My tanking dwarf just hit 3rd level in PFS, and I need a little advice as to what I should do next.
What I'd like to do is build him into an all-around fighter, a good tank, a decent damage-dealer, not a heavy-hitter or a wall but someone who can do most things.
What I am not going to do is switch him to be any kind of spellcaster. Doesn't match the concept. Besides which, he doesn't qualify for any spellcasting class except maybe cleric. I am also not going TWF.
Here's his writeup:
Urist McFightingDwarf Male Dwarf Fighter 2 (Going to 3)
STR 18 DEX 14 CON 16 (14 +2) INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 5
Skills: Climb +2 (Armor Check -6), Craft (Stonemason) +3
*Swim will NOT be one of his skills. Urist is deathly afraid of water.
Feats: Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe
Traits: Courageous, Indomitable Faith
Weapons: Dwarven Waraxe, Light Crossbow, Dagger
Armor Worn: Heavy Wooden Shield, Breastplate
What I'm wondering is, should I take the next level as Fighter, or multiclass into Barbarian for a level for fast movement and rage? Barbar gives me additional offense, but Fighter gets me closer to Fighter 4 and weapon specialization. Or is there a better class to go to for a multiclass dip, like Cavalier?
Pure fighter In PFS is actually quite strong. I have a level ten that will be twelve in a month or two. You may want to take just the base two weapon fighting and the shield fighting feats cos shield master at level twelve, while late, is great for saving money.
Note I know next to nothing about PFS only stuff.
So TWF even with the use of shield is out too? Is the crossbow a thematic thing? Just thought you might want to get a bow with that strength. Also with no casting do you mean no casting ability what so ever or no full casters? I do not have idea based on that but some might.
Well back to the main question. Well fast movement is useless untill you get mithril heavy armor. If you stick with fighter to at least 5th level you can benefit from gloves of dueling. I might stay a pure fighter because it is easy to make well rounded character, good AC especialy if you stick with the use of shield, will have the feats to spare for Iron will, taking bows as second weapon training and you can deal with enemies when moving to melee is not an option. Quick draw would not be a bad choice either, although later when you get multiple attacks you get the most out of it.
Take a look at the weapon master archtype in the APG. My lvl 9 dwarven Falcata specialist is a damage dealing machine with a strong AC. he can't do diplomacy or know anything about anything but anything you expect a fighter to do the weapon master can deliver. For movement Lunge, a reach weapon and Boots of striding & springing help. Or just have the wizard cast haste alot.
When you get the chance retrain the weapon focus dwarven waraxe into falchion or Nodachi , In pathfinder the notion of a tank is different from a tank in videogames you cant just waddle in and "get aggro" .
You tank by being able to deal as much damage as possible yet being within a respectable hit range so most gms who are using intelligent creatures or who may indeed be metagaming dont simply run the critters by you in favor of that tasty wizard .
So 2h is probably the best bet .
The reason why i suggested falchion or nodachi is the 18-20 crit range , Grab a keen wep or the improved critical feat and you will do some crazy damage in addition to applying nasty conditions via the crit feats.
Also abandon multiclass like a leper , favored class bonus + class features are much better than multiclassing.
As for a archetype id recomend the 2handed fighter archetype .
Mobility will be a big thing for those "smart" critters and having a 2hander is a great boon because you wont be penalized by moving and taking a standard action to attack (well comparatively speaking).
If you are deadset on roleplaying the whole dwarf thing and dont want to use a falchion keep the war axe but drop the shield and use it 2h wep .
Soo far the trade off is 3 damage for 2 ac but as you progress the trade off just gets better and better.
Especially with the 2handed fighter archetype being able to double your strength bonus is amazing.
Lets Say your 4th lvl so a +6 from power attack, Lets say you get a +2 strength From gear For a total of 20 = +5 , then Double that str mod for a grand total of 10 , +1 from magic wep .
That Equals Wep Damage + 17 that is a tank because it cant be ignored and if it is ignored then the creature ignoring it dies.
As for third lvl feats Furious focus is a boring choice but it works and iron will is always a staple.
Bigger Club wrote: Note I know next to nothing about PFS only stuff.
So TWF even with the use of shield is out too? Is the crossbow a thematic thing? Just thought you might want to get a bow with that strength. Also with no casting do you mean no casting ability what so ever or no full casters? I do not have idea based on that but some might.
Well back to the main question. Well fast movement is useless untill you get mithril heavy armor. If you stick with fighter to at least 5th level you can benefit from gloves of dueling. I might stay a pure fighter because it is easy to make well rounded character, good AC especialy if you stick with the use of shield, will have the feats to spare for Iron will, taking bows as second weapon training and you can deal with enemies when moving to melee is not an option. Quick draw would not be a bad choice either, although later when you get multiple attacks you get the most out of it.
The main problem with PFS is, first, the character won't be going above level 12, and second, limited magic item availability. Basically, it has to be made available to me during an adventure -- and different adventures have different availability lists for different tiers of play (party APLs). So, if I need heavy mithril armor, and it's available at tier 3 with this one adventure, but I play it at tier 2 -- I miss out on it being made available to me. And since I can only play the adventure once, that means the availability choice is gone forever. Unless another module makes it available...
Since I think I'll be going to heavier armor ASAP, I'll probably ditch the Barbar idea. Rage is nice, but Weapon Specialization gets me the same +2 to damage all the time, without dropping AC. And since my main goal is tanking, I think dropping AC would be bad.
I can always pick up Run at 5th for an extra 5' of movement. Or Iron Will.
I'm not dipping into TWF until possibly much later.
Stasiscell wrote: When you get the chance retrain the weapon focus dwarven waraxe into falchion or Nodachi [...] If you are deadset on roleplaying the whole dwarf thing and dont want to use a falchion keep the war axe but drop the shield and use it 2h wep . ABSOLUTELY NOT.
That is possibly the worst advice I've been given so far, thank you. While I don't mind dealing some damage, I want to tank, not be a striker. Urist is strictly sword-and-board. Period. End of line.
John-Andre wrote: Stasiscell wrote: When you get the chance retrain the weapon focus dwarven waraxe into falchion or Nodachi [...] If you are deadset on roleplaying the whole dwarf thing and dont want to use a falchion keep the war axe but drop the shield and use it 2h wep . ABSOLUTELY NOT.
That is possibly the worst advice I've been given so far, thank you. While I don't mind dealing some damage, I want to tank, not be a striker. Urist is strictly sword-and-board. Period. End of line. Dealing mediocre damage each round isnt being a tank.
Because you arent a threat you will be avoided in fact if your ac is sky high and your damage is low any intelligent creature/humanoid will put two and two together and figure out that the rest of your party can be put down first and you can be the dessert.
When it takes its 5 foot step and breaks off then rushes towards the cleric/wiz/sorc you will have to chase it.
Upon reaching it you will hit it for 1d10 + 9 (10-19 damage).
It is still healthy and ready to melt or eat your party members face off.
Or heck lets say it does target you.
Your ac is a grand total +2 higher and you are dealing less than half damage (not even factoring if this enemy has dr).
The Enemy will live longer it will attack more often .
In that period of time you may very well get hit and your opening yourself up to more damage than the 2h build.
You are asking for advice on how to be a threat and contribute to your party as a melee combatant i am giving that advice based on experience.
You wanted to multiclass barbarian? for the rage? thats a -2 ac right there with fatigue that alone would negate your shields benefit and leave you still doing less than the 2h build.
As a 2hander you can have a solid AC and a high HP pool.
But you get the added benefit of being able to kill something before it is able to do its damage or run amok.
At anypoint a enemy can roll a nat 20.
Every round that enemy lives he can hit you and he might be able to crit you.
You can be a threat to enemies without two handing a weapon. Especially with fighter because you can afford for the nice things such as step up chain, lunge snd that sort of stuff, that is more being a road block though. Granted THW are the more optimal choice no denying that but saying that sword and board is not viable choice is going pretty damn far.
Not doing enough damage to be ignored is not a problem. D10 weapon(at this level it still counts for something) +4 from str and +2 from power attack means average damage from a hit is 11.5 that is still around 1/3 of the HP of most CR 3 critters on more than few cases much more than that, Crits will have a very high chance of downing someone from full HP. With +7 to hit when power attacking has pretty good chances of hitting the things too.
Now granted as levels rise you do need to jump trough some hoops to keep the damage relevant, but with some tinkering it should never come it that creatures will ignore you because you are not doing enough damage, if they do target someone else it will most likely be because they are more vulnerable and can with relative ease do it.
Bigger Club wrote: You can be a threat to enemies without two handing a weapon. Especially with fighter because you can afford for the nice things such as step up chain, lunge snd that sort of stuff, that is more being a road block though. Granted THW are the more optimal choice no denying that but saying that sword and board is not viable choice is going pretty damn far.
Not doing enough damage to be ignored is not a problem. D10 weapon(at this level it still counts for something) +4 from str and +2 from power attack means average damage from a hit is 11.5 that is still around 1/3 of the HP of most CR 3 critters on more than few cases much more than that, Crits will have a very high chance of downing someone from full HP. With +7 to hit when power attacking has pretty good chances of hitting the things too.
Now granted as levels rise you do need to jump trough some hoops to keep the damage relevant, but with some tinkering it should never come it that creatures will ignore you because you are not doing enough damage, if they do target someone else it will most likely be because they are more vulnerable and can with relative ease do it.
I never said sword and board wasnt a viable choice i was just stating what i thought would be a better choice For pfs.
I personally like Twf Sword and board but that takes a different lvl of optimization than 2h which in all honesty only requires power attack.
Misunderstanding then on my part I think I got fixated with the "Because you arent a threat."
Oh and we do agree on the fact that it does require more thinking.
Strictly from the PoV of a 'do it all' tank I think you're off to a good start. Tower Shield can be a life saver, since you have the option to use it as a shield, or as a piece providing full cover. You set yourself up in the right spot and you whole party gets full cover. Not too shabby - mixes well with the Tower Shield Specialist Archtype - gets rid of your Attack penalty. Downside is no Weapon Training, so it goes a little against your 'do it all' model. Your offense could only really be improved via feats and magic items.
Something to consider. The Step Up chain is amazing. A fun alternative is the Combat Reflexes/Lunge/Monkey Lunge/Pin Down - you won't see Pin Down until Level 11, but with reach it gives you a nice patch of territory to keep baddies off of your teammates.
Depending on how mobile you need to be, you may not be able to full attack as often as you like making the Vital Strike series a nice option. This chain also works well if you ever have to use a range weapon - enemy is flying, can't keep up with moving opponent, have a chance to 'ping' a foe, etc.
Also, form the perspective of PFS, I'd swap out your dagger for a light hammer, its nice to have blunt damage available if you need it, and you can still throw it if you have to.
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Damn it. I wrote a glorious post and then I had to shut my internet off. Boo.
First, I'd recommend straight fighter. Straight fighter, tank with dual-wield and shields is pretty great.
General Tips:
1.) I, personally, think that you want to be shield-bashing as much as is humanly possible. You have the feats for it, it's fun, and you already have a shield in your hand. Plus, dwarves bullying people is great.
2.) Two-weapon fighting + shield bashing is great.
3.) Given that you'll be swinging with a weapon and a shield, try to avoid feats which only give one of them a benefit (weapon focus, weapon spec, etc), if it's a small benefit.
Specific Build (What I'd Do):
Level 1: Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2: Stand Still
Level 3: Step Up
Level 4: Weapon Focus (...waaaait for it)
Level 5: Improved Bull Rush
Level 6: Improved TWF
Level 7: Shield Slam
Level 8: Lunge, Retrain Weapon Focus to Greater Bull Rush
So let's review what this gives you.
1.) Your damage will be lower than if you'd bought weapon focus, weapon spec, and improved critical. It will not be _much_ lower, though - those feats would affect 2-3 out of your 4-5 attacks per round (depending on haste)
2.) Your AC is going to be spectacular.
3.) Your ability to protect your party is going to be A+.
3a.) If somebody tries to move past you, you can AoO them and stop them from doing it
3b.) If somebody tries to 5 foot step away from you, you can immediate-action 5-foot step up to them. With 3a, this means that there is literally no way somebody can move away from you without eating an AOO short of a full withdraw action.
4.) Your ability to move enemies around the battlefield is going to be incredible.
4a.) 2 free bull rush checks a round from your off-hand attacks
4b.) +4 on those bull-rush checks
4c.) Every time you bull rush people, your allies near them get AOOS
4d.) Thanks to 3, when you move an enemy somewhere, he has very little reasonable way to get away.
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Some people in the above thread have implied that there is no way to make an enemy attack you if you don't do damage. It's a common belief held by the un-clever. Don't believe it - if you take away an enemy's ability to attack other people, he's left with pretty much no choice.
-Cross (If you don't want to follow this approach, I'd still stay fighter. A looot of good feats there.)
Edit: Lunge might be sort of superfluous. You could take Following Step at 8, Step Up and Strike at 9, FEATIMGOINGTOREPLACE at 10, Imp TWF at 11, and Pin Down and replace your level 10 feat with Shield Master. You will basically get to move enemies wherever the hell you want, whenever.)
John-Andre wrote: STR 18 DEX 14 CON 16 (14 +2) INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 5 I think you made a boo-boo in your stats:
STR 18 (17 points)
DEX 14 (5 points)
CON 16 (5 points)
INT 08 (-2 points)
WIS 12 (0 points)
CHA 05 (-4 points)
------------------------
Grand Total: 21 points
Did I miss something?
I suggest looking into improved/greater bullrush, charge through, and improved/greater overrun. It can give you some effect when you need to move around the battlefield. I had a dwarven fighter that mostly ran around knocking people down and keeping them from being able to full round attack my allies. Also, the enemies provoke whenever then stand and greater versions add provoking AoOs to the knock down.
You could also pick up shield bash and shield slam(which requires TWF unfortunately) and bull rush to the face with your heavy steel shield later on.
Another option is Improved Trip and something like Bodyguard/InHarm's Way. Focus on standing near other melee and taking the pressure off them with trips (which provoke AoOs) and increasing their AC or taking the dmg from their attacks.
I highly recommend
Steel Soul
You are especially resistant to magic.
Prerequisites: Dwarf, hardy racial trait.
Benefit: You receive a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. This replaces the normal bonus from the dwarf’s hardy racial trait.
It does not matter how high is your AC if a single spell take you out of the fight.
Also, take some archetype that replace armor training. That ability is still good but not that good for a dwarf.
Archetype recomended: Eapon master
a quick Feat progresion
1. Toughness, Power attack
2. WF
3. Steel soul
4. Ws
5. Step up
6. disruptive
7. Iron will
8. Improved critical hit
9. Following step
10. Step up and strike
11. Lunge
12. Greater WF
your damage needs improvement, weapon spec looks real good. Power attack will scale at 4 as well.
Mobility is big
saves are important too, steel soul is a real gem
Improved unarmed strike to get dragon style - allows charging in and through allies and difficult terrain
or
Overrun line of feats
Or
Dodge and mobility and spring attack
Or
step up feat chain
Or
Barbarian and rage power for scent (awesome ability on a PC) and immediate action move, dip for two
Or
feats to throw your axe and the returning property (not my pick at all)
Or [edit: with your low chr and skills it might not be a great choice]
Get a mount, cavalier/higher lvl ranger and boon companion. Samurai lvls stack for fighter feats but not on your prefered weapons.
War trained horses are a beast -I know PFS is often in small places, if the ultimate equipment book is legal then check out the hosteling armor property.
Or
ultimate equipment has lots of good items for mobility
Bigger Club wrote: Misunderstanding then on my part I think I got fixated with the "Because you arent a threat."
Oh and we do agree on the fact that it does require more thinking.
Twf Shield spec can do good damage i just took his stats + feat selections into the mix and figured he may be a little too late in the running to spec out into the twf shield spec.
I personally love the shielded fighter or brute archetype for twf shield.
And the ranger spec is one of my personal favorites.
Being able to shield slam at lvl 2 is awesome.
Step-up, Following Step chain... so when the thing tries to bypass you you intervene again.
Also dont forget archers and gunslingers make the best tanks of all with the snap shot line.
15 foot threat and sky high dex for combat reflexes.
Just get in the thick of things and make pincushions out of anything capable of movement.
Something wants to run by you its taking at minimum 2 aoos .
Still wondering about this:
Jiggy wrote: John-Andre wrote: STR 18 DEX 14 CON 16 (14 +2) INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 5 I think you made a boo-boo in your stats:
STR 18 (17 points)
DEX 14 (5 points)
CON 16 (5 points)
INT 08 (-2 points)
WIS 12 (0 points)
CHA 05 (-4 points)
------------------------
Grand Total: 21 points
Did I miss something?
Stasiscell wrote: Also dont forget archers and gunslingers make the best tanks of all with the snap shot line.
15 foot threat and sky high dex for combat reflexes.
Just get in the thick of things and make pincushions out of anything capable of movement.
Something wants to run by you its taking at minimum 2 aoos .
You can only make one attack of opportunity per action which provokes(relevant link).
The problem with going TWF is, Urist doesn't qualify for it -- it needs a Dex of 15 according to my CRB. And, you can't shield-bash with a heavy shield. This sort of thing just wouldn't occur to Urist -- he's about as dumb as a box of rocks. Possibly dumber.
Yes, if I got hold of a +2 DEX belt, I'd qualify. Problem is, they're not standard availability in PFS. I need to go through a module that allows access to that belt, in order to get one. I may never get to do that.
I can't find Steel Soul in any of the books I have, and if I don't have it in a book I have, I can't use it -- and the SRD doesn't count.
I'm thinking Step Up will allow me to be a greater nuisance in melee -- if the enemy can't 5-foot step away from me, then he has to continue to deal with the pesky dwarf.
And yes, I did make a mistake with his stats. Don't quite know how to fix them at this point in time.
John-Andre: You can shield bash with a light or heavy shield but not a buckler or tower shield.
How to correct the point buy: 7int 13wis IF they let you fix it. The -2int won't affect your skill points any.
- Gauss
John-Andrea:
If you are level 3 shouldnt you have a fame score of at least 18? (I understand you get a minimum of 2points per session, 3sessions each level = 9sessions = 18fame.) An 18 Fame is a high enough value to purchase any item of 5250gp or less isnt it? Note: I am just learning PFS so I am a bit unclear on the matter.
- Gauss
John-Andre wrote: The problem with going TWF is, Urist doesn't qualify for it -- it needs a Dex of 15 according to my CRB. And, you can't shield-bash with a heavy shield. This sort of thing just wouldn't occur to Urist -- he's about as dumb as a box of rocks. Possibly dumber.
Yes, if I got hold of a +2 DEX belt, I'd qualify. Problem is, they're not standard availability in PFS. I need to go through a module that allows access to that belt, in order to get one. I may never get to do that.
I can't find Steel Soul in any of the books I have, and if I don't have it in a book I have, I can't use it -- and the SRD doesn't count.
I'm thinking Step Up will allow me to be a greater nuisance in melee -- if the enemy can't 5-foot step away from me, then he has to continue to deal with the pesky dwarf.
And yes, I did make a mistake with his stats. Don't quite know how to fix them at this point in time.
Um +2 belts and a lot of things like the whole mithril heavy armour issue you mentned are available in PFS as long as you have the fame for it. In most cases this means by the time you can afford it in gold, you have the fame/prestige for it if you complete your faction and pathfinder missions. Trust me I have a level ten fighter in mithril heavy armour with the two shield route and it is quite easy.
John-Andre wrote: I can't find Steel Soul in any of the books I have, and if I don't have it in a book I have, I can't use it -- and the SRD doesn't count. It's in the Advanced Player's Guide.
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