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needing to fill the role of a skill monkey, and i haven't played a Power Attacking STR Rogue before, so I'd like to give it a shot...
However, I could use some help! I don't want to be a Half-Orc (so no Skulking Slayer).
Plus I am playing with a couple new players, so avoiding some of spotlight is quite fine. However, I still want to be capable enough in combat to help one of them should they need it.
20 point buy, Human
STR 15 (17)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 09
traits
Armor Expert/Reactionary?
Carefully Hidden
Alternate Racial Feature: Focused Study (gain Skill Focus feat at levels 1, 8, 16)
1 Improved Initiative
(1) Skill Focus: UMD
3 Cleave
5 Iron Will
7 Furious Focus
(8) Skill Focus: Perception
9 Combat Reflexes
11 Toughness
13 Improved Iron Will
15 ???Suggestions???
(16) Skill Focus: Stealth
Rogue Talent
2 Combat Trick: Power Attack
4 Offensive Defense
6 Resiliency
8 Fast Stealth
10 Crippling Strike
12 Opportunist
14 Hunter's Surprise
16 Another Day
I took the Alternate Human ability since i had planned on taking Skill Focus: UMD anyway, albeit at a higher level.
Again, my goal here is to be a good support combatant, while being a good skill monkey. I don't want to steal the show from any of my new players ( i want them to have a good time, to keep them coming back for more) and I want to take care of the things they may not think of.
Thanks Everyone!
no, i haven't. I don't like the sap master cheese. Seriously, what adventurer goes out into a world full of dragons and other dangerous monsters, and decides that a sap is a good idea as a primary weapon?
Ridiculous.
I mean, good suggestion and all from an optimal standpoint, it is merely my issue with the feat chain itself.
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Seriously, what adventurer goes out into a world full of dragons and other dangerous monsters, and decides that a sap is a good idea as a primary weapon?
They don't.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +3d6, Sap Adept.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.
As the feat states you do not need to use a sap. It works with any bludgeoning weapon.
My suggestion: Cornugon Smash + Intimidating Prowess + Shatter Defenses.
You can use your Rogue Talents to pick up Weapon Focus via Weapon Training and Intimidating Prowess via Strong Impression. That makes the only feats you would have to spend into the chain being Power Attack and Dazzling Display. You were going to get Power Attack anyway which you were picking up with Combat Trick.
With this build I also recommend BBT's suggestion of using the Thug unless you care about the loss of trapfinding. It still works well without Thug, but the archetype just fits very well with the concept and mechanics. And honestly, Sap Master would also be a good fit if you were going to use a bludgeoning weapon. Cause lets face it... backstabbing someone with a great club is just awesome.
and yet, Rogue Eidelon's guide to Rogues states that the Cornugon Smash/Shatter Defenses line really isn't that great...
And I do care about trap finding, seeing as that i am currently the only character in the group playing a class/archetype with trapfinding.
I picked up Power Attack with a Rogue Talent because waiting til level 3 might be awhile... We tend to level slowly.
and yet, Rogue Eidelon's guide to Rogues states that the Cornugon Smash/Shatter Defenses line really isn't that great...
it's worth mentioning that Rogue Eidolon's guide doesn't include anything that came out after the APG, so it doesn'y say a single thing about very useful feats like Cornugon Smash or Enforcer that didn't exist at the time he wrote the guide. He does mention Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses, but the likes of Cornugon Smash and Enforcer are major game-changer.
Being able to render a foe shaken as a free action instead of needing a full-round action seriously changes the dynamics of the situation. The rogue gets to generate his own sneak attacks instead of needing a flanking buddy (and being stuck if he's up against an enemy that's immune to flanking). Not to mention flat-footed AC is almost always easier to hit, something any 3/4 BAB class appreciates.
What weapon are you using? Don't you need to spend a feat on martial weapon prof. in some two-handed weapon?
What weapon are you using? Don't you need to spend a feat on martial weapon prof. in some two-handed weapon?
There are plenty of weapons Rogues are already proficient with that can be used with two hands.
What weapon are you using? Don't you need to spend a feat on martial weapon prof. in some two-handed weapon?
yeah... Longspear, Longsword, even use the swashbuckler archetype to gain a martial weapon proficiency.
I also meant to mention I would probably take the Scout archetype.
Have you considered an Urban Ranger. If you want the skill monkey position and decent combat ability they are probably better than a Rogue. Gives you all martial weapons and medium armor. Has the Trap Finding so that is not a problem.
needing to fill the role of a skill monkey, and i haven't played a Power Attacking STR Rogue before, so I'd like to give it a shot...
However, I could use some help! I don't want to be a Half-Orc (so no Skulking Slayer).
Plus I am playing with a couple new players, so avoiding some of spotlight is quite fine. However, I still want to be capable enough in combat to help one of them should they need it.Again, my goal here is to be a good support combatant, while being a good skill monkey. I don't want to steal the show from any of my new players ( i want them to have a good time, to keep them coming back for more) and I want to take care of the things they may not think of.
Do you know what the new players will have for PCs? Since you're being nice enough to fill gaps, I'd suggest seeing what they come up with and build accordingly. For example, Skill Focus on UMD may not be that important if you have a cleric or wizard in the group.
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So, to incorporate Cornugon Smash, Intimidating Prowess, Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses...
20 point buy, human (Focused Study alternate trait)
STR 15 (17)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 09
trait:
armor expert/Reactionary??
Carefully Hidden
1 Weapon Focus
(1) Skill Focus: UMD
3 Dazzling Display
5 Furious Focus
7 Cornugon Smash
(8) Skill Focus: Perception
9 Shatter Defenses
11 Iron Will
13 Improved Initiative
15 Toughness
(16) Skill Focus: Stealth
Rogue Talents
2 Combat Trick: Power Attack
4 offensive Defense
6 Strong Impression (Intimidating Prowess)
8 Fast Stealth
10 Crippling Strike
12 Skill Mastery?
14 Hunters Surprise
16 Another Day
Is that alright? It is quite cramped... Even more feat dependent than TWF.
Thanks!
@Mysterious Stranger:
Yes, I have, though I don't like the archetype. I REALLY dislike the Favored Community mechanic. It pretty much sucks for any campaign not set in a city or two.
@Gray
I do know, somewhat... one gal is playing a Gunslinger, another guy is playing a Barbarian... and those are our two new players. I helped both of them with their characters, and explained quite thoroughly their characters.
The other guy is a bit of a question mark. He has a propensity for sorcerers, and the occasional battle cleric. Either way (judging from the previous games i have played with him) he tends to be selfish with his spells: evocation, self buffing, etc. Very rarely do the rest of the party get buffs, and I have never seen him with a heal spell.
(he optimizes well, but he forgets that sharing is caring.)
EDIT: Also, would a dip (1-4 levels) into Fighter or Barbarian be a decent thing to do? Med. Armor might be nice, as well as martial weapons. Plus, Fighter can move without hindrance in med. armor, and barbarian fast movement evens it out.
Thanks for the great comments and suggestions everyone, You've been quite helpful!
EDIT: Also, would a dip (1-4 levels) into Fighter or Barbarian be a decent thing to do? Med. Armor might be nice, as well as martial weapons. Plus, Fighter can move without hindrance in med. armor, and barbarian fast movement evens it out.
Thanks for the great comments and suggestions everyone, You've been quite helpful!
A Fighter dip would be rather nice for getting some extra feats, since you've been feeling a bit low on those.
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Barbarians go well with Rogue. Play a Shoanti and use an Earthbreaker + Sap Master!
Personally, regardless of which build you go with I'd consider taking Furious Focus sooner if possible. It synergizes soooo well with Power Attack - especially at low levels and even more so for a 3/4 BAB class. The last thing a 3/4 bab class needs is penalties to attack rolls.
If you do decide to dip Fighter or Barbarian take that class first - more HP and +1 Bab gives more options for feats @ first level. Heck, take Weapon Focus, Power Attack & Furious Focus at level 1 if you go Fighter.
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Avoid sap master its a very very limited feat chain, (only works with nonlethal weapons that can deal sneak attack so Saps or Merciful bludgeoning weapons), only applies to flatfooted opponents (flanking and feinting and even invisibility doesnt apply).
Sap Adept is slightly less restricted than sap master (as it applies to all sneak attacks not just ones vs flatfooted opponents).
That's what the Cornugon Smash/Shatter Defenses combo is for; since it gives you the ability to render an opponent flat-footed against your attacks.
Also, the Bludgeoner feat is made for Sap Masters.
Hector Gwath: I like that build and I think it will be effective and give you the feel that you are looking for. I am happy that you took the advice of myself and other posters. I agree with what others have said with the advice they gave. Perhaps one change I would make would be to drop Skill Focus: UMD and possibly trying to get Furious Focus earlier.
Avoid sap master its a very very limited feat chain, (only works with nonlethal weapons that can deal sneak attack so Saps or Merciful bludgeoning weapons), only applies to flatfooted opponents (flanking and feinting and even invisibility doesnt apply).
Sap Adept is slightly less restricted than sap master (as it applies to all sneak attacks not just ones vs flatfooted opponents).
Caderyn, when you use Shatter Defenses with Cornugon Smash your foe is flat-footed. You can also deal nonlethal damage with any weapon at a -4 penalty on the attack. With this build that isn't much of a problem due to your foe being flatfooted (no Dex to AC), sickened (if using Thug), shaken and thanks to Furious Focus will not incur negatives to hit on the first power attack. So not only will their opponent be easier to hit due to being flat footed but also will not be able to mount a suitable offense due to stacking conditions. This also works well with Offensive Defense which the OP decided to take. And, as you said, this also works well with Merciful bludgeoning weapons.
The mechanics for this to work and for it to work well are all there. I'm not sure what you are seeing as a flaw.
Also, I might recommend the following Rogue Talent for this sort of build:
Befuddling Strike (Ex)
Benefit: When the rogue deals sneak attack damage against an opponent, that opponent takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls against the rogue for 1d4 rounds.
Also, you can get Skill Focus: Perception by taking Canny Observer Rogue Talent.
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I don't care so much about skill focus:perception, as I do about UMD.
I might make a dip into fighter for a few feats... Weapon Specialization might even be alright, especially if i took the Weapon Master archetype. That would give me three feats (two if i get Specialization; might as well since i have Weapon Focus?) and Weapon Training. Thus, Gloves of Dueling might become a worthy investment.
That would also leave me enough room for my Skill Focus: UMD as well...
1 Weapon Focus
(1) Skill Focus: UMD
3 Furious Focus
5 Dazzling Display
7 Cornugon Smash
(8)Skill Focus: Perception
9 Weapon Specialization
11 Iron Will
13 Toughness
15 Improved Iron Will
(16) Skill Focus: Stealth
Fighter Feats:
1 Power Attack
2 (3) Improved Initiative???
4 (7)Shatter Defenses
Rogue Talents
2 (4) Strong Impression (Intimidating Prowess)
4 (8) Offensive Defense
6 (10)Fast Stealth
8 (12)Surprise Attack
10(14)Crippling Strike
12(16)Hunter's Surprise
Thanks for the help everyone!
Yeah, I think taking 4 levels of Fighter for Weapon Master would be good. What weapon did you have in mind, by the way? With the Fighter levels it opens up all martial weapons so you have a lot of choices.
Maybe take out Fast Stealth and replace with the Canny Observer Rogue Talent? This would allow you to move up some of your other feats and if Fast Stealth was important to you later you could always take it then. Also, I don't think that Improved Initiative is as important for this build. Maybe take the afore mentioned Befuddling Strike instead?
Hm. You know, that is a good point. I guess I have typically seen this used before with builds that used Unarmed Strike or natural weapons with Feral Combat Training so it was never an issue there as those attacks can naturally be non-lethal anyway.
I don't know if it fits with your idea, but another sort of build you could do is a Sap-Master/Whip-Master.
As a rogue you'd need EWP to get the whip, but you threaten at reach and adjacent and can deal lethal damage with the whip, and you get all the Sap Master bonuses. ANd if not for this character, It could be a cool trick for another character
Yeah, I think taking 4 levels of Fighter for Weapon Master would be good. What weapon did you have in mind, by the way? With the Fighter levels it opens up all martial weapons so you have a lot of choices.
Maybe take out Fast Stealth and replace with the Canny Observer Rogue Talent? This would allow you to move up some of your other feats and if Fast Stealth was important to you later you could always take it then. Also, I don't think that Improved Initiative is as important for this build. Maybe take the afore mentioned Befuddling Strike instead?
Im not sure about weapon choice... I know there won't be any magic marts, so probably something common. (so many choices can be overwhelming for our new players) Perhaps just a longsword: common, and i can use it one handed if necessary.
I can't really move up any of the feats since most of them require BAB +6, or intimidate, 6 ranks. Either way, I can't really move up the stuff that matters.
Thus, it doesn't hurt me to get 3 extra skill focus feats, for the cost of the one I was going to take anyway.
Why Canny Observer? Skill Focus gives +3/+6 to everything, and like i said, it doesn't delay any of my important feats, and nets me two extra skill focus feats for free.
Canny Observer would allow you to spend a Rogue Talent rather than a feat. In your build feats are at a higher premium than Rogue Talents are.
If you are going to be expected to hold the line then having feats like Toughness earlier is going to help. Also if you use both Befuddling Strike and Offensive Defense then your opponent will have a -4 to hit you. Add on Cornugon Smash + Shatter Defenses and that becomes -6. IMO, those feats/Rogue Talents are all your bread and butter and doing everything you can to get them as early as possible is good. You can still get everything in your build its just some things would come later.
From the sneak attack section for rogues
"With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty."
Hence my point that you require a Sap or a Merciful Blugeoning Weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage and thus qualify for sap master, I will agree the Cornugon Smash and Shatter defences does apply to render an opponent flatfooted to your 2nd attack onwards against any given opponent (as it would apply every round till the foe is dead). I dont however feel its worth dipping 2 feats into Sap adept and Master and limiting your weapon choice to a sap, or merciful blugeoning weapon for it.
The previously mentioned Bludgeoner feat takes care of the issue of weapon choice just fine.
Besides, if you want to focus on nonlethal damage getting the Merciful enchantment isn't a bad idea anyway.
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Using an Earth Breaker with the Bludgeoner and Sap Master feats is good idea. This is even better with the Thug archetype.
If you take the Shoanti Tattoo trait, you will be proficient with Earth Breakers, Klars, and Shoanti bolas. This will save you a feat. I suggest the Dominator trait as you second trait.
That doesn't take care of the issue, guys.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
Benefit: You take no penalty on attack rolls for using a lethal bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal damage.
The weapon still deals lethal damage. The feat simply removes the -4 penalty. The penalty isn't the issue. The issue is the, "She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage...". I'm afraid Bludgeoner doesn't change that.
Oh, pft. I missed the special. That is totally correct.
Special: A rogue with this feat can use a lethal bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal damage with a sneak attack.
However, it is pretty deep to take 3 feats to accomplish. At later levels I suppose it is worth it as it doubles your SA damage. It works better if you use a build that uses unarmed strikes though.
I respectfully disagree. Going unarmed saves you a feat, gets better damage dice especially with the use of Monk's Robes, allows for Flurry of Blows with Sneak Attacks and the ability to use Dragon Style to further improve your damage output. And you do not have to switch weapons when you need to deal lethal damage. You can still use all of the other feats you mentioned as well but do not need to take Bludgeoner because you have it built in with unarmed strikes.
And again, Flurry of Blows with Sneak Attack is the equivalent of TWF with Sneak Attack. It is a superior choice when you have a lot of Sneak Attack dice. And since that is what Sap Master is all about it is more true here. And with Dragon Style there is no downfall because you are doing the same damage you would be with a two handed weapon but are getting more attacks. That is a better feat investment because it is improving your character rather than taking Bludgeoner which simply makes it work rather than improving anything.
Again, this isn't meant specifically for the character in this thread because it is clear that he wants to use a weapon. I'm talking in a more general sense.
It may be good to start at Fighter 1 for the HD, and extra feat, to start things off
Taking PA, Enforcer and Blugeoner, then more fighter for Weapon Focus Earthbreaker
Lv 3 starts Rogue 1 with sap adept?
Doing F2/R1 looses you 1d6+2 damage, +2 to hit with the extra BAB and Weapon Focus
THen you have a talent at 4th and feat at 5th to boost SA till you want more fighter fr Weap Spec.
So would you suggest Master fo Many styles to get dragon style and a Flurry that does not improve since the character is mainly going robe?
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Well, it either Bludgeoner, or Improved Unarmed Strike, and with Bludgeoner, you can switch from lethal to nonlethal without problem.
Each has it's ups and down. Earth Breaker does better at single attacks, but Unarmed does better at full attacks.
If you want to two weapon fight with the Earth Breaker, you can combine it with a dwarven boulder helmet or a bite. A bite deal bludgeoning damage, so you can use the Bludgeoner feat. You can nab a bite with the Tusked trait, or two levels in Barbarian.
you can switch back and forth with IUS, and with MoMS you can get that and Dragon Style, and with the second level of monk, you get another style feat, not that i think it's an optimal solution, but a Dragon Style Scout can charge over Difficult Terrain and deliver all kinds of SA damage.
WF unarmed strike leading into Dazzling Display also sounds hilarious. You do that silly thing they do in movies where they spin around with kicks and flail their arms about, but it's actually intimidating as opposed to a gag!
Yeah... still not using Sap Master, Bludgeoner, etc... Still not sure why everyone is still talking about it. It was brought up, and no matter how many times it gets brought up again, I'm not using that feat line.
Thanks for the discussion though.
For a two-hander wielding scout, I'd aim for Spring Attack. Whenever an enemy stands at least 5 ft away (archer/caster who took a step back or someone with reach), you can walk right up to them, hit them with a sneak attack and use te rest of your movement to walk behind them for easier flanking. I recently built a two-handed rogue. Looked something like this:
I personally went with an half-orc and the toothy trait for an additional attack. Yeah, I know you said human. Should work just as well.
STR 19 (17+2 racial) DEX 14 CON 14 INT 11 WIS 10 CHA 7
1 Dodge
2 Weapon Training
3 Power Attack
4 Combat Trick - Furious Focus
5 Mobility
6 Offensive Defense
7 Spring Attack
From here on it doesn't really matter. The build just tries to make the most of the chosen archetype.
two handed rogue hmm you may take a look at the half orc rogue archetype skulking slayer
two handed rogue hmm you may take a look at the half orc rogue archetype skulking slayer
If you bothered to read my OP, you would see the part where I specifically said no half Orc, and no skulking slayer.
My apologies, I skimmed the opening post.