Will you agree that disagreeing with her claim (that someone talking to her in an elevator is an act of sexual objectification) isn't misogyny? That's all I'm trying to get at.No, the act of talking to someone in an elevator is not sexual objectification.
What I do think is a sneaky form of misogyny, is telling her that she had no right to feel uncomfortable in that situation, regardless of his true intent. It doesn't matter if he was trying to have sex with her or not.
She was cornered in a tiny room by a man and asked to go to his room.
Because men can act unpredictably sometimes, women are afraid just by being asked.
So because a tiny (TINY) minority of guys are total criminal dickbags, all women are justified in living in fear all day every day and should never feel comfortable around any bepenised individual ever. Period.
That's nonsense.
She has the right to feel however she does. She was, in all likelihood, unjustified in that fear. Which makes all the difference in my mind.
Also, telling guys "don't do that" is something she shouldn't have done because it creates that sort of recursive loop that ends in an absurd place of "well I can't ever talk to anyone ever, lest they think I'll rape them". If that utterly benign situation caused Skepchick, who by all means should be a rational and freethinking individual, to feel uncomfortable, how can any man approach any woman ever? It's absurd.
Again, your focusing on the guy on the elevator. He is not the issue. I'm done talking about the guy on the elevator, if you want to continue, feel free, but I'm done.
Again, your focusing on the guy on the elevator. He is not the issue. I'm done talking about the guy on the elevator, if you want to continue, feel free, but I'm done.
But he rightfully is the focus. The remarks by Dawkins, which is what ignited my interest in this discussion, were focused solely on the elevator guy and Skepchick's response to it.
I would never want to trivialize rape.
I totally want to trivialize the elevator "incident" because it was a nothing.
But not focusing on the actual original post and incident leads me to speak about the deluge of horribly sexist (towards men) posts that erupted in defense of Skepchick. And towards her, no doubt.
Alls I'm saying if one side is misogynists, the other side is misandrysts, to an equal degree.
I brought up the incident, not because elevator etiquette is indicative of atheist culture, but because the online aftermath did represent a sampling of atheist culture, and perhaps some insight into why atheism plus happened.
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I honestly think it says more about internet cultures, factionalization and flame wars than it does about atheism.
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Communication is difficult, but it's still the only way to improve a bad situation.
Women do get raped. Of them, some have their entire lives ruined because they can never move on from constant reminders, psychological problems, surroundings that do not understand, even suicides. Still, rapists are few and far between, it's just that you can't tell. It's not incomprehensible that there are demands for greater respect for these fears.
On the other hand, men do get accused falsely of rape. Of them, some have their entire lives ruined because they can never move on from jail time, lost careers, lost families, even suicides. Still, false accusers are few and far between, it's just that you can't tell. It's not incomprehensible that there are demands for greater respect for these fears.
And even so, these demands for respect for the fears people have only accomplish one thing: A greater difficulty of communication. Limiting the contact between groups, or demonizing men, or women, doesn't improve anything. Bashing these demands for respect for your fears into the heads of anyone who happens to listen will not make anyone feel safer in the long run.
The world is a dangerous place. Anyone can be hit by a bus any day. Someone in the elevator may jump you, or a girl at work may accuse you of sexual harassment, at any time. A junkie could mow you, or your children, down, any time. You can take precautions, and most do, but once you let your fear intrude into even relatively normal situations, that is what your entire life will feel like.
Limiting normal behaviour because you want to feel respected won't improve anything.
Feel free to flame me for saying it.
So, I was walking home from getting groceries and it was pretty dark out, and every time I saw a dark silhouette (everyone was dark silhouettes in this light) I wondered if I was about to be mugged and/or raped.
A group of guys on bikes went past and jeered. One of them said something about "I'll give ya twenty bucks!" No prizes for guessing what he meant by that.
How did you feel last time you walked home in the dark?
I'm reminded of this article.
This is actually a good read, even if it is a little exaggerated at some points.
So, I was walking home from getting groceries and it was pretty dark out, and every time I saw a dark silhouette (everyone was dark silhouettes in this light) I wondered if I was about to be mugged and/or raped.
A group of guys on bikes went past and jeered. One of them said something about "I'll give ya twenty bucks!" No prizes for guessing what he meant by that.
How did you feel last time you walked home in the dark?
I was rolled once when I was drunk walking home from the pub in the town where I grew up, 3 teenage Aboriginal guys jumped me. One hit me in the face with a tree branch another in the back of the head with a brick, I was given a good kicking and I thought I was going to die, I managed to throw all my change at them as that was the only money I had left. I ran to my sisters friends house. Am I afraid of Aboriginal people now no... Am I afraid of walking around at night now that I live in Sydney, I am cautious, a little warey but it doesn't stop me.
Personally, I don't drink and don't do drugs. I am rarely out after 10 pm, and if I am, I often take a cab home. I have learnt enough self-defense to know that keeping my eyes and ears open is the most important factor in not getting assaulted or raped. I don't generally do one-on-one talks with anyone I don't know well unless it's in a public place. If I get propositioned, I clearly say what I mean. So far, my luck has held out, and beyond a punch in my teenage years, I have not been the target of violence. As I said, it's a dangerous world, and most people adapt in certain ways. Still, I refuse to see the threat of violence everywhere I go.
Behold the potential third wave of atheism in the modern era under the nom de guerre of Atheism+. Misogyny by the old guard is one of the primary factors resulting in the seeds of this movement that has erupted within the blogosphere within the past two weeks.
--> Link Alpha. <--
--> Link Beta. <--
DISCLAIMER: I am an atheist in the general sense (), but mine takes on more of a zen approach versus some of those who prefer to be more politically charged in their position. I wanted a chance to point out to those who profess a sectarian faith that the atheist movement isn't without its own issues that religious groups have experienced over the millennia.
I believe in a God...
I'm not an atheist, but does anyone else think much of the discomfort could have been reduced by two very minor changes to the manner in which they guy propositioned?
First, by waiting for the door to open before asking (especially if it was when one of them was getting out), and second, by suggesting the meet for coffee in the lobby the following morning instead of his room?
Except it would have been awkward to have sex in the lobby the following morning, wouldn't it ? :tongueincheek:
As somebody already said though, the important part isn't about a guy making an awkward proposition at 4 am in an elevator, but in the reactions that followed the release of the story. Didn't read the blog myself.
I completely fail to see any link with atheism. Lack of religious beliefs do not protect someone from anything, including sexism, misogyny or any other cultural bias. It doesn't reinforce them either. You can as easily find atheist and religious a~$%#$+s.
I hadn't stumbled across this thread till now, and I've only skimmed the posts here, so forgiving me if I'm repeating points that have already been made.
It's not my place to comment on anyone's experience. If a woman notices a contradiction between atheists' claims that religions are misogynistic and how often she gets hit on by boorish atheists, I won't argue. If a man tells me that, by his experience, accusations of rape are levied against him, well, I can't say I've had the same experience, but I won't argue with that either.
I will say that I really don't see what Atheism+ has to do with atheism. I'm all in favor of gender equality (and just not being such a douche-bag that an unescorted woman looks like an opportunity, for that matter), but the chauvinism that Atheism+ is reacting to isn't a tenet of atheism. Atheism doesn't have tenets, because it's not a unified movement.
I guess I'm saying that while I have sympathy for women getting hit on, like, everywhere they go, I don't think starting a movement called Shopping+ is a very relevant reaction to getting hit on at the market.
Alright, I'm going to need two tiger skins and an extra large club for this one.
What I'm trying (unsuccessfully I must assume) to convey is that are certain behaviors in certain situations that are unwelcome, or even threatening. That women really don't want to be approached for sexual encounters by strangers throughout the day.
90% of males want to sleep with you. The other 10% consists of a happily married men, homosexuals, and the occasional person who has no interest in the matter.*
Wishing that that wasn't in mens heads is counter productive. Its hard wired in there by biology. Demanding that men act as if it wasn't there is demanding that they swim against the tides as well as deny a large part of what they are. Its very close to hating men for being men.
Acting on that desire might be unwelcome or evening threatening... but it might be welcome. It may only be welcome 1 time in 10 times you ask, but if you never ask then no one EVER says yes. Asking is not rape, its not assault, its not objectification. It is not some world wide conspiracy to subjugate women. It's just a large part of how and why men and women interact.
*90% figure made up out of convinience. You know its a large segment.
Hey, uh, BNW, you wanna do it?
Ever watch ANY sitcom EVER? Is there ever an incompetent female paired with a competent male?
I watch exactly one sitcom: Big Bang Theory. I'm a few seasons behind, but I find Penny to be utterly incompetent, and Leonard to be highly competent (though somewhat emasculated).
If you, no matter what sex you are, are approached by someone who expresses a romantic interest in you, you have some options.
First, you can avoid the issue, change the subject, and so on. Only those with a bit of experience will understand you, and if someone actually IS dangerous to you, this is a good way to trigger them.
Second, you can consider them scum of the Earth for harassing you, and either tell them or other people how terrible it was to almost be assaulted. Aggression typically feeds aggression, and this is recipe one for it. Whether they are dangerous or not, you can be certain they will be disgusted with you.
The third option is to give them a clear, unequivocal answer. Saying "No thank you." is unambiguous and clear, while at the same time showing respect for their question. Very rarely does this ignite someone, and if it does, your answer would not have mattered anyway.
Still, chances are that that person has been working up their courage to ask you and finally managed it. It doesn't give them any rights whatsoever, but respecting this is good form. Getting a clear "no" makes them disappointed, but it is something they can deal with.
Of course this is not the only situation. People behave badly, especially with alcohol in their bodies, for lots of different reasons. Excluding alcohol, especially excesses of it including when others get very drunk, is a very good way to lessen the risks you expose yourself to. Getting drunk is something you do with good friends, to my thinking. If they get too sloshed, nothing prevents you from leaving. Furthermore, if someone is dangerous when drunk, it's typically pretty clear that they don't feel well long before bad things(tm) happen.
Note that this about clear answers is by no means limited to the situation above. Working in mental health, it's consequently the best method of communicating, especially bad news, difficult concepts, or things you think may trigger someone.
Uh, hi there, Sissyl. Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting and would like to find out more about your ideas. Would you like to do it?
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Sure, Doodlebug. I am always interested in talking. What did you have in mind?
Hey, uh, BNW, you wanna do it?
Nope, forgot the jenga set.
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It turns out, BNW, it only takes one-in-two, not one-in-ten.
[Turns to Sissyl, blushing brightly]
Uh, so, what do you, uh, think of, uh, revolutionary socialism?...
Maybe it's just how I was raised, but I'd have a damn hard time letting that guy continue to harrass that gal on the bus. It goes against everything I was raised to believe being a man is. Chivalry? Maybe. Maybe it's a throwback gender role. But men don't shout at women like that. Ever. Not on my watch. Ugly or hot, makes no difference. It's so damned disrespectful.
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Acting on that desire with strangers isn't going to be welcome 99% of the time outside of situations that exist for that purpose. If you're at the local pick-up joint bar, go right ahead. If you're walking down the street, propositioning total strangers, it's unwelcome.
This is ridiculous. Is that how your parents met, in a bar? Is that how they were introduced? Is that supposed to be the only place people ever meet?
If it's someone you know, then you should have an idea whether it's welcome or not.
Obviously not because you have to ask.
It's about, as Ambrosia Slaad said and you quote: "certain behaviors in certain situations that are unwelcome, or even threatening. That women really don't want to be approached for sexual encounters by strangers throughout the day."
I really don't want to be approached by salesmen or jehova's witnesses, so its my job to tell them to get lost not requirement to change their behavior.
If some guy knew exactly what women wanted and what they didn't he could make a fortune writing books. If you don't keep asking you're not going to get anywhere.
Look at the link that Treppa posted a while back. Guys don't usually start be asking if they can have sex. They start by trying to start up a conversation.
I believe the man technically asked for coffee which usually means he wants to try to start there and then go further.
And it's not just once. It may look like it to us, since most guys won't try more than once with the same woman, but they have to deal with it again and again, always wondering if this is going to be the one who'll blow up. Is this the one who'll try to follow me home?
Because it can happen. It does happen.
And you're transferring one behavior and treating it like the other, transferring the actions from one person to another, and the actions of a small minority to everyone. Its not fair to the individuals asking and not fair to men in general.
And again, it's not some magical reading women's minds to know what's appropriate. It's basic common sense.
Your 'common sense' ideas are that you can't hit on a woman outside of a bar. Society doesn't seem to agree.
Respecting boundaries.
He is. He needs to ask where it is first.
Of course, it's crazy to expect women to be able to protect themselves from such a threat. That's the responsibility of the menfolk.
/sarcasm
Ok, going through the link With a man's eye view. Og Grunt
The most common approach is to walk up to where I am sitting with body language that practically screams LEAVE ME ALONE
Women think their body language is clear. Holy cow on a stick ... no. Just no, its not. This is at least half the problems. All those signs you THINK you're sending? They don't work.
The arm over the railing is definitely over the line. (thats touching, a clear boundary)
This serves the double purpose of getting my attention and trapping me in a conversation.
Yes, they're getting your attention because they want to start a conversation, likely with the intent of it leading to sex within a few weeks.
"Trapped" in a conversation seems like nonsense to me. If you don't like the conversation don't have one, stop talking, or tell them to stuff it.
Anoying teenagers on a train ----I say yes, that it happens all the time, and he tells he’ll beat them up for me if they come back.
I think its interesting that one form of treating women differently here is lauded. Usually if three punks are bothering a man the man has to beat them up on his own, not get help from passerby's. With a woman assistance is far more likely.
I want them to be forced to feel, for even one minute, what it feels like to have so much verbal hatred and physical intimidation thrown at them for nothing more than being female and not wanting to share.
Try asking any fat kid in school. I used to get punched in the face on a regular basis going to school, on the am playground, followed by "how many kids does it take to beat up the fat kid" at lunch and then punched on the ride home. It wasn't verbal intimidation it was physical assault and it just gets passed off as "boys being boys".
Humans suck.
It's the responsibility of all of us to protect others from crazy dangerous people when the situation demands it.
There wasn't really much she could do in that situation short of actually attacking him, which would be risky.
Pepper spray?
Acting on that desire with strangers isn't going to be welcome 99% of the time outside of situations that exist for that purpose. If you're at the local pick-up joint bar, go right ahead. If you're walking down the street, propositioning total strangers, it's unwelcome.This is ridiculous. Is that how your parents met, in a bar? Is that how they were introduced? Is that supposed to be the only place people ever meet?
I know my grandmother approached my grandfather at a bus stop.
Its a story they proudly tell their grandkids about, emphasizing how you can meet people anywhere.Just because you don't want be hit on, it doesn't mean that other people aren't interested. If they are being respectful, what is the problem?
If you never take a chance, you never get anywhere.
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There is a fine line between romantic and stalker/creepy/unwanted advance.
I disagree with thejeff that you can't proposition someone you don't know unless you are in a bar or local pick up place and that it is unwanted 99% of the time.
The key is if you are declined you walk away no harm no foul. There should be nothing wrong with someone asking as long as they are polite and not interupt a current conversation or the like. Also make certain not to scare the person either, might help with your success rate too.
People are all different in this life you never know who you may run into and what their ideas and feelings maybe, if you never ask you never know and vice versa. BNW you did a fine job explaning this yourself I just thought I might add a word or two in here.
Heh. I've been called "Captain Save-A-Ho" for my outlook.
I suppose someday we will be able to overcome how the sexes are built physicly, mentaly, and emotionaly different.
Until then, I guess I'll remain a chivalrous cowboy jerkface.
I would suggest that men should stop talking to women and let women initiate relationships. As men are unwittingly threatening in what they do it is better to miss out on a relationship then be labeled a mysoginist, chauvinist or potential rapist.
Sadly, for some individuals, this is actually becoming common.
Although in my instance, I tend to generally be much more aloof and it usually requires an aggressive and/or pursuant female to initiate it. I would be more apt to question why in the world she's bothering to hit on me. Ha!
72 virgins!? Why would i want to downgrade?
Overrated. I'd rather them know what they're doing and skilled in the arts.
72 virgins!? Why would i want to downgrade?Overrated. I'd rather them know what they're doing and skilled in the arts.
How dare you objectify women this way. The misogyny in this thread is rampant.
I honestly think it says more about internet cultures, factionalization and flame wars than it does about atheism.
Yes, because the humans on the internet are not the humans in the real world.
And guys, describe her scenario to a couple women in your life... alone, in a foreign country, after giving a talk about men's threats of violence to her and other women, to be followed onto an elevator by a complete stranger who corners her and starts hitting on her.
He didn't approach her downstairs; he waited until she was isolated in an elevator with him.
At 4AM.
He doesn't know or stop to think that elevators don't magically & immediately let you stop the ride and exit, or that such egress can be prevented.
Especially by someone who probably outweighs her and is stronger than her by a clear advantage.
Wow.
Ok, asserting that he "waited" to talk to her and "followed" her into the elevator? No evidence whatsoever of that happening so let's stop lying, eh?No, he doesn't stop to think yadda yadda, because he has no reason to. He's not a rapist. Her fears of him raping her are therefore irrational. Are we to tailor our behavior so that the most irrational among us cannot possibly misconstrue the most benign of actions? There's not enough rubber padding in all the world.
"Probably outweighs her and is stronger" how very sexist of you. Let's make assumptions about his build because he's male. Would it be different if he were effeminate? How about a dwarf? How about in a wheelchair? Nope, sorry, by virtue of being born with a penis you have to take extra precautions so no one thinks you're going to rape you. You have to start every conversation with "I'm not going to rape you!!! Would you like fries with that?" really?
The "don't take this the wrong way" part, that wasn't maybe him being polite and trying to make sure she didn't, ya know, think he was a rapist?
Oh, but that's just what a rapist WOULD say...
There are social folkways that some people may be aloof and not give pause to realize what they're doing and then there are some that can be flagrant to the point of norm violation.
Regardless of what convention you're at or for whatever reason you're staying at a hotel, if someone walks up to you w/o having prior casual acquaintance with you in the past and asks if you want to come up to their room at 4 in the morning for a drink, what is your first thought that comes to mind? Doesn't have to be an elevator. It could be in the lobby for all that matters.
You. Me. My room. Drink. 4 am. Gut reaction.
Behavior patterns are different though. We act differently when not face to face with people. I suspect non-verbal cues have far more of a role in communication than we usually think.I honestly think it says more about internet cultures, factionalization and flame wars than it does about atheism.Yes, because the humans on the internet are not the humans in the real world.
This.
Among other things. If there were as many people shouting at each other IRL as there are participating in flame wars on the internet, I wouldn't be able to sleep for the din of violent screaming.In real life the people I talk to are people I know, who are my friends, and it's likely to take more than a bad joke or a simple disagreement for me to boycott them, factionalize my friends against one or multiple people, etc etc.
So what you're saying basically boils down to "come ooon, we knoooow what he wanted!" but we don't get to make that assumption. Hell, maybe he was gay!
How dare you objectify women this way. The misogyny in this thread is rampant.72 virgins!? Why would i want to downgrade?Overrated. I'd rather them know what they're doing and skilled in the arts.
You call it objectification; I call it exemplary talent. I'd put them on a pedestal. They'll be teaching me.
But I have no desire to become anyone's martyr for the chance.
And thus I'm resigned to just following through with a mere forum post in response.
So what you're saying basically boils down to "come ooon, we knoooow what he wanted!" but we don't get to make that assumption. Hell, maybe he was gay!
I'd reply if I knew what you were quoting.
I just don't know your intent.
<suspicion arouses>