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If Monks have trouble hitting...


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Neo2151 wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Those are some big hands.
Again, this is entirely your opinion. Nothing in the feat description says the appendage with the natural attack gets bigger somehow. Please stop spreading misinformation as if it were fact.

"The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category."

Carrying around natural attacks as if from a creature one size larger.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Improved_Natural_Attack

Ha ha!


The equalizer wrote:

Stacking the improved natural attack feat for the monk. It depends on where the dm draws the line, what monstrous feats they allow to combine with classes. The same can be said for ability focus, it can be applied to one invocation for the warlock. Can it also be applied to stunning fist? Some dms will allow it, others won't. What particular aspects of the game the gaming group is so desperately trying to fulfill is the pivotal point.

There is nothing in the rules saying INA cannot be combined with the monk's unarmed damage. Going by the logic that everything is allowed unless not explicitly stated in the rules, it is a possible option.

<sigh>

If you are medium and your unarmed becomes as a large monster, you have bought a lot of extra damage, all the time, including with your flurry, with one feat.

1d8 instead of 1d6, 2d6 instead of 1d8, 2d8 instead of 1d10, 3d6 instead of 2d6 and so on.


Whether you think it's potentially "too good" or not is irrelevant. Also, your definition of "a lot" is likely different from most people. The difference between d6 and d8? 1 average damage. The difference between 2d6 and 3d6? 2.5 average damage. Considering you can only take the feat once, that's really not a big deal. (Especially for a low crit weapon like an Unarmed Strike.)


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Neo2151 wrote:
Whether you think it's potentially "too good" or not is irrelevant. Also, your definition of "a lot" is likely different from most people. The difference between d6 and d8? 1 average damage. The difference between 2d6 and 3d6? 2.5 average damage. Considering you can only take the feat once, that's really not a big deal. (Especially for a low crit weapon like an Unarmed Strike.)

It is a big deal when you stack it with enlarge person and lead blades.


Yes, you're right. Two rounds of buffing tends to have impressive results. What's your point?


So, is it a big deal using lead blades and enlarge person when usimg a two handed weapon?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You know, technically those spells also work their magic on the monk's unarmed strike.


Neo2151 wrote:
Yes, you're right. Two rounds of buffing tends to have impressive results. What's your point?

You can permanent enlarge.

Shadow Lodge

Gignere wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
Yes, you're right. Two rounds of buffing tends to have impressive results. What's your point?
You can permanent enlarge.

you can also be dispelled, whats your point?

i will say this, a monk of the 4 winds is bad enough when mixed with drunken master and 4 levels of fighter for vital strike chain. lead blades and enlarge person is a massive hit of damage x4(time stop ability). improved natural attack would make that the highest full round damage in the game lol.

but anyway, i would like a gnereic to hit, that doesnt apply to just a weapon attacks, unarmed or otherwise. that would mean better maneuver rolls for monks, and thats something i can get behind.


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Alot of additional damage with one feat is indeed a point which makes it allowable questionable. Similar to why certain gamers argue for using a 5 foot jump to cover additional ground. Simply because there is nothing in the rules explicitly stating it is not allowed. Sad, but loopholes in the system being exploited happen and always will.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There is a simple maxim that is that if a feat is a 'must have' for a class with no down-side, then it should either be a class feature or at worst a bonus feat, or else it shouldn't be there (certain fighter feats being an exception as the bonus feats ARE the fighter's major class feature). In 3.5 it was used to pump unarmed damage because it was the only way to make your rare hits count. Problem is that in taking it away, Paizo didn't repair the problem of not being able to hit accurately, so now you can hit as rarely but it most likely doesn't count.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

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Gignere wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
Yes, you're right. Two rounds of buffing tends to have impressive results. What's your point?
You can permanent enlarge.

And not fit through doors.

Can we at least agree on the following.

1. A unarmed monk will hit significantly less often that an armed rogue/ninja.
2. An unarmed monk will do less damage per attack on average than an armed rogue (given most times an armed rogue will be positioning for sneak attack)
3. All of the other 3/4 BaB classes can cast spells that self buff them to allow them to hit significantly more often than an unarmed monk.
4. All of the other 3/4 BaB classes could, also, just cast spells or use spell abilities that are useful to themselves or the party.

It is a turn based game. The question is what can you add to the group on your turn.

The unarmed monk hits less often, for less damage. It is better defensively, but it also needs to put itself in harms way more than any other class, and has less self healing than the other 3/4 caster classes with the exception of the Rogue and Magus, both of which have much higher offensive capacity.

Can we agree on the above, and if not show me an unarmed monk build that demonstrates otherwise.

All of this being said, if the unarmed monk could hit more reliably, then they have a number of options that would put them on par to slightly ahead of the rogue on effectiveness on a given turn.

Fix this, you fix the class. And this is a really, really, easy fix if you just let the unarmed monk enhance their weapon like every other class can.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I agree with ciretose that fixing enhancement (to hit at least) is a big step, but I think the answer is a little more complicated. The monk will still be down on hitting, thanks to MAD, or else will have sacrificed his damage or AC in order to keep up with hitting. The monk's lower damage output than the rogue or indeed many other classes like the magus or even the bard (bardic performance works on the bard himself, remember) and the nature of unarmed strike means that despite ki-strike he can't bypass or over top DR as often as other classes, so a good DR will still shut him down even if he hits. Ergo, he needs a means of bypassing DR once you have fixed MAD and enhancement.

Some of the monk's other abilities need a good hard look too, as they are hardly inspiring or in most circumstances even useful.


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Dabbler wrote:

I agree with ciretose that fixing enhancement (to hit at least) is a big step, but I think the answer is a little more complicated. The monk will still be down on hitting, thanks to MAD, or else will have sacrificed his damage or AC in order to keep up with hitting. The monk's lower damage output than the rogue or indeed many other classes like the magus or even the bard (bardic performance works on the bard himself, remember) and the nature of unarmed strike means that despite ki-strike he can't bypass or over top DR as often as other classes, so a good DR will still shut him down even if he hits. Ergo, he needs a means of bypassing DR once you have fixed MAD and enhancement.

Some of the monk's other abilities need a good hard look too, as they are hardly inspiring or in most circumstances even useful.

This is probably the best summary of the monk issues I have read. It also illustrates something I've been trying to say.

Any fix for the monk isn't going to be one little buff. They need several abilities tweak to work better together so the class has more synergy with itself. Ideally it gets done so the class has better synergy with existing magic items already out there for it(not naming names on that one.)

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

I think if the unarmed monk can reliably hit, they can do some damage (less than rogue, but enough) and have other abilities such as stunning fist and manuvers that can come into play enough to make them offensively appropriate.

I think with that, they are still going to be very solid defensively, becoming very strong defensively at higher levels.

I think the other abilities are options, and options are good.

The question is what can the monk do in a given encounter and how does that measure against what other classes can do.

If my monk can hit reliably, even if stunning fist only has a 25% success rate we can expect them to neutralize a given enemy one out of every four rounds for a round AND throw in a bit of damage.

That is a monk anyone would welcome in my party of 4.

The monk is more mobile than other melee classes, it has better saves, and more immunities. It could have a role as a scout/mage slayer IF it can hit reliably.

I would rather add a little bit and see if it works than try and re-write the class. I like playing a monk, with one exception.

I want to be able to hit as often as the others at the table.


ciretose wrote:

I think if the unarmed monk can reliably hit, they can do some damage (less than rogue, but enough) and have other abilities such as stunning fist and manuvers that can come into play enough to make them offensively appropriate.

I think with that, they are still going to be very solid defensively, becoming very strong defensively at higher levels.

I think the other abilities are options, and options are good.

The question is what can the monk do in a given encounter and how does that measure against what other classes can do.

If my monk can hit reliably, even if stunning fist only has a 25% success rate we can expect them to neutralize a given enemy one out of every four rounds for a round AND throw in a bit of damage.

That is a monk anyone would welcome in my party of 4.

The monk is more mobile than other melee classes, it has better saves, and more immunities. It could have a role as a scout/mage slayer IF it can hit reliably.

I would rather add a little bit and see if it works than try and re-write the class. I like playing a monk, with one exception.

I want to be able to hit as often as the others at the table.

If they trade out Tongue of Sun and Moon and got Weapon Training the monk will be pretty much fixed.


Dabbler wrote:
Allow Wholeness of Body to do something useful - like restore lost ability score points, negative levels, or such. Or change the focus so it can act as DR, maybe, or fast healing for a minute

I like these ideas!

Dabbler wrote:
Make Dimensional Agility and it's tree be monk bonus feats so Abundant Step is actually useful...

Dimensional Agility should be built right into Abundant Step.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

Gignere wrote:


If they trade out Tongue of Sun and Moon and got Weapon Training the monk will be pretty much fixed.

I could be ok with this, although devil's advocate this may be a bit too much considering it gives the bonus with no cost.

Weapon training is very under-rated, and may be too valuable.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
I think if the unarmed monk can reliably hit, they can do some damage (less than rogue, but enough) and have other abilities such as stunning fist and manuvers that can come into play enough to make them offensively appropriate.

Problem with stunning fist is that to work you have to hit AND do damage, so DR shuts this down. Trust me, I've been there.

ciretose wrote:
If my monk can hit reliably, even if stunning fist only has a 25% success rate we can expect them to neutralize a given enemy one out of every four rounds for a round AND throw in a bit of damage.

In my experiences at higher level, the monk's stunning fist doesn't work 25% of the time. On average, everything I have hit with it above 10th level has beaten the DC on a '3' or better. Unlike casters, your DC-stat is not the one you will be spending all your boosts on, it's your hitting stat.

ciretose wrote:
The monk is more mobile than other melee classes,

Absolutely true.

ciretose wrote:
it has better saves, and more immunities.

Except for the paladin. Paladin has more immunities (fear, charm, disease) than the monk (disease, poison), and he often has better saves (divine grace makes up for the one weak save they get by far), and easily the same AC. Ranger is not hard to put on a par with the monk either.

ciretose wrote:
It could have a role as a scout/mage slayer IF it can hit reliably.

Mage slayer...seriously? Every melee class is a mage slayer if they can get close to the mage. Monks are slightly more mobile is all, and it's hardly a niche that is needed often.

Scout can work, with a few traits and a half-way decent intelligence, but the monk really doesn't have the ranks and proficiencies for it otherwise.

ciretose wrote:
I would rather add a little bit and see if it works than try and re-write the class. I like playing a monk, with one exception.

I think this is a good idea, definitely.

ciretose wrote:
I want to be able to hit as often as the others at the table.

Me too.

Gignere wrote:
If they trade out Tongue of Sun and Moon and got Weapon Training the monk will be pretty much fixed.

Yes, that ability always bugged me. I mean, why? The monk is not otherwise geared for talking. However, weapon training isn't going to happen it would boost the monk's unarmed damage too much.

Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Dimensional Agility should be built right into Abundant Step.

It should have been, but now it's out as a feat, and changing it now breaks the point of the feat. The feat and it's tree should be monk bonus feats, though. At least then you could take the feat at 10th and get some use out of it when you get Abundant Step at 12th, before the campaign ends.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

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Monks can be the mage slayers because of mobility, saves, and Touch AC defense. At higher levels Dimension Door with dimensional agility makes monks the mage slayers when you remember Stunning fist is against Fort save.

The Save DC for stunning fist is functionally the same save DC as the highest level spell of a caster of the same level. If they hit, they have a success rate equal to a SoS caster with a casting ability score equal to the monks wisdom. By the chart in the bestiary, they will succeed fairly often if they hit. It won't work well on the high fort enemies, but that is where the rest of the party comes in to go after low will saves.

If you can add enhancement bonus to unarmed strike, you address the DR problem completely.

I think if you built out a monk that has the brass knuckles by old rule, you are going to see a monk that is fine. I get why they changed that, as it was crappy fluff, but I think if the monk can self enhance unarmed, the monk is fine as is.

I know I am a broken record, but I want someone on both sides of the arguement to show me I'm wrong in a build before I stop saying it. :)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
Monks can be the mage slayers because of mobility, saves, and Touch AC defense. At higher levels Dimension Door with dimensional agility makes monks the mage slayers when you remember Stunning fist is against Fort save.

Swap abundant step for 'fly' and wholeness of body for 'see invisibility' and I'll concede the point. The best counter to a mage is another mage. Especially as I spent last session trying and failing to even connect with a buffed-up caster until one of the party casters got in a couple of effective Greater Dispel Magics.

ciretose wrote:
The Save DC for stunning fist is functionally the same save DC as the highest level spell of a caster of the same level. If they hit, they have a success rate equal to a SoS caster with a casting ability score equal to the monks wisdom.

That's where the comparison falls down, because the monk's wisdom won't be as high as a casting stat, because it is secondary to the monk's hitting stat.

ciretose wrote:
By the chart in the bestiary, they will succeed fairly often if they hit. It won't work well on the high fort enemies, but that is where the rest of the party comes in to go after low will saves.

In theory, my experience is sadly counter to this.

ciretose wrote:
If you can add enhancement bonus to unarmed strike, you address the DR problem completely.

Only partially, I think. Other combat casters rely on raw damage to overcome DR half the time, and that is an option the monk seems to be lacking still.

ciretose wrote:
I think if you built out a monk that has the brass knuckles by old rule, you are going to see a monk that is fine. I get why they changed that, as it was crappy fluff, but I think if the monk can self enhance unarmed, the monk is fine as is.

Problem is that the same reason they nerfed bras knuckles is the same reason that enhancing the monk's body is not going to be an option.

ciretose wrote:
I know I am a broken record, but I want someone on both sides of the arguement to show me I'm wrong in a build before I stop saying it. :)

I think you are partially right, but there are practical issues in application that you don't appreciate fully.


ciretose wrote:
Gignere wrote:


If they trade out Tongue of Sun and Moon and got Weapon Training the monk will be pretty much fixed.

I could be ok with this, although devil's advocate this may be a bit too much considering it gives the bonus with no cost.

Weapon training is very under-rated, and may be too valuable.

Which is why I have become a proponent for a weapons training-like feature for attack rolls and combat maneuver checks only . . . not damage. Applied only to unarmed strikes and special monk weapons usable in a flurry of blows.

As far as the enhancement bonus goes? I think it should be a feature of the ki pool, a REAL ki strike in other words. Monks gain ki pool at 4th level, so what I would do is this: push the ki pool back to 5th level. Hold on, wait and let me finish. With ki strike, as long as the monk has at least one point of ki remaining in his ki pool, his unarmed strike gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. At 8th, 11th, 14th, and 16th level, this enhancement bonus would increase by +1. It would function as a magic weapon for the purpose of attacking incorporeal creatures and bypassing damage reduction. At 16th level, the monk would ignore hardness of less of than 20, just like the regular ki strike-adamantine does now.

Up through 11th level, he would be on par with other classes in getting his enhancement bonus, although that progression would slow down above that (other classes would be able to afford a single +4 weapon at 13th level, compared to 14th, and a single +5 weapon at 15th level, compared to 16th, if going by WBL and using no more than 25% wealth on a single item).

Combined with weapons training (attack rolls and combat maneuver checks only) that will put the monk 2 points behind an equal level fighter, before any feats or ability scores are factored in. Against a barbarian, paladin, or ranger not using their special abilities (rage, smite, or favored enemy), the monk will be 2 points behind at 1st-4th, 1 point behind 5th-8th, equal at 9th-12th, 1 point ahead at 13th-15th, and 2 points ahead at 16th plus.

Against the barbarian, paladin, or ranger using two weapons, the monk is even at 1st-4th, +1 at 5th-8th, +2 at 9th-12th, +3 at 13th-15th, and +4 at 16th plus. Once again, before any special abilities, ability scores, or feats (assuming the barbarian, paladin, or ranger have the TWF chain, that is).

The monk stays behind the fighter (except when the fighter is using two-weapons, where he is equal) and effectively on par with a single-weapon barbarian, paladin, or ranger exclusively of strength, feats, and special abilities.

Without the weapon training bonus, the monk's damage still remains behind, so he is balanced against the martial classes.

Just putting out some semi-random thoughts here.

MA


Dabbler wrote:
Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Dimensional Agility should be built right into Abundant Step.
It should have been, but now it's out as a feat, and changing it now breaks the point of the feat. The feat and it's tree should be monk bonus feats, though. At least then you could take the feat at 10th and get some use out of it when you get Abundant Step at 12th, before the campaign ends.

The feat still has a point for use with the spell, especially as Abundant step already is better than the spell (being a move action which can be used after a standard action) and therefore gains less from the feat than the spell in a sense.

I'm not fond of having to pay a feat tax to make Abundant step work like expected ("move action").

Just let the monk gain Abundant step together with Dimensional Agility at 12th level if you don't want to reword Abundant step and the feat.


ciretose wrote:
Gignere wrote:


If they trade out Tongue of Sun and Moon and got Weapon Training the monk will be pretty much fixed.

I could be ok with this, although devil's advocate this may be a bit too much considering it gives the bonus with no cost.

Weapon training is very under-rated, and may be too valuable.

I built a DPR model using excel and after plugging in 3/3 weapon training at level 11 for the monk, if he blows ki for an extra attack and assuming it stacks the monk is at 72 DPR, not blowing ki 61 DPR. This is over 3 rounds and the first round is assumed to be charge and standard. This is for a strength DPR monk, with dragon style and ferocity.

The baseline TH fighter I built and modeled at level 11 has a DPR of 90. So giving monk weapon training will not make them OP. It actually only makes them competitive with pouncing druids.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

@Dabbler - Abundant step followed by a stunning fist is better than fly, IMHO.

Respectfully, if there is something I don't fully appreciate, show your work in a build.

If a 10th level monk with 20 wisdom uses stunning fist, the Save is 20.

A 10th level wizards fort save is +3. Even with a +5 Cloak they fail more than 1/2 if you hit.


ciretose wrote:

@Dabbler - Abundant step followed by a stunning fist is better than fly, IMHO.

Respectfully, if there is something I don't fully appreciate, show your work in a build.

If a 10th level monk with 20 wisdom uses stunning fist, the Save is 20.

A 10th level wizards fort save is +3. Even with a +5 Cloak they fail more than 1/2 if you hit.

That is presuming no feats and a base Constitution of 10. It is also an 'easy' encounter. It is more likely to be facing off against a 12th-14th level wizard, being a 10th level monk as part of a party. That puts the base save at either +4 or +5 (+9 or +10 with a Cloak of Resistance +5). Even a 14 Con (and really would you NOT have at least a 14 Con as a wizard? I would not.) puts you at +11 or +12. Great fortitude makes that a +13 or +14, while Improved Great Fortitude lets you reroll 1 failure a day.

+13 or +14 vs. a DC of 20 with a free reroll. The 12th-13th level wiz saves on a 7 or above, while the 14th level one saves on a 6. That is not good odds for the monk . . . and it depends on being able to (1) locate the wizard (probably invisible), (2) get to the wizard (if he is flying, that could be a problem), (3) hit the wizard (especially if he has blur or displacement up, or, heaven forbid, mirror image, if not both defenses), and (4) cause damage (hope he doesn't have that stoneskin active). Then he gets to make his save, and if he fails, gets a reroll.

Not good odds at all.

Let's take a look at another CR14 opponent: an adult red dragon. Fort save is +16 (so he makes that save on a 4+), with a CMD of 39, 43 vs. trip, more than 200 hits points, an AC of 29, and attacks that hover around +25 or +23. And he casts spells as a 7th level sorceror (giving him 3rd level spells) so he can add haste, greater invisibility, mirror image, blur, etc., etc., to his defenses.

That encounter is an epic challenge (+4 CR) for a party of four. A high level challenge (+3 CR) for six. Either way, a monk is hard-pressed to contribute in this fight, depending on build. He probably cannot stun the dragon, he sure ain't tripping it or grappling it, and his AC is high enough that he might not land that many hits (assuming he gets through the dragon's attacks of opportunity offered by his 10' reach . . . 15' with his bite).

MA


ciretose wrote:

@Dabbler - Abundant step followed by a stunning fist is better than fly, IMHO.

Respectfully, if there is something I don't fully appreciate, show your work in a build.

If a 10th level monk with 20 wisdom uses stunning fist, the Save is 20.

A 10th level wizards fort save is +3. Even with a +5 Cloak they fail more than 1/2 if you hit.

Since your bringing up level 10 wizards, here you go:

With a 20 point buy I can get Str 7 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 17 Wis 10 Cha 7 before racial modifiers.

Assuming I've got no racial mods to Con, at 10th level, before feats, talents, or magic items, I get a +6 Fort save.

Now, assuming I'm slightly paranoid but not stupid wizard, I get a belt of physical might+2(dex and con), and a cloak or resistance +4. At that point, before feats/talents/racial abilities/random spells I'm at a +11 Fort save, meaning just over half the time I make my save.

If I took a Fort save boosting talent, I'm at +12, with the great fortitude feat I'm looking at +14.

That doesn't count any morale bonuses, active spells, nothing. Just static effects a wizard can get at 10th level without gimping themselves. You throw on heroism and I'm looking at at +16 Fort save, if I have a weapon with the courageous enchantment, that goes up at least to +17, so I'd need a 3 or better to save against that DC 20 stun.

And yes, I have played a wizard like what I am talking about.


master arminas wrote:
push the ki pool back to 5th level. Hold on, wait and let me finish. With ki strike, as long as the monk has at least one point of ki remaining in his ki pool, his unarmed strike gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. At 8th, 11th, 14th, and 16th level, this enhancement bonus would increase by +1.

No need to push the ki pool back to 5th level. Just decouple the introduction of ki strike from the introduction of the ki pool.


Aren't PC abilities that require saves normally terrible? The ranger's capstone has the same DC as a monk's stunning fist. At level 20 he'll be looking at a DC 22-25 fort save.


master arminas wrote:
ciretose wrote:
A 10th level wizards fort save is +3. Even with a +5 Cloak they fail more than 1/2 if you hit.

That is presuming no feats and a base Constitution of 10. It is also an 'easy' encounter. It is more likely to be facing off against a 12th-14th level wizard, being a 10th level monk as part of a party. That puts the base save at either +4 or +5 (+9 or +10 with a Cloak of Resistance +5). Even a 14 Con (and really would you NOT have at least a 14 Con as a wizard? I would not.) puts you at +11 or +12. Great fortitude makes that a +13 or +14, while Improved Great Fortitude lets you reroll 1 failure a day.

The fort save of a 14th level wizard is +4, not +5. Giving him a +5 Cloak of resistance (which would require 13.5 % of his WBL, so actually I'd rather expect a +4 cloak) he'd have a save of +9. A 14 Con might indeed be likely, so we are looking at +11.

Now, Great fortitude is quite unlikely IMHO. Why? A wizard does not have many feats (10 if he is human) and as a wizard I'd rather take feats like Improved initiative, Spell focus, Greater Spell focus, Augment Summoning, Spell Penetration, Spell Specialization, Metamagic feats and possibly Item creation feats, i.e. feats centering on improving my magic abilities.

So we have a +11 vs. 20 which means a 40% success rate for stunning fist. Quite good, I'd say.

True, you have to find him, hit him etc. But other characters have to do the same, so there is no special disadvantage for being a monk.

With regards to the red dragon example: Ciretose explicitly talked about taking out wizards with stunning fist because of their bad fortitude save. Yes, stunning fist is no silver bullet and that is great. Silver bullets are boring.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

master arminas wrote:
ciretose wrote:

@Dabbler - Abundant step followed by a stunning fist is better than fly, IMHO.

Respectfully, if there is something I don't fully appreciate, show your work in a build.

If a 10th level monk with 20 wisdom uses stunning fist, the Save is 20.

A 10th level wizards fort save is +3. Even with a +5 Cloak they fail more than 1/2 if you hit.

That is presuming no feats and a base Constitution of 10. It is also an 'easy' encounter. It is more likely to be facing off against a 12th-14th level wizard, being a 10th level monk as part of a party. That puts the base save at either +4 or +5 (+9 or +10 with a Cloak of Resistance +5). Even a 14 Con (and really would you NOT have at least a 14 Con as a wizard? I would not.) puts you at +11 or +12. Great fortitude makes that a +13 or +14, while Improved Great Fortitude lets you reroll 1 failure a day.

And presuming a 25k item with a 62k WBL :)

A wizard has +3. Burn a feat +5, add some con, +7 and then add a +2 cloak and you are still failing more than 50% when you miss against a 20 Wis Monk.

Stop pretending that stunning fist isn't a valuable tool...if you can actually hit.

Schrodinger's Wizard is the surest sign you aren't trying to have a serious discussion.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

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Krigare wrote:
ciretose wrote:

@Dabbler - Abundant step followed by a stunning fist is better than fly, IMHO.

Respectfully, if there is something I don't fully appreciate, show your work in a build.

If a 10th level monk with 20 wisdom uses stunning fist, the Save is 20.

A 10th level wizards fort save is +3. Even with a +5 Cloak they fail more than 1/2 if you hit.

Since your bringing up level 10 wizards, here you go:

With a 20 point buy I can get Str 7 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 17 Wis 10 Cha 7 before racial modifiers.

Assuming I've got no racial mods to Con, at 10th level, before feats, talents, or magic items, I get a +6 Fort save.

Now, assuming I'm slightly paranoid but not stupid wizard, I get a belt of physical might+2(dex and con), and a cloak or resistance +4. At that point, before feats/talents/racial abilities/random spells I'm at a +11 Fort save, meaning just over half the time I make my save.

If I took a Fort save boosting talent, I'm at +12, with the great fortitude feat I'm looking at +14.

That doesn't count any morale bonuses, active spells, nothing. Just static effects a wizard can get at 10th level without gimping themselves. You throw on heroism and I'm looking at at +16 Fort save, if I have a weapon with the courageous enchantment, that goes up at least to +17, so I'd need a 3 or better to save against that DC 20 stun.

And yes, I have played a wizard like what I am talking about.

Show your work.

Cloak of Resistance +4 is 16k
Belt of Physical might is 10k

You've spend about 1/2 your WBL and spent 1/3 of your feats.

Built it out or it's Schrodingers.


For builds, it is an idea to leave magic items out of it. Their availability will depend with the setting, dm and crowd, and we can see the mechanics and effects without the magic items interfering.


ciretose wrote:
Krigare wrote:
ciretose wrote:

@Dabbler - Abundant step followed by a stunning fist is better than fly, IMHO.

Respectfully, if there is something I don't fully appreciate, show your work in a build.

If a 10th level monk with 20 wisdom uses stunning fist, the Save is 20.

A 10th level wizards fort save is +3. Even with a +5 Cloak they fail more than 1/2 if you hit.

Since your bringing up level 10 wizards, here you go:

With a 20 point buy I can get Str 7 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 17 Wis 10 Cha 7 before racial modifiers.

Assuming I've got no racial mods to Con, at 10th level, before feats, talents, or magic items, I get a +6 Fort save.

Now, assuming I'm slightly paranoid but not stupid wizard, I get a belt of physical might+2(dex and con), and a cloak or resistance +4. At that point, before feats/talents/racial abilities/random spells I'm at a +11 Fort save, meaning just over half the time I make my save.

If I took a Fort save boosting talent, I'm at +12, with the great fortitude feat I'm looking at +14.

That doesn't count any morale bonuses, active spells, nothing. Just static effects a wizard can get at 10th level without gimping themselves. You throw on heroism and I'm looking at at +16 Fort save, if I have a weapon with the courageous enchantment, that goes up at least to +17, so I'd need a 3 or better to save against that DC 20 stun.

And yes, I have played a wizard like what I am talking about.

Show your work.

Cloak of Resistance +4 is 16k
Belt of Physical might is 10k

You've spend about 1/2 your WBL and spent 1/3 of your feats.

Built it out or it's Schrodingers.

Wow. This from the guy who was throwing out a 25k magic item on a 10th level character. And its 1/4 feats spent, 1/5 if human. I just threw up a framework to show your Schrodingers monk a little bit of viable math that he can't stun me reliably. You really want me to fully build a character out just to prove your
Quote:

If a 10th level monk with 20 wisdom uses stunning fist, the Save is 20.

A 10th level wizards fort save is +3. Even with a +5 Cloak they fail more than 1/2 if you hit.

comment even more wrong?

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

I threw it out as a max, not a min. The best resistance bonus you can add is +5.

The problem with being devil's advocate is occasionally you get called out to show you work.

That just happened to you.

You have two options. Post a build or don't.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
For builds, it is an idea to leave magic items out of it. Their availability will depend with the setting, dm and crowd, and we can see the mechanics and effects without the magic items interfering.

The point is stunning fist can be effective, if you can hit.

My argument is the only real problem with the unarmed monk is that they need to be able to hit. If you allow them to enhance as other 3/4 BaB classes can, they will be able to hit relatively on par with the other 3/4 BaB classes.

Whatever lag that comes from self buffing and MaD is within the acceptable range for me, considering the defensive bonuses, number of attacks, and the fact that stunning fist is very effective, when you are actually able to hit.


ciretose wrote:

I threw it out as a max, not a min. The best resistance bonus you can add is +5.

The problem with being devil's advocate is occasionally you get called out to show you work.

That just happened to you.

You have two options. Post a build or don't.

Sure, why not. You need more proof, I can do that. I get being so married to an idea you have to be dragged away from it kicking and screaming.

Human Wizard 10
Str 7 Dex 14(16) Con 16(18) Int 21(25) Wis 10 Cha 7
Traits: Deft Dodger, Adopted (Elven Reflexes)
Feats: Great Fortitude, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Craft Wondrous Item, Extend Spell, Scribe Scroll, 2 feats open from level advancement
Skills: Perception 10 ranks, Spellcraft 10 Ranks, Knowledge (arcana, the planes, nature, dungeoneering) 10 ranks, Fly 10 ranks
Familiar: Compsognathus
Magic Items: +2 Belt of Physical Might, +4 Cloak of Resistance, +4 Headband of Vast Intelligence, +3 Amulet of Natural Armor, +2 Ring of Protection, 1 1st level Pearl of Power, 2 3rd level Pearls of Power, Metamagic Rod, Extend, Lesser, 11,500 gp left over.
HP: 77(average)
AC: 18 (22 buffed)
Saves: +13 Fort, +11 Reflex, +11 Will (+15 +13 +13 buffed)
Init: +9
Keeps up image armor and heroism throughout the day, using pearls to get coverage.

So, with the exception of an arcane school and 2 feats, there you go. So, you'd get a 1 in 4 chance to stun, assuming you get past any defensive magic cast. The only buffs he has up are 10 min/level or longer that he can keep up for a whole adventuring day, so in combat some stats would go up.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

Krigare wrote:
ciretose wrote:

I threw it out as a max, not a min. The best resistance bonus you can add is +5.

The problem with being devil's advocate is occasionally you get called out to show you work.

That just happened to you.

You have two options. Post a build or don't.

Sure, why not. You need more proof, I can do that. I get being so married to an idea you have to be dragged away from it kicking and screaming.

Human Wizard 10
Str 7 Dex 14(16) Con 16(18) Int 21(25) Wis 10 Cha 7
Traits: Deft Dodger, Adopted (Elven Reflexes)
Feats: Great Fortitude, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Craft Wondrous Item, Extend Spell, Scribe Scroll, 2 feats open from level advancement
Skills: Perception 10 ranks, Spellcraft 10 Ranks, Knowledge (arcana, the planes, nature, dungeoneering) 10 ranks, Fly 10 ranks
Familiar: Compsognathus
Magic Items: +2 Belt of Physical Might, +4 Cloak of Resistance, +4 Headband of Vast Intelligence, +3 Amulet of Natural Armor, +2 Ring of Protection, 1 1st level Pearl of Power, 2 3rd level Pearls of Power, Metamagic Rod, Extend, Lesser, 11,500 gp left over.
HP: 77(average)
AC: 18 (22 buffed)
Saves: +13 Fort, +11 Reflex, +11 Will (+15 +13 +13 buffed)
Init: +9
Keeps up image armor and heroism throughout the day, using pearls to get coverage.

So, with the exception of an arcane school and 2 feats, there you go. So, you'd get a 1 in 4 chance to stun, assuming you get past any defensive magic cast. The only buffs he has up are 10 min/level or longer that he can keep up for a whole adventuring day, so in combat some stats would go up.

WBL is 62,000

Belt of Physical Might 10000
Cloak 16000
Headband of vast int 16000
Amulet of Natural Armor 18000
Ring of Protection +2 4000

I'm over 62000 already. What are you calculating?


ciretose wrote:
Krigare wrote:
ciretose wrote:

I threw it out as a max, not a min. The best resistance bonus you can add is +5.

The problem with being devil's advocate is occasionally you get called out to show you work.

That just happened to you.

You have two options. Post a build or don't.

Sure, why not. You need more proof, I can do that. I get being so married to an idea you have to be dragged away from it kicking and screaming.

Human Wizard 10
Str 7 Dex 14(16) Con 16(18) Int 21(25) Wis 10 Cha 7
Traits: Deft Dodger, Adopted (Elven Reflexes)
Feats: Great Fortitude, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Craft Wondrous Item, Extend Spell, Scribe Scroll, 2 feats open from level advancement
Skills: Perception 10 ranks, Spellcraft 10 Ranks, Knowledge (arcana, the planes, nature, dungeoneering) 10 ranks, Fly 10 ranks
Familiar: Compsognathus
Magic Items: +2 Belt of Physical Might, +4 Cloak of Resistance, +4 Headband of Vast Intelligence, +3 Amulet of Natural Armor, +2 Ring of Protection, 1 1st level Pearl of Power, 2 3rd level Pearls of Power, Metamagic Rod, Extend, Lesser, 11,500 gp left over.
HP: 77(average)
AC: 18 (22 buffed)
Saves: +13 Fort, +11 Reflex, +11 Will (+15 +13 +13 buffed)
Init: +9
Keeps up image armor and heroism throughout the day, using pearls to get coverage.

So, with the exception of an arcane school and 2 feats, there you go. So, you'd get a 1 in 4 chance to stun, assuming you get past any defensive magic cast. The only buffs he has up are 10 min/level or longer that he can keep up for a whole adventuring day, so in combat some stats would go up.

WBL is 62,000

Belt of Physical Might 10000
Cloak 16000
Headband of vast int 16000
Amulet of Natural Armor 18000
Ring of Protection +2 4000

I'm over 62000 already. What are you calculating?

In there in the feats section. Craft Wondrous Item. Half the cost on all the wondrous items. Ring of Prot, the Rod, those are the only things that hit full cost.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

Actually you can't craft the cloak either, at least not at +4 (creator’s caster level must be at least three times the cloak’s bonus). Or the Amulet of Natural Armor, since Barkskin isn't a wizard spell.

But I guess your adopted human who was raised by elves, has unlimited time to craft items at the exact level needed to be optimal, who has two dump stats of 7, and rides a Dinosaur can get to a 12 fort save by 10th level to combat the stunning fist of a monk with only a 20 wisdom.

But at least it isn't Schrodinger, so I'll give you credit for that.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

For fairness, here is an old 10th level monk I did.

This was pre-TWF fix I think, when you could flurry with a single weapon, so that changes a lot of things...which is kind of the point of the thread.

Defense, as you can see, is not an issue. Offence and ability to attack however...

If you change weapon focus to unarmed and shift gold from a temple sword at 8k for +2 to AoMF +1...well, that is the whole problem, isn't it.


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ciretose wrote:

Actually you can't craft the cloak either, at least not at +4 (creator’s caster level must be at least three times the cloak’s bonus). Or the Amulet of Natural Armor, since Barkskin isn't a wizard spell.

But I guess your adopted human who was raised by elves, has unlimited time to craft items at the exact level needed to be optimal, who has two dump stats of 7, and rides a Dinosaur can get to a 12 fort save by 10th level to combat the stunning fist of a monk with only a 20 wisdom.

But at least it isn't Schrodinger, so I'll give you credit for that.

I've actually played a wizard very similar to this one in a game. Not every campaign is an AP.

And actually, he can craft the cloak and the amulet, it just boosts the DC by 5. And the trait is from half elves by the way. In all honesty, the adopted trait and the dino were there for giggles and to illustrate the ludicrousness of your demanding a full build just because you made an offhand comment that wasn't entirely true.

I'm sorry if you deciding to be demanding brought out my inner munchkin, maybe next time when soft math shows something can be done, don't try forcing the issue further and irritating folks. It is a bad debating tactic. Maybe you should try posting this level 10 mage slayer monk of yours who is going to do so well killing casters if only he had better to hit.

*Edit: Ok, so, that guy is from a bit ago and monks have had some errata go against them and some newer items and such have come out. Plus the wizard was built to PFS standard (well, actually almost entirely CRB). So not an exactly fair comparison. But at least you posted something ;)

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

I'm not sure how you get around the caster level for the cloak, but I don't want to argue that semantic since you admit you are munchkining.

Not every game is an AP, but we are discussing design, not corner cases.

A rolled monk with really high dice won't have a MAD issues, but that doesn't mean the monk isn't MAD.

The monk being MAD isn't specifically a problem, if it is intended as a limiting factor, but when they can't actually hit anything, the features that require it aren't particularly useful.

The monk I posted is a pretty strong mage slayer. Or was until the nerf of TWF.

I agree with not having a single weapon be usable for flurry. I hated that an unarmed monk was useless compared to temple sword monks.

The problem is that the unarmed monk wasn't given a needed bump when the temple sword monk was reigned in.

What I posted was considered a legal build by most people until the clarification was issued. That isn't an underpowered monk.

That build is now illegal, or at least now particularly good now.

I can't see any way to make a build anywhere near that level focusing on unarmed.

The class is based around unarmed fighting.

That is the issue.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2013

PFS Standards?

Uh...crafting?


Monks really have an identity crisis. It needs to be solved. Either they need to be a full martial class, a medium caster equivalent, a rogue peer skill class, or a full caster equivalent. Those are just the only design paradigms the game supports. And the rogue equivalent is only really viable compared to the monk.

They could be the lawful equivalent to the barbarian. That's really the only martial design space available at this time. They share enhanced mobility, a tendency to little or no armor, and strong saves (with the effectively mandatory superstitious rage power). With their contradictory alignment requirements and geographical sources they can both exist in the same role. This is what we thought we had with single weapon flurry.

A medium casting monk would be Ashiel's psionic monk. Apparently they work just fine. Since Dreamscarred put out Pathfinder psionics before Paizo that may not be an option, but a ki caster with enough ki and variety of abilities could be built as well. The Quiggong isn't this. It has about 4 level equivalent casting endurance and absurdly few abilities known.

A skilled monk would be too redundant with the ninja. That boat has sailed.

A full casting monk would be something completely different and would probably mean turning to psionics or a ki casting system of similar breadth and power. This is the least redundant role and has the least trouble with the armor aversion, but is a complete break with the old monk.

Currently the monk is running around with the magical capabilities of a martial, the accuracy of a skill class, the damage of a medium caster, and the skill points of a full caster.

I don't think Paizo can fix the monk without eating crow on the damage issue one way or another. Either they will have to drop the price on or obsolete the AMF and formally reverse the ruling against single weapon flurry or give an equivalent bonus inherently. Making the monk a medium or full caster equivalent just isn't possible with the pagination constraints of the CRB.


ciretose wrote:

PFS Standards?

Uh...crafting?

I meant for point buy lol. Sorry.

And yes, I agree the monk needs some help unarmed. I just disagree with you on the how of it.

I'm still personally of the opinion that changing ki strike over to an option similar to the magus arcane pool, where 1 point of ki buys a level based enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks (and by extension, weapons with the ki focus ability) for 1 minute would be the best way to deal with the DR issue, and assist in the to hit issue. The slight boost in damage that results by and large brings the monks up to the same level as other weapon using classes. If it is written right, it would be stackable with an AoMF, which means that between the two, at max level, the monk could be looking at a total of +10 in weapon abilities. And before someone screams about TWF's not getting that high by RAW, they don't, I know, but they also can get a +7 and a +7 weapon.

Give the monk a static bonus to hit when making a single unarmed attack based on level, so standard attacking does not suck as badly, and give flurry a couple static +1's thrown in there spread across the levels somewhere and that rounds out the hit/DR issues.

It doesn't eliminate MAD. Monks still end up needing Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom, with some Constitution. But it does lessen the demands on their stat points.

After that, all they would need to do is fix up some of monk abilities to be more usable, and the monk would be sitting back in the ranks of a solid class.


It's a VERY generous (ie: one I've never met) GM who lets you use the item's crafting cost instead of it's base cost when determining WBL. After all, a 16,000gp cloak is still worth 16,000gp, even if you just so happened to pay less for it.


Neo2151 wrote:
It's a VERY generous (ie: one I've never met) GM who lets you use the item's crafting cost instead of it's base cost when determining WBL. After all, a 16,000gp cloak is still worth 16,000gp, even if you just so happened to pay less for it.

Well, by RAW if you have the feat, you get it for the cost to craft, not the cost to buy. Its the upside of taking the craft feats.

If a DM doesn't go by RAW on it, I can't control that.


Not arguing that you're only paying the crafting cost. But if you're following the WBL guidelines, those check the base value, not the crafted cost.

So at level 10, with a WBL of 62,000, the total value of your gear cannot go past 62,000 (value of gear, not cost you paid).


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You've got that wrong...

Quote:

PC Wealth By Level (page 399): If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?

It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.

If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).

If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.

—Sean K Reynolds, 01/13/12

Thats from the FAQ here if your wanting to go read it from the source.

So...yes, at level 10, with a WBL of 62,000, assuming I had access to all the craft feats I could, in theory, have 124,000 g.p. worth of magic items, paying cost to craft, not price to buy. Of course, mundane non-crafted gear doesn't get that discount, but that is normal.

Now, a character with that many craft feats at that level isn't very feasible, but using one feat slot for that benefit? If it can be spared, it's worth it.

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