapon and the Weapon Focus feat. Which, in my opinion, is where the monk should be . . . equal to those classes outside of their speciality. Certainly, those classes will have a higher Strength, so they will have a better attack bonus, but the monk gets three or four or even six attacks at that highest attack bonus . . . the others have two, four if they have Medusa's Wrath and their target meets the conditions.

As is, a canon monk with a +5 AoMF (with Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and before ability modifiers) attacks for +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 for 2d10+5. He gets another attack at +24 for spending ki and can benefit from Medusa's Wrath the same as my monk above.

This monk gets two less attacks, but each is higher and he has at least one additional at his highest, not at the lower iterative attacks. Average damage is just 11.5 vs. 16, but he overcomes all types of damage reduction (except for DR/-, slashing, or piercing) and can use his AoMF to bump the damage with properties like flaming, frost, shocking, holy, or speed.

Plus, this change actually lets the monk USE his greater movement, getting two attacks when he does so, or charges, or uses the Spring Attack, putting him squarely in the niche of a mobile warrior that just gets better if he stands still. The change to Abundant Step heightens that effect, and also allows him to pull a critically injured ally out of harm's way (since it isn't restricted to the monk only anymore). His wholeness of body becomes an effective in-combat healing resource, which makes up for his lower hit die.

Sure, MAD hasn't been addressed, but that is something that can be dealth with through current and future feats (to some degree, at least).

Anyway, it is just some ideas.

MA

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Before I answer that question, I would have to ask this: what would you do with monk's robe in regard to the unarmed strike damage increase?


Shisumo wrote:
Before I answer that question, I would have to ask this: what would you do with monk's robe in regard to the unarmed strike damage increase?

Good question! I have given it some thought actually, and what I came up with was this:

This simple brown robe, when worn, confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC is treated as a monk of five levels higher, and her unarmed strike damage is treated as if she were one size category larger. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains a +1 bonus to AC (as per the monk class AC Bonus, but does not add Wisdom). and deals 1d8 damage with her unarmed strikes (1d6 if Small, 1d10 if Large).

That should keep things at the same price, since a 5th level monk did 1d8 damage anyway. This would put Medium monks at 2d6, Small monks at 1d8, and Large monks at 2d8. That might be a bit too much for Large monks, but it fits, at least in my opinion. Especially since you cannot afford a monk's robes until 10th level (if using the balanced WBL guidelines of no more than 25% for a single item) or 8th level (if you allow up to 50% of the wealth on a single item).

MA

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Okay then. So here are three monks, all built using the DPR Olympics guidelines (to keep things on a level playing field, and to prevent over-focusing on one element at the price of an unplayable weakness elsewhere). These are not complete builds, but should be thorough enough to put to rest any issues about “Schrodinger’s monks” and the like. For the purposes of my concern, all are built with an eye toward DPR, and all are specifically going to try to beat you up with their bare hands. All DPR calculations assume an AC of 24, and none account for damage reduction.

Monk (qinggong) 10 (PF version):

Human, dual-talented alternate race trait
Starting stats: Str 15 (+2 racial), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13 (+2 racial), Cha 8.
Level increases: 4th - +1 Wis, 8th - +1 Str
Relevant equipment: belt of giant’s strength +4, headband of incredible wisdom +2, amulet of mighty fists +2, monk’s robe, bracers of armor +2, ring of protection +1, 3K gp left
Feats (in order of picking them up, bonus feats marked with an asterisk*): Toughness, Dodge*, Stunning Fist*, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Combat Reflexes*, Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Improved Grapple*, Elemental Strike, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Improved Critical (unarmed strike)*
Relevant Class Abilities spell-like ability: barkskin, CL 10th, for 1 ki point
Final Stats: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
AC 26 (touch 20, flat-footed 23) – includes barkskin use, as per DPR Olympics guidelines
Saves Fort +8 (+10 vs stunning, paralysis), Ref +9, Will +11 (+13 vs enchantments, sleep)
Melee unarmed strike +16/+11 (2d6+11, 19-20/x2) or
flurry of blows +17/+17/+12/+12 (2d6+11, 19-20/x2)
Special Attacks ki pool (9 pts), stunning fist 12/day (DC 19), elemental strike 10/day (+3d6 acid)

DPR (single attack): 12.87
DPR (flurry of blows): 45.54

Monk (qinggong) 6/Fighter (brawler) 4:

Human, dual-talented alternate race trait
Level Progression: Monk 1, Fighter +4, Monk +5
Starting stats: Str 15 (+2 racial), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13 (+2 racial), Cha 8.
Level increases: 4th - +1 Wis, 8th - +1 Str
Relevant equipment: belt of giant’s strength +4, headband of incredible wisdom +2, amulet of mighty fists +2, monk’s robe, bracers of armor +2, ring of protection +1, 3K gp left
Feats (in order of picking them up, bonus feats marked with an asterisk*): Toughness, Dodge*, Stunning Fist*, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)*, Dragon Style, Improved Grapple*, Dragon Ferocity, Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike)*, Combat Reflexes*, Elemental Strike, Dragon Roar, Improved Trip*
Relevant Class Abilities spell-like ability: barkskin, CL 6th, for 1 ki point
Final Stats: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
AC 24 (touch 19, flat-footed 21) – includes barkskin use, as per DPR Olympics guidelines
Saves Fort +9 (+11 vs stunning, paralysis), Ref +8, Will +10 (+12 vs enchantments, sleep)
Melee unarmed strike +18/+13 (1d10+16, 20/x2) or
flurry of blows +18/+18/+13 (1d10+16, 20/x2)
Special Attacks ki pool (7 pts), stunning fist 9/day (DC 19), elemental strike 7/day (+3d6 acid), close combatant +1/+3

DPR (single attack): 16.93
DPR (flurry of blows): 45.15

Monk 10 (arminas version):

Human, dual-talented alternate race trait
Starting stats: Str 15 (+2 racial), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13 (+2 racial), Cha 8.
Level increases: 4th - +1 Wis, 8th - +1 Str
Relevant equipment: belt of giant’s strength +4, headband of incredible wisdom +4, monk’s robe, bracers of armor +2, ring of protection +1, snakeskin tunic, 3K gp left
Feats (in order of picking them up, bonus feats marked with an asterisk*): Toughness, Dodge*, Stunning Fist*, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Combat Reflexes*, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Dragon Style, Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike)*, Dragon Ferocity, Elemental Strike, Improved Critical (unarmed strike)*
Final Stats: Str 22, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 8
AC 25 (touch 23, flat-footed 21)
Saves Fort +8 (+10 vs stunning, paralysis, poison), Ref +10, Will +12 (+14 vs enchantments, sleep)
Melee unarmed strike +18/+13 (2d6+13, 19-20/x2) or
flurry of blows +18/+18/+13 (2d6+13, 19-20/x2)
Special Attacks ki pool (15 pts, +2 enhancement), stunning fist 12/day (DC 20), elemental strike 10/day (+3d6 acid), monastic weapons training +2

DPR (single attack): 16.50
DPR (flurry of blows): 44.00

So.... yeah. Original monk wins on flurry, monk/fighter hits hardest on single attack; that last, though, is made more complicated by the fact that activating Dragon Style is a swift action, and so can't be used on the same turn as one might spend a ki point on a second attack (for the arminas version).


I think you caught my pre-edit answer, there Shisumo. I messed up on the damage for 1d8 at a size category larger; it is 2d6, not 1d10. Monk's robes give the medium monk 2d6, the same as a normal monk of 8th-10th level. So instead of 1d10+13 damage, you are looking at 2d6+13. That is only an extra 1.5 per attack, but that increases DPR for the pure monk to 16.5 on a single attack and 44 on a non-ki flurry (if my math is right). That isn't that far off from 12.87 (single) and 45.54 (flurry) for the straight monk.

MA


Almost every qinggong monk build swaps for Barkskin. Maybe instead of slow fall core monks should come default with Barkskin instead. This at least frees up the neck slot to dedicate towards AoMF and helps with AC issues due to MAD.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
master arminas wrote:

I think you caught my pre-edit answer, there Shisumo. I messed up on the damage for 1d8 at a size category larger; it is 2d6, not 1d10. Monk's robes give the medium monk 2d6, the same as a normal monk of 8th-10th level. So instead of 1d10+13 damage, you are looking at 2d6+13. That is only an extra 1.5 per attack, but that increases DPR for the pure monk to 16.5 on a single attack and 44 on a non-ki flurry (if my math is right). That isn't that far off from 12.87 (single) and 45.54 (flurry) for the straight monk.

MA

Yeah. Corrected post for that, and also for a glaring math error in the fighter/monk, who was getting one too many attacks for a rather hefty damage bonus.

Even with the corrections, though, I have to ask - if you wind up roughly on parity with the already generally-thought-to-be-broken PF monk, is that what you're aiming for?

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