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If Monks have trouble hitting...


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Hey, I'm not doing work for you. Most of this is on paper, or I'd have to track down the people involved and get their builds, then put it up.

The party was at an appropriate level to take on a glass golem with DR 5 against the monks attacks, and an Ac above 20. The monk hit, it hurt and did the most damage, they won. Not all creatures or opponents have DR or massive AC which can slow the monk down. The inability to hit and damage claim, is false. Some just don't like that the numbers aren't high enough.

Flurry in pathfinder is very strong, by level 5 the monk is on no penalties for flurrying, so they are making two attacks at d8, with nothing off the top of flurring. Jump ahead, at 9 the monk is attacking over their bab bonus when flurrying: flurry on +7/+7/+2/+2 while bab is +6/+1. Each one of these little flurry attacks, is a 1d10. At level 13 the flurry is on a bonus two above bab and that's five attacks with a flurry. For free, no feats, all of those are 2d6.

The monk is fine, they get a huge amount, and I don't think you are going to get the changes from paizo that you want. Now I sit in shock that I have defended pathfinder.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Flurry in pathfinder is very strong, by level 5 the monk is on no penalties for flurrying, so they are making two attacks at d8, with nothing off the top of flurring.

You are confusing 3.5 and Pathfinder.

In 3.5, you have -1 penalty to hit.
In Pathfinder, you have a -2 penalty to hit. You always have one.
At level 9 in 3.5, you have no penalty.
Quote:


Jump ahead, at 9 the monk is attacking over their bab bonus when flurrying: flurry on +7/+7/+2/+2 while bab is +6/+1. Each one of these little flurry attacks, is a 1d10. At level 13 the flurry is on a bonus two above bab and that's five attacks with a flurry. For free, no feats, all of those are 2d6.

Seeing as your 9th level monk has full BAB, you didn't notice that means he should have +9?

+7 means he has a -2 penalty.

Dark Archive

I believe by no penalty he means no penalty in regards to his base attack, and infact at certain levels they get a bonus to hit on their primaries while flurrying.

My biggest issue with the monk is that I can build a monk2/fighter X that has equal AC/better Damage than a pure monk simply because of how fast weapon training scales compared to the monks unarmed progression (as the monk gets a +1 average damage every few levels and fighters get +3/+5 at level 5 with weapon spec and weapontraining + gloves). The only gap is in the fighters touch AC (as it will be lower than a monks touch AC).


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Hey, I'm not doing work for you. Most of this is on paper, or I'd have to track down the people involved and get their builds, then put it up.

That's not doing our work for us, it's proving you point. If you cannot demonstrate how this monk was a combat powerhouse, how can we assess the truth or validity of your claim? It's just anecdotal, and most of us advocating change have anecdotes as well, only they say the opposite. Difference is that to prove our points we post up our characters and say "Can anyone do better?"

So far, no-one has.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
The party was at an appropriate level to take on a glass golem with DR 5 against the monks attacks, and an Ac above 20. The monk hit, it hurt and did the most damage, they won. Not all creatures or opponents have DR or massive AC which can slow the monk down. The inability to hit and damage claim, is false. Some just don't like that the numbers aren't high enough.

A glass golem is CR8, and that's a level where monks can still perform reasonably compared to other combat classes, he'll be a little behind them but not too much. With 1d8 damage and a half-way decent strength he can overcome DR5/adamantine, just.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Flurry in pathfinder is very strong,

Actually TWFing is generally considered the second-weakest combat style in terms of scoring hits and inflicting damage. Two-handing a falchion or elven curve blade is the most effective, after which is sword & board. Single-handing a weapon is often considered the weakest, although I have seen some strong builds.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
by level 5 the monk is on no penalties for flurrying,

I think what you meant to say there is that the monk's flurry attack is at the same BAB as their normal BAB. It actually carries a -2 penalty from full BAB still.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
so they are making two attacks at d8, with nothing off the top of flurring. Jump ahead, at 9 the monk is attacking over their bab bonus when flurrying: flurry on +7/+7/+2/+2 while bab is +6/+1. Each one of these little flurry attacks, is a 1d10. At level 13 the flurry is on a bonus two above bab and that's five attacks with a flurry. For free, no feats, all of those are 2d6.

Yeah, but lets not forget the bits that really count - the enhancement, threat range and crit multiplier. Not to mention the hitting attribute bonus (MAD makes it usually less for the monk) and the BAB.

Enhancement: At 2nd level, other classes use masterwork weapons, so they are at +1 to hit. By 4th level, they have +1 weapons. Monk gets +1 AoMF at 7th level but by 8th level other combat classes are up to +2. By 13th other classes are on +3 weapons, while the monk didn't get to +2 until 11th. So in general they will always be +1 to hit and damage ahead of the monk.

Threat Range & crit multiplier: Unarmed strike gets a base 20 threat, most canny warriors will be using weapons with an 18-20 threat. At 8th or 9th level they will go Improved Critical to get to 15-20. The monk will take it at 10th for 19-20. Some will buck the trend and go for a higher crit multiplier instead, but that's also an option the monk doesn't get.

Then there's the static bonuses, from strength (likely to be more but not always) and from enhancement (always more). This ignores the fact that other classes get other boosts - rage, favoured enemies, weapon training and smite.

It's easy to see how a weapon with 1d6 base damage with a 15-20 threat range can be out-damaging the monk at 13th level (in fact, all the way through from 1st level), because the flat bonus to damage, more hits and more critical hits will add up to beat that 2d6 hands down.

As for other combat styles, the monk really doesn't get much option to two hand weapons - FoB works only with a limited set, and few of them work well two-handed, and it limits damage bonus from strength in any event. He can't use a shield. He can't even single-hand a weapon to get a slightly better attack bonus.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
The monk is fine, they get a huge amount, and I don't think you are going to get the changes from paizo that you want. Now I sit in shock that I have defended pathfinder.

They do? Then tell us what it is, please. I mean they get some nice things like evasion and good saves, but many of their other abilities are over-rated or simply fail to work together with any synergy. Most can be duplicated by low-level spells and/or simple magic items.

Comparing the monk to the paladin or the ranger, and the monk abilities look largely second rate. So the monk has good saves, mediocre abilities, lower BAB, a poor primary weapon, and is trapped into the second-worst combat style compared to full BAB classes, yet they are expected to be a combat class, and you say they are OK? Not buying it.


Starbuck_II wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Flurry in pathfinder is very strong, by level 5 the monk is on no penalties for flurrying, so they are making two attacks at d8, with nothing off the top of flurring.

You are confusing 3.5 and Pathfinder.

In 3.5, you have -1 penalty to hit.
In Pathfinder, you have a -2 penalty to hit. You always have one.
At level 9 in 3.5, you have no penalty.
Quote:


Jump ahead, at 9 the monk is attacking over their bab bonus when flurrying: flurry on +7/+7/+2/+2 while bab is +6/+1. Each one of these little flurry attacks, is a 1d10. At level 13 the flurry is on a bonus two above bab and that's five attacks with a flurry. For free, no feats, all of those are 2d6.

Seeing as your 9th level monk has full BAB, you didn't notice that means he should have +9?

+7 means he has a -2 penalty.

No, I was specifically referring to pathfinder core, p. 58 on the monk (in my version)

Check it up.

Level 5, bab is +3, flurry is +3/+3
Level 9, bab +6/+1, but flurry is +7/+7/+2/+2
By 13, the attack bonus is +11, two above the bab of +9, and the monk is up to five attacks.

You are confused. Pathfinder has you on -1 for flurry at level 1, which departs at 5, and then you are on a higher bonus for flurry than your bab would suggest, at level 9.

Checking 3.5, the monk starts on -2/-2 for flurry at level 1. This is gone by level 9. In pathfinder, it is gone at level 5.

Not trolling people, the monk gets a lot, but they don't engage like barbs or fighters with falchions. They have an impressive flurry in pathfinder, which goes over their bab past certain levels. High ac foes are one of their weaknesses, because it limits the number of attacks in the flurry that hit.


I gotta side with TheSideKick here. You're willing to throw down ancedotal evidence all day long, but anyone can do that. When it comes to actual numbers/builds, you can't be bothered?

Also, you can't compare 3.5 FoB and PF FoB like you are trying to because they're fundamentally different from one another.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
You are confused.

<Ahem>

Pathfinder_OGC wrote:
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

So the monk flurries using TWF mechanics, using their class level as their BAB. THis means that they have a -2 penalty imposed on them compared to other full-BAB classes in real terms, as they lack the option to not TWF to get better odds to hit.

I'm not confused, you just don't know the rules well enough to understand what I am talking about.

While I will agree the Pathfinder FoB is a bit better than the 3.5 FoB, it still suffers from the same problems: Lack of enhancement, MAD, and reduced odds to hit. The latter I can deal with as a consequence of getting so many attacks, but the first two count and count hard. Monk's still cannot hit the baseline of a martial class without it's speciality, yet they are meant to be a combat class.


Yes of course, but he was in error, so I pointed it out again.

"In 3.5, you have -1 penalty to hit.
In Pathfinder, you have a -2 penalty to hit. You always have one."

-2 is 3.5 not pathfinder which has a faster rate of ascent, and it goes past their so-so bab; which doesn't mean they are unable to hit or damage DR foes. I think they are pretty good at spamming the attacks when in base, but DR slows their damage. As I said, that is why it is a good idea to keep a magic monk weapon as a back-up for such things. +2 spear or a +2 staff.

Around the level a monk would be facing something like a glass golem, they can hit and injure it. Now make it DR 10, and the monk's damage drops right down, but just as high DR can slow a monk so too can golems make spellcasters far less effective. The monk should not be good against everything and more powerful, because no class is good against everything.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Monk Fans vs. The Supreme Intellectual

That's like Aliens vs. Predator, really. Now I gotta figure out who is who...


Dabbler, they quickly get rid of that penalty, and go above it while adding more attacks on top.

Do you want to stack two weapon fighting on top of flurry? Then they would be on those penalties as well. 11 is nice, with five attacks, two of which are above the bab of +8.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
The monk should not be good against everything and more powerful, because no class is good against everything.

Agreed. I would just like to see the monk as effective against as many creatures as any other combat class, rather than far less. All other combat classes have a counter to DR in one form or another. All other combat classes can engage high-AC targets with a far better chance of success. The monk has more difficulty in these areas, and has no other way of engaging foes save to fight them.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
The monk should not be good against everything and more powerful, because no class is good against everything.

Fighters and Barbs are good against everything. Rangers are pretty good against everything and amazing against their FE (and with a single spell, any foe can become their FE). Paladins are good against everything and ridiculously amazing against evil.


It is a shame the manoeuvre mechanics are so discouraging and hard to pull off, especially as the levels and CMD rise. For years I've seen monks do quite well via that avenue in 3.5, as an alternative when flurry was not so effective. Weak in some areas of the numbers, but when you were good at a manoeuvre (monk or otherwise) you were especially good.

They may be being left behind in the race of the crunch.


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I think 3.5 loyalist is still using his group's opinion of acceptable damage, but I was sure we once agree that doing enough damage to ensure fights lasted longer was not how most people played.

Just to be clear 3.5L once sneak attack damage made rogue OP so I used a 5th or 6th level barbarian or fighter that was not optimized and did more damage than his rogue that is only allowed one sneak attack.

This was because he claimed the rogue was outdamaging the full BAB guys in his group. If they can't get the full BAB guys to out damage a rogue how are they going to push a monk into the same area barring some 3.5 splat books, and an optimization guide.

3.5L I will tell you what I told another poster. When we say "The monk can't hit or can't deal with DR", it is not a literal statement. It means the monk has a hard time doing so, specifically when dealing with monsters(racial HD based creatures). I am pretty sure you knew that, but I just had to get rid of that part of your argument.

IIRC we had a thread not too long ago when the monk was not faring too well. The core monk did do well damage wise against a slightly optimized ranger I made, but the monk was built for DPR, and the ranger was built for versatility. However the ranger still did better when his top two favored enemies came into play. Had I gone for a DPR build I am sure I could have hit match the monk since the extra points into strength and the permanent enlarge(which the monk) had would have made them even.

3.5L that flurry chart has the -2 already factored in. The monk is not getting anything for free or even a bonus. If you are trying to compare the flurry BAB to the monk's normal BAB you are wording it badly.

Just in case you are not let's use level 13 which you listed in your example.

3.5 loyalist wrote:
By 13, the attack bonus is +11, two above the bab of +9, and the monk is up to five attacks.

Now at level 13 a monk has a BAB of +13 for the purpose of flurries but the -2 drops it down to a +11

PRD wrote:
+11/+11/+6/+6/+1

Anyone taking two weapon fighting that is using the TWF feat tree also has "+11/+11/+6/+6/+1" at level 13 since they will have access to greater TWF at that time if they choose to do so.


Neo2151 wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
The monk should not be good against everything and more powerful, because no class is good against everything.
Fighters and Barbs are good against everything. Rangers are pretty good against everything and amazing against their FE (and with a single spell, any foe can become their FE). Paladins are good against everything and ridiculously amazing against evil.

*Raises hand*

Fighters and barbs are weak versus spellcasters at range and saves that aren't fort, barring builds specifically made to address this (once made a very fast fighter with decent saves whose job it was to rush mages).
Ranged rangers are defeated in close or if their bows are lost/broken, twf rangers can go down to ranged, or high attack and damage foes that aren't their favoured. The spell to alter their favoured can address this, making them very strong, but it is only temporary.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
The monk should not be good against everything and more powerful, because no class is good against everything.
Fighters and Barbs are good against everything. Rangers are pretty good against everything and amazing against their FE (and with a single spell, any foe can become their FE). Paladins are good against everything and ridiculously amazing against evil.

*Raises hand*

Fighters and barbs are weak versus spellcasters at range and saves that aren't fort, barring builds specifically made to address this (once made a very fast fighter with decent saves whose job it was to rush mages).
Ranged rangers are defeated in close or if their bows are lost/broken, twf rangers can go down to ranged, or high attack and damage foes that aren't their favoured. The spell to alter their favoured can address this, making them very strong, but it is only temporary.

Fighters and barbarians having weak will saves is a player problem, not a class problem. They can deal with the reflex saves. They should also be built to do ranged and melee damage. Well barbarians are not really known for ranged attacks,.....

With that said I don't think the monk..oh heck..what Dabbler said. :)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

It is a shame the manoeuvre mechanics are so discouraging and hard to pull off, especially as the levels and CMD rise. For years I've seen monks do quite well via that avenue in 3.5, as an alternative when flurry was not so effective. Weak in some areas of the numbers, but when you were good at a manoeuvre (monk or otherwise) you were especially good.

They may be being left behind in the race of the crunch.

They are, and this is what we have been talking about for umpteen pages.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
The monk should not be good against everything and more powerful, because no class is good against everything.
Fighters and Barbs are good against everything. Rangers are pretty good against everything and amazing against their FE (and with a single spell, any foe can become their FE). Paladins are good against everything and ridiculously amazing against evil.

*Raises hand*

Fighters and barbs are weak versus spellcasters at range and saves that aren't fort, barring builds specifically made to address this (once made a very fast fighter with decent saves whose job it was to rush mages).

Fighters and barbarians get massive bonuses to hit and damage, though. well above the baseline. They sacrifice vulnerability for offensive power, if you will. This is one reason that I have constantly stated that the monk should not be aiming to match them for hits or damage. The monk needs to be at the 'baseline' of the non-raging barbarian, the non-smiting paladin, or the ranger not fighting his favoured enemy, and currently he can't get there. If he can meet this, his defences and his stunning fist are his special bonus.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Ranged rangers are defeated in close or if their bows are lost/broken, twf rangers can go down to ranged, or high attack and damage foes that aren't their favoured. The spell to alter their favoured can address this, making them very strong, but it is only temporary.

This is why many rangers are played as 'switch-hitters' who alternate between ranged and melee. Less good at either, but more flexible. Usually, an archer character is an addition to a party, a 5th member who has the rest of the party between him and the foe.

That spell is awesome, by the way, as it allows the ranger to take on ANY foe they choose as a speciality. It's like giving a paladin the ability to smite anything, not just evil.


Sorry, you're right. I'll elaborate:

  • Fighters are weak against Will saves and kind of weak against Ref saves (but they don't really care about the Ref saves, now do they?)

  • Barbs are weak against Ref saves, but just like the Ftr, they don't care.

  • Ranged Rangers are incredibly strong and their Animal Companions can be used to keep enemies at range. Melee rangers are no weaker against ranged than any other melee. Base will saves are not amazing, admittedly, but spells can help offset this, so it's a problem that fixes itself.

  • I notice you didn't mention Paladins, but we'll look more closely at them too. Actually, the only weak thing I can find for Paladins is low skill points. But they're not a skill-focused class. So who cares?


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So I know this doesn't solve the "not being able to hit" thing but what if we got rid of the "no move actions to use flurry" thing? I have a monk NPC I'm running and the one thing I've noticed and thought I'd have a problem with as a PC is that half my time on the battlefield is positioning myself and using either maneuvers or a single lame attack to kill time until I do something cool (which so far has had a 50/50 chance of success).

If monks are the undisputed masters/mistresses of unarmed strikes I feel like they should do them all the time everywhere. That's my 2 copper on it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Various suggestions have been mentioned. I favour removing the ki-pool's +20' movement with a 20' move as a swift action, or something similar.

Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@Mark Hoover: try getting Tiger Style feat chain, the 3rd feat lets you move half-speed as a swift action (with some caveats).

Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@Dabbler: rather than removing, I'd prefer in addition to. But it's a good idea; I'd allow for half-speed in movement, to make the monk's scaling speed be more meaningful.

Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A general suggestion:

"When using a flurry of blows, each time a monk hits a foe the monk receives a +2 bonus to attacks to hit that foe until the start of his next turn. If the monk attacks a different foe, then he loses the bonus gained."


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Is that cumulative?


There's a fighter archetype that sacrifices 1 hit at highest BAB to be able to move and attack at around level 7 I think. At around level 15 the same archetype grants an extra attack at the cost of a penalty to all attacks, similar to rapid shot. Something like this could work for a monk.

If move+attack could be added to the monk in such a way, what about an additional mechanic that allows you to spend some of your movement to gain an attack bonus to flurry? Mechanically, you'd just be standing there, but flavor wise, the monk would be attacking his foe from all sides with blinding speed.

If you further restricted it and allowed the monk to spend his fast movement bonus speed and gave say, +1 attack bonus per 10 feet of movement spent this way, you'd cap out at +6 to attacks, which would probably do a lot to fix things.

Turns where you have to actually move still let you flurry, but you won't get as much attack bonus, so I think it might balance out fairly well. Combining this with abundant step and taking dimensional agility would let you close, bust someone up, and then move 10 feet away.

Seems like a good option to me. You'd get some much needed synergy between fast movement and flurry, while also getting some cool tactical options.

Dark Archive Star Voter 2013

Hell a monk is only MAD because of the wisdom to AC, take a level in fighter and take heavy armour! There you go that answers most problms with the monk (enchant the gauntlets for +5 to hit)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like these ideas, there's some good ideas there.

Concerning movement...this isn't a monk ability but could make a nice feat:

Body Missile
You launch yourself at your foe, making your whole body your weapon.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, at least +10' enhanced movement.
Benefit: When you charge a minimum of twenty feet, you may end your charge with an unarmed strike. This strike gains a bonus of +1 to hit and damage for every ten feet of enhanced movement that you possess. While charging, any attacks of opportunity made against you while charging are made at +1 to hit per ten feet of enhanced movement you have. These bonuses and penalties are cumulative with a normal charge bonus.
Normal: When you charge you gain a +2 bonus to hit and take a -2 bonus to AC.


ulgulanoth wrote:
Hell a monk is only MAD because of the wisdom to AC, take a level in fighter and take heavy armour! There you go that answers most problms with the monk (enchant the gauntlets for +5 to hit)

Or even better, just take 2 levels of Monk and the rest Fighter! You'll be the best Monk ever that way! :P


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... which makes me one sad panda. And is why we need to do something to help the poor monk out. :)


Monks can't flurry while in armor. Or at least, core monks can't.


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Oh, I thought of one good measure to know if the monk is truly fixed, once the official Paizo fix comes through: If the monk can hold its own against the Unarmed Fighter, then the fix is good. Doesn't matter what the fix is, but if the Unarmed Fighter can beat the Monk handily, then that is not good--that is sad panda time.

Reminds me of a story a friend told me when he went to a martial arts expo years ago. This aikido master, old fella, asked anyone, anyone, to come up out of the audience and take a swing at him. He'd deflect the blow, right? Or something. Some muscled brute came out of the audience, wound up, and swung--and knocked the aikido master right out. Oops.


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Monks are not underpowered in my opinion. My dear monk did 137 points of damage in 1 round while being lvl 8 while having an armor class of 37 and saves like +8, +10 and +11. This all in a lvl 7-9 adventure.

The rest of the party informed me that they think my character is too overpowered.


Valiant wrote:

Monks are not underpowered in my opinion. My dear monk did 137 points of damage in 1 round while being lvl 8 while having an armor class of 37 and saves like +8, +10 and +11. This all in a lvl 7-9 adventure.

The rest of the party informed me that they think my character is too overpowered.

Interesting! Could I trouble you for your build and items used? I'm building a monk myself for PFS and could use some ideas.


FiddlersGreen wrote:
Valiant wrote:

Monks are not underpowered in my opinion. My dear monk did 137 points of damage in 1 round while being lvl 8 while having an armor class of 37 and saves like +8, +10 and +11. This all in a lvl 7-9 adventure.

The rest of the party informed me that they think my character is too overpowered.

Interesting! Could I trouble you for your build and items used? I'm building a monk myself for PFS and could use some ideas.

Good luck, everytime we see a post saying my monk is OP, we never see a full build.


Of course. Give me a sec to write it up.


Valiant wrote:
Of course. Give me a sec to write it up.

I'd love to see this as well! Perhaps all of our wailing and gnashing of teeth about monks being underpowered will be solved.

Also, take Master of Many Styles and then go into Fighter and wear heavy armor.


Hoplophobia wrote:
Also, take Martial Artist and then go into Fighter and wear heavy armor.

Again, can't flurry in armor...


Darth Grall wrote:
Hoplophobia wrote:
Also, take Martial Artist and then go into Fighter and wear heavy armor.
Again, can't flurry in armor...

MoMS gives up flurry.


Gignere wrote:
Darth Grall wrote:
Hoplophobia wrote:
Also, take Martial Artist and then go into Fighter and wear heavy armor.
Again, can't flurry in armor...
MoMS gives up flurry.

Ah, he edited on me. Annoying.


MoMS is a pretty good dip. So is Maneuver Master. Lousy to stick with. Naked 3/4 BAB sucks.

That says prestige, not base class archetype. Maybe if all their level 3-20 abilities were compressed into one level to make a 3 level PrC people would go more than two levels. Maybe.


Darth Grall wrote:
Gignere wrote:
Darth Grall wrote:
Hoplophobia wrote:
Also, take Martial Artist and then go into Fighter and wear heavy armor.
Again, can't flurry in armor...
MoMS gives up flurry.
Ah, he edited on me. Annoying.

Apologies. I recognized the mistake right after I posted it. Should of used an Edit tag, but I didn't.

Simply put being able to get the style stances you want and using two while in heavy armor is good.


Human Monk lvl 8
Drunken Master/Monk of Four Winds.

Speed: 50

Str: 24/+7 Base: 20
Dex: 14/+2 Base: 14
Con: 11/+0 Base: 11
Int: 7/-2 Base: 7
Wis: 16/+3 Base: 14
Cha: 7/-2 Base: 7

BaB: 6

Items used:
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2
Amulet of Natural armor +1
Cloak of Resistance +2
Monks Robes (AC and Unarmed Damage like a Monk 5 levels higher)
Bracers of Armor +1
Ring of Protection +2
Belt of Giant Strength +2
Ioun Stone: Cracked Vibrant Purple (Stores 1 1st lvl spell, usually Shield)
Wand of Mage armor, Wand of Shield

Feats:
1st lvl feat: Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike
1st lvl Human feat: Power Attack
3rd lvl feat: Belier's Bite. (Unarmed attacks deal 1d4 bleed damage)
5th lvl feat: Mobility
7th lvl feat: Blind Fight

1st lvl Monk feat: Dodge
1st lvl class feature: Improved Unarmed Strike
1st lvl class feature: Flurry of Blows
2nd lvl Monk feat: Improved Grapple
2nd lvl Monk feature: Evasion
3rd lvl Monk feature: Maneuver Training (BaB equal to monk lvl when calculating CMB)
4th lvl Monk feature: Ki Pool (8 Ki. Half lvl + 3 from wisdom +1 Vow of Truth)
4th lvl Monk feature: Slow fall 40ft
4th lvl Monk feature: +3 AC and CMD (boosted from Monk's Robes)
5th lvl Monk feature: High Jump
6th lvl Monk Feat: Improved Disarm

Drunken Ki: (Pool of 4 drunken Ki, replenishable by drinking 1 drink per Ki point. 1 drunken ki point lasts 1 hour or until used)

4th and 8th Ability Point spent in Strength.

Trait: Accelerated Drinker
Trait: Iron Liver

Unarmed Strike:
Atk: +14/+9
Damage: 2d6+7 +1d4 Bleed damage.

Flurry:
Atk: +14/+14/+9/+9
Damage: 2d6+7 +1d4 Bleed Damage

Now the trick here is the following:
Buffs: Make sure you got a Mage Armor on at all times, asking the casters or UMD people in the party to put it on you. This will give you a long time AC of 26.

Just before combat or during combat where you don't get your full attack in, buff yourself with a Shield cast from your Ioun Stone. Your AC is then 30.
Get a Haste cast on yourself if possible, this gives you more freedom in deciding where to put your Ki points in. (You don't need to spend it in an extra attack)
Also considering buffs: I had my fellow players provide me with extra AC and Atk point due to bard song and bless and such.

(Yes, I know, the bracers of armor are a waste of cash....still usefull when your mage armor is not on for some odd reason)

Now, you got a choise: Do you wanna do more damage, or do you wanna have 1 less attack and have more survivability?

Survivability: Put the Ki Point in +4 Dodge.
Extra damage: Put the Ki point in Elemental Fist. (which I did when doing the 137 points of damage.

Problem with the Monk is: You only have 1 swift action to spend per round, so you gotta chose what ability you use with that 1 action. Haste is a 'must', so I'm getting the Boots of Speed at lvl 9, which my Monk will be after tomorrow evening.

Now, to describe what happened with the 137 points of damage:

I was fighting a young nerubian hound which had vulnerability to Cold Damage.

I used Flurry, was Hasted and used my swift action and Ki point to do an Elemental Fist of Cold damage for extra 2d6 damage, which will be times 1.5 since the monster was vulnerable to it.

I had 5 attacks.
I used Power Attack for them all, giving me not a +7, but a +11 to all damage rolls of every attack.
Due to buffs from the other players (bard I think?) I got another +2 on my damage, making the total a +13 damage bonus for every hit.

So, I had the following attacks:
5 Attacks at around +17/+17/+17/+11/+11
Damage: 2d6 + 13 Regular damage for every hit.
First hit only did 2d6 x1.5 damage (frost damage)

When rolling the hits, I hit them all, and even critted once.

Meaning I did a base damage of:

6x 13 = 78 set regular damage.
12d6 regular damage
2d6 x 1.5 Cold damage

Totalling up to 137 points of damage in 1 round.

Edit: This is all using Unarmed Strikes and NO amulet of mighty fists.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Though I normally advocate simply using ki as a method of bypassing DR and possibly gaining an insight bonus (not sure why everybody says enhancement when that wouldn't stack with AoMF), the last few comments from Killsmith about movement gave me a new idea:

New Level 11 Ability

Turning the Circle: On any round in which a Monk does not take a movement action, the Monk may choose a target that is now considered flanking when using a melee attack despite not meeting the requirements with other allies. At level 15, this ability extends to all allies using a melee attack adjacent to the chosen target even if they are not occupying opposite squares.

This ability is not overpowered, and doesn't fix everything. In fact, it doesn't fix any of the major problems with the Monk on it's own, but I think can offer some headway if the ki enhancements were also included but underwhelming, which they should be to prevent overpowering. What it does do is allow the Monk to do something alone, and greatly enhance battle positioning when working with the party. It encourages allies to consider flanking a bit more as well (and I've had that problem with players who are not concerned with their party). It raises the uses of the Tactical Acumen spell. It makes Monks a slightly more viable scout. It also grants Monks more synergy with Rogues, who arguably also need some assistance as a class.

Now, certainly any party worth their salt will try to flank regardless, but having the option to do so while not occupying opposite squares has more uses than one would initially think. A properly placed Wall of Force gives great tactical advantage, for instance. Also, it allows flanking in narrow hallways without having to separate from the party.

The premise is based upon the martial artist's encircling of their opponents, using their steps as a way to slow the timing and reactions of their opponents. You can read more about it in Baguazhang.

As far as the Monk's role:

Role: wrote:
Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.

I actually think this is one of the few examples in which it fits with the description.

Some may ask why I chose the level I did. First off, I did not want any other classes trying to "dip" for this ability, so it must be fairly high. Level 11 is a little late for the Monk, but it's also a level in which they have nothing to look forward to, so it offers a positive feel. Level 10 seems to be the drop-off area in my mind to when Monk's start having more difficulty in hitting as well. By level 15, most allies will not need the bonus or will have another method to flank. This is, in fact, good. I wouldn't want a party relying entirely on the Monk to create a synergy as much as having a nicer, cleaner, alternative to tumble checks and save on spells that create other positioning methods.

Feel free to critique!


Valiant wrote:

Human Monk lvl 8

Drunken Master/Monk of Four Winds.

< more monk build, gear & strat stuff >

Can we know what you were fighting when you made that flurry?

EDIT: That looks like a point buy, but it looks like a 22 point buy. Not a big deal, just curious why the odd number.


Aha. You're soaking three single target buffs. The Mage Armor has is a long duration buff where the price is just in pearls of power or wand charges or a page of spell knowledge and rune stones, but the heroism is costing actions. Shield is being used illegally. Vibrant Purple Ioun Stones reference Rings of Spell Storing, which can only contain spells the wearer can cast. Monks cannot cast spells.

You've also got damage boosting coming from other characters that can't be assumed for a generic monk. It may be worth exploring how the presence of a bard influences class balance, but that would probably merit its own thread. Without the bard you'd be down at least 10 damage and would be less likely to hit with all attacks.

Your claimed damage is also an outstanding case. Hitting with all five attacks, critting on one, and elemental fist against a vulnerable target is not normal. It can happen but it's not reliable or common. Average damage matters more than high or low damage to balance.

More normal damage would have some attacks missing, no crit, and no elemental vulnerability.


Valiant wrote:


Now the trick here is the following:
Buffs: Make sure you got a Mage Armor on at all times, asking the casters or UMD people in the party to put it on you. This will give you a long time AC of 26.

Just before combat or during combat where you don't get your full attack in, buff yourself with a Shield cast from your Ioun Stone. Your AC is then 30.
Get a Haste cast on yourself if...

Where is the 37 AC?


Valiant, just a couple quick notes on your build: Power Attack and Weapon Focus can't be taken at first level by a 3/4 BAB class. I think you're a few thousand gold over expected WBL for an 8th lvl character (33k), although not over WBL for 9th. A lot of buffs factored in there...


Valiant wrote:

Monks are not underpowered in my opinion. My dear monk did 137 points of damage in 1 round while being lvl 8 while having an armor class of 37 and saves like +8, +10 and +11. This all in a lvl 7-9 adventure.

The rest of the party informed me that they think my character is too overpowered.

Pretty sure a unarmed Fighter does more.

So 22 PB?
Level 8 + 3000 gp.
Allowed to Accept 2 buffs from allies (Haste, bless)? And inspire Courage +2?

Only get 3 attacks as a Fighter (BAB +haste), unless I TWF with my unarmed strike.
Brawler (+1) armor grants me what +2 hit/dam, grapple though?

Did I get everything?

Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:
Is that cumulative?

Yes, since it is an untyped bonus.

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