Multiple Target Touch spells impossible to use?


Rules Questions

51 to 71 of 71 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Shadow Lodge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The issue is that you guys are saying that casting a spell is a standard action, and that touching 6 creatures is a Full Round by itself. There is no clause saying you can combine both of these elements together. By RAW, they are independent features.

"You can touch up to 6 creatures as part of casting" is the phrase that combines these elements by RAW. If someone said "as part of your admission fee, you can ride our ponies," would you expect to be charged extra for the pony ride? The cast action is the admission fee. The touches are included and do not cost an extra action.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Where does it say (or even correlate between rules) that you can touch 6 willing creatures as part of a spell cast as a Full Round Action? Nowhere. It only lists that touching 6 creatures after-the-fact of casting a spell in the previous round is a FRA (which is technically illegal as per Holding the Charge, which means that rule itself is contradictory/illegal, and holds no ground). If it said that touching 6 creatures during spell cast is a FRA, then there wouldn't be any argument.

Logical argument aside, I found another more explicit reference. Page 183 CRB, Table 8-2, Actions in Combat.

Under Full-round actions: "Use a touch spell on up to 6 friends." Not "touch up to six friends" but "use a touch spell." "Using" a touch spell must include both casting and delivering the touch.

Table also accessible on the SRD here.

Note on holding the charge: It says "if the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds," which would allow that rule to go into effect if a specific spell were developed that specifically said "unlike most multiple-target touch spells, Medium Rary's Good Touch allows the caster to hold the charge and touch multiple targets over the spell's duration." There are currently no spells I know of with that description, but if they were introduced there is room in the rules framework for them. Looks like the devs were thinking ahead on that one as HangarFlying suggested.


They should let your "Touch" travel through people. So if you touch A who is touching B both would be effected and so on.

Come on now and gather round to hold hands everybody.

It would mean you don't need everyone around you so a little bit of a placement advantage might be gained if you have the time to set up a formation but I don't think it would be enough to increase the effectiveness of the spells significantly.

The Exchange

Gauss wrote:


Round 1: Cast the spell and touch multiple allies

- Gauss

Any conclusion on how a multiple touch spell like Hide from Undead can effect more than six targets? RAW states you can turn it into a full round cast to get six willing targets, but only a "spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds" would be able to touch more than six targets. Is Hide from Undead - or any of the other level based spells - in this category?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Gauss wrote:

Skylancer4:

Clearly you misunderstand my purpose here. My purpose is not to invalidate a variety of spells. It is to CORRECT a problem in the rules. When we bring up problems in the rules to a Paizo employee such as James Jacobs what is his response? Create a thread and FAQ it.

Save that it's not really a problem. You touch the multiple targets as part of casting the spell. There's no holding a charge it's just done. So essentially all the targets you want to effect have to be with in touching range when the spell is cast. Since just about all of the spells of this type are essentially prep spells cast outside of combat, it's not an issue.

The Exchange

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
LazarX wrote:


Save that it's not really a problem. You touch the multiple targets as part of casting the spell. There's no holding a charge it's just done. So essentially all the targets you want to effect have to be with in touching range when the spell is cast. Since just about all of the spells of this type are essentially prep spells cast outside of combat, it's not an issue.

What you're saying isn't RAW. You can touch multiple targets as part of the casting as long as it is six or less targets. You could have nine targets within 5' (you and the eight squares around you) and you'd still be restricted to touching six in a round. The issue is there are several spells with Targets of "one touched creature/level". Are these intended to be capped at six total? My home game has eight PCs - we use two spell slots to get all eight PCs unless a developer clarifies the rule.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
eldergod0515 wrote:
LazarX wrote:


Save that it's not really a problem. You touch the multiple targets as part of casting the spell. There's no holding a charge it's just done. So essentially all the targets you want to effect have to be with in touching range when the spell is cast. Since just about all of the spells of this type are essentially prep spells cast outside of combat, it's not an issue.

What you're saying isn't RAW. You can touch multiple targets as part of the casting as long as it is six or less targets. You could have nine targets within 5' (you and the eight squares around you) and you'd still be restricted to touching six in a round. The issue is there are several spells with Targets of "one touched creature/level". Are these intended to be capped at six total? My home game has eight PCs - we use two spell slots to get all eight PCs unless a developer clarifies the rule.

Yes what I'm saying isn't RAW. Will people stop bringing that up like it was the Holy Word. RAW is not complete, RAW does not cover every single aspect of running the game. You absolutely can NOT run this game solely on RAW. That's what DM's are for to adjudicate the niggly bits like this. It's up to them how they will handle it. In 90 percent plus of the cases you will find that most DM's will handle it in away operationally that's just like the way I addressed it. Why? because it's not something that's worth slowing down play over in almost every circumstance where it will come up.


Anyone know if we know the answer to this question yet?


Atalius wrote:
Anyone know if we know the answer to this question yet?
From PRD
PRD wrote:
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.

As a house rule I allow the caster to move before or after the cast and include anyone they were adjacent to this round as a touch. But that is a house rule, and only on beneficial touch spells that affect multiple targets touched.

The official answer is 6.


Ohh I see, so could I use this touch attack over and over again for rounds/level effectively blinding them every round?


Atalius wrote:
Ohh I see, so could I use this touch attack over and over again for rounds/level effectively blinding them every round?

What touch attack are you talking about? If you want an answer, it really helps if you give details to your question. The way your asking now the only answer I could give would be "read the spell, do what it says."


Sorry I mean if I touch six creatures and they are all adjacent to me, the following round could I touch them all again?


Atalius wrote:
Sorry I mean if I touch six creatures and they are all adjacent to me, the following round could I touch them all again?

That is going to depend on the specific spell.

What spell are you asking about?


Touch of blindness


Do you really have 6 people willing to be affected by Touch of Blindness?

Touch of Blindness is normally going to require an attack roll and therefore be a standard action - 1 target/round.

touch spells wrote:
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.

If you have 6 willing targets you have two choices.

a) as part of the casting of the spell you can touch 6 willing targets, but all targets have to be part of that casting - you cannot add new targets so effectively lose all other uses.

b)cast the spell without targeting anyone and the next turn affect up to 6 targets as a full round action, and on the third+ turn you can repeat that until you run out of charges or targets.


You've been very helpful thank you for the help. Just one last thing I hope you could clear up, would the Touch of Blindness last 8 rounds even if I choose to cast another spell during that time would I still be able to come back to Touch of Blindness the following round?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Oops option b is almost certainly completely wrong. ignore it. option b) is scuppered by the durations text (which I didn't check).

durations wrote:
you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

on your new question:

holding the charge wrote:
If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

You lose the Touch of Darkness if you cast another spell.


Atalius wrote:
You've been very helpful thank you for the help. Just one last thing I hope you could clear up, would the Touch of Blindness last 8 rounds even if I choose to cast another spell during that time would I still be able to come back to Touch of Blindness the following round?

Touch of Blindness is considered a hostile action. Unless the GM says they are willing targets, or individual players give permission, you aren't going to get non-attack touches.

That said, you do get to make touch attacks based on your BAB, and if you get iterative attacks or have an effect like Haste that lets you get an additional attack you can make multiple touches. That does require a full round action, so it means you'll only be able to take a 5' step between attacks.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

You don't get multiple touch attacks from BAB. You can make multiple unarmed strikes and deliver a touch spell through them, but you're rolling against normal AC, not touch AC. And you can't do that on the round you cast the spell, unless you're a Magus using Spell Combat.

FAQ wrote:

Touch Spells: In the Magic and Combat chapters, it says that I can touch a single ally as a standard action or up to six allies as a full-round action and that I can combine delivering a touch spell with a natural attack or unarmed strike. But what if I just want to deliver the touch spell to an enemy? It just says I can do it “round after round.”

Making a touch attack against an enemy by touching it, beyond the free action to do so as part of casting the spell, is a standard action. It can’t be used with a full attack.

LINK

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Personally I have not seen an issue with this topic in 20+ years of gaming, so it seems most GMs get it working in spite of a very close and narrow reading of some rules.

Multiple touch spells usually have a touch per round and most will stick with that 'touch rate' calling for rolls to hit if the target is conscious and not willing to be touched. Otherwise the spell outlines the parameters.
6 is the maximum touched creatures which is why some transport spells may take two castings. Is 6 fair? Hmmm... ask your GM when the game gets to high level.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Offensive touch spell? One touch per round if using a melee touch attack, unless the spell says otherwise. Melee touch attacks don't use iteratives. You can do more than one per round if you attack with unarmed strikes and/or natural weapons, though they usually target regular AC.


Remember, if a strange wizard tries to touch you when you don't want to be touched, yell out "doctor stranger danger!"

51 to 71 of 71 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Multiple Target Touch spells impossible to use? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.