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If Monks have trouble hitting...


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That I can agree with, and is the real issue here.


Krigare wrote:

Eh, Ashiel, that is a situation where RAW is ambiguous really. Not the thread for hashing it out really lol.

It is a good example though of how the language used for the monk tends to interact poorly or ambiguously with the rest of the ruleset. Even RAI gets difficult to puzzle out sometimes with monks.

I don't believe it's ambiguous in the RAW, but I do agree that monks interact poorly with the system at large and yes that is indeed one of their real problems. :(


Page 46, Core Rules Document. wrote:
Monk, Unarmed Strike: ...A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Now, the question is does haste either enhance or improve a manufactured weapon or natural weapon? Can you rationalize the extra attack as an enhancement? If so, monks may apply haste to their unarmed strike. Remember, the hasted character also gets a +1 bonus (untyped) on Attack Rolls and a +1 Dodge bonus on AC. Now, if the monk's fast movement is at +30' or more (or he spends 1 point of ki to add another +20' of movement), he doesn't get the speed bonus from haste, because enhancement bonuses do not stack with each other.

But, yes. I think that a monk gets an extra attack, even with unarmed strikes, while under the influence of a haste spell.

MA


master arminas wrote:
Page 46, Core Rules Document. wrote:
Monk, Unarmed Strike: ...A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Now, the question is does haste either enhance or improve a manufactured weapon or natural weapon? Can you rationalize the extra attack as an enhancement? If so, monks may apply haste to their unarmed strike. Remember, the hasted character also gets a +1 bonus (untyped) on Attack Rolls and a +1 Dodge bonus on AC. Now, if the monk's fast movement is at +30' or more (or he spends 1 point of ki to add another +20' of movement), he doesn't get the speed bonus from haste, because enhancement bonuses do not stack with each other.

But, yes. I think that a monk gets an extra attack, even with unarmed strikes, while under the influence of a haste spell.

MA

I covered this before. Haste does not target, nor enhance, nor improve a weapon. Haste does not have any effect on the weapon you make the attack with, it affects the attacker. A warrior is hasted, not a sword. Haste affects a creature. It does not target or enhance a weapon. For spells that do, see keen edge, greater magic weapon and align weapon.


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Oh lord. Here...

CRB wrote:

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved

Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.
...
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a
manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the
purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve
either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

From the section on a monks unarmed attack in the class description.

CRB wrote:

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or

creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A
monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat,
a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature
with natural physical weapons all count as being armed
(see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and
defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity.

From page 182, combat section.

Now then, it may just be me, but reading both of those, it seems pretty bloody clear that either way, the monk is covered for being effected by haste. Now, I see nothing, nothing at all that says the monks unarmed strike is unaffected by things that normally enhance unarmed strikes. If there is, please, show me what I missed, and then we can get everyone either complaining or ignoring RAW even more because all of a sudden none of the feats that enhance improved unarmed strike work with the monk unless explicited stated to

Seriously. Can we now please drop the haste thing and get back to out discussion on monks and hitting things?

Andoran

I posted a 5th level rogue build that out hit the hell out of the 5th level monk build and had a higher AC without armor.

That seems more on topic to the discussion.


ciretose wrote:

I posted a 5th level rogue build that out hit the hell out of the 5th level monk build and had a higher AC without armor.

That seems more on topic to the discussion.

Hey mate, that is the other thread lol. It gets confusing doesn't it?

Andoran

Krigare wrote:
ciretose wrote:

I posted a 5th level rogue build that out hit the hell out of the 5th level monk build and had a higher AC without armor.

That seems more on topic to the discussion.

Hey mate, that is the other thread lol. It gets confusing doesn't it?

Oops :)


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Krigare wrote:

Oh lord. Here...

CRB wrote:

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved

Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.
...
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a
manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the
purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve
either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

From the section on a monks unarmed attack in the class description.

CRB wrote:

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or

creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A
monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat,
a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature
with natural physical weapons all count as being armed
(see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and
defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity.

From page 182, combat section.

Now then, it may just be me, but reading both of those, it seems pretty bloody clear that either way, the monk is covered for being effected by haste. Now, I see nothing, nothing at all that says the monks unarmed strike is unaffected by things that normally enhance unarmed strikes. If there is, please, show me what I missed, and then we can get everyone either complaining or ignoring RAW even more because all of a sudden none of the feats that enhance improved unarmed strike work with the monk unless explicited stated to

Seriously. Can we now please drop the haste thing and get back to out discussion on monks and hitting things?

You're missing the point:

The Haste spell doesn't affect a weapon or natural attack. It affects a creature. It enhances the creature, not the creature's weapon.
A Monk's UAS is only counted as "natural" or "manufactured" for spells and effects that enhance weapons.

Haste does not enhance weapons or natural attacks. It enhances creatures.

Is it RAI? No, and Sean has clarified that it needs to be errata'd. Now, he said it needed to be errata'd almost a year ago, and it hasn't been.
So, the RAW doesn't allow it. And not everyone trolls the Paizo forums (like we do) to know the RAI.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

Maybe Paizo should not only hire people who studied english language, but also one or two who studied law, to check their text, hahaha.

Then we would have some real ruleslaywers^^


Neo2151 wrote:

You're missing the point:

The Haste spell doesn't affect a weapon or natural attack. It affects a creature. It enhances the creature, not the creature's weapon.
A Monk's UAS is only counted as "natural" or "manufactured" for spells and effects that enhance weapons.
Haste does not enhance weapons or natural attacks. It enhances creatures.

Is it RAI? No, and Sean has clarified that it needs to be errata'd. Now, he said it needed to be errata'd almost a year ago, and it hasn't been.
So, the RAW doesn't allow it. And not everyone trolls the Paizo forums (like we do) to know the RAI.

Your missing the point. Here, let me lay it out this way, see if it helps any.

CRB pg 182 wrote:

A

monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat,
a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature
with natural physical weapons all count as being armed
(see natural attacks)

Ok, so, specfically stated here, from the combat section, a monk counts as being armed, and tells you to reference natural attacks. Therefore, for purposes of interacting with the rules, unless something specifically calls it out, a monks attack would be affected by anything that affects natural attacks.

The part everyone gets hung up on is this

CRB pg 58 wrote:

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a

manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the
purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve
either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Ok, so for spells that target something specific, a monks unarmed strike counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. Spells like this exist, such as magic weapon, magic fang, and bless weapon to name a few. This means that the monk can benefit from spells designed to enhance either weapons or natural attacks.

Now, the haste spell, in its entirety:

haste:
CRB pg 294 wrote:

Haste

School transmutation; Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a shaving of licorice root)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than
30 ft. apart

Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless); Spell Resistance
yes (harmless)
The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than
normal. This extra speed has several effects.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make
one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.
The
attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any
modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative
with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor
does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a
second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge
bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose
your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose
dodge bonuses.
All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land
movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a
maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of
movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and
it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased
speed. Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and
counters slow.

Bolded the relevant parts for emphasis. Now, the spell targets a creature. Not a weapon, not a natural attack, a weapon. So, does the monks spiffy rule about counts as interact with the targeting aspect? No, because the haste spell isn't checking for weapon type for its target, it is looking for whether something is a creature or not.
So, when the monk makes a full attack, and he attacks with his unarmed strike, is he targeting his unarmed strike with any spells or effects? No. He is however, making an attack with a natural attack, which is what the core rule book says that a monks unarmed strike is treated as for purposes of interacted with the rules unless a specific exception is made. Does haste make a specific exception? No, it simply says when making a full attack with a manufactured or natural weapon you gain an additional attack at your highest bonus. As this is what the monk is doing, he gains the benefit.

It isn't that complicated. That one line in the monk entry doesn't change the monks unarmed strike's type for interaction with the rules except in a very specific case, and that is when a monks unarmed strikes are targeted by a spell or effect. The haste spell, as you so kindly pointed out, does not target the monks unarmed attack, it targets the monk.

So...again, if your saying the monks unarmed strike cannot benefit from haste you saying that is is not a natural weapon, and isn't effected by things that effect Improved Unarmed Strike. As that is a good chunk of feats no one argues the interaction with, why are you trying to make the haste spell an exception to the rule when it isn't specifically called out as such?

Andoran

Krigare wrote:


Seriously. Can we now please drop the haste thing and get back to out discussion on monks and hitting things?

Good luck with that...

On topic, waiting for a viable monk build and not seeing it.

Also open to comment on the rogue I posted in the other thread, since I think we are all the same people :)


Krigare wrote:

It isn't that complicated. That one line in the monk entry doesn't change the monks unarmed strike's type for interaction with the rules except in a very specific case, and that is when a monks unarmed strikes are targeted by a spell or effect. The haste spell, as you so kindly pointed out, does not target the monks unarmed attack, it targets the monk.

So...again, if your saying the monks unarmed strike cannot benefit from haste you saying that is is not a natural weapon, and isn't effected by things that effect Improved Unarmed Strike. As that is a good chunk of feats no one argues the interaction with, why are you trying to make the haste spell an exception to the rule when it isn't specifically called out as such?

The same could be said for Improved Natural Attack and we all know how that turned out. You're absolutely right as well. If the monk's unarmed strikes do not qualify for whatever feats you are talking about then they are illegal matches too. Being considered armed is in no way the same as being a natural or manufactured weapon, merely that in general natural or manufactured weapons also mean you are armed.

EDIT: Of course, before anyone complains, this actually is very much on topic. Haste is the premier martial buff spell and is a power multiplier in a party. It grants extra attacks (and thus extra chances to hit and deal damage) as well as granting a movement speed increase and bonuses to hit, AC, and Reflex saves. The fact that the monk cannot legally gain the extra attack with their unarmed strikes and the speed bonus does not stack with their monk speed bonus is quite relevant to the discussion. In essence, the benefit of a monk's extra-attack via Ki pool is possessed by any martial character with Haste active (via caster or boots or whatever), but the reverse is most definitely not true.

In essence, the moment that a wizard says "I cast haste on myself, the cleric, the ranger, and the bard" the monk has nothing on any of them concerning extra attacks. Meanwhile, if a monk is added to the party or replaces another member (such as the ranger) then they still have to rely on kamas to get their extra hits in.

EDIT 2: Here is a feat that functions on Unarmed Strike. It specifically calls out that it functions on unarmed strikes in fact. I'm not sure which feats you're talking about when you say "So...again, if your saying the monks unarmed strike cannot benefit from haste you saying that is is not a natural weapon, and isn't effected by things that effect Improved Unarmed Strike. As that is a good chunk of feats no one argues the interaction with, why are you trying to make the haste spell an exception to the rule when it isn't specifically called out as such?".

And it's not rocket science. Haste affects an individual and allows that individual to make an additional attack with a manufactured OR natural weapon. Unarmed strike is neither, and the monk's class feature does not change things. It only allows it to be treated as a manufactured weapon if an effect specifically targets a weapon. Thus a monk's unarmed strikes can receive benefits from spells like greater magic weapon or align weapon but not haste, lead blades, and so forth.


Ashiel wrote:


EDIT: Of course, before anyone complains, this actually is very much on topic. Haste is the premier martial buff spell and is a power multiplier in a party. It grants extra attacks (and thus extra chances to hit and deal damage) as well as granting a movement speed increase and bonuses to hit, AC, and Reflex saves. The fact that the monk cannot legally gain the extra attack with their unarmed strikes and the speed bonus does not stack with their monk speed bonus is quite relevant to the discussion. In essence, the benefit of a monk's extra-attack via Ki pool is possessed by any martial character with Haste active (via caster or boots or whatever), but the reverse is most definitely not true.

In essence, the moment that a wizard says "I cast haste on myself, the cleric, the ranger, and the bard" the monk has nothing on any of them concerning extra...

If they ever come out and say haste doesn't stack with ki, you can kiss the monk good bye, I can probably build a wizard that out DPRs a monk, via polymorph spells. Especially if they don't get the +1 to hit and extra attack.

Andoran

Make a new thread for your derail please...


Gignere wrote:
Ashiel wrote:


EDIT: Of course, before anyone complains, this actually is very much on topic. Haste is the premier martial buff spell and is a power multiplier in a party. It grants extra attacks (and thus extra chances to hit and deal damage) as well as granting a movement speed increase and bonuses to hit, AC, and Reflex saves. The fact that the monk cannot legally gain the extra attack with their unarmed strikes and the speed bonus does not stack with their monk speed bonus is quite relevant to the discussion. In essence, the benefit of a monk's extra-attack via Ki pool is possessed by any martial character with Haste active (via caster or boots or whatever), but the reverse is most definitely not true.

In essence, the moment that a wizard says "I cast haste on myself, the cleric, the ranger, and the bard" the monk has nothing on any of them concerning extra...

If they ever come out and say haste doesn't stack with ki, you can kiss the monk good bye, I can probably build a wizard that out DPRs a monk, via polymorph spells. Especially if they don't get the +1 to hit and extra attack.

Sorry, perhaps I was not clear. The extra attack from Ki CAN stack with haste, but the thing is you cannot make an extra attack via haste with your Unarmed Strike. In essence, if you're a monk who fights unarmed (quintessential monk really) then you are out of luck. Otherwise, if you want to get extra attacks from haste, you better become very friendly with these (or another monk weapon).


ciretose wrote:
Make a new thread for your derail please...

Make a new thread for your whining, please. I said why this is on topic already, so feel free to ignore it if you want but it doesn't make it belong here any more or less than "post a build, plz!" repeated over and over again. This is on topic as it directly pertains to monks having trouble hitting things.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

To my knowledge, haste does not stack with ki attack. That is how the PFS I play with is played with all the GMs I have played with. That is fine by me, I need that ki for +4 dodge AC.

Andoran

Ashiel wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Make a new thread for your derail please...
Make a new thread for your whining, please. I said why this is on topic already, so feel free to ignore it if you want but it doesn't make it belong here any more or less than "post a build, plz!" repeated over and over again. This is on topic as it directly pertains to monks having trouble hitting things.

Saying it is on topic doesn't make it on topic. I'm not the first to point out this is a derail, if you want to have a discussion of haste, open a thread, post your wall o' text and click the FAQ tab.

Thanks!


ciretose wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Make a new thread for your derail please...
Make a new thread for your whining, please. I said why this is on topic already, so feel free to ignore it if you want but it doesn't make it belong here any more or less than "post a build, plz!" repeated over and over again. This is on topic as it directly pertains to monks having trouble hitting things.

Saying it is on topic doesn't make it on topic. I'm not the first to point out this is a derail, if you want to have a discussion of haste, open a thread, post your wall o' text and click the FAQ tab.

Thanks!

No.

LoreKeeper wrote:
To my knowledge, haste does not stack with ki attack. That is how the PFS I play with is played with all the GMs I have played with. That is fine by me, I need that ki for +4 dodge AC.

Well I just double checked the monk and it has no restriction, and reading haste, you couldn't make an additional attack with the weapon you use your ki-attack with, but you would still get your extra attack. So I suppose you could Ki-attack on your unarmed strike and take your haste attack with your Kama.

Still, it returns us to the problem that for an unarmed martial artist you're out of luck, and if you need to purchase a variety of kamas and the like to take advantage of common martial buffs AND buy an amulet of mighty fists, you have to split your money (and possibly feats if you were planning to use Weapon Focus or similar to improve your hit odds) further than normal (and you're already strained as a monk in this department).


Ashiel wrote:
And it's not rocket science. Haste affects an individual and allows that individual to make an additional attack with a manufactured OR natural weapon. Unarmed strike is neither, and the monk's class feature does not change things. It only allows it to be treated as a manufactured weapon if an effect specifically targets a weapon. Thus a monk's unarmed strikes can receive benefits from spells like greater magic weapon or align weapon but not haste, lead blades, and so forth.

Except it is apparently. I'm at work on my tablet, so sorry this won't be as nice and neat as the others, if you really need me to I'll do it up that way when I get home.

From the top...

A monk uses his fist, which is an unarmed attack. We know from the rules that unarmed attacks have their own special rules, such as provoking AoO's, doing non-lethal damage etc. Thankfully, the monk has Improved Unarmed Strike, which means he suffers no AoO for attacking, an make AoO's etc. The rules specifically say under "Armed" Unarmed Attacks to reference Natural Attacks. So, that means an unarmed strike is a natural attack.

But wait, the monk, as a class ability has more. Normally an unarmed attack does 1d3 damage, a monks does more and improves as he levels. Also, natural weapons are normally only able to be affected by certain kinds of magic, ones that specifically call out natural weapons. However, a monks unarmed attack can be targeted by spells that affect manufactured weapons or natural weapons both. It is an enhancement to the unarmed attack, it in no way replaces it, and then only for a certain category of spells.

So, the monks unarmed attack can do more damage, can be affected by a broader variety of magic effects, but it is still a natural weapon. Nothing in the description of the monks unarmed strike alters that.

So, haste. It targets a creature. Not a weapon, but a creature. So is the monk a valid target? Yes, as he is presumably a creature still. So, what benefits does he get? Well, his speed bonus is an enhancement bonus, so the greater bonus applies. He gets the +1 to various things that haste gives, as that bonus is untyped. No one debates these.

Now, the monk full attacks. As he is attacking unarmed, he is using a natural weapon. Does haste give a bonus attack for natural weapons on a full attack? Yes. So, the monk gets a bonus attack.

The only way he doesn't get a bonus attack for his unarmed attack is if his unarmed attack is somehow not a natural attack or manufactured weapon. Nothing in the monk description says it alters what kind of attack his unarmed attacks are. It expands his usage of it, it allows it to be a valid target for more spells, but it doesn't alter its type, or put any restrictions on it a normal unarmed attack doesn't already have.

So Ashiel, I'm curious, how exactly does the monk not benefit? If his unarmed attack is no longer an unarmed attack, then yes, as I said, the monk wouldn't be able to use feats that specifically call out for an unarmed attack because he doesn't have one. Haste did get errata applied, it has wording that lets it apply to both manufactured and natural weapons, so even if it did target the monks unarmed strike, his unarmed strike is a valid target.

@Lorekeeper: The haste bonus doesn't stack with other haste bonuses such as speed, all those are specifically called out. The ki bonus attack is not a haste bonus extra attack, if anything it is more akin to a swift action single attack at your highest attack bonus that happens independently of your full attack.


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Why all the Monk Haste?

Andoran

Stay classy!

On topic, is everyone now in agreement that the monk needs at minimum an attack bonus to unarmed, and likely an entire enhancement bonus?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@Ashiel and Krigare:

Maybe I'm missing something, but what are you arguing about, if both of you ultimately say haste grants the monk an extra punch?


LoreKeeper wrote:

@Ashiel and Krigare:

Maybe I'm missing something, but what are you arguing about, if both of you ultimately say haste grants the monk an extra punch?

Nay. I'm saying that haste grants a monk an extra attack with a natural OR manufactured weapon. Unarmed strike is NEITHER. The monk's class feature only treats it as such when it (IT being their unarmed strike) is targeted by an EFFECT that specifically targets NATURAL or MANUFACTURED weapons (capitalization is emphasis, not yelling). Haste does not do this. A monk cannot - legally - make an extra unarmed strike with haste (nor can anyone else for that matter).

If the monk is holding a kama, quarterstaff, nunchaku, or any other weapon he or she can make the extra attack with that manufactured weapon. If the monk has a claw, bite, or tentacle, they could make the attack with that natural weapon instead.

Sean K. Reynolds already noted that RAW monks cannot make unarmed strikes while hasted and it might get fixed one day, but that was over a year ago and the PRD has been updated a few times (including having Haste's text cleaned up) and yet the pieces preventing monks from attacking with unarmed strikes are still there.

Andoran

And I wonder what it has to do with the OP's question of why the Magus and Rogue don't have problems hitting and Monk's do

For the record, the answer is Magus can self buff as well as enhancing primary weapons. Rogues can focus on a single ability [Dex] and also enhance primary weapons.

Monks can enhance monk weapons at normal cost, but will still lag behind because they can't focus on a single ability or self buff.

Additionally unarmed focused monks can only enhance using AoMF which costs significantly more than regular weapon enhancement, caps at +5 and takes up a slot.

That is an on topic post for this thread. Maybe the other posts could find a nice home in a thread where they belong...


I must not be reading these two quotes correctly.

Monk Unarmed Strike CRB PRD wrote:


A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Haste CRB PRD wrote:


When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.


Haste does not enhance a weapon, it enhances a creature, so the monk unarmed strike text is irrelevant by strict RAW.


Axolotl wrote:

I must not be reading these two quotes correctly.

Monk Unarmed Strike CRB PRD wrote:


A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Haste CRB PRD wrote:


When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.

*facepalm*

Haste does not enhance or improve weapons. Notice the spell line. Targets 1 creature/level. You do not haste weapons. You haste creatures. If you are hasted and you drop you weapon you do not suddenly lose haste. Haste does not make your weapon a SPEED weapon. Haste has absolutely, positively, no effect on your weapons at all. It does not target, enhance, or improve your weapons. The haste effect allows the affected creature to at their option when full attacking make an additional attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. Those are the rules. You are given a choice. Natural or manufactured are the weapons you can use when hasted to make the extra attack. Unarmed strikes are neither. The spell is quite specific.

If it had said "One extra attack" alone then you'd smack folks with your unarmed strikes just fine, but it specifies that it must be a natural or manufactured. No unarmed strikes.

Which means that if you are a monk, you must take the extra attack with a manufactured weapon. If you are a monk emphasizing your unarmed strikes however (those things that increase in damage as you gain levels) then you get no extra attacks for those. If you want your extra attacks via boots of speed or a wizard's haste spell, you absolutely positively no arguing it must use a manufactured (or natural) weapon. So you need a kama, or a nunchaku, or a siangham, or some other monk weapon.


I would posit that the 'target' of the spell isn't the issue: it's the wording of the spell that trumps the target specificity. It mentions natural weapons; IUS counts as such, thus, Hasted Monk. Furthermore, there's precedent: Enlarge Person also only targets 1 creature, and that will improve a Monk, because he or she is now Large (or Medium). Haste improves a Monk because they are now Fast.


I'm going to agree with Krigare. RAW, it looks like Haste does in fact work with the Monk. The Unarmed Striked is treated as both a natural and manufactured weapon. I'd say that Haste effects the Monk, therefore, effects Unarmed Strike.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
Axolotl wrote:

I must not be reading these two quotes correctly.

Monk Unarmed Strike CRB PRD wrote:


A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Haste CRB PRD wrote:


When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.

*facepalm*

Haste does not enhance or improve weapons. Notice the spell line. Targets 1 creature/level. You do not haste weapons. You haste creatures. If you are hasted and you drop you weapon you do not suddenly lose haste. Haste does not make your weapon a SPEED weapon. Haste has absolutely, positively, no effect on your weapons at all. It does not target, enhance, or improve your weapons. The haste effect allows the affected creature to at their option when full attacking make an additional attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. Those are the rules. You are given a choice. Natural or manufactured are the weapons you can use when hasted to make the extra attack. Unarmed strikes are neither. The spell is quite specific.

Fun fact: magic fang targets a creature, not a weapon, and yet it enhances a creature's natural attacks. So the target line of the spell does not automatically mean that the spell effect cannot enhance a weapon.


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Krigare wrote:

So...your saying that attacking with a natural part of the body, because it is not specifically spelled out as a natural attack, is not a natural attack?

Ok...

That's pretty much the jist of it, and that's exactly how the rules, per RAW, are treated. Whether it makes sense or not.

Unarmed Strikes are not Natural Attacks.
Natural Attacks are not Unarmed Strikes.
For a non-Monk, there is never a situation where an Unarmed Strike gets treated as a Natural Attack or a Manufactured Weapon.
For a Monk, there is only one specific sort of instance where an Unarmed Strike is treated as a Natural Attack or a Manufactured Weapon, and the Haste spell is not part of this one instance.

Dem's the facts.

========================

And getting truly back "on topic," most people still think a Rogue has trouble hitting. Yes, they have an easier time than the Monk, but they still struggle with hitting. A Magus is only going to be +1, maybe +2 ahead of a Rogue.
I just don't see how a +2 difference makes a class go from, "I have such a hard time hitting things! Good thing I have my skills to back me up," to, "I hit just fine, kthx."


Neo2151 wrote:
Krigare wrote:

So...your saying that attacking with a natural part of the body, because it is not specifically spelled out as a natural attack, is not a natural attack?

Ok...

That's pretty much the jist of it, and that's exactly how the rules, per RAW, are treated. Whether it makes sense or not.

Unarmed Strikes are not Natural Attacks.
Natural Attacks are not Unarmed Strikes.
For a non-Monk, there is never a situation where an Unarmed Strike gets treated as a Natural Attack or a Manufactured Weapon.
For a Monk, there is only one specific sort of instance where an Unarmed Strike is treated as a Natural Attack or a Manufactured Weapon, and the Haste spell is not part of this one instance.

Dem's the facts.

========================

And getting truly back "on topic," most people still think a Rogue has trouble hitting. Yes, they have an easier time than the Monk, but they still struggle with hitting. A Magus is only going to be +1, maybe +2 ahead of a Rogue.
I just don't see how a +2 difference makes a class go from, "I have such a hard time hitting things! Good thing I have my skills to back me up," to, "I hit just fine, kthx."

Please, point to where the rules specifically say that an unarmed attack is not a natural attack. If every little thing needs to be spelled out exactly and in specific, then there are large swathes of the game that RAW has no specifics for, the rule books aren't big enough.


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Krigare wrote:
Please, point to where the rules specifically say that an unarmed attack is not a natural attack. If every little thing needs to be spelled out exactly and in specific, then there are large swathes of the game that RAW has no specifics for, the rule books aren't big enough.

A natural attack is a specific game term that applies certain qualities to the attack when used as part of a full attack or when it is the only natural attack a creature possesses. Unarmed strikes are not given this quality.

You can house rule it so that unarmed strikes may be used as secondary attacks with manufactured weapons at a -5 penalty, or that unarmed strikes use 1.5x your strength modifier if you have no "other natural attacks", but that is not how they function. Period.


Krigare wrote:
Please, point to where the rules specifically say that an unarmed attack is not a natural attack. If every little thing needs to be spelled out exactly and in specific, then there are large swathes of the game that RAW has no specifics for, the rule books aren't big enough.

$@@&$*# $*@# *$#@*$(*@#*@(

PRD-Equipment wrote:
Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons: Anybody but a druid, monk, or wizard is proficient with all simple weapons. Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all simple and all martial weapons. Characters of other classes are proficient with an assortment of simple weapons and possibly some martial or even exotic weapons. All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race. A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.

Declared difference.

PRD-Combat wrote:

Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

Declared difference. Unarmed strikes also do not by any means work anything like natural attacks (or else you would also not be able to make iterative attacks with them).

PRD-Bestiary wrote:

Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.

Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

Natural Attacks by Size Natural Attack
Base Damage by Size*
Damage Type Attack Type
Fine Dim. Tiny Small Medium Large Huge Garg. Col.
Bite 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 4d6 B/S/P Primary
Claw — 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 B/S Primary
Gore 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 4d6 P Primary
Hoof, Tentacle, Wing — 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 B Secondary
Pincers, Tail Slap 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 4d6 B Secondary
Slam — 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 B Primary
Sting — 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 P Primary
Talons — 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 S Primary
Other — 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 B/S/P Secondary
* Individual creatures vary from this value as appropriate.

The Damage Type column refers to the sort of damage that the natural attack typically deals: bludgeoning (B), slashing (S), or piercing (P). Some attacks deal damage of more than one type, depending on the creature. In such cases all the damage is considered to be of all listed types for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Some fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and outsiders do not possess natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes, but treat them as weapons for the purpose of determining attack bonuses, and they must use the two-weapon fighting rules when making attacks with both hands. See Table: Natural Attacks by Size for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.

Format: bite +5 (1d6+1), 2 claws +5 (1d4+2), 4 tentacles +0 (1d4+1); Location: Melee and Ranged.

...........

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:
Gignere wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
It's worth it if you are often fighting evil creatures, I think, but generally I'd take the +3 weapon every time. The only enhancements that are worth it are those that trade each +1 for roughly twice the damage in all circumstances. Keen is worth it on a weapon with an 18-20 threat, it's also worth it if you have a bonus to otherwise boost the weapon - like a paladin's divine bond.

It's worth it when you are capped at +5 (Which would make it never worth it for a monk w/ AoMF) and if you find it, but giving up +2 to hit and +2 to damage against some enemies is a lot to give up. My point is that it was a cherry picked build.

I agree with you on Keen, and that would be something where if I saw "Keen Scimatars" I wouldn't blink.

It's not cherry picked when both the hypothetical fighter and monk got holy. Unless you think that having a +3 weapon while the monk has a +2 and both not punching DR is going to make the monk's relative DPR that much better? My point of giving both holy weapons was to actually advantage the monk, the THF's per hit damage in my model is 34 damage per hit whereas the monk is at 23 for the first hit and 20 for subsequent (Dragon Style and Ferocity).

DR 10/Good will favor the fighter over the monk if both have no way of going through that DR. Just plugged in my a flat -10 damage in my model. The THF will drop DPR from 117 to about 89. The monk will drop from 72 to 37 (assumes both haste and ki is up).

Also keep in mind haste doesn't work on unarmed strikes.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a

manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the
purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve
either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Was this changed at some point?


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+1 Ashiel!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd like to add to this haste discussion in this form: the core rules (and other rule books) do not exhaustively declare everything within their rules description at every point; and conversely some things get mentioned unnecessarily at some points. It's because of this that the rules take on a subjective context.

From my view: the basic observation is that unarmed strikes are listed along with other weapons (but not natural attacks) in the melee weapons table in the core rules. This implies that unarmed strikes in general function just as all other melee weapons unless where specifically stated otherwise (such as the average PC not being considered armed with his fist). As such the implication is that unarmed strikes (being in general like other melee weapons) benefit from the additional attack granted by haste.

Just imagine the bloat and reading pain if we had to add a "and unarmed strikes" to every relevant entry where an attack is mentioned.

This is an example of duck typing (if it walks, talks and looks like a duck...)

Assistant Software Developer

I removed some posts and the replies to them.


This goes back to some of the issues monks have elsewhere. They do not really "fit" in the system as it is designed. Strangely, despite being in the game for about 3 editions now, plus a few editions before that, the monk still appears "tacked on" or "pressed in" to the system. Monks are generally considered to be the premiere and primary unarmed martial characters, yet as others point out they are really bad at this. Their fluff does not fit their features. They are repeatedly punished for fighting unarmed, so they must fall back to using monk weapons. Weapons which I might add are horrible (seriously a kama is mechanically identical to being a club, except it has slashing damage and no range increment).

An NPC warrior with some cheap gear can outpace an equal level Monk at being a martial character throughout most of the game. It's not even hard. Rangers and such don't even have to specialize to do it. A ranger can out-damage an unarmed monk while using a longsword and shield, only the ranger can drop his shield and 2 hand the longsword if he wands to obliterate his foe.

The problem is then people come back to "well monks aren't supposed to be direct warriors", but then we retort with "then what are they supposed to be, because they can do nothing else".

Silver Crusade

Monks are considered armed so they do get the extra attack from Haste.

Fighters would get it while wearing a gauntlet.


Ashiel wrote:
Whole lotta stuff that doesn't say what he/she thinks

Yes, now, I don't seem to recall saying that an unarmed strike was a natural weapon. I said it was a natural attack. Please, point to me, where it says an unarmed strike IS NOT A NATURAL ATTACK.

There is a difference, and since we are being excessively picky about wording, not one single sentence in anything you bolded states that an unarmed attack is not a natural attack.

I'll give you some help here, the PRD does say this:

PRD wrote:
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. [b]A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).[b]

Bolded the important sentence, with italics for the really important part. Now then, if such things do not count as natural attacks, why would they waste ink and word count telling you to look at natural attacks?

They wouldn't.

So...a monk (specifically called out!!!!), a character with Improved Unarmed Strike, casters delivering touch spells, creatures attacking with natural physical weapons are all natural attacks. Haste works with natural attacks. Haste works with unarmed strikes and a monks unarmed strike.

Now, anything else or can we go on to something else?


shallowsoul wrote:

Monks are considered armed so they do get the extra attack from Haste.

Fighters would get it while wearing a gauntlet.

Armed does not a manufactured weapon make. Are you seriously just trolling like the other poster thinks? Because I think you are too. You are "armed" with a natural attack too, but it does not make natural attacks (or unarmed strikes) manufactured weapons.

God, and I'm accused of derailing threads. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. I have quoted more than a page of text from the PRD on the subject, walked you through it step by step. Explained not all things gray are elephants. What more do you want man?

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